I get the impression your drawing is not to scale. With removal of the peninsula and relocating the TV it is possible you could manage a "dog-leg" island/table that won't impede traffic flow from the sink to that opening opposite it. Depends on how much room there is around the stairs. I've not really seen an island/table that seats more than 8 and they're huge.

The seating would be all the way around the island, not just on one side. And it is drawn close to scale. The drawing was a quick sketch, but the measurements should be pretty accurate.

Could you explain the "dog-leg" shape -- I don't think I know what you're suggesting. Thank you!!

Is one square equal to one foot? I ask because, if so, there is less than 18 inches on the right side of the island to the wall and only 3 ft from the cabinets to the island. I don't see how you are going to get seating all the way around the island. I'm going by your green outline.

Yes. The one square is one foot. The island has 12" overhang on all 4 sides. So on the side with the 18", that would be a fixed bench seat mounted to the wall. All the other seating would be stools that could be pulled under the overhang when not in use.

It's a terrible idea?? I appreciate your help.

If you are planning to cook for 12 people, as opposed to ordering in, I suggest a Certified Kitchen Designer. The amount of storage and prep space needed is not sufficient in your plan.

Well, it's a ski condo, so people gather with their families. I'm not sure whether the cooking part or the dining together part is the more important function. When we're together with family there, we do simple big meals (chili in the crock pot or pasta), and it would be so nice to all eat together instead of in shifts. But I see what you're saying about the cooking part... We rent it out, so I want to make it enjoyable to groups with different priorities.

It's already cramped, so I hadn't thought that I might be making that worse...

We're considering a Kitchen Designer, but budget is an issue since the kitchen is one of many projects. Do most CKD's need to be local and see the space in person? -- this place is about 90 min from even a modest-sized city, so we're having a huge problem finding contractors of any kind (not to mention finding ones we trust to work with).

Wow, you all are full of amazing ideas. I will have to play around with all these suggestions. I really appreciate the help.

So you're suggesting that I put a 12" cabinet base on the wall on the right side of the picture that overhangs and put seating there? This is the only eating space in the condo, so wouldn't that decrease the total seating to just a few seats?

Maybe I need to scale back the "island" to be just a table that seats 10. It could be narrower (without the cabinets underneath). There's a sacrifice in storage there, but a gain in walking space.

And such a great point about the refrigerator getting in and out! There's also a front door (not pictured), but the stairwell up to it is tiny. You're right that we need to be able to replace it out that back door. So glad you pointed that out!

(I honestly have NO IDEA how we get appliances into this place -- you should see the small staircases! And it's a 4th floor walk up!)

Perhaps your best solution would be to install a straight run of stairs against that wall right of the spiral and regain some floor space. A "dog leg" item has a bent or angle to it like a dog's hing leg. I was thinking to start the island just at the sink/dishwasher junction and then curve it toward the TV wall, using stools rather than chairs. This angle example is not large enough and it is round, but you can see what I mean by the angle. This one is bistro height, which I would not encourage, but some simple Asian stools like these would take up very little footprint and could be slipped under the table portion,

The Woodshop of Avon · More Info

The Woodshop of Avon · More Info

It would be awesome to move the stairs, but we can't seem to make that work with the rest of the spaces -- it destroys the room above it. I'll keep playing with it.

I had not at all considered angling the island like that. Clever... I'll work on my drawings again to try all these ideas.

And those types of small stools are just what I've been looking at.

We've rented condos and homes for vacations with extended families regularly. I suggest you aim for 3-4 counter seats and a table for 6. We often end up playing cards or board games and that would be difficult and uncomfortable to do at a gigantic island.

Is the spiral staircase the only access to your upper level? You might seriously consider replacing that with something safer. I read on a blog recently (maybe Emily Henderson's ?) that spiral staircases are quite unsafe. If you're renting this condo out the last thing you need is a liability.

Wow, that would be so helpful! I just scoured my drawings, and I think these are all the measurements I have:

The width of the kitchen = 126"

The space widens past where that hall meets it, and at the spiral stairs the room width= 154"

The wall on the right side is 108" long. the first (approx) 40 inches includes the door to the pantry.

