Al, due to size of the tree (err bush, sprout), it was in a 4 inch pot. With drying winds and high heat, it would be on the brink of wilting several times a day.

The roots when lifted were very happy and just about to hit the bottom of the pot, so timing was appropriate in repotting.

It's much happer in a six inch pot with more water holding capacity. It only needs watering every day or maybe even every other day.

Al, my mix looks exactly like yours. I keep my citrus in full sun and I only have to water it once a week in summer. I find that the mix drains super fast when you first make the mix but after a while the stuff starts decomposing and starts retaining more moisture.

Btw, can someone help me regarding my previous comment on the horticultural oil. My citrus is in dire need of help..

Bklyn citrus, btw nice job on the citrus cutting. I didn't know citrus can be propagated by cuttings. I thought they were always either grafted or seed grown. Was there some special method you used to make your cutting successful?

Alanna, I am sorry if I offended you. I certainly did not mean to.

Don't worry any one ITS THE HEAT. Once the temps drop our speaking and understanding of language will be more accurate.

Steve

Hi Alanna, please don't give up on the 511 mix. You have to know that I too failed in using it until I got it just the way in needed to be. There is a member here on this thread, in fact several others having great success with it. It's just a matter or trial and error at times but once you perfect it, there will be no going back to traditional mixes.

Would you mind if I asked how you made it" What ingredients? Did you soak the mix at all before using it? Did you use a composted or un composted bark? Fertilizer? Did you make sure to bare root and remove all the old soil as possible? Were your trees in decline before you did all this? Did you wait until the best time of the year to pot into the 511 mix?How much of each ingredient? Did you use lime? Did you due proper root work before putting your trees into containers with the 511 mix?There has to be a step or two you missed? Only you can find that out.

The reason why I ask is because no matter what part of the country you live it, you should not have to water as often as you think and the mix should dry out evenly. One should have no problem with the 511 mix if made according to Al's posts all over these forums. The pic above should help a lot.

There are friends of mine that live in Nevada, California, to Mass and they don't find over or under watering an issue at all. In fact, there are ones right here experiencing a heat wave in extreme temps using the 511 mix with no issues. In fact, I order plants from a place called 'Top Tropicals' in which they sell very exotic plants in which I have a few very hard species to grow, worst than citrus, and even they use a 511 mix, not a fine mix for sure or they would loose their plants quickly to rot. I can take a pic for anyone that would like to see the mix my Samoan Gardenia came in if they like. They only perform well in a very good aerated mix, 511 like and they are from the HOT state of Florida.

If you choose or decide to go to a bagged mix, or introduce a PWT into your pots hoping to water less often now, you will sacrifice the ability to prevent root rot in the future colder and darker months. Growing in a greenhouse or very warm environments is more forging when sacrificing aeration, and drainage, but many still have problems with finer mixes sooner than later. It's the price one pays. In fact a member here recently has complained of losing a tree he has had for years using a finer peaty mix along with improper root care.

Just remember that when I decide to add more finer particles than the original recipe called for with the 511 mix, or any mix, the risk of root rot rises dramatically . One should not have to worry about rain storms or rain every day in any mix, and the 511 mix is one of them.. Nor should I have to worry about leaving my trees out in the cold , or a lack of sunlight in a mix with great aeration, something I sacrifice if I choose a more water retentive one..

We all have the freedom to choose what we like, but in the end we could pay a price eventually working with mixes that hold a PWT and or moisture much longer than what our trees desire, but what we think they require

P.s if you believe in keeping the center mass of the roots healthy, once you do some good root work removing the old compacted mix from it to be replaced with a well structured porous mix , keeping the center root mass becomes much easier at each repot. It's important to keep the entire root ball mass healthy and happy not just the outer roots .

Mike

Alanna, DB, and H .....

Alanna - If your plant is circling the drain and you have access to a garden or bed, you can pot up to a larger pot after trimming the edge of the root mass and or removing any root rot you find; then, bury the pot so the soil line of the pot is slightly below the natural soil line. Make sure the pot has drain holes. Start fertilizing when you see new growth. The earth will act like a giant wick and remove any perched water that wants to hang around and spoil your plans, even from soils that would normally be too water retentive to use in pots.

