@uscpsycho, I'm pretty sold on the Thermador Freedom cooktop. Now, I'm mulling over whether it's worthwhile to purchase the paired hood system. I have to find out more and I have some time to think about it as the build will be in about a year. It looks like they may have the in line, quieter blower system available so I will check that out.

@uscpsycho, I'm now seriously considering Thermador wall ovens because of the side opening doors. I am older, short and have a bad back so that is very appealing. I love the features of the Miele ovens though. I do want a steam oven as well but that only comes with a drop down door with Thermador and all the others I've seen. But, two different brands of ovens would not be aesthetically pleasing. We will probably have two side opening ovens, a steam oven and a speed oven. In our family, we have lots of food allergies, cook most everything from scratch and we are often waiting for a free oven at mealtimes so multiple ovens are a luxury that will get a lot of use for us.

For what it is worth, I personally was not a fan of the controls on the Freedom model. The response I received when playing around with them in the showroom made me change my mind last minute and go with the Liberty model instead of the Freedom. I'm super happy with the Liberty and after having it now don't think the little bit of extra room is worth the price difference (for me at least). I'd recommend playing with them live in person if that is an option for you. My cooktop is in the island and I have the 1000CFM Fan+Thermador Downdraft which has worked well for us. I also purchased the double steam oven and am very happy with it and use it frequently. Ours is not inset, but I also opted for no frame. Here it is if helpful.

@widdy23, your review and information is very helpful. Your kitchen is beautiful! Do you find the downdraft system very noisy? What is your flooring? It's just my style.

Flooring is rift cut white oak with Weatherwood restoration reactive stain (very light coat), then finished with Bona HD matte. I don't find the downdraft to be noisier than a hood. We installed our blower in the crawlspace below the island. When the downdraft is on high, I can feel a slight vibration in the floor. I would say it is quieter than hoods on high I've used previously. Good luck!

@widdy23, thank you for all of the information. Gorgeous floors!

@widdy23 would you mind sharing the name and type of your counters please? Your kitchen is so pretty!

@widdy23 thanks for sharing, we are within 2 weeks of having our frameless installed and I thought I read in an installation manual that the freedom can be installed completely flush (or inset as you state) with the countertop. Am I mistaken as some of the photos in this thread show the edge is beveled which would indicate a 100% flush surface with the countertop is not possible?

@Anders DiBiccari You didn't ask me but I will answer. The sides of the Freedom are beveled so a fully flush installation is not possible. And if you did it anyway, I worry that this could somehow affect the operation and/or warranty because this is not an indicated installation. I just reviewed my installation manual and they are very precise about the size of the cutout and it does not allow for a flush or inset installation.

Have you ever seen a flush cooktop? When I started this thread the idea of a flush cooktop appealed to me but then I saw a couple in person and now I would never want or recommend a flush cooktop for two main reasons (which were probably discussed above).

The first issue is that it doesn't look like the cooktop becomes one with the cooktop. There is going to be a tiny gap between the counter and the cooktop and it is impossible to miss from close up. It doesn't look as seamless as you might imagine. The second issue is that little gap is a channel that is going to get full of crud which will be harder to clean the smaller it is. And over time you're going to be spilling all kinds of things in there including tomato sauce and who knows what. I don't want to think about what that gap will look like after a few years of use.

@chestnut3. The countertops are Maldives quartzite. They have been very family friendly.

@uscpsycho thanks for the reply. I fully understand your points, and no I’ve never seen a 100% flush mount in person. I figured one could use clear silicon to mitigate debris and shave down said silicon. It may have worked visually with our countertop due to it being translucent as a geode is located where the cooktop cutout is located.

Anyway, it will still look amazing I’m sure and just was asking since I thought I had read it was a possibility.

@Anders DiBiccari I don't think that will work great. That clear silicone will be very noticeable between your black cooktop and the counter. It will reflect light differently and the color will change depending on the angle you are looking at it. If you went the silicone route I think it would be best to try to match the color of the cooktop so it blends in.