The distance from the top wall to the edge of the spiral stairs = 203"

The ceiling is 96".

The door at the top of the drawing is a 32" left-hinge door. I don't have it's specific measurement, but it's left-side frame ends approximately 48" from the right wall.

The window on that top wall is 29.5" from the Left wall. It is 46" wide.

The window above the sink is 36" wide. The sink (and window) are centered 138" down that left wall from the top of the drawing.

There is very close to 72" of clearance on the left side of the spiral staircase to the left wall.

Current sink = 36"

Current Oven = 30"

Current Refrigerator=33"

I'm sure I missed something. I may have it but just didn't get it down...

That's interesting, benjesbride. Maybe less seating is just fine. It currently has 4 counter seats and a 6-person table, and I hate it :), but I think that's because the peninsula is so awkward. Maybe it is so small that weekend renters won't mind having to eat in shifts and on their laps on the nearby sofa. (sigh)

We are putting in a better table for games upstairs, but that table probably won't serve as extra kitchen seating because I really can't see anyone carrying even a plate up those stairs. The stairs really are tight -- I will have to look into the safety aspects. But so far moving the stairs isn't something at works at all in the two rooms that would be impacted. I'll keep working on it, though.

What's in this purple area?

A bathtub.

I love the idea of multi-use features, and I'm super interested in the various ideas you're mentioning.

I'm so sorry if my numbers aren't working. Here's the info on at left-side wall that I have:

The entire wall is 34' long, and the half that's not shown is the living area.

The current peninsula starts at 156" from the wall at the top of the drawing and is 36" wide. Continuing down that wall, in about 36' farther, you're directly across from the center of the staircase. From there, it's 5 ft to the next window (which is 69" wide) and then 48" for a wood stove in the corner.

On the other wall, the room is adjacent to a bathroom, so the purple is exactly where the bathtub is.

Again, thanks so much.

OK, here is layout to scale as best I can determine. I used your photos and measurements but you have to do careful verifications since some of the dimensions weren't available. (size of circular stairs, etc.). I think you would be best served with a large table in the kitchen area that can expand so you could seat 10 with a bench and chairs. That would still leave "walking" space along the main wall with the sink. I moved the TV because it is in the worst possible place for viewing and furniture arrangement. I like the idea of getting rid of the circular staircase, but not sure that is in the budget, so I kept it for now. I think it is fairly self-explanatory, but feel free to ask questions. If you want to seat 10, you can't do that and have cabinets or anything along the wall opposite the sink. So I used a bench along the wall in the kitchen, so when smaller groups, you can slide the table so the bench is under it and have more room. I don't like benches, but for this type place with casual living, it could work. I also think the wall space under the overhang for the second floor, is underutilized to I put the TV there with a console and the furniture arrangement then works pretty well with somewhat undersized furniture. I don't know what is on that end of the condo, so don't know if there is a door/slider to a patio? etc. But this is a fairly good start and it is to scale. 1/4"=1' (as you view on Houzz, each little square is equal to 1 sq. ft.)

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Would it be feasible to flip the layout? I suppose it depends on priorities--eating together, storage, and ease of cooking versus open space in the seating/TV area. I'm all about the kitchen. ;)

In the following plan, the fridge is convenient to the living area, and the range is out of the traffic. Clean-up is to the side, so that a helper or helpers can load and unload the DW, or gather dishes to set the table, without interfering in prep and cooking tasks. There are two nice prep areas on each side of the sink.

This plan does not take window placement on the far wall into consideration (if there is a window, and assumes venting for the range can go on that wall. There is space between the fridge and range hood for a MW.

My apologies to Flo Mangan for pirating the plan after her initial hard work.

Flo Managan, thank you so much. I love how much better the flow of the whole room is in your drawing. And I think you are exactly right about the table size, seating, and spacing. I like the idea of the bench that can be tucked under to generate more space when the extra seating isn't needed. I think this is just the insight I needed. Thank you so so much.

