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etta_turnerterrell

new garden site

Etta T
6 years ago
I will be starting a new vegetable garden site and wondering what everyone’s ideas are for doing this? I don’t know what the ground is made up of yet so I guess that might be the best place to start. I was intending on just tiling the rows throwing in some peat moss (because I bought a lot on sale) and tilling again. Then I was reading up on lasagna layering for new sites. Which seems will be more complicated than just tilling to me. What’s your thoughts and how would you start a new site.

Comments (28)

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago

    I guess if you have peat moss, you can use it. But compost is generally a much more economical amendment. Be aware that peat moss is quite acidic. So if you're adding it to acidic soil, look out. Also, while compost is not a fertilizer, it does contain more nutrients than peat moss does. It also contains useful soil microorganisms. Peat moss does not. Once you get it wet, which is actually kind of hard to do, peat moss holds water well. So it is a good amendment for rocky, sandy soil that is prone to drying out fast.

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I would till the peatmoss in deeply to make the soil looser with better tilth.

    The peatmoss isn't fertilizer...it just amends the soil texture and structure for the better unless your soil is quite sandy to start with.

    What you do after that is another game.

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  • exmar zone 7, SE Ohio
    6 years ago

    As stated above, peat moss may or may not be needed. Update this post when you know what you're working with. That being said, if you can't afford compost, just tilling (with or without peat moss) will provide you some sort of crop. "A garden is a work in progress," managing and improving the soil is never ending. Get going and improve/amend the soil as you go.

  • floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK
    6 years ago

    Have you started a compost heap, Etta? Your own compost costs nothing and deals with all your kitchen and garden rubbish in an environmentally friendly way. And your garden will love it.

  • NHBabs z4b-5a NH
    6 years ago

    What is already in that spot? Tilling certain types of grass will chop up roots but not kill them and so the grass regrows. If there is already grass there, it needs to be removed or killed in some fashion.

    Peat moss alone tends to repel water once it has dried out, so don't use it lasagna style.

  • zeedman Zone 5 Wisconsin
    6 years ago

    And here I was reading the title of the post, thinking you were going to reveal a new website. ;-)

    For a new garden, controlling the weeds for first year can be a daunting task. I agree with the previous post: take a close look at what is growing there now. If there are noxious spreading perennials growing there (such as thistle, creeping jenny, quack grass, etc.), then solarizing the site to kill those weeds (or at least reduce their numbers) might be the best first step, regardless of what garden method will follow.

    Unless the new site was bare dirt, or had the topsoil removed by construction, chances are that you will not need to add organic matter the first year... or anything else for that matter, unless a soil test indicates a deficiency. I would recommend getting the soil tested, because if the pH needs to be adjusted, those amendments need to be turned under & allowed to "perk" before anything can be planted.

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago

    Although you might not "need" to add organic matter, adding organic matter is always constructive for a new bed. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to take the trouble to till and not amend in that way. For thoroughly composted material, you can plant immediately after turning it in. Certainly a soil test is advisable, so you can remedy any real nutrient deficiencies that you find. Compost itself won't remedy any nutrient deficiencies, but will greatly benefit the tilth and friability of the soil.

  • Etta T
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    I have not started compost pile yet but now that I have the land to do it on I am studying about that now.
    I think the grass is Bermuda, how do I kill it?
    I have access to aged horse poop, just transporting in large dog food bags from father n laws farm which we don’t go to often (80 miles round trip). I do have 3 bags from last year, does manure leach nutrients? Bags have been rained on all year. Even grew a bush out of one haha. (Seed must have gotten in)
  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    When you chop up Bermuda grass, each piece will replant itself. Bermuda is a terror. Killing it is mainly a matter of digging it up by the roots, but solarization can help. You'll be digging it up for years. I wouldn't even put Bermuda grass in a compost pile.

