My main goal would be to get that range out of the corner before you set your house on fire, and ventilated before you all get gassed. It's not obvious how to do that without using at least the far end of the built-in wall, where something used to be. Am really guessing how these photos fit together, though -- even a sketched floorplan would help a lot.

You have a wooden table/island and a metal-topped eating area both in here? Where does the doorway to the right of the sink lead? there's both wood flooring and ... some brick flooring in here? Can't tell if the space is large or cramped!!

You might consider raising that window by the stove, which looks into an enclosed space anyway. Then you could have an L of counters extending onto that wall, which might give you enought space to move the sink and stove around a bit (barely) for a more sane arrangement. Not sure.

Otherwise, maybe some cabinets above the sink area, or at least shelves? and a hood for the stove? Then paint the built-ins all one color and call it a day? I can't really tell what you'd like to achieve.

What that kitchen needs is beyond 15K. Move the sink under the window with a shorter window and then move the range over to where the sink is now and vent it. That’s double your budget though. Keep saving.

Here’s a sad little sketch. Looking to fix the stove situation and replace the vinyl and basically clean and freshen everything up. The room itself is about 15x14 so this sketch is certainly not to scale.

Was going to replace the brown vinyl with patterned tile and run it along the front of the built ins and the sink wall so it looks like runners and like it’s purposeful. I’ve seen some pics of this done and it looks like a neat vintage touch. No idea why this tile was installed here (100 yr old home). And don’t want to replace the entire floor.

Beyond that lots of paint and some shifts to sink size and cabinets on the sink wall to be able to move the range over a smidge and install a recirculating fan.

Current island and table will go and am looking to figure out an island with room for seating two. There’s a large dining room just off the kitchen so don’t need more seating than that here.

Wonder if there’s an old house forum here? This might be better suited there, where these small hodgepodge kitchens are more common.

Hi Phamm,

Greetings from another oldie, our rowhouse was built in 1900!

LOVE your transom window!

How tall are your ceilings?

I would remove the wall between the kitchen and butler's pantry so you have a larger kitchen. If it is load bearing, replacing with a hidden beam to support the opening may eat the $15K, but overall, would be worth it, IMO. I would hate to schlep food from the fridge to the sink for prep. Getting those 2 work horses together would be a major focus for me, even it the wall stays put.

9 feet, Janie. Love our century old homes! And You understand, then ... the old “servants kitchen” is one of the downfalls of these old houses. But everything else rocks!

Someone suggested one of those column fridges in the spot where the table is ... I’ve never seen them in person but love the idea!

But then you’d have to find equal room for a freezer. And you’ve shot your budget just on two appliances.

When you say 15x14, you mean including the "butler's pantry" (which I assume is the area with your fridge), correct?

Go to this link and send a message to Buehl, she is FANTASTIC!

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/4306041/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first?n=264

15x 14 is just the main kitchen but it’s not a straight square ... butlers pantry is about 8 feet by 8 feet ... the wall that separates the two rooms is a back staircase leading to second floor and a stairwell leading to the basement ... not a viable option for us to combine the rooms

I don't think she does -- I think it's 14 from sink to table wall. Look at all the stuff that's fitting now!

You have PLENTY of room for a real island, where you could add counter space and lots of deep drawers for pans and so forth, and seating on the far side. You could probably do that plus shelves over your current sink zone. If you do a real island's worth of cabinetry and countertop, plus some lights above to make it useful, you'll have spent a lot of your budget.

In an ideal world, your new island might include the sink and DW, in which case you'd have freedom to move the stove over and surround it with cooking storage. But that will depend on your labor costs for plumbing (water and gas) and what kind of foundation you're on -- it might not cost much more to make those big shifts than the smaller one(s) you were considering, since both require new plumbing work, as long as you have an open basement for accessing the pipes.

That's the reno I'd do -- no walls, keeping the built-ins, but making the main zone WAY more useful. You'll need some kitchen design help, and to use budget cabinets (I'd say Ikea, but that might be hard to match to the historic style of your other cabinetry), but it might just be possible with no new appliances. Get a sketch and then some estimates from contractors, and you'll know whether it's better to spend or save a bit longer.

Waving hands over the measurements here. I'm giving you an island around 6' long and 3' across (to account for 12" for counter height stools). You can place your range anywhere along the wall, as long as the doors of DW and oven clear each other -- depends on whether you have two chefs (i.e,, need to use sink and cook top) at the same time often. There should be enough space for a good walkway on either side of island, and probably room for a hutch or other vertical set of shelves between the doorways (but not really your fridge, sorry).