And thanks for the ski rack link -- the skis can live in a storage closet on the first floor (we're on the 4th), but you're exactly right that we need many, many hooks for all the gear that comes in wet with snow.

I spent more time trying to figure out how to move the stairs, and have contacted a stair designer to help -- maybe we can figure out how to get those moved, which would create more options. But for now, I think you've really shed some light on possible solutions!

Mama goose, thanks for another way to look at the whole space! I actually love the idea of distributing the space that way (larger kitchen, cozier den). I'm not sure that a flip like that is in the cards for practical reasons, but I'm going to spend some time with your drawing to consider all the possibilities. It's always nice to get a fresh view.

Gretchen, Flo's version is better than what you have but you can't get seating like you want with the kitchen where it is. I'm sorry but 4' between the counter and the table is not nearly enough space.

For a one person kitchen aisle space needs to be 42". Then add a seated person and you need more than the 6" that is noted there. If a person is seated at the table, it gives the server barely 2' of space to walk past. Minimum space to walk past a seated person is considered to be 44"

If you can flip your condo around, Mama's idea is much more functional and workable. To make it even more functional you could then build in banquet seating along the back wall and push the table further against the wall.

Is the bath tub the only tub/shower in the condo?

Is it possible this is not the original kitchen, but maybe a mid-late 80s reno? I wonder by looking at the ceiling if there was once a smaller kitchen with a dining nook under the ceiling fan. Just a thought. Doesn’t really impact your plan.

Your kitchen is only 10’6”x 12’ are you planning on doing some structural work

Thanks, everyone. I do think Flo has seized upon the harsh reality of the situation. It's an old condo that was built with a tiny, awkward kitchen, and an even more awkward spiral staircase. We are not planning structural work (with a possible exception if a designer can figure out a possible placement for a staircase).

That is the only tub in the condo. There is another shower stall, though.

I do think it's the original kitchen -- but I could be wrong.

Cpartist, thanks for including all those minimum distances -- it is good to have those as a reference going forward so I don't make big mistakes.

Flipping the room is tempting, but the more I look at it, the more unlikely it seems. I didn't send all the info on that half (I didn't realize anyone would be working on designing over there!), so there are some important features that make that unlikely to work out -- two huge windows that are only about 18" from the floor, a wood stove, and the front door all are problems.

But I still do appreciate all the ideas everyone has sent! It helps me to think more broadly about the space -- for example, if I moved the TV and the sofa entirely from the space (up into the loft above), maybe this whole space could be a kitchen (kept in it's current location) and a dining area where the sofas now are? Maybe it would be awesome to have a big farmhouse table next to the crackling woodstove.... Is that better/more important for family gathering than a sofa and TV? (I think it depends on how much you like your family ;)

I obviously didn't mean to withhold helpful information! :) Here's a blank copy of the basic first-floor layout that I made. It's not perfect, but I did it as accurately as I could at the time, knowing that I would have to make a lot of decisions about the renovation remotely (we live 23 hours away). The current kitchen layout is in pencil, but you can probably make it out.

Again, thank you to everyone for putting your eyes (and brains!) on all of this and sending me some ideas. It has been wonderful, and I'm very grateful.

Can't really read your writing but this helps a bit, however, I simply don't see investing a lot of money in this unit unless others in the area are doing the same and the cost/benefit is there. Of course, there is also the challenge of managing the work, long distance. I wouldn't even think about it, unless you could take 3-4 months and live on site while these changes are being made. It is a very difficult situation and I hope you can figure out what is best for your budget and overall return on investment.

You're right -- it doesn't make sense to invest a lot. We are mindful of that. But we do a have budget to make it more functional while we're there, and the kitchen is obviously a priority. Flooring is another. But I completely agree that a structural remodel is not in the cards. I think your first plan is a wonderful solution, and you really took my crazy thoughts and added needed practicality.

As for managing remotely -- I'm already filled with dread. But we do have a GC that we like and trust (so far!), so we will work with what we have. We plan on traveling out few times, but can't really imagine keeping our three little kids there while it's under construction and there's no kitchen!

