Post pics please.

Meyers are more sensitive, so it will react even when your other trees are healthy. Most common issues are over watering and salt build up. We are all just guessing without pictures.

My advice is to pull the tree out and look at the roots. Do they look healthy? What color are they? Are they rotting? Are there dead roots in the soil? Is the bottom of the mix soggy? Does the pot have enough drainage? Some people will tell you your mix is too water rententive, but for south CA, I think it sounds fine, as long as you’re not over watering.

Do you have hard water? A water softener? I had to switch to watering exclusively with rain water after my Meyer completely defoliated, when all my others were fine.

Once the damage has been done, the leaves are going to drop. Now you just have to figure out how to keep from damaging it again, so it can recover.

Here are some pics for context.

I drill holes into my pots and they all are raised as well. The water is definitely hard in Socal and i offset with a bit of white vinegar to keep PH intact, but you bring up a good point about build-up. I would think the deep waterings would flush that?

Maybe my next step is to inspect roots.

Thanks for the help.

Dan

Here is another thread about a similar issue and the guy said it was overwatering.

[https://www.houzz.com/discussions/meyer-lemon-citrus-yellow-veins-dsvw-vd~3281858[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/meyer-lemon-citrus-yellow-veins-dsvw-vd~3281858)

It sounds like you are a Organics Best Urban Gardner follower. I am also and it's nice to see that for the most part his regimen works. That is a Home Depot tag so if it goes downhill, get a refund if you have the receipt. It's warranted for a year. I would say check the roots. I purchased a tree from HD and it was a Record Buck Farm cutting. The tree was repotted, went in to shock and never recovered as it should. It may not be anything you did, but the tree itself. My advice is to check the roots and see how they look.

Denise, you found me out. I initially followed the Four Winds Grower's soil mix that Organic's Best uses, and I also use a lot of his custom soil mixes and procedures with non-citrus as well to great success. Although upon returning to Four Winds they have recently updated their Meyer soil recommendation to look more like a 511 mix so wondering if they were getting complaints about it. The industry should also stop branding Meyer as a novice-friendly tree as it seems to be a more finnicky variety than even a pomona or eureka.

The one major discrepancy I see between Organic's Best and the consensus here on houzz is the inclusion of coir in a container citrus or fruit tree mix. I've seen many other nurseries also advise against that due to compaction and excessive wetness but his trees are so amazing had to try. EB Stone's Azaleas mix really helps keep my PH in the right spot even with hard water, but because of the main peat component it makes me wonder why coir gets thrown into the mix. I almost feel that he has tapped into a particular watering schedule that works for him and his micro climate but doesn't translate to others (he's in hotter sacramento valley, I'm near Laguna Beach).

Of course, you could be right and it's a bad tree from HD, but it did begin as a beautiful tree with deep green lush leaves so I feel it's something I did.

My next step is to take some pics of the roots today and ask for everyone's thoughts.

Dan

Just wait until the point you would water the plant following your current regime and then check the rootball before you water it. You may be surprised....

What do you guys think? The roots were definately on the moist side but the bigger issue is that the soil was very compacted below the root ball. Way too much pot/soil for such a tiny root system.

However they don't look to be brown or dead, but then again I'm not a root rot expert. Think getting the tree back into a 5 gallon pot with some 511 would be a good start?

-Dan

I was thinking what Denise stated. It was probably abused or on the decline when you bought it. It's sad but usually true. I would get my money back..

If you decide to keep it, I would most certainly provide a soil less mix that allows plenty of oxygen to the root zone for as long as possible without collapsing.

to me, and I have been growing potted trees for years beyond those roots look like they are expired, totally suffocating and to compacted to allow any oxygen to them to breath, take up nutrients or water. The more you feed it at this point the more stress on the roots and more death is certain.

I would rinse off as much of that soil as possible, plant it into a well draining mix, porous, and not feed it for a few weeks until you see it recover.

I would do a 911, meaning right away. You live in California and with all that hot sun and warm days, it should recover sooner than later. Keep it out of full sun for a few weeks, just partial and not hot afternoon sun at all until you are sure the roots are working as they should be again.

