How many hours of direct sun is it getting? Also, some say that organic fertilizer in a container is worthless. What fertilizer are you using?

And you could also probably try to lift the rootball out of the pot, and inspect it for root rot or any other possible issue.

dawn is a detergent.. not a soap ... i suspect you did some real damage to the leaves ... and then oiled it 3 times .... so am not surprised the worse remedy- affected are falling off ...

i would get it back outside.. in full bright shade ... i would not stress the leaves anymore with direct sun ...

if your only option is a sun filled balcony.. i would not put it outside ... but i would open those blinds every day.. do the best you can ...

its stressed as it can be.. and imo .. not hungry ... i dont fert stressed plants ... give it a month or two ... to settle down ...

i have no clue how you put a tree that size.. under grow lights... as said lights would need to be rather close to the leaves.. to mimic sunlight ... and you would need a lot of lights ...

all other variables perfected .. trees can lose all their leaves.. and releaf ... so i wouldnt get too wound up about some minor leaf fall ... they dont hang on the trees forever.. and hopefully.. you are just losing some of the older ones ..

i would focus on the growth tips.. and new growth.. to gain an idea of how the plant is currently doing ... if it is growing nicely.. its not dying ... as long as you dont kill the roots... the tree should survive ... and do keep in mind.. watering could be very different indoors as compared to outside ....

need to know where you are.. to discuss balcony conditions... can you leave it out there all winter????

ken

Denise is right, you do need to fertilize it more often. But I'm guessing that is probably not the issue right now. Was your tree healthy before the scale? Continue to spray regularly for pests. They always come back when you're not paying attention. When was the last time you repotted it? That is a large tree and may need repotting. How long does the soil stay wet for after you water it?

Light is not likely the cause of the leaf loss, but it could be. It's probably related to the use of the dishsoap. Another possibility is, if the neem oil product wasn't a natural cold-pressed product, and instead was neem extract mixed with a vehicle and an emulsifier so it can be mixed with water, the plant might have had a bad reaction to the vehicle (when you mix sugar into coffee, coffee is the vehicle).

Dishsoap/ detergent’s effect on plants varies
with the mode of exposure. If the top of the plant is sprayed
thoroughly with even mild detergent solutions such that all surfaces
including leaves are covered, the detergent can easily dissolve the
protective coating of cuticular wax on the leaves of the plant,
causing abnormally high rates of water loss and possible necrosis of
all or part of the leaf. Cuticular waxes prevent leaves from drying
out, and help stop pathogens from attacking the leaf. Strong
solutions will even dissolve cell membranes, causing death of the
cells.

If a detergent solution is used as a soil drench
or makes its way into the soil as a consequence of over-spray or
run-off, the effect on roots is immediate. Because one of the main
function of roots is to absorb water and nutrients dissolved in
water, they lack the waxy protective coating that leaves employ.
Detergent solution in contact with root cells can quickly dissolve
the lipid membrane surrounding cells, killing the cells and
inhibiting water/ nutrient uptake. Hair cells growing as appendages
off larger roots do the lion’s share of assimilating water and
nutrients, and these very delicate cells would be the first casualty
of any detergent in the root zone.

There are widely available insecticidal soaps,
designed to be used topically and made from potassium fatty acids,
that are specifically formulated to be safe for mammals & birds,
death on most insects they contact, and safe for plants. If you need
something soapy, it would be much better if you selected a product
intended for use on plants than one intended for other purposes.

******************************************************************************

The intervals between fertilizer applications from situation to situation are variable in the extreme. No one can offer meaningful guidance for fertilizing containerized plants w/o a fair amount of information, or stating the cultural conditions for which the advice is given. If you asked me to help you formulate a regimen that would work well, and you wanted me to help you determine the best solution strength and intervals between applications, I'd want to know what fertilizer you're using - particularly the NPK %s, what mean temperatures are, what kind of light the plant gets, and as much as you can tell me about your soil choice and watering habits. Crucial to the confab would be whether or not you can water to beyond the point of saturation so you're flushing the soil when you water, this, without the need to worry that your soil/planting will retain too much water for too long a period, causing root health and root function to be at sub par levels.

If you're using FP 9-3-6, you don't need another fertilizer or supplement unless you're worried that you might forget to apply the FP when it's needed. FP 9-3-6 has all nutrients essential to normal growth, so dosing with "this or that" is more likely to end up being a limitation than a boon. Also, I don't often use controlled release fertilizer (CRF) products like Osmocote et al because they can be a problem when it's hot. Release rate is driven by temperature, so when you should be pulling back on fertilizer to make it easier for the plant to take up water, the little prills are releasing nutrients at or near the maximum rate. Obviously, soluble synthetic fertilizers give you maximum control because all you need do is skip an application when it's searing hot - can't do that with a CRF.