Anyway, without the sink, you're looking at like 3 base cabinets on the range wall, which isn't much, and maybe one small one (bank of drawers?) + sink base on island. Even at a few hundred per cabinet (real cabinets from a box store), that won't threaten the budget, as long as you can do the plumbing part and so forth for a decent amount. At worst, you put open shelves on either side of the hood or microwave over your range; at best, you get another 3-4 wall cabinets for that wall and you're done. It's going to take careful research and planning, but I think you might be able to do it. Good luck!

(p.s.) when you're modernizing all the rest, you might consider having the ornamental scalloped moldings removed from your built-ins, unless you like a country feel (which your table and art wouldn't indicate). Will shave decades from their look. I'd leave the wooden counter top there for now, to save what could be a temptation to a pricey substitution (and because I think it looks really nice).

Oh my goodness! I love your kitchen and cabinets. I hope you're going to keep as many of those cabinets as you can. Paint will do wonders. I use the Sherwin Williams acrylic alkyd paint for the most incredible finish. You will be able to do wonders with the 15K!

The stove needs to be moved for sure :) I am going to look back at your drawings but first wanted to just say how cute this is!

Is there space to recess a fridge under the stairs?

Is your kitchen over a cellar or crawlspace? Is the stove currently on an outside wall?

If I had your built in cabinet wall, with the scallops, I would not change it at all, except to improve the mechanics... make sure the hinges are working properly, doors aligned, new drawer slides, etc. That is a priceless set of cabinets.

Kitchen is over a basement, mimimomy. Stove is adjacent to a mudroom ... the wall to the left of the stove, which leads to mudroom, is a brick wall; the wall behind the stove is the dining room where there’s original walnut wainscoting with a platerail; it runs about 3/4 way up the wall ... so we’re concerned about drilling into that back wall and ruining the dining room ... I’m assuming you’re asking to suggest outside ventilation?

Definitely removing the scalloped trim from the built ins, @acm ... we will replace with basic trim that mimics the top of cabinets or doorframe

Not enough room to recess the fridge, mama goose. Even if we reorient the access to the basement it would bump into fridge ... the back staircase going upstairs already juts into stairwell going into basement ... but I wonder if we can recess a slim pantry? That would open up some of the clearances (walkway from back staircase, walkway from butlers pantry, etc) to help us go with a longer island as some have suggested. I’m going to look into that!

Hi. Yes, was curious about that. When we got married we remodeled an old house (probably about the same age as yours). We didn't have the beautiful built-ins. So I was thinking of the feasibility of putting the range in an island, rather than moving your plumbing. We got a jennair-style (back then Amana made one at a far more reasonable price) downdraft range which worked great and didn't need an overhead fan. Of course, I see you have gas, so if you're sticking with that, I don't know how downdrafts work with gas :)

As you're over a basement, re-plumbing the sink shouldn't be too difficult.

It seems to me at any rate, that acm's island idea is a good one. You could add the sink and the dishwasher into the island and have room for at least 3 or 4 barstools.

If you put the frig and range on the wall where the range and sink are now, I think there would be adequate space. I'd go with a tall narrow cabinet about a foot wide that sits behind the window trim. I'd use a counter depth frig, then a run of counter, then the range, then maybe a foot of space to the right of the range.I think your remodel depends on what you want to accomplish. Are you trying to do this for resale, or because you want your daily life to be more convenient/better?

For me, there is one remodel that is all about resale.... then, there is another type that is all about what I love and how I want to live, and has very little to do with what is "in," although that doesn't mean I don't factor in things that will make it saleable.

What I've found is that if I do what I love, someone else will also love it.

Could you measure the line of cabinets from the window over to the right hand doorway (that I think goes into your dining room)?

This frig is counter depth and 28" wide. It's extra tall. It might help you with counter space.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/haier-15-cu-ft-4-door-french-door-refrigerator-stainless-steel/5711951.p?skuId=5711951&ref=199&loc=zhehdLHc0f8&acampID=1&siteID=zhehdLHc0f8-lzibGXk8zaN.MPXqLFDOVQ

You need to save that 15K until you can do a proper job. Once you start doing things, the job will snowball and you will be spending 30K and still nowhere where you need to be. Especially as this is a very, very old house that will possibly need new insulation, wiring, plumbing, etc.

Read this first please....

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first-dsvw-vd~4306041

Then read this....

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/things-you-added-or-removed-that-you-love-regret-in-your-kitchen-renov-dsvw-vd~4273188

The sink wall is 9 ft 10 inches @mimimomy. we’re looking to freshen it up and improve it for ourselves. This isn’t the forever house, but we likely won’t sell within five years either.

Yes, I understand @kathi. A total paint job and new floor tiles have to happen ... paint is chipping and the tiles are torn in some areas. It snowballs once I think about trying to improve the range situation (move it away from the window).

