And I answered very cleary why!! And I also stated the same in my original post - we were not able to afford it then and even less so now.

Lordy, re-read what I wrote before you start taking offense!

Our own stories aren't as relevant to kids today as we might wish LOL. They're living in a completely different economic environment. Back in the day, we were able to get a good job at age 18, armed only with a high school diploma, and move into our own cute apartment. Today, minimum wage jobs will barely pay the expense to get to and from those jobs. Full-time adult workers at some stores (Walmart comes to mind) have to rely on food assistance programs to feed their families. Many young people live at home through their twenties today. If I had a child living at home, I would do everything I could to help that child get further ahead in life, I would give that child all the support I could. The GPS monitoring is an entirely different matter. It is controlling, intrusive, and bat crap crazy.

eld6161 makes a good point that higher rents and other expenses of living, and much much higher education costs, paired with wages from entry level positions that have changed little over the past several decades, makes it so that achieving financial independence is much more difficult than is was in the past. Especially given that a college degree is more or less required for any job that could lead to financial independence.

However while I think that financial independence is one necessary component of being an adult, that now often does take longer to achieve, it is not enough in and of itself, IMHO, to be an "adult". Being able to cook for yourself, being able to buy your own clothing, dress yourself and do your own laundry, being able to have a credit card as a convenience and not carry a balance on it, being able to read an entire book, and write in coherent manner, being able to balance your checkbook and do your own taxes, understanding at least the basics of science and the scientific method, being able to think critically and realize when someone is trying to dupe, scam or fleece you, realizing that some things that make you feel good in the moment, are really bad in the long run, and being able to choose wisely, being able to delay gratification and plan for the future.

In many ways the above have become harder to achieve. In fact I'd claim that many go through their entire life and never quite reach "adulthood", some never even get close.

When I was in university in the 70's, tuition was $550 a year and I could budget $100 for books, I lived at home because university was a 30 minute drive.

Tuition is now 10X what I paid, a single book can be $150 and I guarantee that wages for working part-time students has not gone up by 10X, at least not where I live. Having a computer is pretty much mandatory, rents are extremely high with a very low vacancy in my city. My kids were lucky, we could afford to pay their tuition and they lived close enough to their chosen schools that they could live at home.

And you know what? We and they were ok with them living at home. They were working once they turned 16 to earn their own spending money and for clothes etc.

BUT, the one thing I see that I didn't have to contend with when growing up is the extra pressures on them. The need to do volunteer work, the need to be a mentor, the helicopter parents who have their kids in every sport at the highest level, every after school activity, music, going to tutoring to get high scores for university entrance, writing upteen dozen entrance essays for magnet high schools and then universities. Some kids are so scheduled they can't even breathe never mind learning how to cook or budget or do laundry.

My kids are now 30 and 28, finished school (although the 30 year old takes extra courses for his field which his employer pays for) and in jobs of their chosen careers. They own their own small places (with help from the bank of mom and dad for the down pymt) but they take care of themselves now.

I don't believe there's a particular time, threshhold or measurement.

When does one arrive at adulthood? When these characteristics of life are practiced (not just learned) : proactively managing time and money, having goals for the future and paths to achieve them, living independently and responsibly with attitudes and activities that are thoughtful and helpful to others, taking proper care of one's own property and health (cleanliness, healthy eating habits, regular exercise), accumulating a circle of friends with similar practices and conduct.

Kids in this transition need to be given guidance, tools (including post secondary education or vocational training), and be held accountable for their progress. Sometimes they need to be pushed harder than you'd think but whether they're fully bought in to the program or not, they'll always need coaching, periodic assessments and guidance along the way. Having enough money to support or pay their expenses during these years can be very helpful but isn't essential.

It's my view that those kids who are unsuccessful in the above stated objectives and who languish in their twenties and beyond are too often the result of what their parents didn't do. Few can get there by themselves. Parents are not always at fault but often are, especially in the failure to launch cases.

To me, it's like a sports team with players and coaches. The players have the potential but need to be shown and taught the new skills they need to be better, to be successful, to attain their goals. Except with parenting it's kids and parents instead of players and coaches.

Part of the guidance - I don't think young adults should even consider marriage before their mid-20s or later. There's too much to do laying the foundation for their lives during the late teen-early twenties years. Marriage can be a big burden to interfere with that.

My apologies gardengal. It was not my intention to offend you.

