Do you see an advantage to swapping kitchen and family room then?

Right, but it also means it doesn't make the home unsellable.

I admit my total bias against garage conversions. Sorry about that. That's a good idea. I think if you're going to convert the garage, it would be best converted to a kitchen.

Note: I'd make the dining room larger to about 13' front to back. I think the flex room would still be a decent length around 12'

Your options remind me of what I was facing 20 years ago when I did an overhaul of my kitchen living dining. I put a double pocket door between the living room and kitchen/dining. It was used frequently when the kids were young as we could separate the two rooms for noise. dg When we had guests in living room, and mess or kids in kitchen, or kids in living room watching TV and guests dining visiting in kitchen. Now that my kids are gone the double pocket doors are never closed and I am considering removing them. As for moving the plumbing - in the greater scheme of things, it is not that much expense, and better to get what you want now than to be disappointed or frustrated when all the work has been done.

How about putting kitchen where living room is and living room at entry where kitchen is currently? One kitchen wall backs up to master bath so plumbing should be easier. You can leave open or surround with walls.

Benje's idea is excellent. I've expanded a bit on her idea.

Working off her idea, I moved the door to the laundry room so there's no walking through the kitchen proper to get to the laundry.

I made an L shaped perimeter which would give you lots of storage room. If you're willing to change the windows, that would create even more options for the wall there.

But in the meantime, I moved the fridge and oven to the top of the L and added a small pantry.

I put the dairy sink on the island and there's storage to the left of the sink for dishes.

I have no problem with the size of your garage addition. In fact, we once did something quite similar. Our garage was a basement garage, and the “roof” of it was a concrete deck off the DR. Since it was a 1936 house, the garage was very narrow, plus it was a tandem garage, thus very long. The room ended up being 9 x 31. We put in bookcases above cabinets the entire length of the room, leaving space for a 60” loveseat with a shelf above joint the two abutting cabinets.

The door the this room pretty much divided it in half. At the front end, we had the loveseat, two club chairs and the TV on a chest. The other end had a desk at the end in front of windows facing the back yard, and a table used for homework up against a wall in between the door to the DR and door to the screened in porch which ran along the entire back of the house. It was a terrific room and worked very well for us - lot was very narrow.

i would hire a KD with significant experience designing Kosher kitchens to help you with that design.

benjesbride and cpartist, thank you so much! I'm really liking this idea.

If you sketch out the garage with dimensions, including existing door/window locations we can help refine a plan a bit.

Is your house brick?

do you need 2 fridges or just 2 sinks and 2 dishwashers?

The garage is 12' wide and 19' long. No windows. Do you think it's worth putting windows along the side of the house? Not much of a view....

The house is brick, and so is the wall between current kitchen and garage.

We don't need 2 fridges, but it would be great if we could fit in a double oven! Or 2 separate ones...

Can you get matching brick to close up the garage door opening? Or maybe you're planning to paint the brick?

Yeah, it's already painted, we'll repaint everything the same color.

Yes you want windows in the kitchen area. What direction does the right side of the house face?

Do you have more dishes, pots and pans for dairy or meat? Do you do more meat meals or more dairy?

As soon as I saw the kitchen in the garage, I though how delightful it would be to have French doors where the garage door was.

East, I think.

More meat than dairy.

bpathome-o-my, facing the front yard/street?

To determine dining room size and counter seating, how many people are in your household?

And don't forget holiday meals!

Just had our holiday dinner at our future machatunim with 16 people. She had a very large dining room and it was still a bit tight.

When you have time during daylight, please take a photo of the front of your house showing that whole area labeled "porch." Believe me, you'll want cpartists help when it comes to planning your new kitchen window and front elevation.

We have 2 kids now, but hope to continue growing our family.

Our dining room table is 6.5' long and 9.5' long with the leaves in.

Here's a try at your garage to kitchen conversion. You're about 9" shy of having the minimum width for an island and a peninsula might be a bit tricky to fit in as well.