Finally, I don't think I'd be particularly careful about trying to salvage the existing foliage. If your plant was reasonably healthy before the dishsoap thing, and you leave it in full sun, the leaves will burn and fall off, ans the tree will then push a new flush of growth that's optimized to light levels where it's sited. I do that with my trees all the time.

The series of images below are of a ficus benjamina, but I regularly defoliate and/or partially defoliate dozens of tree species in order to balance the tree's energy flow.

How's the tree after all this great advice Laura? Been wondering

I cannot agree that a common soap spray to rid a citrus tree of insects such as aphids, dissolves the cuticle wax off of the leaf's surface, damaging the tree. Using common soaps as an "insecticide" has been used on citrus since the first tree was planted in a container. I've been into citrus for 30+ years and have never heard of a problem from the use of soap sprays. On this forum alone over the years members have used soap sprays literally 1000s of times with good success..

Silica, by "soap" I assume you are actually referring to dishwashing detergent which will definitely remove the waxy covering from plants.

I know that many people have used dish washing detergent as a spray on their plants but have not heard of any deleterious consequences. So, yes, the wax is removed by the dish washing detergent but where is the proof that it actually causes damage?

Thanks for letting me know you don't agree. I should probably let you know I don't care, but I do welcome the opportunity to explain why. The logical error you make actually has a name. It's called "Appeal to Tradition". Horticultural myths are about as plentiful as BS on overgrazed pasture lands. My interest is in making sure others get reliable information.

Toxic Chemicals In Typical Dish Soap

• Phosphates
• Triclosan
• SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate)/SLES (sodium laureth sulfate)
• Fragrance
• DEA (diethanolamine), MEA (monoethanolamine), TEA (triethanolamine)
• Chlorine
• Formaldehyde
• Ammonia

It doesn't matter if 100,000 people THINK dish soaps as insecticides are the best thing since sliced bread. Heck - you can find 100,000 people who THINK Justin Bieber and the Kardashians are laudable role models - just on a couple of average street corners. What does THAT say? The idea that 'consensus' or even nearly complete consensus can somehow settle science is completely absurd, and foreign to all real scientists because consensus has absolutely nothing to do with science. Touting consensus, and relying on consensus as a talking point, is the stock and trade of pretenders, and in science - irrelevant. Historically, some of the more famous scientists staked their claim to fame due to the simple fact they broke with consensus, leaving consensus behind as refuge for swindlers and mischief makers.

Take a few seconds to search using search words dish soap phytotoxic, and you'll see the common thread that runs through the sites is that dish soaps do indeed destroy cuticular waxes and oils, which creates a number of physiological woes. If you dig deeper, you'll also encounter information stating dish soaps and other household cleaning products are especially hard on root lipid membranes, facts that don't require your recognition or agreement.

https://www.extension.iastate.edu/news/2007/nov/071601.htm

If folks feel that it would be to the benefit of their plants if they were treated with an insecticidal soap, PLEASE avoid dish soaps and other household cleaners, and splurge on a container of Safer's or other brand of insecticidal soap formulated to be easy on plants. Even then, it should be tested on a small part of the plant and the application site observed for at least a couple of days.

Al

Al , I put it in very few words, its a bunch of BS. If what you claim was true there would be mountains of damaged citrus trees even just on this one forum, NOT. Your claim is not worth my time.

Ok, I should probably know better than to weigh in here, but focus on a few facts:

1) the difference between soap and detergent is that soap is composed of naturally occurring substances and detergent is man-made. Detergents can be all over the map; you could make a detergent that was essentially the same as soap.

2) detergents are free-rinsing; soap needs to be washed off. That is one point in detergent's favor.

3) detergents can be selected to perform well in hard water. Another good point.

Etc, etc etc.

Is soap/and or detergent bad for plants? I don't know. I wish that all of the sites that said that dish detergent contained toxic chemicals didn't have urls like www.livelovefruit.com

Laura it's tough to grow citrus indoors. They are native to humid tropical regions and it's hard to replicate that in an apartment. Scale is common, so are mealy bugs. You've done a decent job of trying to eradicate the scale. Keep trying to maintain the best environment for it that you can. Insects and disease tend to seek out weak plants. Good luck!

Al, re Toxic Chemicals In Typical Dish Soap, "It's the dose that makes the poison".Even salt is toxic at a high enough concentration. Are these substances, when diluted dish soap is used as a spray, present in high enough concentrations to be phytotoxic?
There is no doubt that dish washing detergents are phytotoxic. Some plants are more sensitive than others. Could citrus be less sensitve at the concentrations generally used on citrus?