Blfenton, you bring up a good point. How many AP classes, clubs, and sports do these kids have to do to at least get into the arena? In our town's high school guidance office, the "motto" was "Go to the best college you get into." Of course, this was good statistics for the school and for the town. But, it wasn't necessarily the best choice for the student. In my oldest DD's grade many including herself did not graduate from the college they started out with.

Elmer brings up a good point about being there as parents to give guidance. Even at 30 and 28 our kids still come to us for advice either for work or for personal and we freely give it. They look for advice on how to handle employees, how to negotiate a raise, how to invest for retirement and we are more than happy to make the time for those conversations.

I'll disagree. During the high school years, mega-activities are ESSENTIAL to keep the kids busy - not just in pursuit of worthwhile things, but to minimize idle time to spend on less desirable things and to get into trouble.

"Go to the best college you get into."

EXCELLENT advice for those going to a 4 year college. While for any individual there can be dozens of suitable choices (all of which will provide the kind of experience and education desired), it's a kid's first chance to learn to aim high and maximize their opportunity. Aiming high is an important lifetime trait to learn and practice regularly. And kids should be given clear expectations about where they should be after college - either employed or pursuing an advanced degree that leads to employment.

As a parent of kids who successfully aimed high in their college choices, and as a person who was involved in hiring college grads from among different schools, what school a kid goes to can matter profoundly in their later steps for employment or grad school. A college education isn't a commodity, with one from one school being equivalent to one from another. Crappy schools are as expensive as great schools - why not get the best value for the money? And for families with modest financial resources - the best schools, especially private ones, offer more and better financial aid to students. It can often be much cheaper to go to a top private school than to a middling' public college for that reason.

we have two girls one is 43, the other 36 we offered them the same deal when they graduated high school we would pay tuition (and other college costs), housing and vehicle costs as long as they made the grades to be successful and they had to come up with utility costs (including phone) food, automobile expenditures except insurance, clothing and any entertainment costs the oldest went for 3 semesters and then just stopped going, ... she finally graduated nursing school dec 2017, we paid for half of her tuition for that. the 36 yr old recently got her masters degree on her own, but she did get her bachelors on our dime.

the oldest would like for us to help "them" out, but we don't....rarely even take her to lunch the youngest understood from college graduation on that she was responsible for herself

i still think adulthood should begin at 18, if they can join the armed forces and go to war and do other things (make purchases legally etc) then they should be responsible for themselves just because they are continuing their education does not we can't help them if we are comfortable doing so if we aren't, they should be on their on

One of the differences I have noticed is that parents used to be proud that their children of any age were able to move out of the house and be able to manage their own lives with little help from the family.

I went through a phase of reading hysterical romance novels and have noticed a similarity between how girls were sheltered and had everything provided for them until they married. This is how things used to be for many women. They lived in a vacuum until they married. Then they could not cope. Keeping young people in the vacuum of concentrating on their education and not actually learning life skills is similar. By parents providing everything for their children until and after they marry prevents the children from becoming adults. It also prevents the parents from moving on to a different phase in their lives. Eventually it could bring a return of a single income multi-generational household.

I have to agree with gardengal's statement of why should she pay for her 28 year old daughters education. Cutting the "apron strings" so that children must make a decision on their lives is hard but people should want their children to be independent.

Moving out of one's parent's home is hardly an accomplishment. People you knew were proud of that?

gardengirl, is your comment of "giving them independence" a euphemism for saying your approach was very hands off? I don't think that works very well.

Giving guidance and helping them in setting and working toward those goals is hardly "coddling them" in my experience. Kids need tools to grow up and succeed in getting a good start in their lives. They start having no tools at all and the tools can't be ordered and delivered by Amazon Prime. That's what guidance is all about.

Elmer moving out of parents home meant you had a job that paid enough to support living on your own. Why would you not consider it an accomplishment? It also meant that you felt you were able to be an adult.

Mailfleur, Yes I do get the idea of cutting the apron strings. However, as long as we have the means, we will help out school wise, although neither has expressed an interest in grad school at this time. Every parent does what THEY feel is best in their own personal situation.

Elmer, you missed my point. College is an expensive proposition. To me, it makes more sense for the student to go to the best fit for them, and not be directed to the highest ranking.

ETA: I agree Mailfleur.

Oh please! Let's not throw an entire generation of young people under the bus! I'm so impressed with young adults today. They're smart and optimistic and generous. They have a global perspective earlier generations often lack. They face challenges earlier generations did not.