One of the limitations with crowdsourcing designs on houzz.com is the difficulty communicating existing conditions and understanding their implications for remodelling a space.

For example, without knowing the elevation difference between the garage slab and existing 1st floor and the difference in elevations of the garage ceiling versus the 1st floor ceiling (the brick wall between the living area and garage suggests it was an addition), it's not possible to assess whether the garage floor and ceiling can be practically aligned with their existing 1st floor counterparts. You've also got other considerations like whether it makes economic sense to relocate the kitchen to the garage space given the need to excavate the concrete slab for new plumbing. And these are just a few of many items that need to be considered before going down a design path that isn't practical given the existing conditions and budget.

This is not intended to criticize any of the thoughtful and well-intended design efforts of houzzers, but rather to highlight the need to get a local professional involved who can actually see, measure, and assess the existing conditions and give you a better idea of what makes the most sense before wasting time exploring design options that aren't viable.

These are definitely considerations, I believe they are level but we do need to check out the cost of excavating concrete.

If anyone is reading this and has not read the comment by Charles Ross Homes above, please read their comment now, it is a good one.

benjesbride...I cannot LIKE your comment enough. I had a design background and a very strong understand of color. I teach art and I have very strong opinions. I know my limitations and view myself as someone who knows enough to be dangerous. Because I'm aware of this, when building, I liked to post my stuff here for someone else to 'see' things that maybe I wasn't as I was designing my version of the plans. I got so sick of the condensation and "let a professional do it" answers I quite posting. Sometimes someone just needs someone to look at things differently for them. I was working with a professional, but constantly played with things on my own as well. Just because they're professional doesn't mean they will think of it the way you want it either. Someone doesn't know what they don't know...so if a professional shows them a way that works, they might go with it...not knowing that another way might work as well AND have been a better fit for their lifestyle. Then, after the fact, they discover this other way and are living with regret. I assume people on here are 'researching' and try to comment with a different perspective. (okay, soap box away...but YAY benjesbride) :)

I agree with benje too. I have gotten so much help from this board on my additions and remodel. People have helped validate my ideas, or explore new ones, which really helped me visualize my options before meeting with designers and the architect. It’s so nice to bounce ideas off other people before making big decisions with the professionals. But I agree with Charles Ross also, that AR will need to ultimately engage a designer.

Benjesbride, is the 9'' really a dealbreaker? Seems like not such a huge amount?

If it is, what are your thoughts on doing a galley kitchen with room at one end for a dinette?

Or a U-shaped kitchen like you drew, again leaving room for a table or booth seating...

The 12’9” minimum is recommended for a one person kitchen, so if you like having helpers in The kitchen, even the minimum would feel like a squeeze. Also keep in mind that an island would sacrifice an entire wall for fridge/pantry/ovens.

maybe you can include The utility room in the kitchen space. Since you’re still growing your family, a Banquette would be better for littles than counter seating. A banquette near the front window would be fun or it might fit better in The utility room end.

What do you require in the utility room; water heater, washer, dryer, utility sink?

My kitchen is 11" wide and I can easily have 3 people working in it at the same time, and a 4th bringing in or carrying out food. But then I have 4 walls in my kitchen, and a very narrow (17") island cart in the middle. I cannot tell you how well this works! My kitchen is done in zones - there is the zone at the sink for someone prepping or cleaning up, the zone at the stove and abutting counter for actual food prep and plating up of food, the refrigerator and a short counter are on one wall, and next to that is a long wall that is the salad/dessert prep area. The island can be used for anything, depending on whether a course is being served or cleared.

No, I do NOT have table space in my kitchen, nor do I want it. I do have a small bar stool so one could sit at the end of the small island if necessary. I have a breakfast room on one side of the kitchen and the dining room is on the other. I prefer it this way.

I am a PRO and when I'm working on my own house, I have a couple of friends who are also designers whom I used to bounce ideas off of. I know their taste and I trust them.