But silicone is soft and easily damaged by a knife or pans or utensils so you'll develop pits which might be hard to clean or become even more damaged if you aggressively try to clean them. And is silicone heat resistant? What if a hot pan touches it? Could it melt or become discolored? I think having silicone be part of your counter top is asking for trouble, especially so close to a cooking area. I'm no expert though, just thinking out loud about all the things that could go wrong because I've learned that if I don't do that something always goes wrong.

@JJ Mekai what did you do with your steam and oven? I am contemplating doing separate to have the oven swing. But would be different than top pull down. Also considering just doing the combo.

@Donna Reed, I'm still a little ways away from building and still in the planning stages. But, I'm fairly certain I will purchase all Thermador Professional series cooking appliances, 2 side swing convection ovens, most likely the double oven version. I will also purchase the steam oven and put the speed oven above it. I am also purchasing the Freedom cooktop. I've spoken with my kitchen designer briefly about it. We haven't 100% firmed up placement yet and I don't have actual dimensions but if we place them beside each other which is the current and likely plan (the alternative is to put one set of ovens in the prep kitchen), we may use a push open storage drawer (they come in 2 heights) or warming drawer to balance the visuals. https://www.thermador.com/us/products-list/ovens/warming-drawers

@jj_mekai Sounds like we’re in the same stage. We just went in for permitting so I do need to finalize where and which appliances are going. So you’re doing 2 ovens, 1 steam and 1 speed? Wow! That seems like a lot! That’s like 4 ovens right? Why so many? I am doing the steam/convection oven over the regular walk oven. Haven’t decided if doing the steam/oven combo unit or 2 separate units so I can get the swing oven and also the separate controls. I’m doing the microwave drawer and prob the freedom induction. I really wanted a 48” cooktop so struggling with the 36” limit. That’s why I would do the freedom. I am doing the SZ fridge/freezer 30” columns so thought if even switching to all Wolf to get the 3 year warranty add on to all appliances. Possibly even add a gas module to the induction to get me to 51”. Not sure. Also my designer wanted me to do the masterpiece if I do the induction to keep it sleek. Personally I like the knobs on the professional al better for the ovens. The handles may need up the look though.

@Donna Reed, yes 4 ovens. We are a large family with lots of food allergies so we're frequently waiting in line for an oven. I love the look of Masterpiece but I know I'll be happier with knob controls. Function over form for me on this one since I like both looks, though I like the Masterpiece look a bit more. I've lived with a large, professional range, 60" and I don't think I'll need more than the 36" Freedom cooktop. Love the features on the Freedom. It sounds like you are well on your way. Would love to see photos when you have it all up and running.

@JJ Mekai WOW! That's awesome! We are a family of 6, but 1 is now in college and the 2nd going in the Fall. I love to cook and when I do, am waiting on burners to free up more than anything. We are in Florida and cook 75% of our main dinners on the grill. We are investing in more of those items (pizza oven, ceramic grill, EVO (one day!), etc.). I usually am using the stove top more for cooking soups, ground beef, etc. probably more than a microwave or oven. We just got a Ninja appliance that is an air fryer/toaster/oven that actually is pretty awesome and stands upright off the counter. It gets hot instantly and is a great alternative than firing up the oven! I am excited about the Steam oven. Have never used one before and the Thermador is a full size. I am thinking of keeping that over the wall oven. I love the look of them side by side and you could even do both oven door swinging out opposite sides so that way they you don't have to step around a door if you need to check on both of them. I don't have the wall space. Also, was debating on the warming drawer. Heard mixed views. Did hear if you keep at counter height near the stove you get more use out of it. Was thinking of putting next to cooktop closer to dining table so if I am taking pancakes off grill I can put right there as I am cooking more. Or leaving extra food in the warming oven while we're eating. Not sure! Do you have a pic of your layout? would love to see!

@Donna Reed, here's my original rudimentary drawing. The kitchen and dining areas are open to the living and entry areas. Upper cabinets in the pantry/prep kitchen will be 12" deep.

@uscpsycho thanks again for your insight. The silicon idea was just a ship passing in the night type of moment in my pea brain. We have company performing the install so obviously it will be done per mfg...quite excited to be moving in soon and using our new appliances.

@uscpsycho @JJ Mekai - how long did the Thermador freedom take to come in? We ordered ours in early February. It was scheduled to ship on 4/14, but now they ay 5/27. Our remodel just started, so I am praying that it truly ships on 5/27 and doesn’t get pushed out again. Thanks!