I left home at 18 and have been independent ever since. After a couple of years I started attending community college, which was tuition-free and open to anyone who showed up. I had zero support (financial or otherwise) from my family. I was allowed to apply for financial aid as an independent adult. The State of California paid 100% of my tuition for my final two years at a university. I was able to support myself by working part-time, but it took nine years to get my degree. So yes, I was very independent, but it was also a miracle I actually got a college degree given poverty, iffy living situations, poor judgement, etc. Family support would have made a world of difference in so many ways.

By contrast, my children (aged 27 and 31) graduated from college in four years while working part-time at crappy minimum wage jobs. They never could have done what I did because college tuition and cost-of-living expenses are astronomically higher today. And it's even harder now than when my kids graduated just a few years ago. In case you haven't heard, our young people are taking on enormous debt to go to college and most entry-level jobs pay paltry wages. One of my children went on to graduate school and, despite receiving grants and awards, plus working two and three jobs, graduated with nearly $80k in loans. That's the reality, folks. If their families don't help them, no one will.

I was thrown into adulthood at 18, and it wasn't pretty. My children came into full adulthood gradually as they gained experience and self-confidence in their ability to be independent. They matured at different rates and needed different types of parental support. Today both live full, productive lives and have good jobs serving their community. No, they haven't been on their own since their 18th birthday like me, but I think they're the better for it. And that's true for most of the young people in my life. Millennials, I'm a big fan!

I am not sure how allowing or developing independence in teenagers gets to be translated as being 'hands off'!! It means developing in them a degree of self-sufficiency and self-confidence so that they are able to function and communicate comfortably in an adult world; to make their own informed choices and learn from any resultant mistakes. And not to track their every movement or have to report in. I'd equate independence more with trust....the more trustworthy they proved to be, the greater the independence and freedom they were allowed. None of the three has ever proven to be untrustworthy and none have ever developed any significant bad habits, hung out with delinquents or slackers or have had any more serious a legal issue than a speeding ticket. Which they paid for!

And providing guidance is not coddling - coddling is paying for their every whim, doing everything for them, waiting on them hand and foot and not allowing them to develop life skills.

And yes, moving out is an accomplishment. I moved away from home at age 19, had an apartment, a full time job, attended college full time and paid for ALL my expenses. Yes, it was a different time and things were way less expensive than they are now but even then, that was considered a significant accomplishment. Now it is even more of one!!

"Elmer moving out of parents home meant you had a job that paid enough to support living on your own."

Because if you understand my suggested approach, that kids need help to set goals for themselves (for their lives) and then work along the path to reach those goals, moving out of the house would be unlikely to be on the goal list. In my case, my kids were told that when they got their bachelor degrees, they needed to either get a job or continue their education on a path that resulted in employment. The goal was the job or grad school, to do so it was unlikely they would be living at home.

When I was a teenager, I had plenty of "friends" who moved out before completing their educations or occupational or vocational preparation to support themselves. Usually it was because of relationships with their parents and often because of lifestyles they wanted to pursue best done not living with parents. Most took minimum wage jobs, many often lived in apartments with a number of like-minded others. My kids knew other kids like this too. Yes, they were out of the house. Yes, they would never likely be able to earn enough money to provide even the bare minimum level of a reasonable existence. Yes, several of the people I knew that did this died young from alcohol or drugs or other problems.

"coddling is paying for their every whim, doing everything for them, waiting on them hand and foot and not allowing them to develop life skills."

I think there are degrees and extremes for all of this. In my case, we paid tuition and living expenses for all of undergrad years and half of grad/professional schools. Until the BA was completed, all my kids worked summers and vacations starting in high school but that money was for their own yippies and desires.

They weren't coddled, they were given opportunities we could afford. Had we had less money, the advice and tactics with them would have been the same but the money would have come from scholarships, financial aid, and loans.

I think too many parents fail to appreciate and misunderstand the importance of young people being encouraged/guided/pushed to seriously prepare for their own lives as soon as they can. That may involve college, or vocational training, or joining the military. Those who don't do this right after high school face obstacles as the years pass that make it so much harder as to often prevent their doing what they want. How sad is that?

We're all different. Holding others to your standards (or ESPECIALLY to a standard that you think you would have if you were in their position) is wrong, imho.

You don't know....

I'm not holding anyone to any standard. There are many approaches to raising kids but even when considering variables among individuals and circumstances, I think we all agree some approaches work and some don't. I was responding to what (in my experience with my own family and those of people I know) seems to work and what seems to not work.

