You're not sticking a standard dishwasher under either of those drainboards.

Hi there Robin. From my experience, Julien builds a high quality sink. I don't know anything about the other brand. You might want to check where the other brand is actually manufactured. Stay away from Chinese made sinks! As far as drain location, that depends on whether you are right or left handed. Generally, the drain goes on the right if you are right handed and on the left if left handed. I hope that adds some insight for you.

Joseph Corlett, the drainboard is on the right and the dishwasher on the left. The questions is should the drain be rear right or rear left

Thanks Rachiele, that is helpful

We have a Julien sink. Ferguson sells them. Great quality, but just like our other sink (Kohler stages), food particles always seem to lay on the bottom and need to be sprayed down to the drain. Not sure if all modern stainless sinks have this problem.

I purchased a sink (28” ledge sink for our scullery) from Create Good Sinks. It’s a high quality and beautiful sink. I don’t see the gage listed, but feel certain I would not have purchased anything less than 16 gage. My sink does not have an attached drain board so I can’t comment on that specific type of sink, but my impression after unpacking and inspecting the one I did order is extremely positive (it’s not installed yet) .

Here’s a link to some reviews of their sinks.

I put in Julien sinks in my remodel and have been quite pleased with them. The main sink has a right side drain (was supposed to be right rear but manufacturer messed up (actually, probably the dealer but the manufacturer wanted to make nice with the dealer) and offered a great price for me to take it with right side drain, which was fine) and my dishwasher is also on that side. Don't know if that helps with plumbing issues or not though. I put in a 33 x 16 x 8 main sink in my 36" cabinet and it is great. Yes, you have to spray/coax carrot scrapings, etc., over to the garbage disposal but I don't think that's unusual. Also, I also have two sinks and I went with the same Julien design but instead got a sink that is 18 x 18 x 10 over there. Perfect!

Oh, and be aware, if you are going with an undermount sink, those cute cutting boards they sell that seem to fit into the sink don't actually fit - those are built for top mount apparently. But the colanders are great.

Be sure to check the size of the bowl. Many that I've seen in big box stores are so small that I don't know what you would use them for. My Rachiele sink has a large bowl and it's just adequate when cooking for two. The walnut cutting board fits just fine.

Hello robinlmorris,

We appreciate your consideration for our sinks. An advantage we see in moving the drain to the left would be to gather both the sink and the dishwasher plumbing fittings on one side of your base cabinet to increase available storage space. We also offer custom made bottom grids to fit with modified drain positions which may be something interesting to enhance funtionality. Beside protecting your sink, the grid will lift up items sitting at the bottom of the bowl, therefore allowing water to drain correctly and maximising the available working space. If you have any question, please do not hesitate to contact one of our customer service agent at 1 866 901 5624 or by email at customerservice@homerefinements.ca

Best regards,

The Julien Home Refinements team

Robinlmorris, what sink did you end up installing? I am currently considering a Create Good Sinks and would love feedback if that is what you chose.

I just installed 2 Julien sinks in our remodel. The main sink is the J7-003935 (30"x18"x10") and the island sink is the J7-003938 (18"x18"x10").

I did undermounts and the Julien cutting boards fit just fine. They aren't supposed to fit inside like some of the ledge sinks. They sit on your counter top sink edge, so too big of a reveal could cause a problem.

Pretty happy with the Julien sinks. I have the bottom grids, but you still have some food/bits chasing with the larger sink. I think it is just what comes with the design. To have enough slope for water to drain real well, you won't have a flat sink surface, which would be hard to work with.

My only issue/complaint, which isn't Julien's fault, is really bad water spotting from our hard water and with these bigger sinks there is just more of it to get splashed and spotted with water stains. I think I'm also having "new car syndrome" with my new kitchen!! I want my sinks to look perfect, which isn't possible with hard water, normal use and other people in the household who would never think to do a quick wipe-down.