The pictures do make it look kind of dreadful!! I should post some of the short walk to the slopes and the beautiful views so it's more clear why it's worth the trouble and the investment. :) You all must think I'm insane.

IMO the best way to handle a remote location when you can't be there often enough, is to hire a kitchen designer. Then part of his/her functions would be to oversee the installation. No matter how qualified your builder is ...it is better to have an onsite presence. The KD can design the kitchen and then go there daily to make sure the construction follows the design and can be there for the inevitable hiccups that happen during construction. I strongly suggest that you have someone in addition to the builder do the oversight, otherwise it is very likely that there will be deviation from your plans.

Having a GC you trust is good, but no one cares about your property but you. If you have a friend or someone in the area, who could be your eyes and take photos and help you manage from afar that would be very helpful. In my layout, what I did, was keep the sink, dishwasher and range in the same relative positions to avoid having to move any plumbing, gas or electrical lines. Of course, if you could remove the circular stairs and install a stairway to that second floor area, get that done so your flooring can be done after that is done. Is there just the loft above? A bedroom? Is this where the other shower is? Or are the bedrooms all on that main floor?

@Denita - great minds! Both of us are thinking the same thing. Very important and if you could get a kitchen designer to do that for a reasonable price, that would be fantastic, because kitchens are where every little detail is critical to installation. Takes careful on site measurements and responsible providers.

@Flo...it's because we have real world experience with builders and construction!

Oh yes, for sure. We know that if you don't have eyeballs with influence on site every day, you don't have any idea what is getting done, or not getting done!

I have a similar situation in my apt. I solved it by doing a custom table on wheels with

an storage bench that is stored under the table, we normally use the table against the wall but when we have company we pulled the table out and have seating for 8

if you follow Flo Mangan's design above you may want to consider this idea with the materials of your choosing

Very cool Anthony! Love it. As a minimum, they could do a bench with storage. However, those are quite as comfortable. But good options. Might be a bit too costly for this reno.

I had thought of the same idea Gretchen to have the living room becoming the dining area but I was thinking more like a breakfast bar intersecting with your stairs to allow as many of your guest to eat

Anthony, that's a cool solution -- thanks for sharing the diagram and the photos!

Claire, what would the key difference be in setting up a "breakfast bar" style eating area -- just trying to picture whether it's counter-height or narrow or???

Denita, I hadn't realized that overseeing installation would be another perk of getting a kitchen designer. I have some (really bad) real world experience with contractors, too. I'm trying not to let that paralyze me with fear. So mitigating that risk is important to me. We do have awesome property managers who live downstairs and I know would be happy to check on the progress daily for us, so I'll definitely being doing that as well.

Flo, the upstairs has an open loft space on the half over the living room, and a third bedroom on the other side over the kitchen. No water plumbing up there of any kind. These upstairs rooms look ok on paper, but the ceiling height is crazy -- only 7" high at the apex (which is only 4 feet wide), and then sloping to 4 feet at the walls. So the spaces are very restrictive in terms of moving the stairs. The other two bedrooms and the two bathrooms are on the first level.

As much as I dislike the circular stairs, given what you just said, I would nix the replacement of the circular stairs. They are inconvenient and difficult but going to be quite expensive to change out. Concentrate on comfort and better utilization of the space downstairs. If you can get the property managers to take photos, that would be great. Have them take initial photos for "before" shots too if you aren't there before work starts. Ask them to go clockwise around the spaces from far back and close ups on areas of concerns. that way each time you review them, they will be in the same relative order. Really helps. Good luck. The trick here is to select EVERYTHING BEFORE any work begins. Get the pricing and labor to install completely understood. Then you will at least be close to original budget.

Flo, you have been so helpful -- I just clicked on your profile and realized that we're practically neighbors (I'm in Pearland, TX!). Wish you were closer to the house we're actually working on here (which is in Utah). But if we ever get back to working on our Texas house, you will DEFINITELY hear from me. Such a small world!

Picture Anthony’s table as which is actually like an island but no cabinets in the living room.