But that's a lot different from crowd-sourcing the design of ones home. Even as a designer, I hired a KD - I knew what I wanted, but they knew how to make it all fit and the proper size of cabinets to order - I would have been greatly challenged to do this as it's just not part of my experience. I have hired GC's for remodeling and I have been my own GC. The first GC did a great job; the 2nd was a total disaster as were many of her subs, and yes, researched this, knew she had done tons of work in my neighborhood (where she also lived). Didn't know that because she was a member of the same country club as many in the neighborhood, they would not say anything "bad" about her as she was a fellow CC member!

Being ones own GC can work but only if one has access to very good subs and that is not easy in an economy such as we have today - the good ones are all kept very busy by the GC's who are their regular source of work.

"What do you require in the utility room; water heater, washer, dryer, utility sink?"

Yes to all the above, plus we would like to put our full-size freezer in there.

Anglo - I agree with you that 11' kitchens are very hardworking. Keep in mind that A R needs a kosher kitchen, requiring a bit more space. I'm not sure if your comment above is in direct response to my comment about 12'9", so I thought I'd clarify for A R and hopefully return the thread to discussing her kitchen...

A R: Just so you know how I arrived at the 12'9" minimum, these are National Kitchen and Bath Association guideline minimums:

26" perimeter counter

42" minimum aisle for a one person kitchen

26" base cabinet + 2 inch counter overhang

1/2" cover panel

15" counter height seating overhang

44" walk past counter seating width

12'9"

AR - Would you be interested in just putting a all-fridge and all freezer in the kitchen proper? I'm just trying to think through freeing up space for an eating area in the kitchen.

It's not a bad idea but we already have the full size freezer and it's white, I want to buy stainless steel for the kitchen appliances. Also I'd like the extra freezer space.

Benjiesbride, an ideal Kosher kitchen has two sinks, two stoves, two refrigerators, two dishwashers. Many families who keep Kosher don't have the luxury of such space, especially in an existing house, not a new-build or entire new-extension. Yes, one would have to adapt in my kitchen, but you made no statement that 11" was too small for a Kosher kitchen, just for any kitchens.

Anglo - Ugh. I said one needs 12'9" for a kitchen with a standard island with counter seating. Your tone seems like you're arguing with me or pointing out a mistake I made, but I honestly don't know what about. I make mistakes all. day. long. so I don't doubt it. I just wish I knew what it was.

ETA: Anglo - I think you just missed some of the conversation up thread:

Me (2 days ago) : Here's a try at your garage to kitchen conversion. You're about 9" shy of having the minimum width for an island and a peninsula might be a bit tricky to fit in as well.

A G (5 hours ago): Benjesbride, is the 9'' really a dealbreaker? Seems like not such a huge amount?

Me (4 hours ago): The 12’9” minimum is recommended for a one person kitchen, so if you like having helpers in The kitchen, even the minimum would feel like a squeeze. Also keep in mind that an island would sacrifice an entire wall for fridge/pantry/ovens.

Do you need all the flex room? I'd break into the flex room to give yourself a proper kitchen with enough width. You can probably also add a few chairs in the flex room for seating.

I'm also theoretically fine with that, but it would be knocking down a brick wall to gain a few feet, not sure the cost would justify?

With the flex room and old garage you have 20' 9". That is plenty for an island.

That's basically 249". You need 25.5" for perimeter counters which leaves you with 223.5"

Because you have basically 2 kitchens in 1, you'll need 48" wide aisles. So that will leave you 175.5"

A standard island with seating is 42" deep which will leave you with 133.5" or 11' 1.5".

Oh, you mean drop the flex room completely? That also gives me an open kitchen which I don't like...

AR-

I am not sure why you need a "dinette", and I do not know why you need counter seating either, it takes up valuable space in the kitchen that can be used for other things. Why not eat in the dining room, it is right there.