Plants' susceptibility to household detergents varies by species, locale, environmental factors, genetics, and other influences; but the glaring fact that remains is, household cleaning products, like dish soaps, do indeed dissolve cuticular waxes and lipid membranes at low concentrations of 2% and less; and, their efficacy is generally significantly inferior to that which is to be gained from the long-chain potassium fatty acids in insecticidal soaps, which are formulated to be as gentle as possible to plants and still do the job.

It's entirely possible and perhaps even probable that Citrus is less affected by detergent solutions than other more sensitive genera/species, but that shouldn't be viewed as a clarion call to see how much a plant will tolerate. How much damage should we tolerate when there are far more effective, and gentler products readily available that won't break the budget?

Our job as growers consists of little more than fixing to the greatest degree possible or avoiding altogether the things that prevent our plants from realizing their genetic potential. Dish soaps and most other household cleaning products are toxic to plants, that's a given. They are also ineffective at levels too low. What solution strength is weak enough to avoid seriously harming plants, yet strong enough to be effective as an insecticide? Who knows? Then, that you might not immediately SEE damage caused by wax stripped from the plant's cuticle is not reason enough to believe it's not occurring.

Al

Al, I completely agree with your last statement.

By the way, I would never use dish "soap" on any of my plants. I use insecticidal soap (Safer's).

Right PacNorWreck. I would add that just because you do not "see" damage to the plant does not mean it is not affected adversely. It may not be immediately visible. Even the so called safe soaps are short chain fatty acids that are designed to act on waxy/greasy substances more effectively. Insecticidal soaps are long chain molecules and are much gentler. You can use insecticidal soap as a cleaner too but it would not be as effective at that.

From reading all the postings, I can see the reasoning behind the possibility that soap/detergent sprays have the capability of causing some "damage" to the tree. Having said that, soap/detergent insecticidal sprays have been commonly sprayed for decades upon decades on citrus trees to kill insects. Over the many years of soap/detergent spraying, many trees have been repeatedly sprayed 100s of times, if not many 100s of times, If there was a clear and present danger, one would think that these trees would show considerable damage, if not death. Therefore, it seems reasonable that the cuticle of a citrus leaf must have a strong resistance against soap/detergent spray damage, Otherwise there would be a great deal of damage spread over a wide area that would have shown up many years ago. Lastly, I admit that we do not used soap/detergents as an insecticide, mainly because there are other sprays that do a much better and quicker job as an insecticide for citrus. UltraPure Horticultural oil is our main spray agent.

Good evening all. Sorry for being MIA, my job is fairly demanding in the summers and does not allow much down time. I am very appreciative of the comments on here and am happy to report that my tree is growing back new leaves. It has lost about 80% of its old leaves at this point, and I would agree with many of the comments above that the Dawn dish soap was not the correct thing to use, I did use a lot of it and though I tried to rinse the tree off, I only waited about 2 hours before applying the neem oil. I am sure that this combination did not help things and I have notcied many of the leaves that are still left are burnt and will probably drop as well. Lesson learned.

I have attached some recent photos, one of which has a photo of the current fertilizer as well as the neem oil I was using. I have not done anything but water it every other day since my original post. I do have some scale present and I would very much appreciate any further tips and guidance as to how to care for my tree as this is my first time with citrus (and was almost my last...PHEW!). Any links or specific product recommendations and/or specific instructions would be much appreciated, I have tried to read as much as I can online, how does everyone get their knowledge?!

I will continue to report as possible. Thank you again for your kind words and information.

Laura

Oil and fertilizer

I apologize, I seems as if my photos will not post. I will try again tomorrow. I cannot find a specific brand for the neem oil to tell you but the fertilizer is Dr Earth 5-5-2 for fruit trees.

I will add that I have moved the tree to protect it slightly from the sun, it receives a few hours of morning light, it has been on average about 105 here these last few weeks. Once it cools down I will bring it back towards more sunlight. I do have the ability to water thoroughly and I do that every other time that I water. Happy to have any recommendations as to watering. Will look into a soil meter as well, but I have always read that the soil should be almost dry before watering again. Is this still correct?

I see the claim suddenly IS worth your time, but why not just man-up and accept the fact you're wrong, instead of building for yourself such a cushy spot to land when you fall? "We can evade reality, but we can't evade the consequences of evading reality." Ayn Rand said that - wish I'd've thought of it.

