Damask scented HPs for NC Florida. Is this an exercise in futility?
cedemas
5 years ago
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cedemas
5 years agoRelated Discussions
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Comments (56)My big "Aha!" moment in gardening came a few years ago, thanks to a lovely garden at the end of my street. It was planted before my husband and I moved here, by two avid and talented gardeners who tended it for years. When we came to this street, that couple had moved and the house had been sold to a woman who, surprisingly, had no interest in the garden. I say "surprisingly" because the garden takes up the entire property. Needless to say, the garden didn't get tended. But after a couple of years of watching it grow under the hand of neglect, I realized what a brilliant garden it actually was. There was not only something for every season, and the garden had great "bones", but the plants bloomed/fruited reliably, were healthy and vigorous. The reason was that the two original gardeners chose reliable, healthy and hardy plants...including over twenty-six different roses. (Incidentally, and as an aside, why are most of the hardy roses for Canada pink? Or a variation of pink? I'd love to know the science behind that.) For me, at least, it was a living lesson in the wisdom and beauty of accepting the "limitations" of climate, and as a result, enjoying a measure of success in the garden. Could the garden have done better if the second owner had tended it? Of course. I'm sure some of the plants needed a little extra TLC. I don't think any garden ever outgrows its need for a steward of creation. But because the plants were chosen carefully, the garden was reliable. All that to say that I've learned the value of asking questions on this forum and from others, and heeding the advice and knowledge of people with experience. I appreciate rosarians who will say, "Don't plant that in your zone! ;0)", and even more those who say, "Plant this instead." Do I push my zone sometimes? Sure. But for the most part I'm really happy for the input. I hope this is "on topic", though I think there's a lot of topics covered here! ;0) And, thanks to all who have answered my myriad questions! Much appreciated!...See MoreCurious about your experience with these old HT's
Comments (25)Personally, the Radiances are not in my plans. I just don't know where I'd put them. It sounds like a wonderful rose, and hopefully, others will decide to try it from reading here. I have Tiffany also, and it's doing very well right now - even with all this rain. Really, all of my roses are doing well, but that was also the case last year before summer hit and with it the BS. I'm hoping that another year under their belts and my improved mulching will keep them from stressing as badly as they did last year. IOW, I'm not overconfident about being free from BS later in the year. Re these old HT's I'm really interested in these that Vintage says stay "thigh-high" or thereabouts. *** you might be lookin' for love in all the wrong places. So what else is new, Michael? Right now my Mme Abel Chatenay is perfectly clean. I looked her up on HMF today, and she has lots of HP's in her lineage, so we'll see. The ladies at Rose Petals Nursery prune their HP's hard after each bloom to force new growth and get rid of older growth that is susceptible to or infected with BS. I don't know if I'll have to resort to that technique with MAC, but I guess it's an option unless she's a total mess. She defoliated last summer (along with several others), but I think it was heat stress. Laura, you're right. HMF does not say Betty has a Damask fragrance. I was reading the wrong line in my scribbled notes. Elaine, do you spray? Captain Christy's pics really are beautiful. Keep us posted on these roses as they progress, OK? We Floridians need to know. Anita, I have wanted KAV for 2 years. I should have gotten her (I tried but VG sold out) last year but was unsure of her disease resistance here, and now the garden is full :(( Hopefully, others are growing some of these roses. W E Lippiat and British Queen are gorgeous - among others! Sherry...See MoreLeaf-pointed Sepals
Comments (72)Yes ma'am, a blog is one of the easier ways to chronicle information and make it available. It's almost like 'writing a book', only much cheaper and a lot more fun. I hope you find some interesting things there. Precisely! Anything that sufficiently stresses any organism is going to significantly impact immunity. It can also significantly impact fertility, ability to flower, grow, etc. When you boil it all down, virtually all families of organisms react similarly to the stimuli they encounter. When humans and other animals become sufficiently stressed due to malnutrition, over exercise, dehydration, they stop ovulating. Remember flowering is ovulation. Stress a plant by starving it, drying it out, pushing it to grow too vigorously through too much nitrogen, and it stops flowering. If you can think of one family of organisms in comparison to others, things start falling into place and making perfect sense. Oh, yes ma'am! Foetida, whose genes tell it to quickly push out those beautiful, marvelously scented leaves, use them up quickly, resulting in their entering senescence