Hi phamm. So, a shallow 10" cabinet to fit behind the window trim.
Can just be open shelving, or a broom closet, and just to bridge the gap
so that you no longer have a stove against the window, and to allow
door swing for the frig. Now, the frig, 36" (if keeping your current
frig). This leaves you with 6'. If you leave 12" to the right of the
stove (near the dining room door), you will have 2.5' between the frig
and the stove. (I think... please check my math).

Put the sink and dishwasher in the island, have seating at the island.

A 30" frig would give you more counter space. You could keep your
current stove and dishwasher for now. I'd probably update the sink to
granite composite because Franke has an incredible huge single bowl the
size of a double bowl but if your current sink is in good condition and
you like it, you can always reuse it.

Do you like butcher block counters? If you do, they are a beautiful and economical
alternative to all of the stone (also beautiful but decidedly more
expensive :)

I guess I'm pretty optimistic that you can do a nice update and make your kitchen much more functional within your budget :)

Do you have any recos on a good source for butcher block, mimimomy? I’m hesitant to do them near a sink or stove though, worried about wear and cleanup ... but it’s a possibility for the built ins where there’s already a wood countertop (badly worn with nailed on trim pieces though),

ikea, floor and decor,,they have decent butcher blocks. want to really save? make one yourself from doug fir boards for about 200 bucks. (how to's all over Pinterest for the links).

you live near a big city? save more money and look on craigslist for appliances. you can find brand new with tiny dents or lightly used ones. also check on there for left over tile and flooring,,,remnants, wood, etc. great deals.

look into pre fab granite countertops. they cost about 350 for a 9'x22" piece. you will have to find a fabricator that will cut if for you. (unless you are handy and can do it your self).

I'd get some simple subway tile and tile that entire wall behind the stove and make my own wood shelving. again, get some 1x6 boards, cut, stain and float them on the wall.

Hi Phamm. We have gotten butcher block from both Ikea and Menards. Not sure where you live so I don't know if you have access to these. You will find lots of blogs using Ikea. Here is a photo of a historic house re-do using lots of Ikea products.

[https://www.houzz.com/photos/historic-ikea-kitchen-kitchen-phoenix-phvw-vp~367871[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/historic-ikea-kitchen-kitchen-phoenix-phvw-vp~367871)

I haven't used them, but some people have good experiences with Lumber Liquidators. There are also a surprising number of sources on the internet that will provide custom sizes.

For your built-ins, unless you're using that counter for food-related purposes, it may be you can continue to use the existing counter. I think it all depends on what level of "new" you want. I once "repurposed" a cherry dining table into countertops in my laundry. I didn't particularly care for the cherry (don't know why!) so I painted it with black chalkboard paint and coated with water based poly. It already had a nice beveled edge :)

A lot of people seem to use the ikea cabinet boxes as the structure of their kitchen, then finish up with custom doors/drawer fronts. The kitchen I'm currently remodeling, I plan to use Barker doors out of California (http://www.barkerdoor.com/) for doors/drawer fronts/drawer slides/hinges. My kitchen has a decent layout and I plan to use the existing frames which were custom built in the late 60's, primarily because I want a mechanical update (self-closing drawers, quiet close door hinges, etc). This will cost thousands less than replacing all of the original cabinet frames. I haven't used Barker doors yet, but I have seen many good reviews. I did email them a question regarding measurements, etc., and they responded within a day, which I thought was fantastic.

My husband wants to use butcherblock in this kitchen as well, because we've used it in two kitchens and really like it. We used an Ikea single bowl Domsjo apron front sink for one (the one in the link above I believe is the Domsjo double bowl sink), and a drop in granite composite sink in the other. We treated both regularly with mineral oil and have had zero problems with the butcherblock around the sink. A new piece of butcher block we are actually treating with walnut oil, as apparently it will actually harden the surface.

Sorry this is such a long post.

I love the builtin cabinets along the wall in the kitchen! It looks like a lovely house.

We are in the midst of renovating our 1920 kitchen with a separate refrigerator room.

I love old houses, but the kitchens can be a challenge. I would encourage you to look at the thread on how to ask for help and draw both the complete layout of your house and the kitchen with measurements. My guess from the picture is that the length of the wall between the stair door and the opening to the fridge room is much shorter than it appears in the picture.

If the window is to the mudroom, is covering over the window or raising it so it is above the counter an option?

The problem with old kitchens is that the costs that are not really DIY items run up quickly...if the basement is open it is not necessarily that moving the gas line to the stove that is high budget, but that you need to add ventilation and duct work. Has electrical been updated or are you still on knob and tube wiring?

Our kitchen is smaller, so to make the layout work we need to incorporate the fridge room into the house...and this means a steel beam to support two floors of brick house. You have a little more room to work with in your kitchen, but still have the problem that we had...a shortage of continuous walls to put workspace next to appliances.

