To whom are you speaking, JDS?

It's presumptuous to assume someone is wealthy and rude to order them off the forum.

You can assemble details from homes listed on Zillow, etc. for Martha's Vineyard.

I have designed houses and an airport on the Cape and Islands during 50 years of architectural practice. Don't tell me what an architect is for. I worked with Patrick Ahern before he was licensed. When I joined the GW 11 years ago it was dominated by contractors who didn't like architects. Has the new GW been taken over by interior decorators?

Help the OP or leave him alone. He has the same right to ask for advice as anyone else.

Patrick Ahern is a wonderfully talented architect. I'd love to hire him!

Agree Diana.........what's NOT to love : )

The GW survived for decades prohibiting business use of the forum. If you offered services your membership was automatically terminated. Today it is mostly about money - hire me, buy this. It's making some a lot of money but it is slowly destroying the forum for the old members who came here to help people. When the owners stop posting the "PROs" will be talking to each other.

For anyone in need of free professional advice I advise you to turn on "messages" In your profile and to not select multiple forums especially "Design Dilemma"

So who started GW? Would it be possible to start a new site that reflects the aims of the original GW? Houzz has certainly turned into a huge money-maker. My biggest complaint is that they tag your photos with the wrong information.

One CAN build a smaller house on the Vineyard if one already owns the land. If one must buy the land, it doesn't make sense from a re-sale standpoint. I know full well that the house we rent will be sold in the next few years. It's on a double lot, in Edgartown village, on a quiet street. It will be a total tear-down, even though the house has much charm. But it will probably sell for between 2.5 and 3 million for the big lot, and it being in the village. Then someone will spend at least that much to build a house on the lot.

The prices of real estate here are ridiculous. I so wish we could have afforded to buy something in Edgartown when we sold our share of property on Chappaquiddick 35 years ago. We didn't want to be on Chappy - it was just too inconvenient with children at that time and would be now with grandchildren. But even then, we could not find anything we could afford to buy unless it was well outside the village.

Smaller houses are built on other parts of the island but construction costs are very high here due to all materials having to come over by ferry.

Patrick Ahearn is a very gifted architect in that he can design a house for a historic 18th century whaling village, and when it is built and landscaped (usually by Donoroma, who has enormous landscape materials that look like they were planted 20 years ago), it will be hard to tell what is old and what is new. Most people are very grateful for this - the entire village could have had its charm destroyed by poorly designed new houses.

The question then is: is Kevin worthy? Should he be run out of the Vinyard as well as the forum?

I think Kevin is worthy of hiring Patrick Ahearn. For what it's worth, I think everyone is worthy of hiring Patrick Ahearn. An for anyone reading that is contemplating preconceived plans, throw those canned plans away and give Patrick a call.

Thank you all very much

We should shut the forum down and replace it with ads for architects and decorators. Oh right, that’s Houzz and the forum is more like it every day.

Hi Kevin! I'm jealous of your MV location; one of my favorite places on the planet. Forgive the late-to-the-party comment, but can you explain the height of the roof line? Is this a three-story home with no windows on the third level, or is there another reason the roof line seems so high? My concern with the facade as currently rendered is that the roof expanse feels like it takes over the whole house. If you look at some of the other photos people have posted in this thread of MV homes, the difference in height between the 2nd level dormers and the roof is not nearly as great as what your rendering shows. Feels out of scale to me and is dwarfing the dormers. Either make the dormers larger or lower the height of the roof. One woman's opinion.

Is the house especially deep that is forcing you into some very un-cottagey choices? I think you might benefit from reading the McMansion Hell blog.

One thing to absorb is the decent into McMansion by adding unsuitable elements from other styles. Those nonsensical additions, along with the primary obsession of a floor plan over an integrated design that considers the Exterior at the same time as the Interior is being developed starts the road to Hell.

Well. To JDS point above: Hundreds of thousands of folks have gotten help on these pages. It is one thing to want a kitchen layout critique ... a bit of guidance on a furniture arrangement. Even a lousy regurgited stock house plan! But a "community" can't even begin to design a great house. .... let alone one in this locale .

Green Designs summed it up perfectly. You get a disciplined architect with the "stones" to tell you no when you need to hear that word.

The shortest distance between where you are and where you want to

go is a straight line. Maybe directly to Ahern .

I've just re-read this entire thread and I'm not seeing anywhere any "Pro" is soliciting work of any kind. I'm an interior designer. Perhaps I should use the past tense- I WAS an interior designer! At nearly 75, I only do work for immediate family and very close friends who have been clients in the past. Even then, only small jobs. I have never offered my services on GW as I'm far too old to do so, and not in good health.

