Some real contenders here for Best Sayings of 2018!...

When I see an elephant in the room, I find it appropriate to mention the giraffe also.

ledmond10 nailed it. Samantha posted a thread with the title "Front Door Dilemma" Not "Redeign My Entire House Without Asking"

Because in design, elements are not done in isolation. When you design something, anything from a house, to a coffee pot to a painting, all the elements need to work together to create the whole.

Yes, of course, I agree. Cohesion and proper flow are the foundation of good design. That's not even the point. My point is if the OP starts a thread that just wants opinions for the color of the front door then that should be respected and give her that. If someone reading the thread sees other things that could be improved, ask if the OP would like other information and opinions. I suppose when she used the word "gutted" to describe how she felt by the negative comments it made me sad for her, as that seems pretty extreme.

We are all just giving our opinion on how we would design a house for ourselves ... people need to take note of all the advice and opinions ... think about them for a few minutes ... and then use or discard based on their needs, wants and likes.

The comments are not negative, they are just different opinions on how something should be built.

When people post a reveal, people tend to be kind with comments, because there isn't much that can be done at that point. If the reveal shows obvious design issues then you will notice this because it will receive fewer comments than a house that has a cohesive design.

This forum will never just answer a question about one small part of a plan, if they think they can help make the overall design into a better home for the OP (and their family) to live in for years to come.

A man walks into a doctor's office with an open wound on his left arm, bloodshot eyes, a limp, and his hair is on fire. He says to the doctor, "Doc, I have a cold". The doctor gives him a vitamin C and tells him to drink lots of water and get plenty of rest, and sends him on his way. Happens all the time.

Doctor to patient: "Does it hurt when you do this?"

Patient: "Yes, it hurts terribly..."

Doctor: "Then stop doing it...!"

Yes, of course, I agree. Cohesion and proper flow are the foundation of good design. That's not even the point. My point is if the OP starts a thread that just wants opinions for the color of the front door then that should be respected and give her that.

And you're missing my point. It wouldn't matter if she picks a contemporary door and paints it purple, or chooses one of those faux victorian doors and paints it bright red or makes it wood. When so much is off visually, changing a door color is ignoring the elephant in the room.

If someone reading the thread sees other things that could be improved, ask if the OP would like other information and opinions. I suppose when she used the word "gutted" to describe how she felt by the negative comments it made me sad for her, as that seems pretty extreme.

I understand how she feels. I'm an artist and no one likes to hear their creation is not all it could be, but that is how we learn and improve. Artistically I wouldn't be where I am today without others critiquing my work and showing me where I needed to improve.

With my just completed house, it's the same thing. Without the wonderful folks here showing me what didn't work, whether I asked or didn't, I wouldn't have the fabulous house I do. Did it sometimes feel like I was gutted? Yep, but I tried to realize that it wasn't personal but was done with the best of intentions, which was to help me get the best house I could.

This looks so much more purposeful.

I understand how she feels. I'm an artist and no one likes to hear their creation is not all it could be, but that is how we learn and improve. Artistically I wouldn't be where I am today without others critiquing my work and showing me where I needed to improve.

And my students argue that their papers should be graded solely on the merit of their content -- that their grammar and spelling shouldn't count towards their grade. They don't want to acknowledge that these things detract from their message. A completed project of any type is a cohesive unit -- if one portion is lacking it's all affected.

I agree. This version of the exterior is a big improvement. In my experience if someone uses words such as "gutted" they may not be ready to receive different information or critiques. Perhaps the OP will come back and tell us if she feels different now that she had time to reflect and process. It's her thread, her decision so I will leave it at that. In the meantime, the "lurkers" most likely learned something, that fact is not lost on me.

It sounds like everyone is trying to justify being the mean kid. If you have to justify what you say to make yourself feel better or more important, then maybe you need some personal reflection. Quite possibly the house may be perfect how it is and the only input should be about the door, which is what was asked.

Ha, @worthy, that would basically be my husband's dream home! He basically just wants a box :) He is a fan of this house from The World's Most Extraordinary Homes. I admit I really like it too (though maybe not in Arizona). Again, horrors, where are all the windows?! But the actual space once inside works, and there are wonderful views of the desert.