    If the horse poop was left around wet for a while, it is essentially composted. The threat is urea in the poop, that produces lots of ammonia. The ammonia will get gradually absorbed in the organic material, and converted to nitrates, which are great plant nutrients. But, in the process, the ammonia gas will kill whatever plants are growing. After a few weeks, whatever ammonia doesn't get nitrified is gone, because ammonia is volatile. Blowin' in the wind ... So I suspect your "aged" manure is a "go". Certainly OK if something was growing in it. If the manure quickly dried out, that urea is still there, and will make ammonia as soon as it gets wet. So using dried pies as an amendment to growing plants isn't smart. Rain on plastic bags doesn't necessarily get the manure inside the bags wet, by the way.

    Compost is pretty cheap. See if there are any local suppliers that you can get it from. Your own compost will come, in time.

  • Etta T
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    Did not know that about dried manure! Everything in the bag is damp feeling and smells and looks just like black dirt.
  • Etta T
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    With the grass would it be best to throw something over it to kill it over a few weeks? If so how many weeks would it take as I’m hopping to be tilling by first of April
  • NHBabs z4b-5a NH
    6 years ago

    Put down clear plastic and seal the edges to solarize, though I am not sure 4 weeks is long enough. It took 8-10 weeks in high summer here. Or rent a sod cutter to remove the sod and then solarize to hopefully kill any remaining roots. Compost the removed sod.

    Then till and add any planned amendments as indicated by your soil test. Mulch well the first year, both the paths and around plants to help keep weed down unless you want to use a combination of hoeing and hand weeding.

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Well, your bed won't be solarized in time to use it for most of the summer. You could dig up the bed and just to pull all the pieces of Bermuda you can see, and consent to be pulling Bermuda for most of the season. Again, if you stick with that pulling, the Bermuda will eventually decline in a year or two. Again, I would not compost the Bermuda. If you don't 100% compost the stuff, you'll just be replanting it when you amend with the compost.

    In the olden days, there were soil fumigants you could buy at the nursery that would work a treat. But I don't think homeowners are allowed to use those anymore. I used to use Vapam (metam sodium), and it was pretty slick. I survived, though the MSDS for that stuff is kinda scary.

    Oops, I didn't mean to "like" myself ...

  • exmar zone 7, SE Ohio
    6 years ago

    Bermuda Grass! Forget my earlier comment about just till and plant. I'd set this year aside to just getting rid of that and then soil prep in the fall for next year's garden. That being done, if your garden is surrounded by bermuda grass lawn, it'll be creeping in forever, but is managable. Heartily agree with "each piece will replant itself." The only thing I've seen that's worse is horseradish. Good luck.

  • daninthedirt (USDA 9a, HZ9, CentTX, Sunset z30, Cfa)
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Nah, just till and plant. The Bermuda will be a PIA, but your garden will produce. Again, if you take the trouble to pull religiously (which you'll have to do anyway from the Bermuda that surrounds the bed), it will eventually lose interest.

  • floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK
    6 years ago

    Etta, start the pile right now and do the 'studying' as you go along. It's not hard. Basically just put all the kitchen and garden rubbish you generate into a pile somewhere. Don't waste any time before getting going. While you are 'studying' your first batch of compost could be already in the making.

  • dirt_tracker Alabama Zone 8A
    6 years ago

    How big of a garden? One thing you might consider is to first till shallow but just deep enough to uproot the bermuda grass. Then get a stiff rake or cultivator and rake out all of the grass that you can find. It will be easier to find if it's not turned in deeply. Sure there will be roots deeper...that'll be something to pick out later...but getting the bulk of the top growth out to begin with will be easier and might give you a head start on things. Once you get it cleared up and start planting things be sure and cover all the tilled area with "something" to create shade. Maybe plant some buckwheat in bare spots (cut it and let it lay there a few days after blooming or cut the tops out and let it re-regenerate for another batch of organic matter. Anything to help discourage the bermuda grass by shading the ground. Be sure and till a buffer border around the area that you intend to plant to discourage the neighboring bermuda from invading the garden area...every so often during the summer run the tiller around the border and pick out bg runners. Best wishes!!!!