I've also never seen others solicit work. On Houzz, absolutely! But not on GW. What I have seen is pros willing to share their years of experience with those posting to these forums. For ZERO monetary compensation.

Ask cpartist if her house turned out well. That thread is probably the longest running design discussion at the GW. II could name others but most are no longer here.

The forum has changed from a place to find architectural design help to a place to hire it. It’s all advertising

I went to design school when it took 3.5 years of graduate school and a 5 day exam to get a license. It was considered unethical for an architect to advertise or attempt to take a project from another architect. I have never asked for a fee from a GW member nor will I.

Patrick and I worked for Ben Thompson when he did Faneuil Hall Marketplace in Boston. He is very talented and is a good guy but he doesn’t have any magic powers; he works out his designs one at a time like any other experienced architect and his Shingle Style inspirations and expertise come from the same places as mine The difference is he has some seriously good help and I’m sure his fees reflect that.

All you know about Kevin is his porch columns are a bit spindly and the roof ridge is high. That’s nothing to turn your nose up at. The Shingle Style contains Victorian (Queen Anne), Colonial Revival and Classical elements. It didn’t have a name until Scully wrote about it many years later. It has never had a fixed reference like Greek Revival.

So get off your high horse and try to help a stranger.

You could at least have allowed Kevin to post his other elevations and plans before telling him the design was not worthy of the Vinyard. You should all be ashamed of your comments including Mark.

JDS

I did NOT say it wasn't worthy of the Vineyard. I said a home ( new build in this instance, of considerable size ) ) on the Vineyard.......anywhere for that matter, is best not designed in/via a community of uneducated opinion ( in a vacuum I might add ) , and IF you can afford a home on the Vineyard? Yes.........you can afford to engage a pro to design it. A heck of a lot better than trying to yank a regurgitated stock plan into submission, there or anywhere for that matter. As someone who worked for Ahern? I'd think you'd agree on that.

You don’t pay attention to what others say. Patrick was junior to me at his first job. I never worked for him.

Most of you made a snap judgement that Kevin’s design was not worth improving. and that no one in the forum was qualified to help him do that. It is you who is not qualified to trash his house and hijack the thread.

For crying out loud, if there's any hijacking being done here, it's not by those suggesting that Kevin might benefit from an architect. That's just a common sense suggestion for someone about to make a multi-million dollar investment.

No one here has any idea what his actual house plan is, whether it's good, bad or indifferent, whether it's suited to his site, or whether it will be in keeping with the surrounding environment. Without more information, there's not much concrete advice to be given. If Kevin chooses to provide more information, perhaps folks can make suggestions, but, given the flow of incorrect information and highly personalized advice that I see here all the time, he'd still be wise to take his thoughts (and any of ours that he likes) to someone who actually knows the local site and environment better than a bunch of random strangers.

This "community" can't even begin to design a great house. .... let alone one in this locale .

Have you looked at the 420 homes listed on MV? Many are not great architectural prize winners. That aside, it would be quite possible for those on this board to help design an excellent quality home with exterior and interior likely better than most.

Thank you Dan; I share your confidence in the members regardless of the expensive and snobby nature of the location because I have seen it done for far worse house designs.

I thought this house had promise and the OP was willing to collaborate. Its the kind of design opportunity that brings me here. I see no reason or need to assume the other elevations would be unacceptable before seeing them.

Kevin, I hope you will return, perhaps starting a new thread,.

JDS has the patience of a saint regarding Kevin's design. As someone in design/build, I'm always glad to hear of home owners wanting to design their own house like I did 21 years ago out of necessity when the architect I wanted to hire required a $100K retainer (when my total construction budget was $250K).

Some of my favorite houses are owner designed like this one in Alabama:

And Kevin's design is quite subpar especially since it has gone through several iterations already. I hope Kevin will do some learning of architecture if he wants to proceed on his own; or be open to get professional help.

Kevin, our home built in the 50's, designed by a very good and imaginative architect who took the cape concept "out of the box", was BUILT, and I mean built to last generations. Craftsmen who came in were in awe. The architecture (cape inspired) was not designed to "wow" at first glance from the front, and this was in fact, one of the enduring qualities of the home, but when you got in it, and realized how it connected to the property (oriented to the back toward the river), along with the unique angles and sweeping windows that were incorporated along the back and sides (not traditional cape cod, but with an architectural license to form a union with style, space and property), it became a true gem. We were just honored to be stewards of the land and this historical structure for 14 years (and when we down-sized, it sold in a weekend.. standard in the area market of $Million + homes was 6-18 months, to someone who had been waiting for years for just this....there is a market for quality... did I mention last for generations?) I'd take quality craftsmanship, a home that loves it's environment, perhaps a more subtle facade but with a few unique but delightful surprises in architecture, and marriage to the land over the standard build any day.