I have never been able to add the amendments you do without root issues and nutrient issues, so my hats off to you if you have some trees doing ok. But I would keep a close eye on them too. If your mix around the root zone on them fail, you will notice a quick decline in them too that will take you by surprise.

Please, let us know what you do)

Just pot it in a smaller pot and water it when it only when it really needs it. You don't need too gritty mixes in your climate unless you like watering and fertilising daily.

Nik, no one said "gritty"..He was suggested to use a better structured mix unless I missed it)

Anyone that grows Citrus in containers should watch the mix they use and make sure it is porous for good vitality of the root system or this is what happens. Clearly the perfect demonstration of a collapsed mix...

Dan, take the time to provide a fantastic porous mix that the roots of that tree will love allowing lots of oxygen to the root zone and I can promise you that that tree will be alive and kicking as it should be again, providing healthy white fibrous roots even there. You can use a porous mix that stays moist plenty long enough for hot climates..

I would repot it into something smaller and see how it goes. Still have the receipt? Do you know if this tree is grafted? Usually grafted trees are hardier than a rooted cutting which yours may be. I have purchased a Washington Navel from Home Depot years ago. It's a grafted tree and is growing fine. Chalk this up to a learning experience.

I agree with nik, your climate is so nice that you don't really need 511. It (511) will drain so well that you will be watering a lot more often than before. I suggest adding something more for drainage to your current mix like bark, extra perlite, etc., to whatever you use. If the combination of ingredients works for Martine Brucheau, which obviously does, it should work for you. Four Winds also recommends azalea mix if I remember correctly. If I had access to the products he uses, I would try it myself, but I don't. It would have to be ordered online and that is just too expensive. Martine's trees are gorgeous.

Who was it that mentioned using the 5.1.1 mix? Let me see.

Ok I see that he himself thought he might. There are plenty of ways to make a mix available around your area to work just as nice as the 5.1.1 mix. In fact,many do what Denise say's and amend their mixes to allow better drainage without the fear of their pots drying out too fast.

Anything is better than the collapsed mix it is already in. Even a refreshed bagged mix is better if changed out frequently..Do it as soon as you can and make sure you get most of that old mix out from the roots, dead roots off, and make sure to surround the roots as best as you can with the fresh mix.

Remember not to stick it into the blazing sun for a bit and hold back on fertilizer until you know the roots have begun to repair themselves..As noted, I agree that your area should be a huge plus in helping your tree to come back again.

Mike - what kind of pourous mix do you recommend for hotter climates? Every time I tried to research different variations on 511 to hold more moisture, most people just recommend adding additionally peat/dirt or not shifting the fines. I find that just creates mud and my peat always washes out. Since I’m in NY, it’s less of a worry for me. I’m just going to mulch the top of my containers for the summer.

Thanks guys for all of the advice. I potted it up in a 5 gallon (with lots of drainage) and amended my current soil to 511 standards (fir bark fines, perlite, and my azaleas mix which is mainly peat). I was lucky enough that the top of the root ball had dry enough soil to easily separate it from the roots so my Meyer is now only in 511.

At least 10-12 gallons of compacted soil was left in the old pot, completely untouched by the root system. This played a big part in the tree drowning and unable to take up its nutrients even with nutrient dense soil (tested).

It was amazing how light the pot was after the change. I could carry it with one hand! And while I understand the concern for 511 in my zone, I plan on hooking it into my drip system once i get the watering schedule down.

In the meanwhile, I've moved my tree next to the shade azaleas and camelias to hang out for a bit until I can spot new growth (per Mike's advice). And while this is probably the result of me purchasing from Home Depot (all my other trees are nursery), I don't have the heart to take it back. Going to the end with this tree good or bad. I will be sure to provide updates as they happen!

Dan

Alanna, some add more ingredients that hold moisture better while allowing the mix to still stay porous such as pumice, coco fibers, vermiculite, turface, perlite, ect.

I am not familiar with that area but many adjust the 5.1.1 with much more water retentive products as stated above, while others use local good quality bagged mixes and yet others used a good bagged mix and adjust that. It would depend on local conditions and environment and what's available in their area.