rapidly, then shedding them quickly due to the shorter warm season when ground water is available coming to an end. Mix those with the evergreen Tea genes which tell the organism to slowly produce those long-lasting, beautiful leaves, slowly meter their use so they last a long time, feeding, shading and moving water through the plant until the nearly year long growing season comes to an end and the next begins. Can you imagine how "confused" those leaves and plants are? The plant quickly pushes out foliage to use it up quickly, then refuse to shed it once it rapidly enters senility. Leaves which should only be expected to remain viable for a few months are "expected" to last all season long. You know what happens to "old foliage". It contracts rust and black spot. In this climate, Foetida remains healthy until quite late summer, early fall, when, where it naturally occurs, it would have shed its foliage due to lack of water and deteriorating weather. But, the first (and in many cases, several generations) generation hybrids of it with Teas and HTs are frequently disasters in moister years. I wonder why... There really isn't one source of information I can suggest to you for learning much about Pernet's work, other than the 1920s through about 1950 ARS annuals. LeGrice in "Rose Growing Complete" (1970s paperback edition rather than the earlier 1965 hardback); Jack Harkness, "Roses", again about 1977, both wrote about Pernet's Foetida work and what many results were, but in those early annuals, you find MANY reports of how his efforts performed for people across the country and even the world. You can't blame Pernet for the black spot issues, though. There is a famous story of someone listening to him speak of his roses, then asking him, "What about the black spot?" Pernet reportedly responded, "What black spot?" They didn't black spot for him in his climate, so he didn't know it was an issue until others, elsewhere reported it. Ralph Moore raise some incredibly interesting, beautiful and imaginative hybrid Rugosas and Bracteatas. There was one hybrid Rugosa with beautiful foliage; long, elegant, pointed buds of a medium red with buttery yellow reverse. They opened to scented, double, almost ruffled open flowers and bloomed constantly. The foliage was quite attractive and the plant had a decent architecture. There was also a striped, red and white, double, open, ruffled Rugosa hybrid on a decent, bushy plant which flowered all the time. He gave the ruffled one to Tom Carruth for Week's to test. I also grew both in my Newhall garden. A season or two after taking them home, I asked him about how Week's found them and he said Tom had mentioned they weren't interested because of the rust. Mr. Moore responded, "What rust?" They also rusted for me in spring and fall, but it required several more years for it to appear in Visalia because that climate didn't support rust on them, like Pernet's climate didn't support black spot on his Pernetianas. Mr. Moore's hybrid Bracteatas didn't rust for him in Visalia, but most did here. I could only grow Muriel, Out of Yesteryear, Out of the Night (his best for this climate), Star Dust, Star Magic, Pink Powderpuff and Huntington Red Bracteata in these climates without spray. All the others were just too rusty unsprayed. David Austin experienced very much the same thing. He had no idea for many years what his roses did when unleashed in longer, milder climates. Reports were he was astounded to see his "mannerly five foot shrubs" exploding into twenty-plus foot monsters. That's why it required as many years as it did for his catalog to reflect so many of his roses were suitable for growing as climbers. If you believed his British catalog, or even the Texas catalog for the first few years, you had no idea how monstrous many of his roses could become. LeGrice wrote of a very good yellow HT he raised from Pernet's work. It scored quite well in the trials early on, until it was discovered the plants defoliated completely after flowering, re grew the leaves, flowered well and defoliated again. That was an issue with many of Harm Saville's roses and quite a few of Joe Winchell's. So much inbreeding had been done to fix desired characteristics, some terminal ones were engineered in quite deeply. What too few seem to remember is, "recessives are forever". Yes, Pernet's and Mr. Moore's focuses were far too narrow when it came to their "obsessions". Thankfully, both produced some good plants along those routes, and they did push the envelope, but, as with most breeding lines, it required and will require, many other hands over many more years to refine their efforts into plants acceptable in today's gardens. You can't fault Pernet too badly. His climate didn't let his roses black spot. Hybrid Teas weren't yet very strong, attractive plants for the most part. Some were quite good, but the push for the "novel" was so great, anything different was greedily snapped up and promoted all over the rose growing world. They didn't have to be "healthy", nor did they have to really grow well, as the use of chemicals was accepted everywhere. If you grew roses, you dusted or sprayed. There were complaints about weaker growers, but the buying public still clamored to buy them because the flowers were so