JDS, your clients are very fortunate to have an architect so willing to collaborate. I can well imagine how difficult that must be to manage.

Thanks Rita, I don't know any other way to design a house.

Now that I am in my office I would like to respond to some of the earlier comments.

There are at least a dozen architects practicing on the Vineyard so choosing one should be based on looking at their work online and interviews not on their fame.

The Vineyard is big and some of the best areas are not in towns. Town and coast lots are expensive but there are 3 acre house lots in Aquinnah and West Tisbury for sale for $374,000 and $495,000 respectively.

There is usually no cost premium for lumber and other materials for a general contractor. Cash customers might pay a 4% premium.

Skilled carpenters are expensive and in short supply in all of eastern Massachusetts but laborer are not.

Not everything on the Vineyard is Colonial Revival and Shingle Style although it is a post Victorian style favored by the super wealthy. The peak period of whaling was the peak period of the Greek Revival style but Edgartown has seen several hundred years of architectural styles so I wouldn't want to be on its historic preservation board. There is no predominant style for the interior of the island other than gabled roofs and cedar shingles similar to the OP's design.

Unless the OP is in an historic district he should not be intimidated by history or what the wealthy like to build.

Hutker Architects

This morning, I was driving from Edgartown to the Vineyard hospital which is between Oak Bluffs and Vineyard Haven. While driving, I realized that we may have done Kevin a grave disservice. We assumed that he was building a 2nd home on the Vineyard, Perhaps he is not - perhaps this is his one and only home.

On the road between the Vineyard Haven Rd and the road on which the hospital is, I passed innumerable homes that I'm pretty sure are owned and lived in by year 'round residents. They were all shapes and sizes, some nicely designed, some just awful. We're they in a "fashionable" summer-people neighborhood? No! These were houses lived in by people who live and work on the Vineyard. Yes, they DO cost more than a similar house off-Island, but they are far from being million dollar houses. In fact, I would bet that many were built by the people who live in them, "built" as in "with their own hands".

If this is what Kevin is building, then he should build what he likes and what will pass a building permit. When the house is not in the historic district of a town, there is no Historic board to pass muster on the house. These boards can be VERY picky, and sometimes who ones architect is can make or break the approval.

Kevin, I'm sorry I jumped on the bandwagon, assuming this is a summer home. If it is not, I apologize; if it is, do take the advice offered.

Well...we haven't heard from Kevin and he may have left the room.

Certainly he, and all posters, are free to do whatever they choose to do. No one has any doubts about that.

But Kevin asked, "...Any other suggestions?..."

And there have been some useful and constructive suggestions.

When one only posts an elevation, it's challenging to give constructive and useful comments, because elevations are often very misleading. They have no depth or scale, since they appear only two-dimensional. Perspectives are always better, but they are seldom provided, especially by drafters and CAD drivers.

Kevin's elevation shows a huge roof, out of scale and proportion with the rest of the house, and certainly not typical of a Cape Cod.

Often when one sees such a roof, it's due to a very deep or "fat" plan, for which a very large roof is the easiest and most frequent solution, especially by drafters and CAD drivers.

Since floor plans and exterior elevations are inextricably linked together (what happens with one directly affects the other), and since many drafters and CAD drivers always work first with floor plans...my suggestion to Kevin, if he is still looking for suggestions to improve the exterior of his house...is to go back and do some further exploration of the floor plan to see what is possible to change the roof to a smaller and more proportional form.

Kevin...are you still there...?

Well I guess we can start working on the plan.

As a suggestion for alternatives to Kevin's posts on the porch I'm putting forward those in this picture. I'd go for light blue ceiling instead of varnished wood but that's down the road when trim color is discussed.

There seems to be a misunderstanding about historic buildings in Edgartown.

Most of the buildings in the Historic District were built in the 19th century not the 18th century.

"Between 1835 and 1845 alone, 110 whaling captains built homes and lived in Edgartown."