If your plant seems like it's not inclined to forfeit its viability just yet, you might buy a colander at a dollar store or a pond basket planter of appropriate size. Make enough of a fast-draining, highly aerated mix to fill the colander or basket. About 10% of the soil should be chopped sphagnum moss (use a blender).

Remove most of the soil and all roots with rot symptoms. Put the plant/fresh soil in the container and keep the soil moist. When the plant starts pushing new growth, start fertilizing at luxury rates.

Whenever I'm particularly excited about getting a tree to the point in its development where I can start working it as bonsai, I pot it in a super fast (draining soil) and fertilize the heck out of it. I use FP 9-3-6 at 2 - 2.5X the recommended production rate when temps are appropriate. I pull way back or stop fertilizing when mean temps are below 60* or above 80-85*. Keep your plant in open or dappled shade until it's well on the way to recovery.

******************************************************************

DB - if ever you run into a situation where a tree has outgrown a tiny pot, do a little trimming around the perimeter of the root mass and bump it up a size ........ or bury it in the garden or a bed ....... or simply lift the root mass, set it on top of a couple of inches of soil in a larger pot, and fill in around the edge perimeter. Make sure the drain holes are large so the roots can grow right through into the soil below.

You guys REALLY should make yourselves familiar with using ballast. It will allow you to eliminate almost ALL the perched water from soils that would normally support several inches of perched water. What's not to love?

*********************************************************************

H - if you're going to use a hort oil spray on citrus, best to use something labeled 'light', 'summer', 'perfect', 'all-season'. Even though there is little in the way of instant knockdown associated with neem oil, it can be very effective if you're faithful to using it regularly. Neem oil is fussy about how you mix it and what you mix it into. Most people aren't aware that neem can be seriously and quickly degraded by alkaline hydrolysis as a result of mixing it with tapwater, and not all neem products are created equal. So, if you decide to go the neem route, we can maybe visit a bit about it. It's not at all difficult to use when you're aware of what to avoid.

Al

heruga thank you, its a meyer lemon, they root readily, when I pruned I kept a few, dipped the end in hormone and put it in a regular soil small pot, cover with baggie and leave in shade, usually takes 3 weeks or so, if your outside in garden there is that magic humid time when just about anything will root if put in a shady spot, roses, etc.

Heruga, trees get sooty mold every now and then, caused by the secretion of insects, commonly called Honeydew. I find after spraying HO I can quite easily remove sooty mold. I originally found out about this treatment from Dr. Malcolm Manners while attending the Southern Citrus Expo. HO is a very save chemical both to humans and animals, and can even be used with organic growing programs, however never spray a citrus tree in the heat of the day. Spray early in the AM or later in the evening. There are various mfg. of HO, here at are place we use Ultrapure HO.

Heruga, with being afraid of heat, I will usually buy light colors pots too and then I don't have to worry about my roots over heating. I also use air pruning pots that work well too. Also I group them together so that the lighter colored pots are at the edge and darker color ones in the middle.

Too I use a shade cloth on very very hots day for other plants and that does the trick.

There are ways around scorching heat as mentioned by all and hopefully you were able to take some ideas away)

As for sooty mold, I use HO but very early in the morning when i use it. I usually treat my trees first thing when I get them outside from being indoors all winter, and this always does the trick. But never too late to do this if if you get a problem. Between that and sparing them with emulsion from September until they come in, they are bug free all the entire winter. Just precaution steps.

Mike

Thanks for the picture, Al! I realized that I can’t be trusted with peat, so I amended my mix to 60% pine bark, 40% perlite, and left some of the fines. This is my first year with this ratio, but my trees appear happy and are all growing. My tomatoes like it, too lol.

I moved them to the back of my house (NW facing) where they receive afternoon sun. With the heat, they seem to like it better than the south facing front of my home. I have several still in black pots - I’m keeping them more shaded than the others in lighter pots.

It’s amazing to see the high temps in the northern states compared to here in GA - I thought we were suffering! Hang in there, guys!

My citrus tree's growing in black containers get some shade from growing grass around them,

I have a 500 gl rainwater tank and also garbage cans and bunch of 6 gl containers filled with rainwater mix with fertilizer.