And the front steps would garner a LOT of comments here about the lack of accessibility and "aging in place" design (even one of the hosts was unimpressed by steps. To be fair...I personally would use one of the sliding porch doors to get in...especially after a glass of wine or two!)

@Samantha - I think your home is lovely BECAUSE you designed it for how you live, and it sounds like you have amazing views out the back. I would go with an MCM-style door. You took the critique quite well honestly. If I posted the elevation of my house here I would gets of negative comments too (it comes complete with a snout garage!), and I don't have the space of views you do ( .14 acres, and a back lane, ha)

That is a perfect desert home by DUST. There was a thread sometime back of a poster whose Albuquerque home was traditional to its area as well.

(I'm often tempted to post a highly-acclaimed creation and sit back while all the kibitzers critique it to death. It's an exercise that has been done in literature, where prize winning books of one decade are summarily rejected by publishing houses as unworthy even of comment in another decade.)

worthy, I have a feeling it would be the same outcome here.

Can I just say that "kibitzers" is my new favorite word? :)

To me, a style may not be someone's cup of tea, but the overall feelings of size / scale and proportion are most often achieved by using a person of design talent, and not using a designer program to self design.

There is a ton of detail in some of the plainest houses, and there are houses executed that are plan factory ones that end up looking NOTHING like the photos because the homeowner let's the builder interpret the design details to 'do it like we usually do", or, possibly that the design details are lacking in the construction documents.

I am sure much of my plan would be picked apart, and it was, but I also gleaned some valuable feedback and made some changes that will result in a better end product / more flexibility. Having an architect meant that I could bring some of my more harebrained ideas to life without it being a giant cluster. (more appropriately, hubby's harebrained ideas, but I digress) but it also meant that the basic proportions, design elements and things that just made it "work" were handled as part of my architect's vision and training.

This thread is cracking me up, though I feel bad for the OP. It's like if over in the veggie gardening area someone asks "should I plant yellow or black brandywine tomatoes?" and then gets a whole thread of folks suggesting how to revamp their entire garden in pretty much every way except for their opinion on if they think yellow or black brandywine tomatoes taste better.

As Janni says, there is a huge difference between liking a certain style and whether a house has overall good design. No matter what the style, there are still certain elements and "rules" that help a house feel tied together in a cohesive whole.

While I might not ever be able to live in Janni's vision or she mine, I still can appreciate that the overall design and flow of her house work well and create a pleasing whole. That is the difference.

Deep red door, three glass panes.

Ok, the new rule on the forum is that any and all designs gets the same answer:

"Wow, bless your heart, that is going to be a perfect floor plan and beautiful looking house"

The simple reality is, don't post on a public forum if you can't handle strangers giving you their personal opinions, ideas and experiences.

Colette - I don’t think anyone has been the “mean kid.” No one called OP names, bullied her, etc.. giving advice beyond the scope asked for, giving constructive criticism, believing she’s making a mistake, etc., none of this is mean. And putting together alternatives on their own time is certainly not mean.

I have to agree with everyone else regarding the window size disparity and chimney/staircase stone pillar being unappealing. If you are happy with it, and acknowledge the varying opinions as to the appeal of it, then at least you are going into it with open eyes. Everyone is different, but given the magnitude of the cost to build, I personally welcomed opinions, good and bad, on my project (and these were made with an architect).

Colette, no one has to justify their comments because people are only trying to be helpful. She did post the plans to her house, so this is not just about the door.

I don’t find it hard to distinguish between
“Should I paint my front door red?” and
“What improvements do you suggest for my floor plan/window placement/whatever?”

And if you ask me about your lipstick color, I will not tell you that your dress makes your ass look big, either. Because you didn’t ask me.

And yes, people sometimes stumble on this site without knowing the unwritten rules regarding tough skin, everything open for critique, etc. They are not exactly sent a user guide when signing up, are they? But go ahead and try to make it is clique-y as a high school lunch room and send people out in tears. It’s the Internet, after all.