Things are slow and random, luckily we ordered ours late October and didn’t move in until mid February because our fridge/freezer column didn’t arrive until Jan 30. Although, to be fair, they trickled in and cooktop was in town just after New Year’s. We are still waiting on dishwasher, but fortunately our contractor has great relationship with store and they lent us their floor model while we wait.

@Jennifer Geare Osterweil I bought mine a long time ago. As I recall they were waiting on me to be ready for delivery rather than the other way around.

@Anders DiBiccari, we're not building until next year so I haven't ordered anything yet. I'm hoping wait times will be less by then. I know many appliances across many brands are taking months and months to come in these days. Please post a review and photos when you're up and running.

@uscpsycho, how are you liking your Miele ovens? What types did you get? Are you glad you went with Miele on your ovens?

@widdy23 I keep reading about the Thermador fan noise issues, do you have any experience with the fans being overly noisy in your wall mount ovens (I'm wondering if its the ranges and wall mount ovens that have this issue)? Going nuts trying to decide - Thermador ovens with the fan issues, vs Wolf ovens and their chipping issues....Either way all these expensive appliances seem to have their own unique challenges!

@Ryan Przybyl There is some fan noise when it is cooling down for sure, but I would say less than my previous ovens (Jenn Air which were in the house when we purchased it). We dine right off our kitchen and I polled family members to see if they had ever consciously heard the noise or it bothered them and they said no. I hear it a bit while plating in the kitchen because I know it is there, but not to the point it annoys me. Knock on wood it's been around 9 months and I'm still happy with the entire suite of Thermador products and I cook regularly. I was deciding between Thermador and Wolf too and one thing that sold me on Thermador was the size of their stream oven. I regularly use double ovens and it's capacity made it best of both worlds.

@widdy23 Thank you for this info! Sounds like we're in the exact same boat. I'm looking at doing some combo system of Sub-Zero/Wolf/Thermador, vs just a complete Thermador package. I definitely like the look of their appliances more (the ovens and the induction cooktop). And the deal to get the DW and parts of the hood for free are also a bit compelling.... I was originally looking to go with a Freedom cooktop, but I almost like the Liberty better after looking at them in more depth. I think I must have 20 hours of research into this conundrum as it's not an easy choice! Greatly appreciate the real world view.

@Ryan Przybyl As I mentioned below, I ended up going with Liberty over Freedom because I liked the controls better. I am in love with it and it meets all my needs. Double thumbs up on that choice!

I'm pretty much sold on Sub Zero refrigeration. They will outlast other brands by many years. I'm leaning heavily toward the Thermador Freedom cooktop. But, I'm still undecided about wall ovens. Thermador is high on my list for wall ovens. I will use a side opening door for the wall ovens when possible. It won't be possible if we add a steam combi oven with Thermador. The steam oven door will drop down. Has anyone here considered Gaggenau wall ovens or have experience with them? They have the side opening doors and even have models that will open from the side with the push of a button. I had the pleasure of cooking with them one Thanksgiving at a family member's home and I've never used an oven that cooked better. They are quite a bit more expensive than any other wall oven I've considered. I'm wondering if they have the longevity of say, Subzero, but with their wall ovens. I sure don't want to spend that much money and be looking at replacing them in under 10 years.

After months and months of research, we decided to do double 30” SZ column fridge over double freezer drawers (side by side). That gives me two upper half’s of 30” fridge in both sides (21 cu ft fridge space -same as 36” full fridge) and then 10 cu ft freezer between the 4 drawers. Last min decision once I realized the 30” column all fridge isn’t really a huge bump from my existing basic traditional GE fridge. Doing all Wolf appliances. Induction, convention oven, steam oven, speed oven, warming drawer. For me, Wolf just had the brand appeal, I liked the look much better, and more so the extra 3 year warranty pushed me over. We decided to do the Bosch DW and not the Cove. It was only $1100 I think and extreme reviews and will be paneled. That pushed me to go with Wolf and have similar price package as my Therm. I was going with freedom if I did therm induction. I loved the side swing of Therm and bigger capacity on other products. But the steam is drop down and I wanted them to match. Also with “4” ovens in house I don’t think it’s much a difference overall. I also wanted the steam water reserve to be accessible from outside not inside. It was VERY hard but with the reviews up and down on both I went with the extra 3 years and kept all appliances single units. Also putting fridge/freezer drawers under coffee/smoothie bar and Bev center so hopefully plenty of room for everything!!!! Good luck!!! Can’t go wrong on either package!!