Laura - organic fertilizers for container culture probably aren't the best choice. First, the hydrocarbon chains in organic supplements must be cleaved by soil organisms before nutrients become available for uptake. The problem is, containers are generally hostile environments for soil life, so their populations tend to be in boom/bust cycles. Because you can't depend on a steady population of soil denizens, you can't depend on nutrients they might or might not release being available when your plants need them, and you have no idea how much of what is available at any given time. Soluble synthetic fertilizers allow a great deal of precision and control over nutritional supplementation; especially true when you're using a soil you can flush at will w/o being concerned it will remain saturated so long it limits root function and wrecks root health. When you can flush the soil, it's like hitting the fertilizer "reset button" and starting with a clean slate. There is a LOT to be said for that arrangement, as it provides the best opportunity for your plants to achieve as much of their genetic potential as possible. Also, If your plants are going to remain indoors for part of the year, organic fertilizers/soil amendments are just the thing to send fungus gnats into an orgiastic frenzy. They LOVE the decomposing organic matter and will reward you with their exuberance.

The best neem oil product to use would be pure cold-pressed neem oil. Steam and alcohol/formaldehyde extraction of the oil reduces the azadirachtin content, which is the source of neem oil's insecticidal properties. Many insecticides that use "NEEM" in their name have some azadirachtin
(neem's active ingredient) + other insecticides (like insecticidal soap,
permethrin, et al) to provide the instant knockdown neem lacks. These
topical chemicals are more likely to affect beneficial populations than
the neem oil itself, and the vehicle that acts as an emulsifier so neem will form an aqueous solution is often very harsh on plants, which brings us full circle to using a cold-pressed pure product. Also, hard water is a problem, so for a few plants you should use distilled water or water from a R/O filtration system. I have a small one that will make 75 gallons of water with 0 PPM dissolved solids. I use it to water plants and for drinking water. I've had it for more than 5 years and have spent less than $10 (if you don't count shipping) to replace 2 of the 5 filters. I think it was a little bit north of $200 when I bought it. Use insecticidal soap as an emulsifier - not dish soap.

pH is based on a logarithmic scale from 1 to 14. Where a pH of 7 is
neutral, a pH of 6 is 10 times more acidic than a pH of 7. Many
insecticides are sensitive to pH levels because of something called
hydrolysis, which is a chemical process whereby larger molecules with
insecticidal properties are broken (cleaved) into smaller (ionic)
particles that may lack any insecticidal properties at all when they recombine
with other smaller particles. How much effect hydrolysis has
insecticides depends on the insecticide's chemistry, water pH, water
temp, exposure to sunlight, and how long the mixture has been in the
spray container.

Neem oil is susceptible to alkaline hydrolysis, which means that a pH
greater than 7.0 causes degradation, so adjusting your spray water to a
pH from 5.5 - 6.5 for neem products is beneficial; whereas some
pesticides are affected by acid hydrolysis at pH levels below 7.0, so
they should be mixed with water adjusted to pH levels from 7.5 - 8. In
either case, the sooner you use the spray mixture, the more effective it
will be. White vinegar or citric acid (from a wine-making supply store)
are very effective at reducing water's pH.

************************************************************************************

I'll leave you something I wrote about using a 'tell' to 'tell' you when it's time to water:

Using a 'tell'

Over-watering saps vitality and is one of the most
common plant assassins, so learning to avoid it is worth the small
effort. Plants make and store their own energy source –
photosynthate - (sugar/glucose). Functioning roots need energy to
drive their metabolic processes, and in order to get it, they use
oxygen to burn (oxidize) their food. From this, we can see that
terrestrial plants need air (oxygen) in the soil to drive root
function. Many off-the-shelf soils hold too much water and not enough
air to support good root health, which is a prerequisite to a healthy
plant. Watering in small sips leads to a build-up of dissolved solids
(salts) in the soil, which limits a plant's ability to absorb water –
so watering in sips simply moves us to the other horn of a dilemma.
It creates another problem that requires resolution. Better, would be
to simply adopt a soil that drains well enough to allow watering to
beyond the saturation point, so we're flushing the soil of
accumulating dissolved solids whenever we water; this, w/o the plant
being forced to pay a tax in the form of reduced vitality, due to
prolong periods of soil saturation. Sometimes, though, that's not a
course we can immediately steer, which makes controlling how often we
water a very important factor.

In many cases, we can judge whether or not a
planting needs watering by hefting the pot. This is especially true
if the pot is made from light material, like plastic, but doesn't
work (as) well when the pot is made from heavier material, like clay,
or when the size/weight of the pot precludes grabbing it with one
hand to judge its weight and gauge the need for water.