I should probably give it up, but I got a lot of helpful advice here over the past 10 years, which included a major remodel and a custom house build (and probably 3 diff usernames). I learned a lot during that time and I like to check in now and again to see if anyone has a question I can help with. Sometimes I have to give it a break for a few months, and I just remembered why.

@rockybird - she posted the plans of her house ONLY after there were various insults about how horrific her house looked. It was not something she opened with.

@ledmond10 - agreed! I mean, there are sites I expect a lot of left field comments and criticisms (and downright personal attacks) going in, but I would not expect someone signing up just to post a "design dilemma" to know going in to put on their suit of armour.

Rai Kai, on Wed AM the OP posted:

" Is this a better front elevation? I'm not implying that we will change it to this, but at the same time, we also haven't finalized our window order."

I would consider this soliciting opinions on window design.

-----------------------

On Wed PM, Bri posted: "I’d recommend posting your interior plans to see if people can help. .." And she promptly posted the plans. I would consider this soliciting opinions on interior design.

It seems these extended threads often drift into the "He said-she said"; "They didn't ask for that"; "The overall design needs help"; "No it doesn't"; "Yes it does"; "I'm intimidated"; "No you're not" sort of nonsense.

There have been constructive direct responses to the door question in this thread.

There have been responses of an expanded scope because the design of the exterior is so out of balance, and the scale, proportions and use of materials are just so wrong.

But the comments have been offered in a constructive and positive way.

The OP loves what s/he has created. But, the OP simply doesn't know what s/he doesn't know about architectural design. She can't see the issues, and after all her/his work invested to this point, is in love with it.

So be it. There's really not a whole more to say on this thread, except that constructive comments are just that--constructive attempts to offer helpful advice and direction.

Some people see that for what it is and appreciate it. Others don't.

So be it.

You know, I really find myself caught between these two perspectives. I agree that it's impossible to be constructive if you're always pulling your punches. But I also feel that there are times when people just need to consider their tone.

I think this remark of Ledmond10's really caught my attention for the way it captured the spirit of the thing, "But go ahead and try to make it is clique-y as a high school lunch room and send people out in tears. It’s the Internet, after all."

I have seen people make some pretty barbed comments, and I'm really limiting my observation here to watching this in other people's threads, because I KNOW how sensitive I get when it's my idea on the line. I'm learning to have a thicker skin about it, and that's part of getting the value from this site.

But I think it's sad that people get crushed in these forums, I think it's a shame that more experienced folks often don't demonstrate a more nuanced sympathy for how home and identity feel linked, and I also think that a more skillful approach could be taken that wouldn't feel so much like a hazing. Something like, "You know, I find myself wanting to give you feedback about... Would you be interested?"

Pretty touchy feely, I know. I think I've gotta go journal about this.

As Janni says, there is a huge difference between liking a certain style
and whether a house has overall good design.

Yes, style is subjective, but many other things simply aren't.

Ok, the new rule on the forum is that any and all designs gets the same answer:

I know you're joking, but this has never been a "yes board" that praises everything regardless of quality.

I don’t think anyone has been the “mean kid.” No one called OP names, bullied her, etc.. giving advice beyond the scope asked for, giving constructive criticism, believing she’s making a mistake, etc., none of this is mean. And putting together alternatives on their own time is certainly not mean.

Agreed. Personally, when I point out something I think could be better, I explain WHY I think this. The OP may accept or reject the idea, but they know -- or should know -- that it wasn't an opinion; rather, it was a logical idea.

The OP loves what s/he has created. But, the OP simply doesn't know what s/he doesn't know about architectural design. She can't see the issues, and after all her/his work invested to this point, is in love with it.

I tell my students sometimes that no one possesses a golden pencil that can only write perfect papers -- they all need editing and revising.

"...But I think it's sad that people get crushed in these forums, I think it's a shame that more experienced folks often don't demonstrate a more nuanced sympathy for how home and identity feel linked, and I also think that a more skillful approach could be taken that wouldn't feel so much like a hazing. Something like, "You know, I find myself wanting to give you feedback about... Would you be interested?"..."

