Water quality problem - our pipes or city supply?
jchmch
6 years ago
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6 years agoeinportlandor
6 years agoRelated Discussions
Water leak at pipe /connector in the water meter box on my side
Comments (5)Old galvanized pipes have a finite lifespan. If you repair this leak, you have a good chance of it developing another leak in another location. The only good solution is a complete pipe replacement. The major expense of a pipe replacement will involve the digging of the trench from the meter to the house. This is an area where a DIYer can save some money. Have the utilities companies come out and mark the location of the pipe and any other utilities going to the home. Then you can choose a route parallel to the current pipe but just far enough away from it that you aren't disturbing it. You can rent a trencher (Maybe $200) and hand dig the larger access points at the meter and house. Then you can call a plumber to lay the pipe and make the connections. If you are not physically capable of doing this, then do you have any family or friends that would be? Church group? Scout troop? There are usually community resources that can help you to figure out what you can do here. The worst thing you can do is to ignore the leak....See MoreBanging pipe(s): Problem or just nuisance?
Comments (4)Strapping the pipe down will most likely magnify the transmission of sound. Water hammer is the result of flow being stopped abruptly and bouncing back and forth in the pipe between two positively shut-off valves or appliances such as a clothes washer with a fill solenoid and a backflow preventer or many pressure reducing valves. Higher water pressure isnÂt the cause of water hammer but it sure can cause the system to meet the threshold it can handle or make it worse. Do a internet search on water hammer and water hammer arrestors....See MoreHouse water supply pipe size
Comments (8)Far too often people get one of those silly little pressure gages that have a female hose thread adapter and attach that to a hose bib or laundry faucet and blindly assume the pressure they see is the actual working pressure of their system but such is not the case. When you attach one of those gages to a faucet then open the faucet to take the reading the gage is blocking the outlet thus for all intents and purposes they are still recording the pressure in a closed system. The basic laws of physics state that the pressure will remain constant at all points in a closed system however, the moment that we open a faucet and allow water to flow the pressure throughout the system immediately drops to "Dynamic Head Pressure" or more commonly stated as "Working Pressure." Dynamic head or Working head pressure is Static Head pressure minus "Friction Head Loss" and "Vertical Static Head Loss". Water physically weighs 0.434lbs per vertical inch column therefore to compute vertical static head loss we must measure the actual vertical rise from the point where we measure the pressure to the point of demand. As an example; let us assume a two-story house where the water line enters the basement near the floor and the shower is on the second floor. Typically we would have an 8 rise to the ceiling plus 1 for the floor joists and flooring material on the first floor, 8.5 to the ceiling and another 1 for floor joists and flooring material to the second floor and finally a 5.5 rise to the showerhead for a total vertical rise of 24Â. The vertical static head loss from the main water shutoff valve to the showerhead would then be 0.434psi x 24 = 10.4psi loss. Now assume that we measure the pressure at the main water shutoff valve and we get 45psi. This means that the absolute maximum pressure at your showerhead would then be 45psi minus 10.4psi = 34.6psi. From this we would then need to subtract friction head loss to determine the actual pressure at your showerhead. In the original post they stated that the pressure and volume is fine when only one faucet is opened but it decreases rapidly as two or more demands are opened. That is because "Friction Head Loss" increases dramatically as the velocity of flow increases. By example, let us continue to examine what happens if just the shower is used. Let us assume that in addition to the 24 vertical rise there is a 10 horizontal offset from where the supply line enters the basement to where it rises up to the shower therefore the total length of the line inside the house from the water main to the shower is 24 vertical plus 10 horizontal for a total of 34Â. (Technically we would need to also add in the fitting insertion losses but for now we will disregard them). The post states that they have a ¾" supply line that is 200 long. Let us assume the line to the shower to be a ½" line 34 long and the shower is rated for a flow rate of 2.5gpm. We measured 45psi at the main water shutoff valve and as was previously stated the pressure is constant at all points in a closed system so it then stands that the pressure at the prime mover (municipal main) is also 45psi however when flow begins friction head loss also begins at the prime mover. The post states that the existing supply line is ¾" and let us assume it is continuous roll PE-SDR pipe (black poly-which has one of the lowest friction loss factors). Consulting the PE-SDR friction loss table we find that at 2.5gpm the loss is 1.5psi/100ft and we have 200 so the loss is 3psi from the municipal main to the main water shutoff valve. Assuming the ½ line to the bathroom is copper we then consult the type L copper pipe friction head loss table and find that for the 34 run from the main to the showerhead we have a net loss of 0.118psi/foot x 34 = 4.02psi so at 2.5gpm the total friction head loss is 3psi + 4.02psi = 7.02psi (round off to 7psi) The static head pressure was 45psi and dynamic head pressure is static head pressure minus vertical static head loss + friction head loss so the actual pressure at the showerhead is 45psi  7psi  38psi. That is not bad pressure if we could be assured that no one would turn on any other fixture while we are taking our shower