  • Etta T
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    Great idea fir ground cover. The size will be 5 beds (not raised) 3x10 or 15’,
    I will mulch with pine straw in each bed and leaving a 3’ to 4’ space between each to get mower threw. Any thoughts on this?
  • Etta T
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    I just had surgery last week and will be a couple weeks before I can get back out in yard, I am saving coffee grounds, egg shells and mail to be shredded already. I have lots of leaves dead in yard to rake (wonder if I can talk husband into raking hahaha)
  • floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK
    6 years ago

    Great start. What about your fruit peels? Veg trimmings? Absolutely everything can go into it.

  • dirt_tracker Alabama Zone 8A
    6 years ago

    Etta, if you have a good mulching mower that will probably work good. On the other hand, if you have a side-discharge mower then you'll end up throwing grass into one of the beds as you mow between them.

    Some people would say that leaving 3-4 feet between beds is using up area that you could use for planting...which is true. BUT, the older I get (and I ain't *that* old<grin>) the more I see to be unsteady and the extra room would let me squat down beside a plant much easier than a 2' wide path. Also, if you plant your beds somewhat densely then some of the plants will grow out into the paths. I like a wide path. :)

    I hope your recovery time is short but complete. Take it easy and follow the doctor's orders!!

  • Etta T
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    oh i didn't even think of that dirt_tracker, I will have to ask husband, it is a new one, so I have no idea, I know its a zero turn but i was wanting to get a bag for it to catch grass for my compost too.

    Yes I want room to move in the garden, at my last spot I only had 1 or 2 feet between raised beds and when I bent down to pick on the other bed would poke me.. lol So I swore my next place I would make them wider! I love the beauty of a garden and having them crammed also isn't as pretty ;)

  • dirt_tracker Alabama Zone 8A
    6 years ago

    I hear you on the room to move around in...gardening is supposed to be fun...not a tight-rope walk. ;)

    I was thinking that if you didn't want to mow between the beds maybe you could layer down some newspapers and cover with woodchips if you could find a tree service close by...or something similar. Or maybe just fill in between the beds with the same thing that you're mulching them with...pine straw. Just a thought. :)

  • Etta T
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    Ok I told y’all my grass was Bermuda but my father n law says it’s bahaia. What do y’all think?
  • dirt_tracker Alabama Zone 8A
    6 years ago

    Don't get me to telling a tale!!!<grin> If it was summertime and in bloom it'd be easy to tell. It looks a lot like my grass which is predominately bahia...and weeds. ;) One things for sure, you'd be a lot better off with bahia!!!

  • wayne_5 zone 6a Central Indiana
    6 years ago

    etta, I would just have a solid garden and not have enroaching grass between all the beds...I'm 83 and don't need a mile to operate in. Some may not be as blessed.

  • dirt_tracker Alabama Zone 8A
    6 years ago

    Wayne, you've got a very good point. With a solid tilled area you have four edges to battle grass from...but with five beds you have twenty sides. Nice catch, Wayne. With a raised bed with a wood or stone/brick/cement border it might be different, but at ground level I can now see a problem with the grass invading. Last year was my first garden in years...and my first garden that produced a sizable crop of anything. I used wide rows 3' wide that were raised (dirt pulled from the paths) and no borders. The paths between rows were two feet wide. The ground that the vegetable plants didn't shade and keep grass and weeds to a minimum I used a scuffle hoe to slice off the grass and weeds that grew there. The cowpeas went crazy and covered the path between the two rows of them quiet nicely. Melons covered their own rows. Okra gave off pretty good shade and there wasn't a lot growing beneath them. Tomatoes got pinestraw mulch. The grass invasion that you mention Wayne was definitely seen as it ventured in from the mass of grass outside of the garden/tilled area. I had a small apron/buffer around the garden last year...I'm planning on a wider one this year.

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