We're considering Create Good Sinks. Has anyone had issues with scratching or the quality of the stainless steel? The manufacturer has told me that they use solid 304, 16 gauge stainless steel, but it is sourced and manufactured in China.

@apitarre - All stainless steel sinks scratch regardless what you pay and who makes it. The scratches eventually blend into a patina, but the first scratches are noticeable. If you don’t want scratches, you should not get a SS sink at all. Get a Silgranit or enameled cast iron sink instead.

@M Miller. Thanks. My question was really in regards to the quality of stainless steel from China vs. Canada or the U.S. My understanding is that Chinese stainless steel is lesser quality, but Create Good Sinks uses the same (304, 16g stainless steel) as Julien (as a comparison), but Julien sinks are manufactured in Canada and are about $1,000 more. People seem to be very happy with their Create Good Sinks, so I am interested in hearing about how their sinks have held up over time or if they have any regrets.

I have lived with my Create Good Sink for 6 months now and it does scratch but no more than any other stainless sink I’ve had. The one thing I do NOT like about it is the drain. They make a big todo about how great the drain system is without the seam, but I find that the rubber gasket gets SUPER gunky underneath, and really there is STILL a seam, it’s just lower down in the drain. It is removable, but when you take the rubber drain thingy out and turn it over, it’s dirtier than any other I’ve ever had. I should probably buy another one so that I can rotate them and put one in the dishwasher (that is if it’s dishwasher safe). I also find that it drains slowly. My drain works perfectly fine (the plumbing part), but the way the rubber gasket is designed, it somehow impedes the water from going down into the drain quickly.

Julien sinks, from my experience, are very high quality in both material and finish. I believe they build one of the finest stainless sinks in the world. The only input I can make about Chinese stainless is that my supplier accidentally delivered a batch of Chinese stainless to us. They are fully aware we only order domestic. They delivered our batch to someone else. My men called me over to see the stainless as soon as they went to use a sheet. They didn't want to use the material until I saw it. They pointed out color variation differences in the metal that they had never seen before. Subsequently, I looked over the delivery certifications and realized it was not domestic - it had come from China. Our supplier realized they cross delivered and rectified the order immediately.

Since this thread is alive again, I thought I should give an update. I have had my Julien sink for 3 months now and we love it:

The drain is on the far left near the dishwasher like Home Refinements by Julien recommended. I love love the drainboard (need to get a nicer basket). I just spray the whole thing down when it gets a bit dirty.

It is great for washing large heavy pots.

Like all stainless steel sinks, it does get small scratches... my Elkay prep sink has a lot already too. I expect eventually they will get a patina. My kitchen needs to be a work horse as well as pretty. I don't really expect sink bottoms to look new.

When it gets grimy I just wash it with some bar keeper's friend and a dish brush.

I've seen a few Julien sinks that have what appear to be unfinished wood handles on the sink accessories which concerns me. I would rather see a waterproof material or something like bamboo than the wood on the Julien accessories. Other than that, the Julien sinks look fine to me upon casual observation.

@Alyson Baumbach I really appreciate your comment from February 2019 about Create Good Sinks sourcing both materials and production in China. If you've talked to them recently, this would mean that they have switched back to Chinese production after moving production to the United States only a few years back. You can see this saga played out with a comment from a customer on their Houzz page who was unhappy from mistakes made in the first batch of sinks made in the United States. So, while perhaps they thought they had ironed out problems with their US production as stated in their reply, it may be that they moved once again back to China. While I am impressed with the price points and accessories design of Create Good Sinks, I am also concerned about the quality of the stainless steel and have sent a direct message to them to try to learn more. The seamless drain looks beautiful, but I've read numerous posts of people saying it's tricky to install a standard disposal to these drains which require special hardware that is supposed to be supplied by Create Good Sinks and shipped with each sink automatically. Also, I appreciate a comment here about the rubber gaskets and metal drain ledge collecting grime further down into the drain than with a normal drain design, making the seamless design perhaps less than revolutionary.