For me, I would just start off with the 5.1.1 mix and add or take away water retentive ingredients that best suit my growing area all the while not compromising the integrity of a good structured mix.

Many just use a fresh mix that starts off porous enough while holding good moisture and just re pot every year as they should as suggested by Martine Brucheau who lives in California. Spring through summer is the best time to do a re pot every year before the mix does compact and work against their trees faithfully...Even he suggests using a porous mix with ingredients that work well..

But funny thing is that many do not realize just how much a well made 5.1.1 mix can hold moisture wise. If one is using un composted bark, of course it will dry out much more rapidly than a 5.1.1 mix that comprises of 'composted bark' which is what I use. Even the 5.1.1 mix can stay wet far too long if not made correctly for many even in the deep south as my friends have had issues with.

How long a 5.1.1 mix can hold moisture depends on pot size, root ball size, what kind of bark used, whether the bark has been soaking before hand, if the mix is mixed right, the right ratio of ingredients , color pots, how hot the sun is and so on. so many variable just like any other mix. But better to err on the side of a mix that dried out rapidly than one that stays wet too long.

Mike

Mike - Thanks for your thoughts. I was (and still am!) really worried about my recent switch to 511. After much research, I opted to include pumice in my mix in place of 1/2 the perlite, but kept all the ratio's the same. I don't think it will make much difference, but I figured it couldn't hurt.

Today I was digging around while watering (then of course it rains tonight) because I'm am just so unsure of how it's all going to work and I don't think my trees are adjusting well (droopiness and leaf drop on most), while digging around, I noticed how wet the mix was further down the pot. I was shocked how wet it was on trees I hadn't watered in a couple of days! So the tops dry out really fast and are bone dry, but they are actually retaining water. I guess I should stop soaking my pots in tubs of water...

Do you think mulching the top is a good idea or bad? I would like to keep the tops from drying out so fast. The roots near the surface seem really unhappy about it. But I don't want to add a layer of mulch, if it will cause problems.

Also, I keep meaning to ask you, have often you have to water indoors with 511. I can't remember, but I don't think you grow in a greenhouse. I'm trying to find people who grow in similar conditions to me (weather, indoors, 511, a few additional lights, but nothing crazy, etc) to gauge a winter watering routine.

I've glanced at the posts / comments. I won't / can't add much as only a few of my citrus are in pots... watered often and in plain old soil mixed with a variety of potting soils. (They are doing just fine).

Having said the above, I just think the Meyer's nutritional needs are not being met. Organic fertilizers are not [EDIT: as] effective as inorganics for containers. It is not likely that your soil mix has [EDIT: enough of or the appropriate] microorganisms to break down the organics into something the wee plant can use.

Feed it and it should improve. Then again, most all Meyers (all of mine) look underfed this time of the year, so it could just be a seasonal condition. The leaves never improve, but the new ones - if adequately fed - should come out purple.

Good luck!

Alanna I would mulch but only against the edge of the containers. I leave a large circle unmulched around the trunk and only mulch about 1.5 inches along the container edge. I find that helps a lot to keep the trunk dry but the soil by the root tips moist. That worked for me during the winter on my Meyer before I botched up its repotting.

molewacker I thought that was true because that's what everyone kept saying about container growing but I kept feeling there was something odd about that statement. If watered properly the containers are always a bit moist towards the bottom half as Alanna discovered even if the top 2 inches seem dry. Container growers usually won't let their containers dry more than 50%. That means the container environment still provides enough dampness for microorganisms to thrive. Actually during fall and then winter when I kept my Meyer indoors..I had thrown a bunch of leaves in there along with its own leaves that dropped, some orange peels, scraps of paper towel, an apple core I buried down in the mix and some other random things. By the end of winter the orange peels were gone, the leaves were so thin only the fine web of veins were left behind and a lot of the other things were broken down.