"Located on the island of Martha's Vineyard, the Edgartown Harbor Village Historic District covers an area of about 150 acres and contains approximately 500 buildings, exhibiting a mix of commercial, residential and industrial land uses. The vast majority of the district's buildings are wood-frame houses of the 19th and early 20th centuries designed by local builders and carpenters, as well as shipbuilders and whaling captains. Only five masonry buildings exist in the district, all of which are constructed of red brick. Architectural styles that are well-represented include vernacular timber-frame houses and cottages, the Federal style and the Greek Revival style. Less common, but equally significant are examples of later styles such as the Italianate, Second Empire, Queen Anne, Colonial Revival and Arts and Crafts. "

If someone wanted to build a typical house from the peak whaling period, it would be Greek Revival rather than the later Shingle Style and Colonial Revival styles of Patrick Ahearn's work. But a Greek Revival house would look very much out of place inland so you could choose from the other 7 historic district styles which includes the Victorian Queen Anne style and what we call Craftsman. I vote for the vernacular (i.e. common regional building style) frame houses perhaps with a little Victorian or Classical detailing to dress it up.

Two of my favorite Cape Cod houses are on two of the four corners at the corner of School Street and Cooke Street. One is quite old and the other an even older one c1680-1730, has had major restoration work in the past two years - They're both charming.

For 3 summers, we rented a Cape on Planting Field Way that is said to be the oldest house in Edgartown. It was very charming, but my tall husband banged his head on the bathroom door frame daily, and my teenage son, also tall and with huge feet, struggled with the narrow treads on the steep stairs.

Part of the charm of Edgartown is the variety of styles of houses built at different periods over the years. It's not like Williamsburg or Plymouth Plantation, which are all in a narrow time frame and nothing has ever changed. This is still a living town with real people living in their homes. Only a few houses were more recently built in inappropriate styles ( the gawd-awful modular rancher Uncle Teddy built on S Water, as his antique house on N Water was drafty and expensive to heat in the winter - he always said he "went South" for the winter!). It was sold by his heirs and a lovely, large appropriate house took its place, to the great relief of the neighbors.

While the houses have been built piecemeal over the past 250 years, the village itself was founded in the 17th century and the Old Whaling Church ( site of many a summer wedding!) is 18th century. I think it's one of the prettiest places in the country. I'm always seeing something I had not previously noticed.

"Trust me, Edgartown has dozens of Capes and they have plenty of character without resorting to Victorian front porches! Just do some driving around and take some photos. Of hire Vineyard architect, Patrick Ahrean. He is a master at designing authentic exteriors of houses with the more contemporary interiors that his clients want."

The only thing "unauthentic" (if that is your standard of judgement) about Kevin's house was his inaccurate use of the term "Cape Cod" for a modest vernacular house. Otherwise, the house was as worthy of our consideration as any in the precious historic district of Edgartown or the pretentious ones designed by Vineyard architects.

JDS, I take it you like neither Edgartown nor Patrick Ahrean! While I might agree that some of the enormous shingle-style houses built down Katama, either on the Edgartown side or on Chappy, might fall into that category, it could also be argued that very large shingle-style houses have been being built as summer residences for a large extended family for over 100 years.

I do consider our historic district very "precious" as it works very hard at preserving the heritage and preventing any structure that would be out of character for the area. When one sees what has happened in so many other places, it is indeed a blessing.

You have again missed the point. I have nothing against Edgartown and like Patrick enough to spell his name right.

I think you are so focused on your own narrow point of view that you are unable to focus on the needs of those who ask for advice.

I’m glad you are back JDS. You have been on GW longer than I have and I’ve been here since at least 2004. I learned so much from you. We all did. GW was a fun place to hang out...a truly intimate and mostly friendly forum that felt like we were hanging out with friends. No topic was off limits and members were rarely shut down.

i think those days are over...but thanks for trying.

Typing on an iPad is not easy for me! Many misspellings of names and words! I DO know how his name is spelled.

Since you believe I have "missed the point", then perhaps you might try to communicate it more clearly. You referred to Edgartown as my "precious" town, and then criticized much of the work done by local architects here. What did I miss?

JDS did not criticize the work of any architects on the Vineyard. He just pointed out that there were multiple ways of designing an appropriate house on that island. I appreciated learning about the history of the area's architecture and its origins in the Greek Revival style. I get the sense JDS is deeply rooted to that part of the country and knows a great deal more than the average admirer of the latest fashion among the wealthy of the day.

I think Patrick Ahearn's eclectic approach to designing summer homes is very much in keeping with Robert A.M. Stern's work on Long Island. Eye candy for sure. But not the only way to design a house on Martha's Vineyard.

I hope Kevin comes back. I would love to hear more about what he would like to build on his piece of that storied summer paradise.