Vladimir - I apologize that my commented sounded snippy. I probably was annoyed when I wrote it. I'm just having a rough time with life now and my citrus trees so severely declining has pushed my over the edge. It sounds silly to write, but they were the final straw. I feel like I can't do anything right and I don't even deserve to have them any more because I can't take care of them. I come to this forum because I really do appreciate everyone sharing their experiences, but I get a little fedup with the snottiness and criticism that's been happening.

Mike - I followed all of the 'rules' with making the 511. I used the proper ratios. I used shifted and appropriately sized composted bark and soaked prior to using. I could go in to much greater detail, but I'm not sure it matters at this point. I know my trees were definitely not happy (at least some of them were in trouble) when I repotted them and I did not root prune. I now know there were mistakes, but I need to figure out what to do now. One of the biggest reasons I wanted to switch to 511 (aside from people like Laura showing off their gorgeous trees planted in it) was the rain issue you brought up. In previous years, I was always so afraid of heavy rain. I watch the weather everyday and I neurotically move the pots all over the yard to avoid rain. Which resulted in days of missed sun because I opted to shelter the trees from potentially rain, only for it to ended being sunny and my trees where on the wrong side of the house.

I grew in a peat base mix before with no issues do to over watering or cold weather. Believe me, I don't want to give up on 511 after all of the time and money I spent, not to mention the massive amount of bark I still have in my shed! But I really want to get my trees healthy again. I'm fairly certain that you have trees not planted in 511 do you not? I thought you've said in the past that you have many in other mixes? I thought you even posted a link to it not that long ago. I'm curious why you use different mixes for different trees and why if you love 511 so much, do you not use if for everything? I'm this close to going to the stuff to pick up some promix...I just find it easier to use and it will make me feel like I'm doing something to help them. THank you for taking the time to discuss it all with me.

Al - that's a really interesting idea to bury the planter. I can't do it where I'm living now. What about the spagham moss? Is it worth adding some to all of my citrus with root rot to help stimulate new growth? If I choose to keep my trees in 511, do you recommend adding moss chunks? It seems like it would hold a ton of water, but I'm interested in anything that will stimulate new root growth. If so, how small should they be? I'm guess adding them to anything other than 511 or gritty is a bad idea, right?

I have three potted citrus exactly at the same spot in the middle of a sun baked tiled yard. The last few days we have had really intense sun with very low humidity. The Rangpur lime shows the tell tale signs of light leaf sunburn and I'm moving it to partial shade until the heatwave goes. The other two, a Meyer and a Limone Rosso (really a lemon-citron hybrid whose skin goes somewhat reddish with age) do not show any sunburn symptoms. I also routinely have leaf burn symptoms in some of my in ground grown grapefruit trees while oranges are totally unaffected. Which goes to show that not all citrus are created equal with regards to intense sun tolerance.

Alanna, I'm getting the feeling things are going to be much better, here, for your trees and in your life. I hear you about the final straw, I too have had many issues back here at home also with the recent loss of my best cousin. It's been tough and I know many times I come here for an escape, a place to find some good people at times that really care, and a place to rest my mind from every day problems. It can be an oasis coming here and then not, but mostly yes nice,so hopefully with all of us who share a common passion, we can find the passion to be kind to each other too.

As for your mix, I really can't put a finger on it since there are so many variables like I mentioned above. I suppose if I were there and could see your trees up close, the mix, the roots, understand your conditions and cultural habits, I would find the answer. Been there done that. Yes, I too had major issues with the 511 mix until I understood it better.

Why not try and find a good bagged mix, one like a Fafard Mix that is already porous. If I add more per lite it almost becomes like the 511 mix and holds moisture easier . The mix is from Sun Gro now and two kinds which are awesome. Too Pro-mix is a good choice as is. It's loaded with perlite and dries out fast. Just remember the more I drift a way from a mix like the 511 or gritty, the quicker my mixes will break down which will cause root issues unless I refresh the mix quite often. Brian my good buddy does this.

If I find my mixes holding water too long, I have learned to amend it to hold less. If not enough, I use plastic pots and amend my mix to hold more moisture with something like pumice, turface, or peat.