I just had the Create Good Sinks 33" ledge sink installed, drain on the left. It is a nice looking sink, but otherwise I am unimpressed. In my research of the reviews on Houzz of this sink, nobody mentioned that the drain hole seems smaller than average and if something goes down the sink that shouldn't be there, it is very difficult to get your hand in and move it around to find the object. My hands are small; I can't imagine someone with larger hands being able to do this.

Another issue I have is that their accessories have sharp edges and I fear they will scratch the sink when moving them around. The rubber feet on the grate that sits at the bottom of the sink has left what seems to be permanent marks on the bottom of the sink. where they sit.

My last sink was a Franke and the finish on that sink lasted for 24 years and developed a nice patina over time. Overall, I probably wouldn't get this again, although it does look very good.

@chahan3 I like the faucet appears in this photo of yours, may I ask which make/model it is? And have you liked its performance since installing it a couple of years ago? Thanks!

@vintnerfredrik - I am not @chahan3, but her kitchen faucet looks like it is the Delta Trinsic Pro Pre-Rinse Pull-Down Kitchen Faucet with Magnetic Docking Spray Head, #9659-DST. There are lots of reviews for it online. I personally am not a fan of faucets where you have to undock them like that.

@Robin Morris Hi, do you still love your Julien sink? Any issues with the sink grate that comes with it leaving permanent marks on the bottom of the sink? are the wood handles of the accessories still in good condition? I read one review where they said they started to rot after a few years...any issue with food getting stuck in corners?

The wood handles on Julien accessories was the reason I chose against that brand for a workstation sink. Wood around a sink is for a show kitchen, not a hardworking one.

@aglitter I am concerned about this also. Wood obviously won't keep it's shape or size with exposure to water. What did you choose instead of Julien?

@Aglitter I am concerned about this also. Want the accessories to fit indefinitely, not swell or split and stop fitting. What did you pick instead of Julien?

ajbmacrae -- In seven years the walnut cutting board on my Rachiele sink has reduced in width by about 1 cm. Length is the same so it still fits just fine. Nothing else has changed dimensions.

Huh - Good to know. Thanks for sharing. I am surprised and impressed. Can I ask how often and how carefully you use it? Ours is a workhorse kitchen with many cooks. Some may not “baby” all our tools.

I purchased a 42" wide Havens stainless steel apron-front sink with an 18" wide stainless steel strainer basket which remains in the sink at all times and is mostly used for draining and air-drying items that are washed by hand. I have two articulating Brizo faucets which I would recommend for that width of sink to assist with dual cooks and cleaning angles for spraying down that width of sink (strainer basket is moved side to side for cleaning). I have been happy with the thickness of the metal and shape of the sink, but I have been displeased with the textured finish I selected, as it traps debris and takes extra work to clean, so I recommend a smooth finish for the interior. Some of the Havens corners lack microwelding which allows for crud buildup which needs extra cleaning work with cotton swabs and sometimes a fold of sandpaper. Rachiele microwelds all its sink corners, but I hear their prices have skyrocketed lately. Julien is still an excellent sink brand. I have found that I do not use the cutting board in the sink as I thought I might. I still do all my cutting board work on the countertop, though that may change as I have more time to cook in the future. If wood accessories are removed and allowed to dry after using, the wood should last a while.

@Aglitter - You mentioned you purchased an Apron sink for ergonomics (smart!).

I'm 5'10" with HORRIBLE back pain, and I'm designing a kitchen for the best erognomics and I have found myself in a similar boat as you : 36" or 42" stainless steel workstation (will likely be a Havens or Rachiele), raised 38" counter height, articulating faucets, things like this.

I love the idea of an Apron sink for relieving back strain. However, I don't like the apperance on an Apron sink, especially when it's stainless steel.

Then I noticed that The Galley's images sometimes have thin, 1/2" counter overhangs (which I'm also planning for), and they sometimes install their undermount sinks as close as possible to the ledge. It practically looks the same as Apron workstations sinks, and that (I'm assuming) Rachiele or Havens would be able to install their undermount sinks reeeeally close to the edge like this as well.