This is a commonly repeated "civilian" perspective on these threads. "Crushed", "insulted", "demeaned", are all words we have heard before, in one thread or another.

And it's understandable, because the civilians have never gone through a university degree-granting program in architecture, art, design, interiors, landscape, et al. The civilians simply don't understand design critique and how the critique technique works as an integral part of design, education, learning and improvement.

To cut to the chase, how many of you have worked on a 6- or 8-week design problem, building a detailed model and preparing beautiful presentation drawings to have a panel of 3 architectural faculty members, in front of your entire class (mebbe other invited classes) critique your design by putting your model on the floor and jumping on it? How many of you have had your drawings and models thrown out the third floor studio window, after staying up nights for a week to finish the project? How many of you have had faculty members yelling at you in a public critique?

That's a bit more "cruel" than any conversations here, doncha think?

But...it's not cruel at all. What these and more gentle, other critique techniques do is to make clear to students and early aspirants of their art that their concept and idea doesn't work and may be second rate. Critique is designed as an uncompromising method to point out strengths, weaknesses, and areas of needed improvement--which the student evidently didn't see or understanding. The goal is improved perception and solution-building.

The critique builds on positive elements of a design, but also focuses on the weaknesses and failures of the design so that it becomes clear that there are many more elements to consider in strong design than just one or two...and that one's first idea (and mebbe second and third ideas) is seldom the best idea. After all, design is a patient search (thank you Corbu)!

Point is, the professionals here, and some of the non professionals have experienced and learned from this common approach to design education, and know the value of a good critique--including looking beyond the obvious--to help improve a design concept and to lift the level of overall learning about how to conceive and develop a strong design.

To the uninitiated civilians, it can seem cruel, uncaring, even personal. It's not. It's simply design critique intended to help the design become stronger and the individual to greater understanding and learning.

Some folks understand and appreciate that. Some don't. That's life...

I chalk some of it up to "the Facebook Effect." Some posters regard their post much like their own FB wall - it's their space, to dictate what sorts of comments THEY want, and that they ought to be able to stop the discussion when THEY are done.

Except this isn't FB. It's a public BB, and different "rules" apply. There is a certain netiquette involved. It's not "your" post - you may ask a question, only to have the entire conversation go off the rails entirely, for good or ill. It is considered "bad manners" to start a new thread when a very similar one already exists on a particular topic. It's considered even worse manners to keep creating new threads asking the same question, rephrased, because you don't like the answers you're getting. Etc.

There is also the issue of posting questions in the expectation that the pros will weigh in - for free, on their own time... and then getting incensed about their "tone." Dude. You can complain about "tone" when you're writing a check. Otherwise, read the comments, glean what is useful, ignore what is not (at your own peril, sometimes) and leave your high horse in the stable.

Based on replies, opinions, and educated advice, while you can make this YOUR house with the design you personally love, about 3/4 of your neighbors will consider it, oh can I say it fairly gently, an eyesore. Host happy parties and they will get past it eventually.

" . . . how home and identity feel linked . . . "

A great observation with deep socio economic reflections. Apply that to all the people that post the "What Do You Think of This Floor Plan I Found on the Internet" discussions.

In this discussion, the OP designed the house herself. My hat goes off to her, bravo! Unfortunately perhaps, she chose a designer to assist her that has apparently fallen short of aiding her in avoiding design errors; either out of ignorance or client direction.

Granted some of the comments here on the internet are perceived as harsh, but it is the internet and it is free. Some are designed to be constructive with a touch of malice and some are pure malice. The constructive portions should be gleaned and heeded, and all the malice should be disregarded without notice.

Perhaps the villain(s) here is the people that have had direct contact with the OP and yet failed to protect her from herself.

(as a side note, the Raven Cafe in Port Huron is a great place for food and music)

Where did Samantha go?

I did step away from this thread for a few days. I just spent 3 full days putting down poly, 2 layers of insulation for under the slab and installing all the radiant heat lines. The floors are about to be poured and I'm tired. Yes, my first response was "shock" as I was just asking about the front door colour and trim and I just didn't realize that the design would be the main focus and under fire.