When I kept seeing people repeat that containers don't have microorganisms, it didn't make sense to me. I studied environmental science in undergrad so I understand the basics of the science of biology. If it was true there are no microorganisms, then the bark or peat in soilless mixes shouldn't be breaking down at all. And we know they definitely do breakdown lol. The fact that bark chips and peat breakdown and become muddy is proof of microorganisms being present because decomposition is done by microorganisms such as fungi and bacteria. I've looked into microorganisms responsible for the majority of decomposition and they're known to thrive from 50F-115F. Once temperatures rise greater than 120F, another type of microorganism grows and thrives from 120F-160F. The best examples of these microorganisms existing is with hot composting. Organic fertilizing is entirely possible as we see with Organics Best Urban on YouTube. Sorry for the long post! I just don't think that type of generalized statement about microorganisms should continue circulating without question

Kvetch, of course there are microbes in container soil. It is not sterile. However, does it have the right mix and quantity of microbes that convert organic fertilizer to nutrients plants can use? There is not doubt that container soil mixes and soil from the ground differ in the types and quantities of microbes. I suspect that microbes in container soils are not as diverse as those in the ground.

I've found some information on decomposition during composting from the agricultural department of Texas A&M University. They discussed the idea of using laboratory produced inoculated to address the issue of microbe quantity and said, "the number of bacteria is rarely a limiting factor in composting. Provided that the environmental factors are appropriate, the indigenous bacteria, which are much better adapted than forms produced under laboratory conditions, multiply rapidly."

They also touched on the issue of the types or variety of microbes. "Although many types of organisms are required for decomposition of the different materials, the necessary variety is usually present in the materials to be composted, and the organisms thrive when environmental conditions are satisfactory." I can't say for sure that organic fertilizers will come with the necessary microorganisms hitching a ride on them. I found an interesting paper that tested the microbial community of different organic medias used for horticulture: https://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/earthkind/landscape/dont-bag-it/chapter-1-the-decomposition-process/

I doubt organic fertilizers are enough to support microbial communities in containers. Ultimately the success of organic fertilization depends on sustaining the web of life in the container media. So the method should also include the use of mulch and organic medias as a way of sustaining decomposition activity. Organics Best Urban Gardner on YouTube is a good example of this. He uses organic fertilizers but also leaves all the trimmings from his trees after pruning to become mulch. His container media consists of mainly bark and coir along with other mineral media and he finds earthworms in his container soil which weren't added by him. I have nothing against home growers using inorganic fertilizers. I just don't think organic fertilizing is as big and bad as everyone makes it out to be.

Hi Kvetch. I have searched for scientific , peer reviewed papers comparing the effects of organic and non-organic fertilizers on plant growth and was not able to find any. Do you know of any?

Could you give me some links to Organic Best where he incorporates trimmings into his container mix?

Just an update. I know it's only been 3 days but the yellow leaves have been able to suck back in nutrition and are greening up. No leaf drop so far and we've had a couple of lucky 80 degree days in a row which I'm sure helped. The watering schedule appears to be every 3rd day instead of the 7-10 days I was watering before. I'm sure this will ramp to daily as it gets into Summer but my drip will do the heavy lifting there.

My moisture meter is also reading on the dryer end of "moist" which is the sweet spot that it rarely hits (usually always say "wet" and just assumed it was broken). I've been impressed enough to repot a thriving Valencia orange in 511 just to compare it's growth to my other orange trees as a science project.

Starting to think my other citrus are thriving in my climate "despite" my soil mix and not "in spite" of it. The question is are they growing to their full potential with Bark, peat, and coir. I'm not so sure anymore. Sorry Organics Best Urban Gardener...

I'll take some pics tomorrow so you guys can judge for yourself. Really hope this Meyer pulls through!!