Do you think your back pain would notice an extra inch between this setup ^^, and your Haven's Apron sink? Also, could there be a slight advantage of having 1 inch ledge to prevent water/food from rolling onto the floor?

Would love to hear your thoughts/experience with your Apron workstation sink!

@C. First of all, if you are 5'10" and have really bad back pain, then a 38" countertop height might still be too low for you. I'm barely 5'7" when when standing up as straight as I can, and a 38 3/4" countertop height is very comfortable for me. At 5'10", you could easily go up to a 40" countertop height. It is uncommon for kitchen designers to specify countertops much higher than 40" for anyone except a frequent kitchen user who is taller than 6 feet in order to retain the general usability for varying heights of potential users, but you may always do what you find best for yourself. I would encourage you to do a mockup of a 40" countertop height and try different tasks like chopping on a cutting board and stirring in mixing bowls to see how you like it. Remember that you should allow 1/2" for cabinetry leveling, so find your perfect height, and then subtract 1/2" (from the total of cabinetry plus countertop) when placing your order.

The minimum possible front countertop ledge width is determined by factors which contribute to the risk of a break. I will guarantee you that ledge width in your picture is probably wider in person than it may appear here. Few fabricators will cut a continuous ledge (meaning without seams) less than 2 1/2" to 3" wide, and some fabricators will even burden you with a 4" or greater ledge, though that is excessive. The Galley issues guidelines for cutting the sink hole with no seams around the hole, but this technique complicates the handling and transport of the piece because that area is so delicate once it is cut. If I understand, correctly your countertop will only be 1/2" thick which may mean that you are using porcelain or something of that nature, and in that case, the substrate will dictate that you will need a seam for a narrow front ledge rather than having the sink cut from the middle. Porcelain is already fragile, and it won't survive the handling, transport, and installation with a pre-cut, narrow, continuous sink ledge. Be cautious of any fabricator who wants to install steel rods to help stabilize a front sink ledge. Those rods can get wet and swell and cause future breakage. The best policy is to avoid rod reinforcement.

In terms of ergonomics, the height of your countertop and the height of your sink is relatively more important than how far forward you stand to the sink, but if you have really bad back pain and want to give your best effort to eliminating that in your kitchen, then an apron-front sink still needs to be on your list for consideration. I regularly operate within the full confines of the apron front which brings dishes and other tasks such as cleaning the sink very close to my body and allows me to stand mostly upright. It is the leaning forward at a sink that strains your back, and you will lose at least a hand width's advantage with a non-apron-front sink of your ability to work closer to your body to minimize leaning. For many people this is not an issue, and due to the fact that non-apron-front sinks are usually less expensive and more plentiful in terms of brands and styles, plus more aesthetically pleasing in many instances, the majority of kitchen remodelers are not using apron-fronts.

Both Rachiele and Havens offer texturing for their stainless steel sinks, and if you look at their portfolios, you'll see that a hammered or otherwise textured finish is actually very pretty for an apron front sink. I have a textured finish, and it hides water spots and scratches and it looks as new today as it did several years ago when I had it installed. My only caution is that the interior of the sink should preferably be smooth to aid with cleaning. I believe that texturing can be applied only to the forward-facing and top ledge part of the apron front if you like that look.

Spillage over the apron front is not a problem for me. Every now and then, I might get a small drip down the apron front, maybe after loading the dishwasher with something wet, but nothing more than you would sometimes get from a sink with a ledge that gets water on the front ledge and drips down occasionally. I would be hard pressed to say if I even have to wipe drips of water off the apron front even once per week. It just really is not a problem for me.