I posted the front elevation so people could have a visual. I can take constructive criticism very well.... all the "poking fun" at what the bump out looked like to some... very funny to me - although I think some of those comments were removed by a moderator as they disappeared shortly after being posted.

Anyone who has posted constructive criticism, I have not ignored or dismissed your comments. They were all considered and appreciated - not offended at all! It's just that many suggestions were considered and then dismissed. Some things are still up in the air as far as placement.

The fridge is possibly moving to the side wall, as I mentioned earlier and the flow comment about the kitchen is an even better reason to move it. The main reason we didn't put it at the side - as it was already a consideration in the design process - was that it would block one of the paths out of the kitchen if someone was at the fridge. That is the side we would probably exit if we were working in the kitchen and needed to get to the powder room or the BBQ. I figure the island will be our main work space, so that means that items would go from the fridge to the island, stove to the island and sink to the island. We also considered putting a sink in the island, but decided we wanted that to be a solid work space with no fixtures in the way.

The walk-in closet comment was also addressed with my husband. I immediately went up and measured our current walk in closet. It is the exact width as in our plans and we've always been happy with it. But, if moving the wall 6" would make it a little better, it's something we will consider doing.

For those who thought I became nasty in one of my responses. Let me
remind you of the passive aggressive nature of the comment that prompted
it:

"We should all give up, Samantha’s had a cad program for a year and a
half now and is basically an architect. (Also if it “doesn’t matter” how
it looks from the outside, what’s the point of this post?)"

Maybe some of you don't recognize the intent of that comment, but it had one
purpose and it wasn't constructive and it wasn't a friendly observation.
It was a very purposely worded jab at me as a person. One thing about
me - I can take anything you throw at me - But I can also give as good
as I get!!! So, if you don't know how to take a punch - Don't throw
one!!!

We considered the peak at the top of the bump out. The funny thing is, we didn't draw up these plans. We designed the layout and chose the windows. The "designer" that drew up our plans actually put in a 12/12 pitch and it looked like a freaking arrow pointing to the sky! We asked him to lower it considerably and he fought us on that. We are happy with the final outcome. The angle of the rendering makes the main roof look lower than it is. It's better proportioned than that and we are happy with it.

I'm surprised that this thread has continued for so long. Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. We are going with a 4 lite red door with white trim around the transom and sidelite.

Cheers!

Glad to have you back, Samantha!

I think something that was lost in all debates is Samantha had 7 acres with a lake view! That is amazing, wish I had that. And I bet many others on this thread would love it as well.

I wish you all the best with the house. I hope you can start a thread that shows the building process and more importantly that view!

And yes, the red door will be perfect!

Join the monthly in progress thread. I don’t post much there but I love catch up on progress pictures. Unspoken rule is no criticism on things that are already done.

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5281064/may-2018-hows-your-house-build?n=94

So glad you came back and considered some of the suggestions. Red will be lovely. Now you just have to figure out which red. The decisions are endless.

I do want to point out that if you redesign the placement of the refrigerator, stove and sink, you have an opportunity to simultaneously improve the visual of the all of the windows on that elevation. I would consider playing around with that before the window order is placed and the rough-in completed. Please consider the Kitchen Forum and let them insult you, too:) You will learn that drawer stacks are your friends in a kitchen. The appliance forum can be very helpful to understand why and how to select what will work best for your family. Who knew the HVAC guys could be such fun. Lots of resources. Don't stop with this forum.

Faculty members pointedly criticizing a design is one thing. I don't think yelling is appropriate. However, the the thread isn't about me and my opinions. It seems Samantha has gotten what she needed, has complete clarity about where she feels someone stepped Over The Line, and doesn't feel crushed at all. Good luck with your build, Samantha.

Holly Stockley - You call it the facebook effect. I call it being a keyboard warrior. Would you (I don't mean you personally, anyone) say the same things the same way when you are looking someone in the eye? Perhaps. Would that person still hire you if they were in your office getting a consult? Perhaps.