Alanna, if you understand the 'concept' of using a good structured mix in containers, learn how to work with a PWT in your containers, all the info Al and I share about it, you can custom make what works for you while helping your trees to grow to their full potential. There are ways to use a mix that holds moisture longer and dry out what I consider very important 'evenly', one that I don't have to flush of dissolved salts and one that stays open for aeration for a good amount of time.

I would not want to use a mix that holds too much of a PWT if I want my trees to grow to their true potential. I don't want to use a mix that compresses to quickly suffocating the roots, I don't want to use a mix that does not allow me to be free of worry with rain and watering. I don't want to use a mix that dries out too rapidly cause stress either.

I believe you will figure it and if you have had success with something else and decide to use that, once you see any negative impacts from that, you are well armed with all this info to make the changes you need to make a positive difference in growth.

Why do I use different mixes? I have the privilege of buying some of the best bagged mixes here close to the 511 mix, I also get a bit lazy and just don't care if my trees don't do as well as they should, and then I really want the best for certain ones, so I use the 511 and anything that comes just as close to it as I can. I personally don't like replacing composted bark with Repti-bark because I still have issues using that mix if I don't make it correctly. I like ti mix half Repti-bark with composted. I guess I can work with just about anything because the 'concept' of these mix always sticks with me and I am always conscious of the PWT in all of my containers.

Hi Alanna I posted a couple hours ago but it's forever lost in the interwebs I suppose! Anyways I feel your frustration and I want to offer my two cents even though there are much more experienced expert growers here already helping. I too have had problems in the 511 as you know but I just wanted to tell you what I've done with them perhaps it might help since they seem to be doing better. My nzl the one that had root rot in 511 I just washed off all the old soil and repotted into new 511 in a very tiny clay pot. I didn't bother to root trim because all the rotten ones fell off in clumps anyways.

there was also extensive rot on my satsuma that declined over two years and was nothing but a twig with no leaves for one year so this spring I repotted it into a black container with the MGGS and some perlite. It did put out new growth since, I actually water this one once a week and it's also in full sun. It's the one on the very left in the photo below.

Alanna don't give up on them yet they are resilient little things even at the brink of death they can still make a comeback!

Oh Alanna! Don’t give up! Trees are very resilient so with a little bit of time and care everything will be fine!

Al, I read a really good post that you wrote a couple years ago on the use of hydrogen peroxyd. It can help when you have root rot. Do you think that it could help Alanna right now?

Also, what do you think of using kelp fertilizer? Is it a good fertilizer for plants in container? I read a couple of articles saying that it contains cytokinin which is a plant hormon that stimulates root growth. I am not an expert or a scientist and my understanding about science is just average so I would like to have your opinion on that one if you don’t mind.

Alanna, for me, one advantage of promix is that you can easily know when to water your trees because the mix is very light when it’s dry! So, just be lifting the pot you know if it’s time to water. If you grow indoor I think that’s a good option.

Thanks, Amy! I saved something I wrote a while ago about hydrogen peroxide. I'll share it (below).

Amy asks: Also, what do you think of using kelp fertilizer? Is it a good
fertilizer for plants in container? I read a couple of articles saying
that it contains cytokinin which is a plant hormone that stimulates root
growth. At any given point in time, any fertilizer has the potential of being the best fertilizer. But in order to be best, it would have to supply exactly what the plant needs in the way of nutrients at that point in time and nothing more. In the last week or so, I've referenced what the objective of container growers should be when it comes to fertilizing plants in containers:

Nutrient Supplementation - Objective

Whenever we discuss what is or isn't an appropriate part of the methodology we
use to make certain our containerized plants get all the nutrients essential to growth and good health, we would probably first want to be certain our objectives are on target. It's difficult to argue with the idea that our focus in supplying supplemental nutrition to our
plants should be on ensuring all the nutrients plants normally assimilate from the soil are:

A) IN the soil and available for uptake at all times - so obvious it hardly merits mentioning)

B) In the soil in a favorable ratio - that is to say in a ratio that closely mimics the ratio at which the plant actually uses the nutrients. This is important because it allows you to fertilize at the lowest concentration possible without creating deficiencies, an advantage because it facilitates uptake of water AND the nutrients dissolved in that water. When we depart from the ideal ratio, deficiencies and/or toxicities are assured - no matter how mild or inconsequential they seem, they sap potential. This is also why using elements or compounds designed to relieve a deficiency of a single nutrient are more apt to be limiting than a plus.