And apropos of the dining room, is an 8 seater dining room really adequate for you? Do you entertain for the Sabbath and holidays?

Maybe you need to go back to the drawing board with an architect and/or kitchen designer and forget the counter seating and dinette and give yourself a larger dining room.

Many Orthodox Jewish people actually do a lot of their entertaining around the Sabbath and holiday meals and spend a lot of time at the dinner table (yum!) and being crowded is not a good thing at all. In addition to the table you might also want some space for a buffet to hold tablecloths, silver, extra serving pieces, etc.

And maybe you have some religion classes/lecture in your house and the dining room is a perfect place,, and your children can do homework with friends around that table (and you can lend an ear from the kitchen.) Oh, and on that note, please be sure the room has adequate electrical outlets and wifi access. A too small table just won't work.

Maybe a smaller family room will net you a larger dining room, and still get your guest room in the family room.

A designer can get you some very clever ways to incorporate a guest bed in the family room, such as a murphy bed, a convertible, or a day bed.

I would excruciatingly space plan your garage. Do you need an additional freezer and storage in there to kosher food because you live far from stores that hold kosher food? Do you need an additional stove and dishwasher in there for Passover? Storage in there for Passover dishes and pots?

Think about all these things, everything you could possible need and want.

And how you will age in that house as well.

When you are 75 you might not want to carry a heavy crock pot in from the garage into the kitchen.

Think about planning a place for a multi-shelf metal cart in the garage or someplace from which things can be wheeled into the kitchen.

Efficient (for your purposes) storage is more important than three eating areas in the house, counter, dinette and dining room.

A quick cuppa can be had in the kitchen with one chair at the counter or pull out cutting board.

I agree with you about a non-open concept kitchen.

Oh, you mean drop the flex room completely? That also gives me an open kitchen which I don't like...

No it doesn't! Only if you open up the flex room and I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting combining the flex room with the kitchen to make a larger kitchen.

Ohhhh ok I see. We would mainly be using the flex room as a playroom and I don't want the toys to always be spreading into the kitchen...

AR there are ways to build in storage that corrals the toys. Also you might be able to add pocket doors between the two rooms. You really do need to sit down with a real architect to create a plan that will work for you and your family. Not a draftsman.

> Benjesbride, is the 9'' really a dealbreaker? Seems like not such a huge amount?

AR, Benje is being ENORMOUSLY generous to say 12'9" is the minimum to fit an island with seating. I don't typically suggest islands with seating on the long side of the island unless the room is 14' or deeper because the aisles are super cramped otherwise. Unless you are only ever in the kitchen alone, to me, the bare minimum aisles are flat-out stressful. It sort feels as if the room is fighting you whenever you try to move around -- something or someone is ALWAYS in your way. I'm always knocking into random handles, corners, etc. Benje is not wrong that those bare minimum aisle widths technically work -- as in, it is possible to use the aisle to move from point A to point B -- but that doesn't mean the aisles are pleasant or allow for easy movement.

To put it in more universal terms, think about clothes. Going with the bare minimum clearances in a kitchen is sort of like an average-sized person shoving herself into an extra small mini dress. In the extra small mini dress, breathing's not easy, nor is sitting, and you can't raise your arms, but the dress is on and zipped and so far hasn't split at the seams. Technically, your bits are juuuust covered, and that's about as much as your outfit has going for it. That's what the bare minimum is.

Then picture if someone saw you mincing around in this tiny dress and said, "What if we shaved 9 more inches off?"

That is why you can't shave off 9" from 12'9". Your kitchen will be arrested for public indecency.

Lol Jillius, thanks for your comment! We will not be doing an island. We are working with a KD now and I'll get back to you guys with the plans!

If you don't have a ton of dairy dishes, maybe get a dishwasher drawer to give yourself some more cabinet space: https://www.fisherpaykel.com/us/kitchen/dish-washers/dishdrawer/24-single-dishdrawer2.DD24SCHTX9_N.html

Any thoughts?