Virgil Carter - I can see you are proud of your profession and all the hard work that went behind it and you should be! The funny thing is that if you take away your profession, and take away my "civilian" status, then we practically have had the same experiences! I take care of people when they are at their most vulnerable and quite often facing end of life. It brings out the best and worst in people and at the end of the day everyone is allowed to feel what they feel and make decisions how they see fit.

If there is one thing that I hope everyone would do in all these posts I read is remember that there is a life at the other end of the posts. (Although some I'm quite sure are "trolls" :) Critique and helping someone is different then being so blunt it is just down right rude, or mean because you don't have to call someone a name in order for it to be mean. I see some great pro's on here that are helpful and tactful and love to read their advice, even when it involves dissection of more then is asked for. At the end of the day, you have to be happy with how you have spent your day because honestly none of know how many more days we have left.

Samantha - good luck on the rest of your house! I love your attitude and am excited for you to get to the end product and to be able to enjoy those amazing views!

I think that I now need to find a new hobby! I'm sure that there are some less intense places to find inspiration and tips for my home! My days are for working, my evenings are for relaxing!

I meant some commenters were possibly trolls not posters. I wrote that wrong and couldn't edit it!

Well, it does depend on what you're asking for. I have a couple colleagues that I refer people to who are quite blunt. I generally warn them up front, though the lady who was told her dog was a "walking Twinkie" was still quite affronted. In part, the sorts of minds who truly excel at very difficult technical persuasions (in this case, orthopedics) are the same sorts of minds who are really both very bad and very uninterested in the finer points of social skills.

My filters slip when I'm beating my head against determined ignorance in my own office, I will admit.

All of us get annoyed when the "civilians," as it were, fail to recognize the full extent of our expertise and - by word or deed - denigrate that expertise.

What the OP regarded as a personal insult, I had regarded as the same annoyed reponse you will see on this board whenever someone implies that architecture is no more difficult than moving boxes around with a CAD program and that anybody can do it. It makes the Design folks grumpy, in much the same way that I get grumpy with people who want Dr. Google to diagnose their pets and think I should just write a prescription for them since they "already know what's wrong and don't want to pay the office call."

Fault on both sides - some responses are overly blunt. Some posters are either prone to hypersensitivity regarding those responses or (while not in this case) posting more for validation than any actual desire for real feedback.

how about this ?

Pros sometimes give conflicting advice here. Sometimes they even contradict themselves. Sometimes people hire pros out in the non-virtual world and then pros on this forum contradict them.

It's true that there are design principles that are incontrovertible, and it's also true that sometimes people have other equally compelling factors at play. Time, liquidity, time in combination with information...all these and more can play a role.

My sense is that linking the appropriateness of internet manners to the legitimacy of design principles or the emotionally difficult nature of the critique process is a false equivalency. If the desired outcome is adherence to a tacit protocol, the protocol should be less tacit in nature and should be referenced (e.g. linked) when the protocol is broken. That facilitates learning and dialogue. So does the Wild West approach. All roads lead to Rome. Or is it home?

That said, my pick for Houzzer to have a beer with is one of the harshest speakers I've ever seen here. This has absolutely nothing to do with getting free design advice. I would just love to meet that person. Pretty sure its geographically prohibitive, but just sayin'.

Actually, it's on the rare occasion that all the pros are saying the same thing that you should REALLY pay attention. :-D

Sure is going to be boring around here since Samantha made a door color selection. . . . . maybe she needs help selecting a ceiling color? Anybody?

maybe she needs help selecting a ceiling color? Anybody?

Copper. Metallic.

I would be partial to wallpaper...

Though critics have said it's much too busy with overwrought and out-of-date symbolism.

Hey wait...what door color did she choose? I must have missed that.

Red, of course.

"We are going with a 4 lite red door with white trim around the transom and sidelite."

I love red, too.

It would be very practical to
paint the door only a stand out color- not the sidelite… and perfectly OK for
the shutters and door to be different (but complimentary colors). Check-out
Simpson Door Company for a large selection of doors that would work.