People tend to have attitudes that back up what they did themselves and that's fine, but I think the proof is the outcome. Look and see which parents seem to have raised their children into successful adulthood, and which haven't - to draw conclusions and dos and don'ts doesn't usually require deep analysis.

You become an adult when you must. It's harder if your parents won't teach you to master everyday basics -- to develop self-reliance -- or if they 'protect' you from every opportunity to learn from making *small* mistakes.

'Guarding' with GPS seems like failing to recognize that Susie no longer needs you to prevent her from putting her little hand on the hot stove.

It was just a general comment, Elmer. Not directed personally at you.

Paying for tuition and living expenses - if you can afford it - is not at all the same as paying for the cell phone, the car insurance and gas, the latest fashion statement or sporting equipment/video games and providing pocket money for entertainment and hanging out with friends.

I am also a firm believer that college students should have at least a part time job. I don't believe anyone appreciates the value of money until they have to earn it.

haha, you remind me of when our oldest kid was in high school, pre cell-phone ubiquitous days, it was cool to get a pager. We were asked if it were okay (the kid had a job) and I said not only is it okay, I want you to get a good one and I'll pay for it. Well, I was the coolest dad in town. Fact was, I wanted it so that when the kid was out gallivanting to who knew where doing who knew what, I could reach them immediately and trigger a call to home. By the time college came around for this one, cell phones were getting common and I provided it for the same reason. I could reach them immediately 24/7 and there was no excuse to not call home.

Both were done for my and my wife's purposes and intents, not for them. We did the same with the other kids, though for the others it was cell phones starting in high school. It worked in all cases.

I agree, Elmer. When my oldest daughter was a young teen and taking buses across town to dance classes, she started experiencing unwanted and sometimes scary attention from strangers. I asked a Crime Prevention Officer from my local law enforcement agency for advice. The response: "Get her a cellphone". So yes, it was for her but it was also for me. No regrets.

Just another thought about a tracking app. Just recently a young man from my area did not return back home as expected at a certain time. He was a 21 year old college student and living with his parents. They got concerned and used the GPS app and tracked him to a one vehicle accident on a rural road. He was in critical condition but thankfully survived. Had they not been able to track him, he probably would have died before anyone found him. So in his case, even at his age, a tracking app was a good thing!

According to Dr. Phil, the reasoning part of the brain is not completely developed until 27.

As a high school teacher, I work with young people every day -- and I see a wide variety of young people. I think the above comments are a little skewed. I don't exactly think "dumbing down" is the right phrase, but I can't come up with a better one. Here's what I see:

- The top 20-30% of our young people are incredible -- better prepared for the world than I was at their age! They have everything I had PLUS the benefits of technology. They've developed a good work ethic, have taken advantage of their opportunities, and they have great futures ahead of them.

- The kids in the middle -- who are fewer in number with every passing year -- seem to me to be "lesser" than the kids I taught when I was a new teacher. Less is expected of them at school (and often at home), and they seem to be "living down to those expectations". These kids are perfectly capable of doing more /working harder /doing better -- and when they're forced to do it, they will. However, they're likely to be knocked down a few times before they realize they'd better step up to the plate and put in the effort.

- The bottom 30-40% are in real trouble. Yes, all too many parents are "enablers" who had kids money and cars ... all while making excuses for their lack of work ethic or achievement. The "why" varies widely: Some parents are working so hard to make ends meet that they aren't home, others are so caught up in their own lives /entertainment that they let time slip by. I don't know how these kids are going to make it in the world, and it's not about never having done laundry or not knowing how to cook a meal -- those tasks aren't hard, and most kids can learn them with a couple of trials. But learning these tasks isn't on these kids' radars, and none of us accomplish things that we don't recognize are important -- and these kids are very much unaware of how to manage their own lives; that is, how to juggle multiple requirements of school, home, friends, jobs.. These kids have been taught to blame others for their failures, and they're very good at that.

I see nothing wrong, if the parent has the financial capability to do so, to help one's children with their college education. Depending on the financial ability of the parent, this might mean contributing to tuition, or helping with the entire cost. Yes, some kids work their way through college and do it all themselves, and that is admirable, but if the parent can help and wants to, I see nothing wrong with that.

I agree. I paid my own way through college, and it was not a positive experience for me.