@Donna Reed, thank you for sharing your decision making process. That was very helpful. I think I would do similar if Wolf had side opening doors. I'm short and have health issues so the side swing door is quite important whenever possible. This is why I'm considering Gaggenau all ovens. I sure wish there was more feedback from customers on Gagg.

I wish I could help- I am about 6 moths away from getting my all Gagg kitchen done (2 30" side opening ovens, induction and a steam oven...

The side opening ovens, I think, will be a game changer. I am also fairly short with SHORT ARMS! The full extension shelves / slides will help too.

I think this side door would be awesome! I try to get it but Thermador wasn’t as accommodating and I really didn’t look at any other brands. Realistically, I don’t use my oven that often, we grill our dinners most every night call so I don’t think it will be that big of a deal. I know I will kick myself when I am trying to put in a turkey dinner or my huge cast-iron pot!

@just_janni, please remember us after your kitchen is finished and post reviews of your Gagg appliances. Were you able to get any reliable information about longevity on the Gagg ovens before you purchased?

So, just to add a follow up to this thread. I reached out to Yale Appliance as they do, IMHO, the best job of trying to bring real data on reliability to the public. I asked them what they’ve been seeing in regards to Thermador, increase in service calls, or status quo? I also asked them how the fans compare (these are the two things I have concerns about). On the repair front, they said they haven’t been seeing any uptick in Thermador service calls. They consider their reliability to not have changed much over the past few years (look up their site if you interested in the hard data on units sold vs repair calls). Generally looking at the data, I feel they are about as reliable as most other high end brands, not significantly better or worse.

On the fan front, they said they aren’t any more or less noisy than Wolf, Miele, or any other brand. I trust them as they have all the units in the showroom and can run them side by side. Depsite my findings that people may be complaining a bit more on Thermador lately, their VP of sales brought up a good point:

“I always tell people to pick any product they love in their life and I mean any one that they would say is a “great product”….now do an online google research and you will find countless people out there that complain.”

I think this is a very valid point, and I may give it a try, just to see what I find....

I have found that to be so true!! If these brands were so bad they would have a terrible reputation but instead still dominate the market. I have read prob every review out there and Yale was my go to for sure!!! I LOVED the Freedom and was going to fork over the $$ for it but was surprised Yale said their chefs still preferred the Wolf. Make sure the review is recent, they weren't paid in exchange for review, etc. I also think the best ones come from the Appliance review places that have nothing to gain. good luck!

@JJ Mekai I have a Miele plumbed combi steam oven, wall oven and microwave oven. I am happy with the steam and wall ovens. The caveat here is that I have not really embraced steam oven cooking like I thought I would, or like I plan to do "someday," so I can't comment on steam features.

But I *HATE HATE HATE HATE* my Miele microwave oven. This is the microwave-only oven, not the combo microwave + oven which is better.

The reasons I hate the microwave so much are that it is grossly under powered at 900 watts max and the interface is atrocious. If I have something frozen with instructions that say to microwave on high for 2-3 minutes, I will need 4 minutes or more. Everything takes 25-50% longer than the printed instructions. It's just beyond annoying to have such an expensive microwave work so poorly.

Even worse is the interface. While it is true that most people never do more than set a cook time and power level, nothing else on this oven is intuitive. I am as tech savvy as it gets and I can't do anything else without looking it up in the manual. So I don't do anything else. It's like you are using a microwave with features from the 2000's but with a user interface from 1980.

If I had a $90 microwave on my counter next to the Miele I would use that microwave 100% of the time. The Miele is that bad. But when all your wall appliances are Miele you have to stick to the family.

My other wall appliance is the built in Miele coffee maker which is also plumbed. It can make a lot of different drinks but the only things I use it for are brewed coffee and as a hot water dispenser. This is easily my most used appliance in the kitchen and I love it.