C) Supplied at a concentration high enough to ensure there are no nutritional
deficiencies, yet still low enough to ensure the plant's ability to
take up water, and the nutrients dissolved in that water won't be
impeded by an unnecessarily high concentration of solubles in the soil solution. ANYTHING dissolved in the soil solution the plant doesn't need has only the potential to limit. The habit of dosing the plant with an excess of something because we heard/read it increases growth rate, makes leaves greener, roots stronger, blooms more numerous, is a bad one.

You simply can't even envision a better objective than

* All nutrients in the soil and available for uptake at all times

* All nutrients in the soil at a ratio that closely mimics the ratio at which the plant actually uses the nutrients

* The nutrients should be like Goldilocks porridge - Just Right, when it comes to concentrations. The soil solution should hold enough nutrients to prevent deficiencies, but the concentration shouldn't be so high it limits water uptake - especially important when it's HOT.

I hope you can accept these premises as worthy goals; or if there is disagreement please provide a description of an approach that provides better potential for healthier plants. If accepted, it would follow then that we would do well to examine our
efforts at nutritional supplementation in the light of whether or not our efforts
bring us closer to or limit our ability to implement the goals.

For an extremely high % of plants, FP 9-3-6 provides the best way I've found to implement these goals, and it comes from 1 package. Hard to beat that .....

Back to kelp fertilizer ...... I've used it as a supplement to the FP 9-3-6 I've been using for a good long while. I can't sat that it did anything for my plants that I can SEE, but it didn't harm them that I could see either. I think, if you feel it helps, use it. I'm not saying that because I think it would improve on the use of FP alone - I say that because we all have a nurturing gene that needs scratching. There are a lot of things you could use that are worse than FE ever could be to scratch that itch. If you see issues, stop.

I doubt that kelp fertilizer provides much in the way of any growth regulators (aka hormones); and if it contained cytokinin, it would stimulate lateral lateral branching in the canopy. Another growth regulator, auxin, is what promotes root growth and division.

The somewhat antagonistic nature of auxin and cytokinin are central to the practice of pruning. In the canopy, auxin suppresses lateral branching (inhibits growth of small branches on larger branches), while cytokinin stimulates lateral growth. Trees that grow tall with long branches show us that auxin is dominant. Short trees that are shrubby with lots of lateral branching indicate that cytokinin is boss. All plant organs synthesize auxin, but it's produced primarily in the growing tips of branches. The flow of auxin is polar (downward toward roots), so we prune and remove the source of auxin (branch tips) the flow is dramatically reduced, cytokinin becomes king for the day, and like magic we see lateral branching on the pruned branch. I stray .......

Got all that? This is stuff that will definitely help all dedicated tree folk, so if you want something clarified - just ask.

********************************************************************

H2O2 has an extra O atom (compared to H2O) in an unstable
arrangement. It's the extra atom that makes it useful in
horticultural applications. Generally, we're not concerned with
aerobic forms of bacteria normally occurring in container media or on
roots.

Since H2O2 is an unstable molecule, it breaks down easily. When it
does, a single O- atom and a molecule of water is released. This O-
atom is extremely reactive and will quickly attach itself to either
another O- atom forming stable O2, or attack the nearest organic
molecule.

Reduced O levels and high temperatures encourage both anaerobic
bacteria and fungi. Many disease causing organisms and spores are
killed by O, and the free O- H2O2 releases is very effective at this.
Additionally, when plants growing in water-retentive media are
treated with H2O2 it will break down and release O into the area
around the roots. This helps stop the O from being depleted in the
water filled air soil air spaces until air can get back into them.
High O levels at the roots will encourage rapid healthy root growth
and discourage unwanted bacteria/fungi.

.