Dan

Hi Vlad, here is the video link for Organics Best using his trimmings. The video is a bit long so the specific part starts at 9:35 https://youtu.be/XIIBD-67Ef0

I also found an interesting thesis paper but it's old from 1977. There are a lot of variable factors in his setup though like each of the fertilizers having different ratios and one method of application depended on the labels recommended rates. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.331.4044&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Here are some other ones:

» https://ac.els-cdn.com/S2210784316302868/1-s2.0-S2210784316302868-main.pdf?_tid=17be62c3-c636-490d-b34e-2a41c04d5cce&acdnat=1525579701_f613caf0e69ee3a0ab0c0db65cb153c3

» http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/45/9/1373.full.pdf

» https://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/faculty/davies/research/abstracts/pdfs/2005-130-JASHS.pdf

» https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Islam_Abou-El-Seoud/publication/301196017_Effect_of_Organic_Materials_and_Inorganic_Fertilizers_on_the_Growth_Mineral_Composition_and_Soil_Fertility_of_Radish_Plants_Raphine's_sativus_Grown_in_Sandy_Soil/links/570b5d0408ae8883a1fc48a0/Effect-of-Organic-Materials-and-Inorganic-Fertilizers-on-the-Growth-Mineral-Composition-and-Soil-Fertility-of-Radish-Plants-Raphines-sativus-Grown-in-Sandy-Soil.pdf?origin=publication_detail

» https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/21580103.2015.1135827?needAccess=true

Hope this helps! I didn't read through all the links I listed here but they should be within the organic vs inorganic fertilizers theme

Kvetch, thank you for the references.

I believe I stated it rather well, perhaps not well enough for some on
the forum. “ Organic fertilizers are not effective as inorganics for
containers. It is not likely that your soil mix has the microorganisms to break
down the organics into something the wee plant can use.” However, after
seeing the concerns, I believe that it is more accurate to add the statement
[enough of or the appropriate]… making the edited statement:

Organic fertilizers are not as effective as inorganics for
containers. It is not likely that your soil mix has [enough of or
the appropriate] microorganisms to break down the organics into something the
wee plant can use.

There are simply too many variables. Does the OP’s pot contain the
right microbes? Enough microbes? Is there any activity during the time of year
/ conditions that would produce the nutrients necessary for the plant to
thrive? The OP felt the plant is dying [ref. title]. I still believe that there
are conditions which prevent(ed) it from getting enough nutrition. Whether those
conditions are environment, soil related, or simply related to quantity or
availability of nutrients is difficult to know for sure.

If people want to throw poop into their pots, they have every right to
do so. It has not worked for me.

Molewacker in one of my posts replying to Vlad, I shared some information from the Texas A&M university addressing the question of the right microbes and are they enough.

["the number of bacteria is rarely a limiting factor in composting. Provided that the environmental factors are appropriate, the indigenous bacteria, which are much better adapted than forms produced under laboratory conditions, multiply rapidly."]

["Although many types of organisms are required for decomposition of the different materials, the necessary variety is usually present in the materials to be composted, and the organisms thrive when environmental conditions are satisfactory."]

I had also found a paper that showed mixing different organic medias creates a larger and more diverse microbial community. Mineral medias lack that so my assumption is that there wouldn't be enough of a microbial community to utilize organic fertilizers in a mineral based soilless mix.

If no one had the knowledge on microbes then it's safer to make that statement. But there is information out there, they're just hard to find. None of this information was found on blogs or regular home gardening sites. So I wanted to share that the questions you raised about the amount and types of microbes aren't completely unanswerable.

Vlad I also noticed that I didn't give you the correct link for the organic medias paper so here it is! https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/1751-7915.12354

I do think the microbes topic is important. It deserves its own thread.

Some pics i took on the terrace this morning. Tree seems to be greening up and i spotted 2 new blooms. I'm still cautiously optimistic until new shoots or leaves develop, but hey some growth is a step in the right direction!

Dan

On the organic growing topic:

If you look at most of the research on organic vs inorganic in containers, four things pop out: One is that the tests are done in temperature stable greenhouse settings. Second, inorganic frequently fares pretty good consistently. Third, sugar, vitamin, taste often figures in when comparing and organics seem to do better in this regard. Fourth, comparison is frequently done with one season plants and for a limited time period.

On composting: Uncomposted materials are not usable by plants. Composting is a process of breaking very complex molecules to simpler ones. The proper process requires a large pile of material so that the inner core is temperature and oxygen stable and needs to be turned frequently to speed it up. The microbes responsible for this are different from what the plant medium needs and has a different temperature range of peak activity.