While I'm at it I also have a Miele dishwasher and I'm happy with it. It's my one kitchen appliance with useful connectivity features because the app will notify me when my load is done, and it will tell me how much time is left in my cycle. This is helpful because my dishwasher is integrated so there is no visible exterior display, if not for the app I would never know how much time is left. The app also gives some explanation of what all the different cycles do which is nice.

Did I mention how much I hate my Miele microwave?

^^^ a Sharp micro or equivalent with a nice trim kit in stainless is a way better option. I have a full Gaggenau / SubZero kitchen going in the new house and have a sharp micro with stainless trim kit from Amazon. (at this price, I also bought a backup in case the same size isn't available in 5-10 years when the micro fails. 1200 watts or so....

An "upscale" microwave is usually made by same manufacturers (isn't there like 2 - Sharp and Panasonic?) and uplifted with fancier outsides and possibly interface that won't change much, and thus almost always down level to current.

@uscpsycho, thank you for your detailed review. I really appreciate that you took the time to share your experience. It's very helpful. Interesting comments about your combi steam oven. I actually just ordered the Anova Precision countertop steam oven so I can figure out if I'll enjoy and use steam cooking before committing to adding a combi steam wall oven to my new kitchen.

@uscpsycho, I've also been really torn about adding a built in coffee machine. Your comments there are very helpful too.

This was a complete gut job reno so kitchen design constraints meant only a 24” fridge column and 18“ freezer column, but with proper food organization it is ample space for us.

We still have a few punch list items remaining, but very happy to be in our home and absolutely loving the freedom cooktop. Mom came to visit and went gaga over the power boost feature as she could have coffee/tea water ready in just over 30 seconds. Still waiting on our dishwasher, store lent us their floor model because they learned a week before we were to move in that Thermador had indefinitely stopped making the mid tier model (of course that’s the one we chose) so opted for next one up and haven’t heard a peep yet (3 months already, yikes!)

Ovens are fantastic, cook evenly across oven and temperature is spot on.

Just two minor “wish it was different“ items:

1. Vent hood motor was not outside mountable for the model we chose for some reason.

2. Length of time oven cooling fan runs after turning off.

Edit: Forgot to mention, it took a while to get accustomed to the on/off “button” operation of the cooktop and ovens, they require a slight press and hold vs just press for all other buttons. I assume, if you were to go with the Professional line this would not be the same as they have knobs, but don’t know for certain.

I really like the thought put into the dishwasher racks, middle rack is height adjustable (I believe the most expensive model has all racks height adjustable), love the sponge holder (although using the tablets they get stuck on the sponge occasionally), and additional spacers that flip up/down for more plates vs bowls. Except for the quick cycle, the run times are stupid long though (2+ hrs) and I often forget to run the thing at night...but it is incredibly well sound insulated so no worries on that front. It does make the counter warm when using the extra dry feature, so it might come in handy during the winter as a plate warmer or i might even try using it as a location for proofing dough.

Also, it is interesting learning the sounds of the appliances: buzzing of the magnetic cooktop on high with larger pots/pans, absolutely impatient microwave drawer reminder when time completes, fridge makes a soft puttering sound after opening/closing and randomly while closed (guessing it might have something to do with creating a slight vacuum seal?).

finally, I still have yet to try the dehydrate function on the oven...didn’t even realize that was a feature until a few weeks ago so very excited as I love dried pears and they are quite difficult to find in stores.

@Anders DiBiccari, your kitchen is gorgeous! Thank you so much for providing such a thorough review. It is enormously helpful. Would you say the fan cooling noise after the ovens are off is loud or average? I understand with the new ovens they stay on for a while after the ovens are turned off.

Thank you, thanks to the Covid I was able to be onsite every day during the remodel. It was the most fun I have had in a long time and our contractor was amazing, I even DIY’d a central vacuum system since we brought the entire house down to the studs (taking pictures the entire way...which i would highly recommend to anyone as we were able to locate things, verify subs work, plus prove to inspector items were according to code that were now hidden).

anyway, that’s off topic to your question. We gravitate toward peace and quiet and find the fan noise loud; part of the annoyance is the pitch is high so best way I can describe it would be: it’s similar to a leaf blower in pitch/tone with volume level slightly below lowest level of a range hood. And the hotter your oven cooking temperature the longer it remains running to cool down, I haven’t actually timed how long it stays on, but as an example if we bake something at 350 the fan runs for probably 15-20min after shutting down. It doesn’t help that our ovens face the dining room and with an open concept kitchen/living and just cased openings to the dining the sound echos a lot so we are considering options such as acoustic panels (https://www.acoustimac.com/acousticart).

