Bosch Dishwashers don't need air gaps?
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5 years ago
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Double Drawer Dishwasher with integrated air gap / one-way valve?
Comments (21)What Miele did not tell people is the fact that there are two different types of Air Gaps described in both ANSI (American National Standard Institue)/ASSE (American Society of Sanitatary Engineering) 1006 / AMAM (Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers) DW-2PR-1986 (Section 3.1.1 Inlet Air Gap & 3.1.2 Drain Air Gap) and in 2010 California Plumbing Code (Section 203.0 Airgap, Drainage & Airgap, Water Distribution). They are for different purposes to comply to with the Codes. Inlet Air Gap is for âÂÂprevents reverse flow from the dishwasher to the house water supplyâ per ASSE 1006-1986 Section 3.1.1 Inlet Air Gap. Water Distribution Airgap is for âÂÂunobstructed vertical distance through the free atmosphere between the lowest opening from any pipe or faucet conveying potable water to the flood-level rim of any tank, vat, or fixtureâ per 2010 CPC 603.2.1 & 603.3.7. Drain Air Gap is for âÂÂprevents reverse flow from the house drain plumbing to the dishwasherâ per ASSE 1006-1986 Section 3.1.2 Drain Air Gap. Drainage Airgap is for âÂÂunobstructed vertical distance through free atmosphere between the lowest opening from any pipe, plumbing fixture, appliance, or appurtenance conveying waste to the flood-level rim of the receptorâ per 2010 CPC 603.2.1 & 603.3.7. MieleâÂÂs âÂÂinternal air gap of greater than 1 inch on the potable water supplyâ satisfies requirements in ASSE 1006-1986 Section 3.1.1 and in 2010 California Plumbing Code 603.2.1 & 603.3.7., but its âÂÂinternal check valve and air break on the waste dischargeâ does not satisfy requirements in ASSE 1006-1986 Section 3.1.2 and 2010 California Plumbing Code 807.4, because there is not such option described within the sections; in fact, it requires âÂÂthe use of an approved dishwasher airgap fitting on the discharge side of the dishwashing machineâÂÂ, which we can find the listing standard in Chapter 14âÂÂs Table 14-1 of 2010 California Plumbing Code âÂÂDrain Air Gaps for Domestic Dishwasher Applicationsâ per ASSE 1021-2001 !!!!! The provision in regards to domestic dishwashing machine has been published in Uniform Plumbing Code and/or California Plumbing Code for at least 28 years (the oldest version I found is 1982 Uniform Plumbing Code). The entire sectionâÂÂs text has never changed/revised with exactly the same words from first alphabet to the last alphabet including punctuation....See Moredishwasher install with drain below floor - no air gap?
Comments (7)Yes, frodo here above, and live_wire_oak in the other thread (linked to above) got it right. -- 99.9% right. I'll add a bit of context, based on my knowledge of DWV plumbing. I am happy to share and to read feedback, and I don't mind plumbers telling me more.. An indirect connection (before _Any_ P trap, not just the sink's P trap) lets air in or out, preventing the draining water from sucking open either the P trap or the DW's base (its "sump") which is supposed to have some standing water left in it. ((Note that doing the opposite would have the same effect as two P traps in series which is disallowed)). An indirect connection is a set up that lets the drain gurgle: it mixes with room air. It can look like a standpipe (that looks like your clothes washing machine's standpipe) or it can look like some other set up that looks_different but does the_same thing. This is why your DW makes gurgling noises in the kitchen drain pipe when it drains: it is pumping water into the drain prior to the P trap, so you hear it. It is not allowed to connect the DW drain to your plumbing behind a P trap, it must be in front of a P trap. You Are allowed to send the DW drain hose from an Air Gap directly to the kitchen drain without going through the garbage disposal first. The option to route through a disposer is one optional route. It is one option out of a very limited number of options. A "High Loop" brings the DW drain hose to the house plumbing before the sink P trap also, and in the sink drain is where the gurgling / air-mixing takes place, and that is where you will hear it. A dishwasher _Wye or _Tee is the connection part usually used but any Wye will do. A third option is if you install a separate stand pipe like a laundry standpipe: then that means a separate P trap which then presents other (minor) challenges, since it has to be connected with the right venting behind the P trap; this is venting