Fingers stuck an inch or two into the soil work ok
for shallow pots, but not for deep pots. Deep pots might have 3 or
more inches of soil that feels totally dry, while the lower several
inches of the soil is 100% saturated. Obviously, the lack of oxygen
in the root zone situation can wreak havoc with root health and
cause the loss of a very notable measure of your plant's potential.
Inexpensive watering meters don't even measure moisture levels, they
measure electrical conductivity. Clean the tip and insert it into a
cup of distilled water and witness the fact it reads 'DRY'.

One of the most reliable methods of checking a
planting's need for water is using a 'tell'. You can use a bamboo
skewer in a pinch, but a wooden dowel rod of about 5/16” (75-85mm)
would work better. They usually come 48” (120cm) long and can
usually be cut in half and serve as a pair. Sharpen all 4 ends in a
pencil sharpener and slightly blunt the tip so it's about the
diameter of the head on a straight pin. Push the wooden tell deep
into the soil. Don't worry, it won't harm the root system. If the
plant is quite root-bound, you might need to try several places until
you find one where you can push it all the way to the pot's bottom.
Leave it a few seconds, then withdraw it and inspect the tip for
moisture. For most plantings, withhold water until the tell comes out
dry or nearly so. If you see signs of wilting, adjust the interval
between waterings so drought stress isn't a recurring issue.

Al

Don't waste your money on a soil meter. They are very inaccurate. Use your finger to see if the soil feels moist instead.

Al, "man up" ? Maybe Silica isn't a man.

Am I the only one that thinks that if someone calls him/herself a 'pro' they should provide some kind of credentials? At least a name? And ad hominem comments are not very professional.

Al, my above post, as it pertains to soap "damage" and citrus was to show that this whole discussion was really much about nothing.

Good grief, for me fending members is the norm, some dislike me and i dislike a lot.

I'm a "PRO" because of my business, a glazing contracting corporation - not because I make a living by growing plants. I'm perfectly happy to be judged by the content of my offerings, and I give as good as I get from those with an axe to grind. My offerings, even when they consist of disagreeing with what someone said that has the potential to detract from the growing experience of others, have seemed to serve me and the community just fine, and I can't even keep up with the off-fora messages I get asking questions. I read that, and the number of followers who think I have something to offer, as something of a validation of how I conduct myself, even if you disagree. I can always count on a few individuals to disagree with me, no mater what I say. They, and you, have the opportunity to make a case against anything I say, and I welcome that because a lot can be learned from a disagreement between two people, and it establishes a pecking order in the minds of others. I realize that our most valuable asset, if we truly want to help others and not just be noticed, is our credibility. Unless I mention what I'm saying is conjecture, you can count on the fact that I'll be operating within the limits of my knowledge. If others are not willing to do that, they should expect others to disagree with them. At that point, it's up to them to make their case. If you notice, that hasn't been done. A shot over my bow (terse disagreement) with no support really isn't worth much. If someone has been doing something known to be detrimental to their plants, it's foolish to point to the idea it must be ok since people have been doing it for so long. For a long time, people cast out demons and 'let blood' from sick folk as a cure for any old malady. I'm thinking that most hospitals/clinics might look askance at anyone suggestion either as a treatment regimen today, yes?

There are many horticultural myths perpetuated by people perfectly willing to parrot whatever they heard/read, and offer opinions w/o the inconvenience of thought. Dispelling those myths and other information that doesn't hold up to even cursory examination collectively benefits the fora, and the additional exchange of information used to support a position is often a trove of usable tidbits. If it bothers someone to be corrected, maybe it's best that they examine how they habitually post, pull back on the reins a bit, and make sure they're on solid footing when they make a claim or disagree with someone. Some people walk through the rooms of life pointing to flaws and imperfection in the works and endeavors of others, sometimes even greatly distorting reality in attempt to force some sort of withered fruit from their efforts in order to advance an agenda. Though it can occasionally be accomplished when it’s undertaken in good faith, it remains nonetheless difficult to earn the mantel of helper, when the true habit runs to hindering those who actually DO help.

As you can see, I'm perfectly capable of making a point w/o having to call you unprofessional or otherwise impugn your character. I always prefer that to intercourse less civil, but I don't think I'm required to show the same respect to those who habitually make an effort to deny me the same courtesy I offer do to the thousands of other GW/Houzz members I've been communicating with for many years. As always, YMMV.

Al

Well said!!!

Once again, Al, my above post, as it pertains to soap "damage" and citrus was to show that this whole discussion was really much about nothing.