Decomposition of woody material first requires specific species of fungus. That is why mushrooms are grown in such medium. Bacteria cannot compete. Some fungi even digest bacteria. That is why these medium will also decompose (slowly) in containers too. Fungi have a wide temperature range especially on the low side.

The result of composting is simpler molecules that needs to be further converted in the root zone for the plant to take up. These plant usable molecules are nitrates, phosphates, sulfates, etc. There are many species that have to work in tandem. This also happens well only under a specific temperature range about 65-85F. Below this range activity decrease sharply and above it these bacteria start dying. In fact, above 85F roots also start losing the ability to absorb nutrients anyway. Nature has a way to keep everything in sync.

You see, I am trying to get at the soil temperature stability requirement. In a container it is hard to keep temperature stable. It is possible if the container is very large, made of wood or clay or painted black in spring and white in summer. How large is large enough - I do not know. For most container sizes that we are talking about I cannot see temperatures being stable for long enough. In spring there will be a boom and as summer rolls in it will be a bust.

I am all organic for my in-ground plants. For potted plants I do not trust it to be consistent. Plus I do not want my medium to decompose fast and block air in the soil. I do use liquid organics like seaweed in spring and fall when temperatures are more stable. If I use solid organics then I put them in tea bags and let them sit on top of soil -again so that they do not clog the soil. The organics leach away to the soil unless critters start getting interested in it - which also happens. I do this for outdoor bonsai mainly and in spring as a one time application.

So what you're saying is that microbes involved in composting normally break down material into the molecules that are one or two steps away from being the plant usable molecules you mentioned ie. nitrates, pho hates, sulfate, etc? I couldn't specifically find information about the type of molecules that come from different microbes. I think it's really helpful to know the advantages and disadvantages of using both organic and inorganic so I was only able to share information I found about microbe function and behavior.

Very interesting to know how and when you like to apply them because of temperature stability. I did notice a growing nutrient deficiency in my tree during the hottest temperatures last August and September when using organic fertilizer. This must be one of the main reasons why Organics Best is successful using organic fertilizers. All his largest trees go into large half wine barrels! This year I'll use my organic fertilizers in spring and fall then supplement with inorganic during the summer months. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge on this subject tropics! This is why this forum can be so great.

Kvetch, I have been using the Jobes Organic Citrus and Fruit fertilizer for over a year now on my container trees. The trees have grown tremendously since using it monthly. In the past I only used it quarterly because that is all I have read online. I did not realize that was for inground trees. Since the trees get it monthly, they put out new growth in about a week after applying it and I have had more fruit to harvest. I do use the Osmocote Plus for the trace minerals during the growing season and the Foliage Pro every now and then. More Jobes than the Foliage Pro. I use the Jobes because our area gets rain almost every or every other day so to add a water soluble fertilizer kinda scares me.

I also saw many places recommending that too but I managed to read a few sources that suggested fertilizing monthly when it came to organic fertilizer. I'm glad to hear it worked out well Denise! Did they still grow well using your organic fertilizer during the really hot summer temperatures?

Kvetch, to be honest with you, I didn't notice a difference, but then I wasn't looking either which months were better than others. I'll make a note to keep track of that. It is hot and humid here in GA from May-October and my trees are on a concrete patio. I just did a lot of watering and occasionally added Foliage Pro in case the organic stuff was missing something needed. I rotate my fertilizer for that reason. I used fish emulsion once or twice in the rotation. It couldn't hurt.

Kvetch: Pot temperature do fluctuate year round but in spring and fall they do not go very high. Microbes slow down when it is cold but start dying when above 85F. Nurseries like black pots to get an early start on warming effects of Sunlight.

Organics biggest advantage is that is naturally slow release and works in sync with the plants. These days organics include "proprietary blend of bacteria" supposedly to replenish lost ones - at least they are admitting that it is a problem. However, I do not trust anyone who says "proprietary blend".

Even with inorganics temperature can have adverse effects. When it is cool the nutrients just accumulate so need to flush. When hot roots ability to assimilate nutrients slows down too. So need to hold back nutrients during very hot cycles.