I would think carefully about your budget...when we started our renovation we spent a lot of time thinking about what is an appropriate amount to spend on a house that is at our price point. There is a lot of benefit of reworking the kitchen to get the stove vented and off the wall, but that is going to be expensive.

Pajarito, who did you source the base/box cabinetry from?

Is it necessary to vent a "standard" non-commercial gas range to the outdoors? If so, maybe it's more cost-effective to switch to an electric or induction range?

We had someone build them locally but was unable to the complete the job. The reason we had to order the custom size doors.

Hmm mimimomy, I do prefer gas but ... I don’t know the answer to that ... something to look into.

You should be venting every stove to the outdoors. It's not a matter of the heat source, it's a matter of getting rid of the odors and grease in the air. If you think you don't have grease in the air when you cook, take a look at your stove top. No grease?

Definitely grease, but we will have to either do a downdraft option or recirculating hood in here. Venting outdoors isn’t going to be feasible for us

My point was changing your heat source has nothing to do with venting.

Venting to the outside is not generally a code requirement as far as I can tell *I am not an expert*. Where I live, even a recirculating hood isn't required, so long as you have a window that opens in the kitchen. Induction/electric ranges I haven't seen any requirements to vent to outside, but for gas, there seems to be a bit of a question... e.g. if you have a "commercial" style range vs. a "standard" gas range. So, the code requirements *might* be different for different heat sources where phamm lives.

Grease/fumes notwithstanding, I was wondering just about the code requirements for outside vent, as well the safety issue with gas. If there were more stringent requirements for gas, and venting to the outdoors isn't feasible, a move to electric/induction might be worthwhile.

I realize however that outside venting *may* provide better removal of odors/grease... although I think a lot of that depends on the distance to the outdoors as well as the capacity of the exhaust fan.

For what it's worth, the best outdoor venting I had was the downdraft. I think it captures the grease/fumes/steam before it has any opportunity to disperse. And it was a lot quieter that the over-the-cooktop hood I had installed for a through-the-roof scenario.

I have no problems using a recirculating hood now, as they have improved a lot, I prefer to do my cooking in the oven, and I don't use very much oil in cooking... but of course that is not the situation for everyone! When my current smoothtop electric cooktop dies, I am going to go with induction :) If you haven't watched the youtube videos of people putting newspapers/paper towels on the induction cooktop, deep frying food, then throwing the newspaper/paper towels away revealing a perfectly clean surface, you might want to!

Looking into a downdraft ... I’ve heard mixed reviews on jenn air. Another person recommended Dacor, though I’ve not heard of them...

It’s super simple to vent to the exterior with the range on the wall that it is currently. The pipe merely needs to make a single 90 degree turn and run through the top shelf of a tall cabinet to the exterior. It’s shirt and easy.

Not venting is just gross. Smelly fish and cabbage lingering for days along with the grease and steam carried into your soft furnishings. Yuck.

To clarify, we’re considering adding in the island ... we have a small freestanding one at the moment. The idea of the island was to fit in two bar stools and to pull the DW off the back wall, where it’s currently located. I know outdoor venting is ideal but a contractor told me we’d need two bends to get it outdoors and that would significantly decrease the effectiveness; it would also require drilling through 12 inch brick wall and original walnut wainscoting that is on the other side of the wall. I’ve lived with recirculating fans in a condo; am told Downdrafting is a bit better than that. Looking into recos for a downdraft oven.

I thought of moving the sink to the island but we don’t have space to move the sink and also get 12 inches of countertop on either side; that would interfere with the side door and pathways. Same issue when considering the range. So dishwasher seemed most viable option. @sophie, maybe I need to bring someone else in to look at external venting situation ... just scared someone will destroy the dining room woodwork on the other side; it’s beautiful.

Downdraft is useless. A serious waste of money that could go to the much more effective overhead venting. One bend and straight through the wall is all it takes. Converting from round to square is easy. And space saving. Done this hundreds of times. If not thousands.

The sink needs to go under the window. Look at Casey’s remodel for inspiration for that. You need an L shape and small island.

The window wall isn’t an exterior wall so it needs a second bend to vent out the mudroom properly, otherwise it would vent onto the back stairs. This is the other side of range wall. I like the l-shaped countertop idea but it would mean replacing the window ... isn’t that a huge deal in an old house like this, with 12 inch brick walls, plus redoing frame and trim etc?

If it’s not an exterior window, then it doesn’t need to be a window. The window itself can be removed. Then the space can be a pass through with a millwork panel fill in on the other side that coordinates with the home’s other millwork. Easy. Venting through the ceiling joists in a flat duct straight to the exterior is easy, but involves some demo and plaster repair. You need to find out which way your joists run.