Thanks ILoveRed; did you ever build that wonderful house? The forum seems to have taken a turn for the worse when members were allowed to advertise their commercial status. Remember when business use of the forum would have cost you your membership and put a picture of the tea cups ride on your screen? Did you know the PRO badge turns green when you've filled out all of your profile and have 3 reviews, etc.? You get rewards for supporting the new business model. Of course, in the old days the contractors hated architects and that seems to be coming back. MightyAnvil got kicked around a bit but Renovator 8 didn't. Its odd that Corbu2 wasn't pegged as an architect.

Rita, thanks for paying attention; I appreciate it. The historic architecture of Edgartown looks wild and crazy compared to Nantucket, however, the variety of architecture on the Vineyard is impressive. I took some French friends through the historic district and it felt like a final exam in architectural history. Of course, they didn't think the 1700's were very old. Unfortunately, the very early buildings have been lost. Vacation houses arrived in the 20's. Ahearn's favorite style is the Shingle Style and its the most eclectic style of all, allowing much room for personal expression and he makes good use of it.

I found Kevin's house at 8 Chambers Way, Edgartown. I hope he comes back to claim it someday.

JDS..I did build that house and have since sold it and we are now building my second GW house..a shingle style house! Your dogged love for shingle style got to me I think. Building on a lake and pretending it’s the East coast. I remember your many monikers but not Corbu2. You stubbornly stuck around (with occasional breaks) as our only architect, despite the mean spirited quote at the top of the page. Now we have many...architects I mean. Overall it’s a good thing..I think.

The spirit of the old GW forums is gone. Everyone sat down together on Friday night in front of the computer with a beer or a glass of wine and it was like we were getting together with friends. Except for the occasional tea cup ride which I never took because I was well behaved. Money seems to ruin most things.

I didn't keep Corbu2 for long; it was too heavy a burden.

In the 70's I worked for Ben Thompson and we designed a hotel in Abu Dhabi. On a visit there Ben was driven to a banquet by the Finance Minister. He was told that the king might join them and that the king had been told Ben was the world's greatest living architect. He was also told that he was not to say anything. Ben told us he was relieved because he had no idea what the world's greatest architect would say.

JDS, I thoroughly enjoyed your posts in this thread and believe you are spot on with your viewpoints. This forum is filled with too many PROS and architects that are so rude and unhelpful. It blows my mind that they devote so much time to come on here just to belittle those seeking guidance. I cringe when the same 2 usual architects on here provide their entirely predictable daily drizzle of unfunny negativity. How about humble and helpful, rather than obnoxious, rude, and almighty? There are several threads now in just the past few months where the OP decides its better to vanish than sort through the useless and unnecessary nonsense that gets slung around.

To be fair, of the practicing architects still on the forum, I've never found ARG to be anything but helpful and considerate. The same is true of Mark even though I think he is sometimes too quick to tell people they need an architect. However, I've never disagreed with that advice until this thread. It should also be noted that architects on the forum have been most critical of the work of architects who have provided poor services for the original poster. The level of advice here would suffer horribly without architects on the forum so be careful what you wish for.

I believe identifying members as PROs and using company names or professional titles is damaging to the discourse. When appropriate, I tell people I'm an architect but I try to avoid anything that might suggest I'm willing to act in a professional capacity. There's a difference in expectations for the services of a "professional" and a "member of a profession".

Some PROs have seemed puzzled when I say they are offering their services for money. I don't see how there could be any other interpretation when they label themselves as professionals and/or list their company names.

JDS - It sounds like your beef is with Houzz and not any of the PROs. Houzz encourages the tag and, for me, I add ", Architect" so I do not get inquiries to paint someones walls in their new home (and i've gotten one).

I do not solicit work for myself in any of these threads, I feel it would be professionally unethical. Recently I was asked flat out in a thread if I would work on a project for them. I felt it best if I answered in the thread instead of private messaging the person, leaving other in the thread wondering what my answer was or why I did not respond. My response was along the lines of that I would love to but an architect closer to them would be more appropriate, but if no one could be found to contact me privately.

Without the "PRO" or any other identifying label one is left to make assumptions. At one point a while back I thought, "Wow, that JDS, she sure sketches nice for an young amateur"; see how wrong one can be.

I know that I'm not part of this conversation, but I as a relatively new poster and homeowner, I concur with taconichills that there are a couple of PROS (not architects, but designers) who seem to relish interjecting incredibly snarky comments in as many conversations as they can. It's really unfortunate. They both possess a lot of knowledge, but they drive away new members right and left.

I would like to see the PRO designation go away. It ends up creating two tiers of users: an "In" group and an "out" group.

Sneetches?

Gesundheit...!

Dr. Seuss