The reality for us is that my husband and I have college degrees and professional jobs. We live in a paid-for house and have savings. A semester of college (in our low COL state) costs about a month's work for us. On the other hand, just out of high school our kids were capable of earning minimum wage (or slightly more), so they could work full-time and still not make enough to pay.

We opted to pay the basics -- and let them manage the extras. From about the time they began high school, we told them that we'd pay four years at an in-state school -- tuition and books, dorm room and meal plan. If they opted for a more expensive school or an apartment, they were responsible for paying the additional costs. And they were responsible for spending money. It's worked out well for us. Our girls see us as "partners in education", and they've worked hard towards their degrees. Our oldest is out of school and is working in her field; she has already earned back at least 3X what we paid for her education. Not a bad bargain. I expect to say the same of our youngest in a few more years.

We also made it clear that we were "on the semester plan". That is, we told our girls that we'd gladly pay for the first semester of college, and when they earned good grades we'd pay for the second semester ... and so on. However, if we'd seen lack of effort, poor grades, or lack of progress towards graduation, we'd have immediately made a change. We weren't going to support lackluster effort or a decade-long bachelor's degree.

To address the dumbing down. I don't know when it became "a thing" that all kids should go to college. Colleges offered remedial help to et the students up to par. Not sure how this actually worked out.

I think it's a combination of a couple things:

- Loans and FAFSA are widely available today, so anyone can go to college. This wasn't the case in previous generations.

- The "You can be anything you want to be" message has been pervasive for a couple decades now -- but that idea seems to stand alone; that is, it does not seem to be connected to the idea that hard work is required.

- The every-kid-gets-a-trophy generation doesn't seem to understand that everything isn't available to everyone. I mean, I have quite a few kids who are barely passing high school, who don't like to read and have poor study skills, who skip school on a regular basis, and who (now in late February) haven't made any moves towards applying to college -- yet they are SURE they are going to be admitted to top universities, where they will pursue studies in difficult majors such as Pharmacy, Law, etc. I taught one memorable student who had a great plan: She was going to skip her bachelor's degree and go straight to medical school -- after all, if a medical degree's what you want, why poke around with all that background stuff? They haven't put any thought into HOW these things will all come together, but they fully expect top-of-society lucrative careers. In past generations, I think kids had a better "feel" for their own academic abilities. Today's kids seem to think that graduating from high school (even with a 1.2 GPA) means you're totally ready for any major at any university.

- We as a society have developed the (false) idea that everyone needs a college degree. This is not true; for example, I think everyone's aware that we have a glut of college-educated young people who cannot find jobs in their field -- some because they chose degrees in which it's difficult to get a job (Music or Women's Studies), others because they didn't make connections and get experience in college, and their classmates eclipse them. At the same time, our universities are not turning out American-born engineers -- our kids are giving up in that tough major -- and we are facing a lack of skilled tradesmen. My high school has dropped Shop and Electrical Trades because kids don't want to sign up for those classes -- even though jobs are available in these

College is an expensive proposition. To me, it makes more sense for the student to go to the best fit for them, and not be directed to the highest ranking.

I agree. "Best" can mean a lot of different things. My oldest is an RN, so it didn't matter where she went to school -- what mattered was that she learned her skills, and she could pass the NCLEX exam and become licensed. The same is true for me as a teacher. On the other hand, someone who wants to go into business or politics might benefit from choosing a big-name school that would lead to big-name connections. My youngest chose to begin at community college; she wasn't ready to leave home. I do think my oldest had better opportunities and a better start by going straight to the university, but community college was the best choice for her. Money, too, matters. Any student should think long and hard before going into debt while a less expensive school is available.

You become an adult when you must

Eh, I don't know. Okay, it was true for me: My mother pushed me out the door before I was really ready.

My two girls, though, both started to show a greater desire for independence ... to earn their own money and not be dependent on us ... to learn about saving ... to talk about how one goes about buying a house, managing a career, etc. ... in their sophomore year in college. For each of them, that was really when they seemed to show real adult maturity.

According to Dr. Phil, the reasoning part of the brain is not completely developed until 27.

Right, and boys are slower than girls in this regard. But a 24-year old is more developed than a 22-year old ... the 22-year old is more developed than a 20 year old, etc. It's a process, not a switch. And individual differences come into play.

Independence is not something one suddenly does at a particular birthday - it is a long, slow process.

My grandsons must pay for their cellphones - they are on a family plan so that makes it pretty affordable. They both have jobs that make this possible, and they love receiving money for Xmas and birthdays.