Living in zone 7b, my area can reach the mid 80s and at times low 90s in the peak of summer so I've been looking to stock up on white or light gray pots for any future citrus I purchase. I'd much rather have slow microbes than dead ones!

When I was doing intensive research on fertilizers there was a site that has an archive of reports for fertilizer nutrient content. I managed to find old reports that tested whether the product contained the types and amounts bacteria that is advertised.

Here's a photo of one of the PDFs I saved

This is the link for where I found the reports. http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/programs/Pesticides/Fertilizers/Pages/ReportsPublicationsForms.aspx

That kind of air temperature is OK. In the tropics that will be considered mild weather. Soil temperature is important. If the pot is not shaded soil temperature rises. Black plastic is the worst. Clay is the best since it breathes and cools the soil as water evaporates. Wood is the next best. Wider pots are better than taller narrower pots.

Yes, I have read similar reports and makes me more skeptical of the kind of concoctions companies sell.

Denise, is there any way you could do a trial on just one tree and do not feed it anything but the Organic Fertilizer for a couple of years? I'd be curious if alone with no chemical fertilizers at all it would perform just as well.

Thanks!

meyermike, I invite you to join a FB page called Indoor Citrus Tree Growers (growing lemon, lime, orange, kumquat trees, etc). There is a lady who does strictly organic growing with her citrus. Her name is Heather O'Connor and she has a file there sharing how she grows her trees. She would have immediate answers for you.

Hey everyone, the tree is starting to really look nice and green with about 30 micro blooms beginning to form all over. It almost makes me nervous with that many blooms popping out as it could be that last hurrah that occurs with trees acting in a desperate way to reproduce. Still cautious until i see some new foliage but honestly this is about the best turnaround I could've hoped for.

I'll wait some time before taking pics next as it would be cool to get more of a dramatic time lapse as it changes for the better. This process has motivated me to purchase about 5 cubic feet of fir bark and plan on slowly moving my other trees over to the 511. Feel like I've seen enough to know what's better for the trees. Have also had an issue with leaf browning on my key lime that I'm suspecting may be due to soggy soil. Why not take that variable out of the equation?

On the inorganic vs organic topic , really interesting stuff and makes you think. My philosophy has been to go inorganic on the non-edibles and organic on anything edible, but with a container garden that does complicate things a bit. Looking at the EB Stone Azalea's soil packaging, they do include "essential" microbes and mycorrhizae as a bit of a risk hedge for an full organic gardener. Not sure at the end of the day any of that matters and will keep an eye out for any issues.

Dan

Tropic, you said Wider pots are better than taller narrower pots. Why do you think that?

Also, problem with clay pots is their weight.

Vladimir: I was just trying to address the temperature stability issue. Clay pots are indeed heavy. Regarding wider vs narrow - I was less than precise. What I should have said is the for a given volume (of soil) a wider pot is better since the edge farther away from central root zone. Assuming the heat collecting surface is primarily the pot surface (sidewalls), then being farther away gives the roots a wider area to populate. Few inches from the pot surface is where the temperature will wildly fluctuate.

Tropic, you make a good point about minimizing adverse temperature effects on the roots by using wide pots. The problem I see with squat pots is that the perched water table might be in the root zone and may thus result in root rot.

Vladimir: You are right - I remember you bring up that in a recent post. But that can be solved by a tall AND wide pot - means a big pot eventually. How tall - depends on the mix. But if one is worried about perched water then mixing organics will negate most of it anyway. Eventually, we take one pathway or the other.

Brian, you explained that to the T...Good job. That is why when I can not sustain those root temps , I keep mines in a very cool room. I know this most definitely slows down growth, but at least they survive until I can put them out again. Even then, until temps at night and day warm like that, I keep mines in partial sun.

Mike

Thank You everyone for mentioning me in your post. I have since changed many of the soil amendments I use. After so much trial and error. My first every soil amendments still one of the best. The one I use now has play sand added to the mix and charcoal. Here my new channel I am getting ready to launch. Lots of citrus information coming. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx48DVBC31TYVRV6b8BIxxQ