I know H2O2 comes in several different strengths, the most common
of which are 3% and 35% solutions. Least expensive is the 35% product
which you dilute (to an approximate 3% solution) by mixing 1:11 with
water. I have used the 3% solution at 1-½ to 2 tbsp per gallon as a
cutting dip/soak, and have mixed it into irrigation water for plants
in extremely water retentive soils at up to 3 tbsp per gallon, both
with good results and nothing adverse apparent.

H2O2 in high concentration is a powerful oxidant and quickly
oxidizes almost anything it contacts, so be careful with it if you
use it. A solution that is too strong can destroy any organic
molecule it contacts.

I’ve seen this chart posted several times as suggested strength
solutions for use in watering plants. You may wish to start at a
lower concentration , such as I’ve used, and experiment.

TO THIS AMOUNT OF WATER ADD THIS AMOUNT OF 3% HYDROGEN PEROXIDE
--OR-- ADD THIS AMOUNT OF 35% HYDROGEN PEROXIDE

1 cup, add 1-1/2 teaspoons … 35% - 7 to 10 drops

1 quart, add 2 tablespoons … 35% - 1/2 teaspoon

1 gallon, add 1/2 cup … 35% - 2 teaspoons

5 gallons, add 2-1/2 cups … 35% - 3 tablespoons plus 1
teaspoon

10 gallons, add 5 cups … 35% - 6 tablespoons plus 2
teaspoons

20 gallons, add 10 cups … 35% - 3/4 cup plus 1 tablespoon
plus 1 teaspoon

Al

Al, what do you think about using Physan 20 for treating root rot?

I use Physan 20 as an disinfectant mostly for tools and household cleaning like toilets. A little goes a long way and is quite powerful stuff. According to the label it is safe for plants but bad for fish and is EPA approved. Apparently in a week or so it breaks down into available nitrogen - sort of makes sense since it is a ammonium compound.

Mostly I have used h202 for suspected root rots but a few times I have used Physan. I usually inject it (both h2o2 and physan) into the soil especially the inner root zone under the stem. h2o2 is so unstable that I suspect it would be hard to reach the inner core intact without breaking down. So I poke deep holes using chopstick and use a syringe to reach the center of the root mass. Frankly the need for it is quite infrequent for me but sometimes it does happen when I neglect to repot in time.

If I do see root rot during repot I soak the remaining roots in dilute h2o2 for about an hour. I will certainly have to do something like this for my 20 yr old mango that suddenly keeled over last winter when I forgot to water it for a period. I left it out under shade in spring and, to my surprise, a couple of weeks ago I saw many sprouts coming from three spots. I have given it a dose of h2o2 and in a week I will unpot it and inspect it for a possible course of action.

Anyone knows a good source for 35% h2o2? Amazon stopped selling it for safety reasons and they only sell 12% max. BTW 35% h2o2 is indeed dangerous stuff. Store it in the coolest dark place or in the fridge (not freezer).

Thanks for the reply, Tropic. By the way, I wonder if 35% hydrogen peroxide should be stored in an explosion proof refrigerator.

117 degrees here yesterday. It was 95 degrees at midnight!!!!
Break was today where it was 107 degrees and poured rain the hardest I've seen in 20 years for a half hour. They will survive......

I have 2 - 2.5 gallon jugs in my chest freezer. Something you might not expect is, it remains in liquid form at 0*F.

Al

Thank you Tapla for taking the time to answer my questions. I really love your explanation on cytokinin and auxin!

I usually use kelp with some foliage pro and osmocote plus during summer but I was not sure how much it will help my trees.

My pleasure! The first time I tried my hand at bonsai, I failed. I figured out in short order it was because I new nothing about soils and darn little about what makes plants tick. Since I felt like I absolutely HAD to learn how to grow those cool little trees, I put the trees aside and hit the books (pre-internet days). After studying pretty diligently for about 4 years, I bought some trees and was delighted to discover I could keep them alive. Of all the things I've learned between then and now, there is no question that understanding the way water behaves in soils moved me farther along in my journey than any other factor, by far. A soil you can water to beyond the point of saturation (so you're flushing the soil when you water) w/o need for concern that the soil will remain saturated so long it precludes normal root function and wrecks root health is a real game changer. Healthy plants are only a dream unless we can maintain their root systems in a state of high functionality, consistently. Appropriate soils also make watering stress free, where poor soils can ensure watering day comes with a free anxiety attack. Fertilizing becomes a snap and allows you excellent control of an effective fertilizing regimen, where plants in poor soils are extremely difficult to fertilize effectively, even for very experienced gardeners.