Well Al is a horticultural pro too because of his vast knowledge both in theory and in practice. Although, the PRO label on this site is entirely because of his business offerings as he already mentioned. That is how this site works.

If you look around Silica has engaged Al many times before and often with personal attacks that are sometimes deleted after posting. In this thread too he posted "mokusatsu", and later deleted, in response to Al. From wikipedia: Mokusatsu (黙殺) is a Japanese word meaning "ignore", "take no notice of" or "treat with silent contempt". Why resort to such low levels when one is supposedly an expert?

According to history, use of soap as pesticide was discovered by the Chinese in 1100AD. It became popular late 1800 and early 1900 but got replaced by synthesized pesticides during WW2. In early 70's people started researching into safe alternatives following the book "Silent Spring" in 1962. One of the result is the invention of insecticidal soap as a safe alternative to regular soap for plants.

Safer brand insecticidal soap existed from 80s as far as I can tell. Yet people, probably mostly home gardeners, chose to use recipes made from household stuff. Probably because it was cheaper and more convenient. I also did not know better till late 90s. Probably also because knowledge was not easy to come by before Google and buying choices were limited before Amazon.

So now knowledge and means are now there, but Google is also full of myths and home-made recipes that make it to the top 100 hits easily. Because every Tom, Dick and Harry now thinks they are entitled to state their opinion while the facts get buried deep in Google.

It is well proven fact that soaps and detergents will dissolve cuticular wax. Just because a plant does not die because of repeated use does not prove that it is safe to use it. Plants may eventually respond differently under stress - not grow, chlorotic, repeated infestations, etc. But the solution is not easy to find unless you can eliminate many or all possibilities except the true culprit. Like Al, I like to eliminate all possibilities of stress to plants. After all, why take the risk when you have invested so much in buying plants and pots and countless hours in taking care of them.

Still it remains, where are all these dead or even damaged citrus trees from soap spray, followed by soap spray and still more soap spray over the many years that they have been used, even up to this very day? It seems no one has ever been able to point them out. It must be much to do about nothing.

They are at the cemetery a place that is nice and calm, there is probably one close to your place.

Silica got 30 years experience in citrus so he got to be the smartest. I only got 5, i would never catch-up. No wonder there are doubts at my posts. Thanks Silica for helping-out.

Silica - How will you ever know for real why a plant died without an "autopsy". You have a tendency to make sweeping statements that include phrases like "years and years", "100s and 1000s", "all over the world" and others without a basis. I can extend that to justify that smoking must be OK too. After all people all over the world have been smoking for years and years and must have smoked tens of thousand and yet you do not see the streets littered with dead bodies because of that. But it is guaranteed that all will die at some point and in vast majority of the cases a doctor will not be able to determine the exact root cause.

But I am certain you do not see the fallacy in your argument.

Enough guys, the girls might get back at guys being gullible or something about a rag...

I agree with Bob. Bob could be the wisest person on this entire forum, and probably is. I will leave it with this:.... The "tragic" dangers of soap turns out to be much to do with absolutely nothing. Life goes on, and the soap trees happily live to reach old age.

If I might take a moment to muse ...... Making light of an issue or making it seem like 'it ain't no thang' is a tactic used by someone trying to save face - especially when it becomes repetitious. I've seen this scenario played out dozens if not hundreds of times on the fora. If someone knows with certainty, that something is harmful to plants or has the potential to detract from the growing experience of others, yet scoffs at reliable/proven information, uses the sour cream of wit (sarcasm) in attempt to diminish others so they appear closer to that person's measure, they are here for the wrong reasons. I think it's sad whenever I see someone willingly put themselves in a position where they have to backtrack and sacrifice integrity/credibility in an attempt to save face. That's pretty much the position in which we might all find ourselves if it happens we're getting a greater measure of satisfaction from creating heat, rather than light.

As always though, I appreciate the opportunity to expand on a theme when the seeds of doubt are sown. Much can be learned about plants and people from what transpires in a disagreement.

Al

Laura? You still there? Let us know how your tree does! Yes, let the soil get pretty dry before you water again. With house plants I put them in the shower and really soak them so that the water runs out the bottom, let them sit there and drain, and then put them back in their place.

Al, you have to learn the art of expressing your statements in less that 5,000 words . By the way, if you can ever point out even one single citrus tree showing any damage from a spraying of soap, please let me know where I can find it. Good hunting, you will surely need it. If you wish to post an answer of its location, please see if you can do it in a post of less than 1,000 words or less then 10 paragraphs, your kind brevity will be much appreciated. Thank you for all your extended long teachings and the many pearls of wisdom. I wish you the best.

