Pulling up old pine floor, milling t&g, re-installation?

6 years ago

We're getting into a full renovation of the kitchen in a Victorian stone farmhouse, and in pulling up the layers of plywood flooring for electrical, plumbing, etc access this morning the contractor (a good guy) found ...

Turns out the "sub-floor" is made from long heavy pine boards; full 12" across, at least 1" thick, nailed on to heavy cedar log joists underneath. Immediately beneath those is a mix of 1870s dust and what looks like chips from hewing the stone for the exterior walls, so no basement.

So we've stopped for a coffee and to discuss what would be entailed in pulling off the 2 and 3 layers of ply, pulling up the pine planks, sending them off to have a tongue-and-groove added, and having them re-installed and finished. Sounds so simple, ha!

We already know some boards are damaged - cut-outs for forced-air vents, plumbing, etc, but it just so happens that the garage, which was a carriage house at some point, has walls made from the same boards, so between what we pull up in the kitchen and what we could salvage from the garage walls we'd have more than enough to re-floor the kitchen.

Off the cuff, the contractor figures he'd put down a new ply sub-floor and some sort of vapour barrier (aspenite? not sure - he's gone off to get more tools), and/or a styrofoam-backed material for insulation (we're near Ottawa, Canada, and it gets very cold here in the winter).

I realise it's a messy and time-consuming ($$$) job, but IMHO it'd be worth it.

Any pitfalls? Anything we should anticipate, take note of, avoid, etc?

Thanks!

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Comments (5)

SJ McCarthy
6 years ago
I love the idea that you are going to recycle/salvage an original part of this home. You will need to lay a PROPER plywood subfloor (in lieu of the original subfloor planks you are removing) that is two layers to a minimum thickness of 3/4" (check local "Best Practices" for wooden subfloors in your area...some areas recommend a total thickness of 1" or more).

Finding a small(er) privately owned mill that will take your planks and mill them with tongue and groove will be the hardest part. The money you save on wood (don't have to purchase it) will be spent on the milling (should be about the same price per square foot in the end = no net loss; no net gain).

The planked subfloor you are talking about is OFTEN a soft wood lumber like pine or fir....depending on where you are. These are beautiful when finished in a NATURAL finish.

In other words, please do NOT try to stain them. Fir/pine HATE to take a stain. Hate it. So....don't fight nature. Embrace it.

As someone who loves a water based finish, I'm going to step back from that position for these types of floors. I will advise looking into an OIL MODIFIED product. That is to say it is MOSTLY water based....but some oil (ie. solvents) are added to allow the floor to turn GOLD/ORANGE.

And there is a REASON to let pine/fir turn a darker orange = it will appear AUTHENTIC to the time/era of the wood. And besides, I LOVE the look of oil finished fir. It is a stunning floor. Really handsome....but you have to be ready for orange/red/brown. Normally this isn't my "thing" but with soft woods I like to honour their legacy and let them strut their stuff in an oil based or oil modified finish.
bubblyjock thanked SJ McCarthy
bubblyjock
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you for the positive comments!

After chatting more with the lovely flooring guy who was originally scheduled to install the new floor (old growth birch), we won't go with the expense, time and hassle of tongue-and-grooving the boards, he'll simply re-install them above the new subfloor. Yay!

He prefers finishes like Rubio Monocoat (which is sometimes a bit moody with pine - we've already had one mess-up with a different guy - old pine floor over the kitchen, funnily enough - sanded off the urethane, didn't prep according to Rubio instructions, and it's now really fugly and blotchy, particularly at the end of the planks, where it's way darker), or the Osmo equivalent (which he prefers but I've forgotten the name of it), and I'm good with that.

No intention of staining anything; I agree, it's crazy, when the natural colour of wood - any wood - is quite lovely enough. It's definitely pine, and if it's a bit red or orange eventually that's fine, it'll still be lovely, in its scarred age, with the other colours I've got planned for the kitchen (dark blue cabinetry, copper and walnut countertops, BM ecru walls - no greys in my house!!!).

So what brands would you recommend as "oil modified"?

We do need to get some sort of good insulation under there first, though; possibly by using spray foam just around the perimeter/exterior walls - one on the north side, one on the south. Any other ideas?
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Lynn, 3/4" solid T&G hardwood anything creates a very solid and stable construction when all mated together and properly fastened. You do have to pay attention to moisture content levels of the subfloor and the finish flooring prior to installing and maintain an acceptable relative humidity below and above the floor for it to remain stable. The spongy areas indicate that the plywood has lost integrity in those locations due to fiber fatigue and/or breakage. You might also see delamination of the plywood in those instances. If most of the plywood is still intact and stiff, then just replacing those weak sections may be all you need to do. However, if you can afford the additional height, adding a layer of 1/2 " plywood properly staggered and secured down would be the other way to go. The better the subfloor is secured, the better the finish flooring will perform. Remove loose fasteners and use acceptable construction screws or hardened spiral flooring nails to fasten the plywood. Kill all squeaks. Hope this helps.
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As you know, room-length flooring is all but a thing of the past. It's a very limited resource. It would be advantageous to keep it intact. Is this over a crawlspace, (or basement, but probably not so in TX) or are we talking a second floor with a ceiling in place? Reason I ask: you could install strips of subflooring between the joists, like 3/4" baltic birch or other very dense sheathing, and screw it into each board from below. The screw length and penetration is crucial, and perhaps you'd use subfloor adhesive as well. 2x2's could also be tightly nailed up in the joist/plywood corner joint to continuously support the edges. I have used this "strip subfloor retrofit" in several instances in my own home. Once to stiffen up the floor system enough for marble tile. It appears to work really well. I came up with the idea because I couldn't afford any additional height, and I needed to do something quickly. It would be pretty fast, allow the floor to stay in place, and if no ceiling is in the way, takes no demolition. If you're unsure whether it works, try it on three or four joist's worth of floor. It will totally remove all of the flex from the pine T&G, but it won't address any lack of stiffness in the floor joists themselves. A comprehensive approach would be to both sister the joists, and add the subfloor strips. It's also quite possible to number, map and remove all the flooring, and clean it up and reinstall it. It's also a heck of a chore. This would demand that all of the baseboard and perhaps all of the door trims be removed at the same time, because in your type of case, the door frames went in on top of the flooring, and the added subfloor thickness is going to raise the doorways a corresponding amount. Casey
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SJ McCarthy
6 years ago
Bona and Streetshoe make some very nice oil modified polyurethane finishes. Loba has an amber-additive to their water based finishes which is not my first choice (funnily enough). Glitza also has some nice oil modified polyurethanes.

Spray foam (or any insulation for that matter) is best used over the entire surface (in your situation it would be underneath the subfloor - between the plywood and the dirt). There are some excellent options that offer moisture resistance like a vapour barrier would.

A perimeter spray wouldn't do much other than keep the wind out.
bubblyjock thanked SJ McCarthy
bubblyjock
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks! I just read about Streetshoe over on the Wood Floor Business forum, actually.

Spray-foaming the whole area would be impractical, I suspect. It's no longer advised as an insulating material for stone walls, for various reasons. I'm veering away from it because of the VOCs, so we're looking at other options for now.
Love stone homes
6 years ago
Hi bubblyjock, congrats on renovating your century stone home. I adore those Ottawa valley homes. If you get a chance can you show a pick.(:

Pulling up old pine floor, milling t&g, re-installation?

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