I've helped and watched others help thousands of people on these forums who had soil troubles. So many I've concluded if there is anything we can depend on to be a serious roadblock on our journey to proficiency, it's poor soils and its attendant issues. Once you get around that roadblock, growing becomes a completely different kind of experience.

S'posed to go down to 48* here tonight. A welcome change.

Just for fun:

Al

Since I have access to cheap potassium permanganate I use it for disinfection, soil and pot sterilisation and root rot control. It works fine but can stain hardscape (and human skin).

How much is mixed with water to sterilize soil? Just wondering if the residual Mn is a potential problem, as the mole fraction of the compound is 1/6.

Al

2-4gr per 10lt. More can be used for disinfection of pots, utensils etc.

Al, I like to add a little fhrase to your excellent topics: If roots could talk, what would they like to tell you. Most likely something not very nice.

Did not know that 35% h2o2 will not freeze easily.

Potassium permanganate is also a cheap and common disinfectant in India but sort of controlled in many countries. It is also a strong oxidizer and unstable (less so than h2o2). Also used as a component of fireworks.

DynaGro (the maker of FP) also has a liquid rooting product called KLN. The label says that it can be used for rooting, reducing transplant shock and to encourage root growth in general. I use it for cuttings and sometimes as a dip after bare-rooting. I have no way to confirm or deny whether it actually does what it says.

Bob - I've just been waiting patiently for the day someone would ask what roots would say if they could talk:

* If we ain't happy, ain't no
part of the tree gonna be happy!

* We control the tree, the stems and
branches just think they're in charge.

* The more of us there are to share the load, the faster
the dirty work gets done.

* We provide the fuel for the plant engines you call leaves.

* Every root tip casts a vote to decide what
the top will be allowed to do.

* Top growth gets all the glory, but the roots
do all the dirty work.

* Stress can ALWAYS be
measured in the root system before symptoms appear in the top of the
plant.

ToC - I'm familiar with the KLN, but haven't used it. I'm going to order a few ounces and ck it out. I've done some experiments with Superthrive, and, while I find most of its advertising to be false or highly exaggerated, it does help with initiation of root primordia. Also, repotted plants I've soaked in a weak solution of ST bounce back faster than plants w/o it. FWIW - I've found no truth in any of their other claims, even after doing several side by side comparisons with a variety of plant material and some loose controls in place.

Been working on trees since 6am. Just came in for a lemonade break.

Al

This is my watering set-up, kind of simple. Al, pretty cool!!!!!

Pretty cool Bob Rain water, well water, and dog water. The only thing I have is tap water from a dechlorination setting drum.

Steve

Al - Back to the H2O2: When would one use it? When there is a suspected root problem? When plants are potted in dense soil? Do you recommend using it as a preventative measure on a regular basis, as in monthly? Anyone else have experience, aside from injecting it into the root mass?

I believe potassium permanganate is controlled in some countries because it can be used in the process of refining opioids.

Historically it has been used by sex professionals for disinfection of the genital area against VDs. It supposedly gave the area a very interesting purplish colour..

In hydroponics circle they use h2o2 on a regular basis - even weekly - and claim that it is quite effective in arresting root rot. Perhaps you can do it as a part of your flushing the soil. At the dilutions posted above it cannot harm the plants. You can just poke holes in the soil in somewhat random directions into the soil so that the solution reaches evenly to every part of the soil. If you are going to fertilize afterwards then I would wait at least an hour so that h2o2 has time to do its work.

Interesting nikthegreek - learned something new. I always thought it is controlled because of its possible use in explosives. A drop of glycerine on that stuff and it is quite something.

Sometimes posts appear pretty late like yours did. Although clearly you posted it way before mine above. It happens when the poster is outside of US. Houzz does some strange things.

A correction to my above statement about PPm's use in the refining of opioids. It is not used for opioids but rather for the production of cocaine and methylamphetamine and is listed as a 'precursor' chemical substance in the illicit drug industry.