This is our first foray into high end appliances and had no idea the ovens had this “feature” so it was a bit disappointing when everything else is so nice...but our food comes out so much better and if you run the vent hood motor on medium or high setting it would totally drown out the oven fan, so there’s that solution i suppose, lol! Seriously, though, if we ever do another house I would seriously consider creating an oven alcove that helps reduce the noise and the direction it is thrown.

another interesting discovery is there is a secondary fan that runs 24/7 (at least I assume as I have never not felt it running) that you can not hear and only barely feel a breeze when right up against the oven (comes out just between the upper oven and the control panel). It is cool air so it appears Thermador is vigilant about keeping the electronics from over heating even when off.

finally, i forgot to mention how interesting the fridge/freezer column are in that you never hear the compressor kick on like a “run of the mill” fridge, just a fan kicks on very infrequently and only for about 30 seconds then quiet...oh and the ice cubes, love the pyramid shaped cubes and the fact they don’t stick/melt together (unless power goes out), but unfortunately almost an entire drawer is gobbled up by the bucket being centrally located and scoop off to one side for easy retrieval...but again we only have the 18” freezer column.

I talked with my interior designer today, and she pointed something out/asked a question....apparently her thought was, have you ever propped the door open a small bit (helping it cool down)? She said her oven does the same things, but leaving the oven door slightly open, helps it cool down a lot faster and the fan doesn’t run as long. When I talked to the guy at Yale Appliances, he said they all do that (Wolf and other high end brands), so there may not be getting around this. His opinion was Thermador wall ovens weren’t any more or less noisy than any of the comparable high end brands when it came to this.

please inform your interior Designer to not misguide any other clients as page 8 of Thermador’s manual under Cause of Damage specifically states do not cool oven with door open.

https://media3.bsh-group.com/Documents/9001396398_B.pdf

Great conversation here. Our kitchen in our Condo is all Wolf/Sub-Zero. My Wolf Induction is Flush mounted in my quartz countertop and I LOVE it! The installer did a great job with it as well as the telescoping down draft. We also use a TopZero sink which is essentially a sink mounted Flush with the counter (NOT undermounted) he had to be certified with the company in order to install those sinks so perhaps that is why he did such a good job with the induction cooktop.

We are building new now and really want the same but the location is in the Fl. Keys so I am concerned about installation. I am leaning toward a Thermador package this time as the pricing is really great right now and the reviews are also good.

@Charlene Zubka I have two Top Zero sinks in my kitchen too and I love them. I am surprised they are not more well known and more popular. It's one of my favorite finds.

Would love to see photos of your flush mounted induction. I'm sure it will help others who are trying to decide if it is right for them. Do you have any problem with food particles getting stuck between the edge of the cooktop and the edge of the quartz?

@Charles Sparks, would love to see a photo of your cooktop setup. I absolutely love the Thermador Freedom cooktop and we finally got our dishwasher a few weeks ago (Emerald I believe...whatever the higher priced model is called) and can not say enough good things about it. Prior to this we never had high end appliances and always used our previous dishwashers as drying racks because you had to clean the dishes before placing them into a dishwasher to...clean the dishes. Made zero sense to me. Anyway, after reading the manual for Thermador’s dishwasher and they recommending just removing debris I was skeptical and have done a number of experiments to verify. To date only one item has not come out 100% clean, an aluminum baking dish that had baked on food.

Here is a pic of our Wolf induction cooktop flush mounted in Cambria quartz countertop.

@charlene- How do you like the wolf cooktop? It looks gorgeous!! I just ordered ours and I think I’m just looking for reassurance that I made a good decision. Out of them all, this one seemed the most durable and timeless. A little worried about how close the left hand burners are, but I suppose I’ll adapt. Thanks!