different and so amazing compared to anything previously seen. They didn't have to root at all as no one sold them own root. The thrived where suited and languished where they weren't. It took many years for them to be refined to the point of being "assimilated into the HT family", where their descendents could be grown more easily in many more climates. American roses didn't have to start becoming pretty "garden plants" until the 1950s. It wasn't until after WWII and the burgeoning new "Middle Class" whose large, suburban lots began making landscape use of roses that any real American demand arose for decent looking plants. Now we have increasingly smaller and smaller areas available to plant anything, and whatever is chosen had better look "on" much more than "off". There simply isn't room to have much else to take your focus away from something "dowdy looking". It hasn't been all that long that resistance to using toxins for pleasure has been more the rule. We didn't truly understand the costs of dusting weekly with DDT, nicotine-sulfate, or spraying with antibiotics and organophosphates until relatively recently compared to the length of their use. It wasn't as large an issue when the stinky spray was applied way out in the back yard where you probably wouldn't smell it in the house, but put it under the livingroom window or by the front door and that quickly changes! It's very possible you have multiple plants of Simplicity. J&P used to advertise them as "roses by the yard". They were offered own root in many cases and with quantity discounts, something not generally done with American garden roses. Simplicity was promoted as an ever flowering hedge, requiring only the basic care and even forgiving of shearing like other hedging material. It was very much a throwback to the 1950s when mail order nurseries were offering Ragged Robin (Gloire des Rosomanes) with quantity discounts for use as hedging. It was in response to that practice with that rose Mr. Moore released Pink Clouds (1956) to compete in that market. Somewhere, I have one of Sequoia's 1957 pamphlets advertising Pink Clouds as a hedging plant. Sequoia produced much wholesale stock for many other larger mail order concerns, so he had a front row seat to observe what was being offered. Kim...See MoreHow many are we?
Comments (62)Count me in, Tea is my favorite class of rose, I love Tea rosebushes because the bush is as pretty as the rose blossom is beautiful. I have so far, Clementina Carbonierie, a marvelous richly hued Tea with cerise mostly so far, I just got her and another thing I adore about Tea roses is their hue and color mutability. Westside Road Cream Tea" a fabulous white Tea that is less likely to get p.m. than Ducher, which I left at my previous residence because of that reason. To my nose W.R.C.T. is every bit as fragrant as Ducher another boon. Duchess de Brabant Rosette Delizzy my neighbor gave me his because he didn't like the floral form on his 2 year old plant. Teas take time to show their best flowers. I guess I should have impressed that fact upon him. but he is impatient and I am mad for Tea roses. White Maman Cochet (bush form) Souvenir Pierre de la Notting. I love those large luscious lemony Tea Roses. Luanne, may the Goddess Flora ever bless her, gave me leave to take cuttings in her rose garden and last night I gathered that red Tea I can never remember the name of, Therese Lovat? perhaps. Lady Hillingdon, Marie Van Houtte Mme. Lombard Cl. Devoniensis the rose "from Devon" is such a lovely white rose and I'd initially planned a white Tea rose border on my property but I couldn't wait to collect the others so planted various colors of Teas instead. and two Tea-Noisette roses Reve d'Or Mme. Alfred Carriere, I just bought a house near San Francisco, Ca in a fog-p.m. zone and had to leave behind these Teas because they suffered badly from p.m in my organic garden; Le Pactole, and Angels Camp Tea, these are both superb roses and I am especially sorry to not have Le Pactole near me. Georgetown Tea our local old rose garden in Oakland has a once a year "come and get cuttings day" and I hope to get cuttings there of these roses that I've admired at Morcom Park: Adam Baronne H. de Snoy (when it grows back from a hard pruning, it is on the border of the H.T. section and someone went ooops! Etoille de Lyon a yellow Tea, which has a delicious scent Francis D. I would guess this is an H.T. because of its heady scent of Damask which is more common in the H.T. class, or possibly a H.T.-Tea hybrid, but I would still grow it, despite my prejudices. Lamarque (the one on the N.W. side of the garden is the California form with larger flowers, the other plant has reverted to the smaller flowered form. I'd like for the A.R.S. to change the name of Tea to "Old Garden Tea" to help seperate it from Hybrid Tea and thus end the confusion that some people have who have never seen a Tea and therefore they lump them all together in mind and speech, and the written word. There is a book called simply "Tea Roses" that has Tea roses and Hybrid Teas lumped willy nilly together without describing the many different traits of Tea roses. Thanks for the thread, your enthusiasm is catching. Lux....See More
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