Sara, still here. Sadly watching these arguments play out over a very simple need for some help with my plant. I appreciate all advice and science behind each of these comments. I have no intention of continuing these arguments but will state for my own purpose that the dawn and water spray bottle that I used along with the neem oil and hot days did not help my particular plant. It is in the process of growing back and I have learned a lot about leeching the plant, fertilizer options and the like. I will continue to update every month or so.

Al, I would like some more information or recommendations regarding the soluble synthetic fertilizers as well as putting the neem oil and PH issues into laymans terms, I did not understand what you meant by spraying to dilute will be more effective. Could you elaborate on the products youre referring to or how to go about knowing whether I need to do that or not?

Thank you

L - would you say your soil is one that doesn't hold a lot of excess water? If it does hold excess water, you'll need to do some things to actively remove a good measure of the excess in order to avoid having to constantly battle your soil for at least a chance at keeping roots healthy. Watering to beyond the point of saturation is indeed the correct way to water because flushing the soil = preventing a build-up of dissolved solids (salts) in the soil, but your job doesn't end there. Simply putting your plants back in their place after they've stopped draining on their own can be a bad habit worth breaking if your soil holds excess water. The largest step forward you can make as a container gardener is learning to make a soil that doesn't hold excess water, or learning how to deal with soils that do. The former is much to be preferred over the later, but either can make very significant improvements in your ability to keep plants healthy. Your job, as head grower of the household, is learning to identify what's limiting your plants' ability to realize the genetic potential Mother Nature gave them, and acting to eliminate those limitations - nothing more than that, unless you include sweeping op a few fallen leaves.

I'm not sure what you referred to when you said "[you didn't] understand what you [I] meant by spraying to dilute will be more effective.
Could you elaborate on the products you're referring to or how to go
about knowing whether I need to do that or not?" I couldn't find where I said that, so I'm missing something insofar as what you're asking about. Sorry - I'll watch for your reply.

Soluble synthetic fertilizers are furnished in a form the plant can take up as soon as it enters the soil. Organic fertilizers, more accurately called soil supplements, have to pass through the gut of soil life in order to break down the organic molecules into a form the plant can use. That's a very 'iffy' proposition for container culture, and pretty much a crap shoot when things like soggy soils complicate the equation. In the end, what the plant takes up are salts. It doesn't matter if the salts come from a fish, manure, or a bottle of blue-green liquid fertilizer - in the end, it's all the same, which is why I prefer to use what gives me the most control.

If you asked for a suggestion regarding what to use, I'd say, "Get a small container of Dyna-Gro's Foliage-Pro 9-3-6, and a small container of Dyna-Gro's ProTeKt 0-0-3, which is 3% (by weight) potassium, but also contains about 8% opaline silicon, which can make a big difference in how well your plants resist extremes in temps, moisture levels, and has many other very notable advantages. If you or anyone else would like to know more about the +s of Si(licon), I can post a letter that Dave Neal (CEO of Dyna-Gro) forwarded to me, written by Jianjun Chen, Russell D. Caldwell and Cynthia A. Robinson, Biological Scientists at the University of Florida’s Mid-Florida Research and Education Center.

If you need help managing excess water, let me know and we can figure out a plan. For small containers you can hold over the sink, try moving them downward, then upward. You'll see excess water exits the drain on every transition from downward to upward. You can actively remove all excess water by this method. If your plants are too large, you can use wicks or something called ballast to remedy excess water retention.

Let me know what you're thinking.

I beg a pardon for dirtying up your thread with a disagreement. I really do want you and everyone else to get all the enjoyment possible from your growing experience. When someone says something I said is incorrect, then posts information that has only the potential to detract from the growing experience of the rest of the forum, I have a hard time letting it stand. It has no impact on my growing experience because I already understand why the info is faulty, but it can/does impact others. I just think it's unconscionable for anyone to act in such a way, and I'm not bashful about saying so.

Al

Laura, guys do those things all the time it ain,t no biggy. Al can handle all situations well. Some of Al tutorials are a little long but I my case I don,t mind reading over and over, it is all good stuff. Sooner or later I might be just as smart as he is, no way. Silica might be one of the nicest guy you want to know or meet, right Silica and for that matter some others too.