DGS1, the only driver, has to pay $500 of the extra cost of insurance to drive (full price is an additional $2000 - lucky his parents have USAA - many are far more). He also pays for the gas. He doesn't not have to pay for car repairs or maintenance as he's driving a 2000 Suburban with 245,000 miles on it - that would be a big risk.

Neither boy gets an allowance - they want to go to a movie or buy pizza or bagels, pay for it themselves.

There mother does track them on their phone, with their full consent. They move from place to place so rapidly, she wants to know where they are. But they are 15 1/2 and not quite 18. I doubt she will be tracking the 18 yr old at college.

They will be paying for college for the boys. DGS1 is going to an Ivy. He will have a few loans but they don't want him to have many, so they are willing (and able) to do this. They both went to the same Ivy so they know the value of that education.

Freedom and responsibility have always gone hand in hand. More freedom? More responsibility!!! It is expected that after getting their college undergraduate degree, they will get jobs and live independently. An engineering degree from an Ivy should pay very well and make that possible.

DGS2 does not play any sports and has not been crazy about many of the extracurriculars at his school. He's spend 24/7 by himself working with his 3D printers (yes, multiples). Not a good idea, so his parents told him to get a job. He's now working about 19 hrs a week at a nearby hardware store. By the end of the grill selling season, he'll be able to assemble a Weber or Big Green Egg with his eyes closed! He likes the work and he likes the money. It does not interfere with his school work, and he's in a very demanding MST magnet HS program, "challenging" the curriculum with two AP's his freshman year. He's getting A's.

DGS1 only works giving squash lessons as his squash takes up a LOT of time. He is in the same MST magnet program and has done extraordinarily well. He's a very mature and very responsible young man. We all fully expect he will make good choices in college - he has yet to make a terrible one. He is very focused and goal-oriented and willing to do the work. The boy loves a challenge! This weekend, there was a traveling squash tournament at their club. The boy who will be the No 1 on the same Ivy's squash team was playing in it. DGS invited him to stay at their home, and couldn't wait to play this kid. DGS is rated a 4.8 player (in reality, more like 5.0) and the kid is a 5.8, but probably really a 6.0, which is Pro caliber. As I said, the boy likes a challenge, aims high and aligns himself with the best.

All this started at around age 2-3. That's when it must start. It's a lengthy process but will end at the appropriate time if started at the appropriate time.

I should have said that you become an adult -- or not -- when you have responsibilities. Parents aid in this by guiding and challenging, and showing Junior how to pick up the pieces when he falters or makes bad choices. Reality bites the ready and the unready.

Don't limit a child to your own learning, for he was born in another time.

(a rabbinical saying which I often say to myself, as not to forget))

everyone's different. "adult" means a lot of things. I expect a lot from my kids from a pretty young age-but things that I know they can and should handle. Some emotional stuff is much harder to handle than practical things. So I'll help them to figure it out..if I can of course. Some things are hard to go through at any age. Or to comprehend even. So yes, sometimes I won't know the answer.Nobody will. But they'll come to me for advice-so that's good I suppose.

Practically, yes, I'd expect them to help more and more-at this point, they're more independent than me. I hate when others micromanage me so I don't micromanage my kids either-but I fully expect them to be responsible, understanding, and being able to walk in others' shoes, so yes, they know to sms me/others in family that they're fine or to call if they're late. I appreciate this quality in people, so I did everything to teach my kids to be that.

It's very hard financially nowadays (and was hard in my days too lol-just differently)-so I don't expect them to be fully financially independent, with very expensive education bills and unfortunately high medical bills we've got,etc-but they did/ do work, volunteer, etc, in addition to their rigorous studies. (too rigorous if you ask me; but then they're young and seem to really enjoy it, in the end of the day. I remind myself how energetic I was when their age)

They're different personalities-my daughter will never be as organized as my son for example. On the other hand, my son won't call me couple times a day sometimes just to chat and share either:)

They're 17 and 21, and I'm an anxious Mom-that's my biggest weakness. The rest, I'm pretty good at. Lol. My biggest challenge in parenting is with myself. Handling thyself successfully is not a guarantee-but a slightly bigger, brighter hope for bringing up good adults. And I don't believe there's one recipee-you have a person, he's unique, born into circumstances such and such, he has his strengths and weaknesses-help him to use strengths for good, to work around the weaknesses, and to recognize the difference between the two:) It will still take years to figure out, some of that stuff. I can give a backbone, something to lean upon whenever..it comes handy, in my limited experience.