Hey not sure if any of you guys are willing to re comment on this thread but what is the best brand horticultural oil you use and recommend? I really would like to get this mite problem solved. Something that will not cause yellowing on my citrus leaves and harm it. I found this in amazon with good reviews. What do you think? https://www.amazon.com/Mother-Earth-Monterey-Horticultural-Oil/dp/B001RPVUCY

Also, I would also like to know if horticultural oil is even worth it. I feel like the spider mites are immortal. I've done everything, and I mean literally everything to get rid of them and they still persist. If you are curious then these are what I did:

1) In the winter I shower each individual leaves one by one scraping off any mites on it every 3-4 days.

2) Mist the leaves 2 times a day to create humidity. This was also in the winter.

3) Bought a humidifier specifically for plants and placed it right next to my citrus(I thought mites hate humidity?)

4) Come spring, I released 1500 lady bugs(little by little over the course of 2 weeks) and they only seemed to stay on the citrus from evening until dawn.

5) I see a lot of spiders on my citrus and I thought they would be preying on the mites

6) Applied 3 in 1 organocide last summer and fall all over the leaves which did nothing to the mites and almost killed my 2 citrus

After all this I've done I feel like nothing will get rid of the mites and am on the verge of giving up. So I ask again, is it even worth spending money on horticultural oil?

I use canola oil and soap. It works an I can keep the canola oil in the kitchen not in the poison cabinet.

Thanks Jenny, have you had any problems with this spray in terms of damaging citrus leaves? Like sudden yellowing and defoliation or browning of leaves

Citrus like heat, in the 80s, but not too much heat, especially if the air is dry. Once you go over 90°F citrus can start having some trouble, mostly above 92. Smaller trees with less leaf cover are more vulnerable to getting baked in the sun and drying out.

I still think that cactus and succulents are the only plants that can tolerate temps that high consistently. And even some of those burn or can die in pots exposed to temps like that )

Heruga - No I have not had any leaf damage using either of those products (as directed on the label). I try to spray the trees after the sun is off of them (most are facing southeasterly so I do it in the late afternoon or evening). An overcast day (with no rain forecast for the next 24 hours) is ideal and it should be done when temps are below the 90s. Citrus leaves are pretty thick compared to many other leaves, so that helps.

Well I sprayed the horticultural oil yesterday all over the tree leaf by leaf. The leaves are shiny looking. How long does it have to stay in the shade for? Also if I still see some spiders on it(not new spiders, it has been living there), does that mean it also didn't kill the mites?

Heruga - Once the oil on the leaves has generally dried, then you should be good to move it back (but keep in mind that people who have in ground trees who spray HO obviously can't move their trees, which is why they try to do it on overcast days if possible)! Also the spiders are bigger than the mites so they could have darted away from the spray where the mites have a relatively longer distance to have to move to get away and have a better chance of getting drenched. The oil in the spray should hopefully smother those tiny mites, including any eggs they may have laid on the trees. Although the 2 products I have basically say you can spray "as needed", usually it is recommended to stagger the spraying so you don't completely clog up the leave stomatas for an extended period of time (so the leaves can breathe again) but it will still allow you to control the pest problem over time.

Ok thats good. How often are you supposed to spray though? I only have one horticultural oil so I'll be using the same one

Heruga - You have to look at your plants and see if any critters have started up on them again after you spray. Some insects seem to be more or less prolific at different times of the year and under certain weather conditions. The frequency is going to depend on the weather (if it's been rainy, it would be difficult to spray without wasting product that will get washed off) and presence of any predator insects that might be taking care of the bad guys for you. You just have to make it a habit to check them at least once a day and then take action "as needed". If you see any buggies within a day or two after you spray, just give it some time. There will always be some type of insect sitting on plants that sit outside.

Old fashioned insecticidal soap is cheap, you can add a little alcohol and takes care of a multitude of issues. I do use neem at half suggested strength and often add water to that to refill bottle on a fast followup but only for a bad problem. Garden at large outside: I neemed twice at full strength garden at large, just insecticidal soap with alcohol once, one copper spray and 1 spraying of bonide all purpose all spaced at least a week apart during winter, roses loved it and had cleaner bark come spring all around