however the plumbing code requires that when we design a water supply system it must be capable of maintaining certain minimum pressure standards in a worst-case scenario where all the demands in the structure are open simultaneously. Under the UPC we would use the FU (Fixture Unit) method as I described in my previous post whereas under the IRC we use a minimum gpm rate for each fixture. Both methods will ultimately arrive at the same solution so for simplicity let us use the IRC demand rates here. Bob sent me an email stating that he has the following fixtures: 4 sink faucets 2 toilets 2 bathtubs 1 shower 3 hose bibs outside When I examined the list I was a bit confused. With 2 toilets I am assuming he has two bathrooms and one of the sinks is obviously a kitchen sink so I am guessing that he has a master bath with both a tub & a shower and perhaps 2 lavatories but on the other hand one of the sinks could also be a laundry sink. From IRC table 2903-1 we get the following minimum pressure and flow rates to each fixture. BathtubÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂ.4gpmÂÂ8psi Shower (temp controlled)Â3gpmÂÂ..20psi LavatoryÂÂÂÂÂÂÂ..2gpmÂÂ.8psi Kitchen sinkÂÂÂÂÂÂ.2.5gpmÂ.8psi Water Closet(tank type)..Â3gpmÂ....8psi Laundry hookupÂÂÂÂ..4gpmÂÂ8psi Hose bib #1ÂÂÂÂÂÂ.5gpmÂÂ8psi Hose Bib#2ÂÂÂÂÂÂ.5gpmÂÂ.8psi TOTAL LOADÂÂÂÂ28.5gpm Although not mentioned, if he has a dishwasher that would add another 2.75gpm. Now let us examine the Friction loss table once again. With a flow rate of 28gpm the velocity of flow through his ¾" PE-SDR line is 16.82feet/sec or more than 4 times the maximum allowable 4ft/sec and at this rate the line will exhibit severe pipe wall and fitting erosion resulting in premature line failure and the friction loss is 59.41psi/100 of pipe. Given that his line is 200 long @ 28gpm the total friction head loss is 2x 59.41psi = 118.82psi thus the friction head loss is more than twice the supply pressure of 45psi and with all fixtures open at best he would barely get a trickle of water and no noticeable pressure. Even increasing to a 1" line would still result in a 36.5psi friction head loss from the municipal main to the main water shutoff at the house. On the other hand if the line from the main to the structure was increased to 2" the friction head loss through the supply line would be reduced to 1.36psi and the resultant pressure at the house main shutoff valve would be 45-1.36= 43.64psi which remains slightly above the code minimum supply pressure of 40psi....See MoreWater softener decision for Austin, Texas city water
Comments (9)>> first ... salt is used to clean the filtering membrane ... and thru the flushing series.. you should NOT be drinking any salt ... it took me a long time to wrap my head around that part ... lol ... if that were not true.. everyone who owns a salt system.. would have high blood pressure. .. and trust me.. once you go rural.. a heck of a lot of peeps have this type of system .... Good point. I hesitated to even mention it just because I thought it was a silly concern, but there it was in the back of my mind... visualizing drinking salt water. >> second ... think about how much it cost you to replace the shower head .. vs what you are thinking about spending to avoid that cost ... e.g. with kids.. i have 20 to 30 dollar plastic shower heads ... and when they start to get clogged.. i replace them ... i can buy and screw on a lot of shower heads.. for the cost of a filtration system ... Funny you mention this exact example. My favorite shower head (vs about 5 others I've tried and returned) is: Delta Vintage 4-in 2.5-GPM (9.5-LPM) Brushed Nickel 5-Spray Hand Shower Lowes Item #: 272101 : Model #: 75525SN http://www.deltafaucet.com/bath/details/75525sn.html $49.98 USD from Lowes http://www.lowes.com/pd_272101-72981-75525SN_0_?productId=3421066&Ntt=delta+shower+5+speed&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Ddelta%2Bshower%2B5%2Bspeed&facetInfo= In downstairs hall bathroom, both the sink and shower had significantly diminished pressure. 1 week ago my plumber fixed it (removed the built-up deposits from both) and removed the water saver from the shower head at my request. I enjoyed the good water pressure for all of 5 seconds before the shower head neck cracked and water started going everywhere. Decided to just replace the entire thing myself. It then occurred to me that replacing it would have been cheaper than trying to fix it. >> even if you have a very expensive shower head ... it still seems to be over kill to spend hundreds or thousands on a filter system ... >> i dont know your circumstances .... but just trying to clarify your thought process ... You drive the key question - what am I trying to accomplish? Relative to claimed benefits from water softeners in general: - I don't feel a compelling need to make the water "feel" differently or "softer". It feels fine as-is. - I don't really care about using less soap when I wash. Maybe I doubt that I'd change my habits... In priority order, what I DO care about is: - Not having to re-plumb the house due to deposit buildups in the pipes. I believe my plumbing is all PVC, no copper. I'm not sure how much of a problem this is or could be in a 15 yr old house. - Taking good care of the dedicated icemaker. Good tasting ice is my guilty pleasure. We use lots of it. I've had 3 icemakers at this house. The first 2 failed much sooner than I expected. Not sure why. dead: $1319 for U-Line Echelon CLR2060b Clear Ice Maker (CLR2060) in 2003 dead: $1479 for U-Line BI-2115B-00 2000 Series 15 Crescent Ice Maker in 2007 current: $3663 for Hoshizaki nugget-style C-101-BAH-DS including a filter and installation in 2013 We all *love* the Sonic-type ice from the Hoshizaki (and I do the non-trivial maintenance religiously.) I'd like to keep this icemaker happy and healthy for as long as possible. Given that, is the cost and hassle worth it?...See MoreUser
6 years agojchmch
6 years agoJake The Wonderdog
6 years agojchmch
6 years agoUser
6 years agoBrandt F.
6 years agoUser
6 years ago
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