It sounds like you are on the right track to helping with your ergonomics. As I mentioned earlier, your first step is to see if you can raise those countertops up to 40". If you do a lot of bread kneading or something where you need your arms straight down, you might consider doing dual levels somewhere in the kitchen. Generally, 41" to 42" is the upper stretch of a modified countertop height, and that would be for someone taller than 6 feet. The reason that we don't like to raise the countertop much more than that is because then they become unusable for people who are shorter. However, at a height of 5'10" with back problems, 40" is not at all out of reason. Be aware that if you wear shoes with thick soles when you are working in the kitchen or if you intend to put down a comfort mat on the floor that has substantial thickness, those factors could alter how you feel about your cabinetry height. Mocking up a height and doing various tasks is the most reliable way to determine what is best for you.

ajbmacrae -- I am the only cook in my kitchen, but I use the sink a lot and I'm not the most careful person in the world either. Because the sink is copper, the only maintenance is just a wipe down every so often. Scratches and stains go away after a few days, so I can see this sink holding up just fine even if a dozen cooks used it.

Photo taken today. You can see the amount of shrinkage from the amount of white that shows. Colours aren't exactly the same due to different cameras.

Photo taken in 2018

@Aglitter Thank you for all that feedback. I did a mockup like you suggested and I think I would be very happy with 39". I think I will save myself the hassle of the ledge situation and the complexities of trying to make it thin, and just get an apron sink by Havens or Rachiele. I agree the hammered exterior can look attractive.

Do you have a workstation apron sink?

Because.....one issue I'm running into is that if I use an undermounted apron sink, the ledge that holds the cutting board will be a few inches lower (depending on the teir level) than the counter, which totally defeats the purpose of raising all of the counters. But if I raise the counters even higher so that the cutting board lands at 40" or so, then the counters become all too high.

I've explored the possibility of a top mounted apron sink, which would definitely solve this issue of having the sink too low.... but I do enjoy sweeping crumbs down the length of the counter and tossing them directly into the undermounted sink . I even use a squeegee to push water into the sink basin. With a top mounted apon sink, I wouldn't be able to do these very convenient tasks,

I might just get used to using a cutting board on the counters and reserving the workstation sink board for minimal cutting and primarily washing produce and pots.

@C. If you felt comfortable with a 39" countertop mockup but feel you will be using a cutting board frequently in the sink, then at your height of 5'10", I think you could easily go up to 40" for your projected countertop height to raise the sink cutting board a little more. One inch looks like a lot on paper, but in reality it is a very small distance. Also remember that you may put anti-fatigue mats near the counters to relatively lower the counters based on your position standing on thick mats, and then make sure no mats are present at the sink in order to maximize the sink's height to you. As mentioned earlier, if you have a large kitchen, you may want to incorporate several different heights of countertops for different tasks. If you did that, then you could put the stretch of countertop that contains the sink higher than anything else. Most people don't have a large enough kitchen to make this plan feasible.

Remember that cabinetry installers could end up raising the countertops up to 1/2" with the shimming process to level everything, so count that into your cabinetry calculations. Yes, I have an apron-front workstation sink and actually haven't used the cutting board in it due to the relative ease of putting the cutting board on the countertop and the fact that the cutting board takes up too much room in my 42" wide sink next to the 18" wide strainer I leave in the sink at all times.

One thing we may not have discussed is that raising the countertops to the heights that we are talking about can incur exorbitant upcharges with some cabinetry suppliers. If you are facing resistance with the increased height, continue to shop around for a supplier who will charge reasonable fees to give you those few extra inches on the cabinetry height.

Given what you have told us about your severe back pain and your height of 5'10", I do feel that an apron-front sink would suit your purposes well. Since writing my previous comment to you, I have paid attention to how much I feel that my apron-front sink contributes to the ergonomics of my sink setup, and I really do feel that it is major. An apron allows you to stand right up next to it and to wash dishes almost right up next to your body, and that keeps you from leaning forward which is a primary cause of back pain in the kitchen. I also adjust my Brizo articulating faucets frequently to adapt to different tasks, and the articulating faucets are wonderful additions to the workstation sink.