I don't even know whether I was answering the right question..sorry..today is a bit weird day.

Sometimes I wish my Mom were still here, to help me with my adulting (and I'm pushing 60).

To me, you're an adult when you can no longer be claimed as a dependent on your folks' tax return. You're a responsible adult when this causes no consternation.

I like that saying, aprilneverends, "....for he was born in another time." The world that kids are launching into now, is so different than the one I broke into. Of course behaviors, touch-stones, paths, timing, all sorts of things will be different for them. Different doesn't mean better, or worse. Just different.

I got a different vibe from the situation:

"I see the way my SIL treats her 18, 19 and 21 year old kids as though they are still kids. She is still their only provider, still pays for their cell phone
bill and gas money and college expenses and ALSO still tracks their
every movement through a GPS app. Still checks in with them if they are
"late". None of them have ever even had a job because it would
"distract from their schooling."

Perhaps this isn't about dumbing down the kids. Perhaps it's all about the mother instead. It says that she's their only provider. Could it be that she's trying to hang onto these children for all she's worth? After all, she's their only provider. They may be all she thinks she has, and when they grow up, she'll be alone.

Yes, the mother in the OP's question might be anxious about who she will be when she's no longer 'Mom In Charge'. She must have a lot of free time to be able to 'keep watch' over those GPS systems. Parents have to 'transition' along with their maturing children.

I see this all as a result of our society not being in "survival mode". In times past, it was imperative for kids to work for the family to eat and to become financially independent as soon as possible to take the burden off the parents. We have a leisure society currently, so it's not surprising that some of the survival skills are taking a back burner in favor of focus on higher education or sabbaticals or mission work. And, as others have mentioned, kids in affluent areas often have to live with their parents as they can't afford housing or to pay their bills otherwise.

While I was out on my own at 19, it was pretty terrible for a long time to the point that I was nearly starving. I wish my parents had paid attention to what was going on and helped out or provided me some guidance on how to create a more stable environment for myself.

"survival mode" for sure shapes generations differently

it can also be that individuals are in survival mode..hard too..at least when it's generation you undergo it together..or so i guess..

agree also about transition. it's not an easy transition at all. I remember me putting my DD in a daycare when she was 5 months old..then daycare for toddlers..then pre-school..then kindergarten already here, in US, then back home, to a new school there..then back here and school again..then high school on a different coast since we've moved again..then community college(was quite brutal btw, in comparison to uni..good experience, in that sense..very real life one)..then university..

I'd compare university to the very first daycare..it's strange that is so, but was very hard on me, yet again. Not a question of control, or me figuring myself out so much...it was just hard. Even though felt much more natural than when she was a baby..then, I needed to work, and wasn't about what's better for her or for me. Felt unnatural. Needed to be done. University-natural, desirable..major of her dreams..and indeed something she wished so much and worked so hard for, and obviously I wished the same for her. She's passionate about it-I supported her every step of the way. So I don't quite fully understand why it got so hard. More acute feeling of separation..

I tried not to show it as much. Obviously. To her. To you, I won't lie though:)

The young people I know from affluent areas have parents who will buy them a condo and make the payments. They don't want them back home, and their adorable progeny are so spoiled they refuse to live according to the standards of their income with entry level jobs. Of course, many of these same parents bought them condos to live in while in college - no dorm room and sharing for these snowflakes!

Someone on here last year when there was another discussion about what people expected when they went to college blasted me because living without a dishwasher meant to his that he was living in a slum. There was no way that he would lower his standards that far. I have known a couple of what were called in the 70-80's "Trust Fund Babies" but they were much more grounded than what I am seeing parents and their children expecting to be provided for them.

An eighth grade, 14 year old friend of the family has this question as a topic for reading and writing in her English class this quarter. Maybe some kid you know has this topic, too, because it is part of a nationally published curriculum.

January began with a reading on whether 16 was too young to drive, then some out of context quotes on the subject of approaching adulthood. They read longer passages on the topic of becoming an adult, what events might mark entry into adulthood, how the definitions and perceptions of being an adult have changed over time, etc. The English class will wind it up with research, a short paper, and an oral presentation to defend the student's own opinion as to when a child becomes an adult.

I thought it was interesting that we older folk happen to be talking about the same thing.

Our young friend, by the way, thinks that one is an adult when three things have occurred: having a job to support oneself, being married, and buying a house. Oddly, though, when she was telling me this, she spoke of a married couple living with parents as though it were just a step in life. ??