I freely admit to being long winded, and I tend to qualify whatever I say to the degree there is little question that the info I provide is rooted in sound science and in most cases, backed by practical application. The more thoroughly we qualify our offerings, the less likely the probability of disagreement, though there is no accounting for those whose purpose is to disagree. No amount of qualifying will deter that type of person. I also look at every response or answer as an opportunity to share information with the whole forum, so when I address a single person, I'm really writing for everyone who might read my post, from the present well into the future. I get many 'likes' every day for information I wrote more than a decade ago, so the habit of qualifying what I say and writing as much for the forum as to an individual resonates with most people seeking reliable information. I understand that some folks don't care to read anything that seems complicated or is longer than 1-2 short paragraphs, but I'm not trying to reach those folks. My focus is directed toward those who show willingness to make an effort to increase their proficiency and have at least a measure of enthusiasm that's detectable. I alway figure if my information is too long or involved, it's very easy to tune me out by skipping over my offerings.

I learned a long time ago that experience means much less than we might expect when compared to knowledge. In most cases where hobby growers are involved, experience means doing the same things over and over, even if they're wrong or there are better ways. Those who take the time to learn at least the basics, then use practical application (their experience) to validate what they've learned, will leave the trial and error crowd standing in their slipstream.

Al

Laura, I will try a short version if that helps. Ask questions if something is not clear.

Foliage Pro is the best that is out there as far as fertilizers
go. It contains the main nutrients in the right proportions including
the micro nutrients. Maintenance dose is 1/4 tsp per gallon. This is the
dose I use in winter and generally when they are not growing. When they are growing enthusiastically I start bumping up the dose to 1/2 tsp and higher. Water only when the top few inches are dry (Use a tell like a dowel or chopstick to figure out if the soil is damp/dry) . And every 3-4 fertilization I flush the soil with plain water first followed by a dose of fertilizer.

Neem is a tricky thing as you may have guessed. If your water is hard add about 1 tbps of vinegar and let it sit for an hour or use distilled or rainwater. Having the water warm helps a lot. I aim for starting 90F for water and spraying cools it down. Add about a tsp of insecticidal soap, 2.5tbsp of cold pressed neem oil. And shake vigorously for a minute to let it mix in properly. While spraying shake the bottle every now and then.

Tell-tale signs of neem oil or other oils damaging leaves: round blobs of leaf discoloration. This is because the oil did not dissolve properly or the leaves are just sensitive to oil. Oil based pesticides should not be applied in full Sun or when too cold (< 60F) or hot (> 85F). Soap damage is usually leaves curling, drying to crisp and falling off.

It is not short version after all. Call it shorter version.

My husband says that experience passes through some people without stopping.

"Seek knowledge even as far as going to the depths of seas".

Knowledge + practice = experience

Or as Nero Wolfe always told Archie Goodwin: use your intelligence guided by your experience.

This website presents some unique opportunities. For one, we at least have opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others, so as not to be punished by nature for repeating their errors; but, that thought needs to be tempered by the fact that even though humans are unique in that they CAN learn from the mishaps that befall their neighbors, they are at the same time very often disinclined to do so. I want to make my own mistakes, I want to do it MY way, and I want to do it as soon as possible!! When you stop to think about it, experience is little more than the name we give to our mistakes ..... and I learned that long ago through experience.

Endeavors that involve horticultural hobby pursuits are such that a huge % of growers are at a disadvantage from lack of ability to identify what caused a particular plant to respond in a particular way. Plentiful are the horticultural myths that arose from "science" made up to fit the observation. It actually takes a reasonable working knowledge of horticulture to accurately evaluate much of what happens as a result of our day to day actions, and illustrative examples of that contention abound in most threads of any length. Wisdom, as opposed to knowledge, comes when we're able to anticipate the results that come from various actions.

We all interact with our plants on different planes. The more we learn, the greater the potential to elevate the plane on which we interact. For example - we all have that 'nurturing bone', or we wouldn't be here. I very often try to impress on growers the idea that plants have natural rhythms, and it's better if we learn to work with the plant, playing to the its strengths or strong periods during the growth cycle and making allowances for periods during which the plant is weaker. Not only does that make things easier for the grower AND the plant, it also increases the sense you're being a better nurturer by laying plans and timing activities in consideration the plants' natural rhythms.

Just some things to think about ................

T-storms here.

Al

Some time ago i did a test with a spray called Shout and a test with a another spray for scale and a slew of other pest.

Here is a picture that i posted a while ago to the dismay of a bunch of guys.

New growth, tree looks pretty good. i don't advise nobody to use Shout .

The other spray works the same, 2 applications, tree is clean.

Bob your a very heroic member. A Shout posting on this forum could set you up for a very loooong garrulous scolding.

Laura: Looks like Al did post about fertilizer and such before I posted my take at a shorter version. For some reason earlier posts do not always show up for me even after a browser refresh. Houzz indeed has a lot of bugs in their software. Perhaps the Houzz folks also can do with need a dose of Shout.