for sewer gases (not room air venting) which is the usual meaning of venting when plumbers talk to plumbers. When a P trap is under the floor, the drop may be too far and the P trap may self-siphon because the fast moving (falling) water will all slide out. That is inertia because of the fall. However, it is not disallowed, it just calls for a professional plumber or a highly knowledgeable homeowner. (So yes, sometimes a P trap in a basement for a fixture on the first floor can be good; e.g. if it is right under the floor, up against the basement ceiling, and with the right venting too!) As live_wire_oak said in the other thread, this is all part of the plumbing code for health and safety reasons. Sewer gases cannot be allowed to enter a house, so P traps which could siphon themselves out are disallowed, and this is all an exercise in 3-D geometry including the drain diameter. Plumbers spend Years learning this and writing exams, so don't let a plumbing apprentice design your DWV plumbing, and double-check everything even if you think your plumber has all the answers, as they do make mistakes too. I have seen this more than once. The 3D thinking involved is complex, even for a new building where everything is built as a system all at once, but even more-so for a reno or remodel where the "system" is not all visible and sometimes not even fully understood. Above I mentioned that you would hear the DW drain gurgling. If one built a standpipe that got its air from up high in the dropped ceiling, the gurgling noise would be minimized. It would be a tall pipe with a Wye in it to receive the DW hose. HTH -david...See MoreAir gap gurgles like crazy when dishwasher runs - should it?
Comments (17)zl700l, I don't believe there would be anything in a dishwasher that would be sufficient to act as an effective p-trap and I do believe you are basically bathing the dishes in your dishwasher in sewer gas, not to mention airbourne bacteria. The explosion risk of the methane entering the dishwasher is not to be ignored either, I am sure there is plenty of potential ignition sources in there to be of concern, moreover, people die in homes infiltrated by sewer gas. The risk is not to be scoffed at. Moreover, it's just common sense- the practice is dangerous and illegal, makes your house unmarketable and subject to being condemned or remediation orders, and just a bad idea. We're talking about a little gurgling water, not freeway noises. I like hearing the dishwasher when it drains because a) I know it's working and how far along it is, and b) having it drain into the p-trap means that it's charging it (keeping it full, avoiding gas infiltrations) and the dishwasher detergent going through the trap keeps it clean and smelling decent. As the the 'banjo' vs 'my house is bigger than yours' contest, I don't believe in being rude as it were but I believe it's not a question of how much money someone has, but how much common sense /stubbornness they have....See MoreAir gap needed for Whirlpool dishwasher?
Comments (11)What I mean about water flowing onto the floor is that during the cycle, water leaks out and makes a puddle on the floor in front of the DW. When I unload the dishwasher, I notice there there is standing water (a small amount) at the bottom, and so I remove the filters and clean them. When this first started happening, I noticed a very small amount of food debris on the filters, and so I cleaned them and ran the drain cycle again, which removed most, but not all, of the water under the main filter at the bottom. Once I started making sure that the dishes were reasonably clean before I loaded the DW, I have not had a problem with the puddles, but I still run the drain cycle at the end of each washing. The DW says that it is okay to leave small amounts of food on the dishes, but I have not found this to be the case. I don't completely wash the dishes before loading them, but I do scrub them to remove almost all of the food or whatever might be left on them. I have a Bosch DW in L.A., and I have no problems with it, except that I have to use fragrance free DW pods because otherwise it leaves unpleasant scents on the dishes which interferes with the taste of the food. I use Method Dishwasher Packs, and this gets the dishes as clean as Cascade does and does not leave the nauseating scent that Cascade does. I can use Cascade in the Whirlpool, and it will not leave the scent. If I use Cascade in the Bosch, I have to run an additional rinse cycle at the end, but it is just easier to use Method instead....See More
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