May I suggest that you talk to your young friend about having the option or desire to be married rather than it being a step to becoming an adult. Too many younger people, especially girls, think that if they are not married they are not complete. In her case it would mean she could never be an adult. If to your friend being married is one of the steps to adulthood and she never finds a good person to marry she might just marry and be miserable. Very sad that she believes this.

Yes, the mother in question IS an overbearing helicopter/needs to cut the apron strings parent; I suppose her husband is too but from my perspective at least, mom seems to "wear the pants" in the family and definitely drives the parenting method/s.

These kids, my nieces and nephews are the only ones I know personally that are that age range. The rest of my perceptions are based on outside observances through media and social perception.

I DON'T interact on a regular basis with people that age. Most of my interactions on a daily basis are with those in their late 20s to late 40s and children preteen and younger.

I do think our society has changed so rapidly in the past 100 years that I'm sure every generation is dealing with new complications when it comes to parenting.

I really loved what jewelisfabulous said, our society is not currently in "survival mode."

I suppose when one isn't in "survival mode", you don't have to grow up so soon by necessity. If one's family CAN support a sustained adolescence to allow a person to fully develop to their potential, why not?

I suppose it's just hard for me to shake. The idea that "I did it, why can't they???"

Guess that's just the old fogey in me coming out. ;)

I'm skipping over all the inbetween posts... I had the same "fight" as you. I would teach my son to do laundry, how to cook, how to budget or even how to ride the city buses on his own. People chastised me for doing it. Now, they are impressed by him. I tried to tell them they could do these things with their own kids. But really, I never understood the whole, he's too young thing. No. putting my foot down. You can't start teaching independence too early. It's impossible. What level and where, that is up for debate. But even at 2 or 3 I at least tried to teach him to put away one toy before getting another, as a for instance.

I'd venture that more people today flounder at parenting because they did not grow up in large or extended families, where they would have observed family dynamics -- for good or for ill.

In the 1970's our VNA (upscale community) offered free classes on parenting. Classes were divided into age groups: Parenting the Infant, Two-Year-Old, etc. Highly educated SAH mothers attended. They were usually overwhelmed with coping, or were terribly earnest about being Perfect Parents. I found it interesting that mothers would only attend the sections focused on the age their children were *right now*. Nobody with a Two attended sections about Fours, much less Teens. They may all have taken Psych. in college, but there's nothing like *experiencing* "Childhood Development"!

In my current community, there are not as many SAH mothers, and few of those are hands-on in raising their children. Some kids enter pre-K only fluent in Spanish; their primary care-givers have been hired help.

I was an only child. My DH was, too. Both our mothers were single parents for most of our lives. We floundered as parents.

..at two-three-all toys put away nicely or else we don't start with any other routine:)

there are ways to make it more fun, if a child finds it hard. Some kids are actually enjoying putting stuff away. Few of them I must add:)

Cleaning etc-they have this period when they a) want to mimic adults a lot b) want to master skills no matter how a skill might seem boring to us later c) just enjoy transformation -say a surface was dry, became wet..now it's shining..how interesting!

this is the age where one should be patient and let them do some of the tasks, let them try. might drive one crazy but wiser to let them try.

that's the easier part..a given, to me.

and yes, coming from a big multi generational family-probably equipped me better. I had my kids pretty young. Our parents lived far away/took care of sick grandparents-no help. No money either.

again, I still consider it easier part. Between myself and myself lol.

I've tried to raise my 2 girls to be independent. My oldest (18) is travelling in Vietnam and texted me this morning that she just bought a motorcycle to use for the rest of her trip. Sometimes I wish I had coddled them more. Sigh.

Maybe we become adults when we have to. There is no other alternative than to stand on our own two feet.

Not sure if this is applicable as far as "adulthood" goes. But I have always said that I am done raising my children when they are better people than I am.

Some days, (and to some of you) that may not count for much.... :)

Good point penny. Some days I wish there was a parent around that I could ask for advice or if I'm doing something right/wrong, but there no longer is.

I'm sorry B :( You can ask me stuff anytime...

Now go clean your room.

LOL!

Not sure if this is applicable as far as "adulthood" goes. But I have always said that I am done raising my children when they are better people than I am.

That can't be my bar. Many on here may have seen me say over the years how much better a person he is. Years. He'd have been an "adult" by the time he was 2 or 3 (grin) I got lucky on this one's moral compass!