Thats a good idea and would probably be a very popular post. "Help me with my living room" has over 1,000 comments.

And then there's my thread too. Suzy, I feel for you. Same for you nidnay.

"Sabrina....all the intricate details were designed and figured out while meeting with the first cabinet guy (size and style of moldings etc. I also had a specific cabinet box design, and remember, this was for an entire house -......................................"

. "Cabinet guy backs out after all the time and effort. Returns the deposit (my builder no longer works with this company due to issues).
Now we are in a crunch to find another cabinet guy which my builder then supplies. Meet with the new guy and go over all the details again, prices too high so then meet with a third guy"

The problem is basically the conflict between the highlighted truths.

The first guy underbid and backed out, the second bid accurately and you didn't love the price,...........and here you are?

Nidnay lets just say we will not get our TCO by the end of this week when the builder shuts down for two weeks. That will cost us $3000 a year more in taxes every single year

"That will cost us $3000 a year more in taxes every single year."

Now that's worth suing over.

I don't get something from the original post... You signed off on the design and cabinet maker accepted the deposit. That is a solid contract and cabinet maker is liable to deliver goods on time as it was promised. If you accepted the deposit back, you reversed the contract and from that point, nobody has any obligations and there is nothing you can do at this point or hold anyone liable.

If you didn't accept the deposit return, would have been a different story, that cabinet company would be liable for everything, including the price difference (if it was more expensive in comparison to the kitchen you agreed) and they would be liable for any damages caused due to delays... simply put they would have "breached the contract".

I thought the deposit was returned to the contractor.

Banks don’t like to loan on raw land, as the total loan will far exceed the value of the property. Banks protect themselves by parceling out the money one stage of build at a time. It is understandable, for why would a bank want land with a partial build?

Assuming your put your own money down to get the loan…20%? If you are a customer with the bank, meet with the commercial lender and offer to put more of your own money toward the principle.

If the bank sees more equity, provided by you, they may relax a bit.

Don't matter, the party who accepted the deposit is liable to deliver the goods. If the cabinet guy works for the builder and everything goes through the builder, he represents the builder and he is liable for breach of contract. If the builder accepted back the deposit, he let the kitchen guy off the hook and now the builder is the one whois is liable to deliver the goods because the contract is still in effect. Only the HO can let someone out of it by agreeing to take back the money when HO does that the contract is terminated.

If the builder gave cabinet allowance to the HO and they can go find their own cabinet maker and he has nothing to do with it (except a few clause accepted to him and the HO) he shouldn't stick his nose where it doesn't belong and he had no right to accept the deposit without HO approval...By taking back the deposit he strapped himself to the liability to deliver the goods.

But there was a dust up between the builder and cabinet co due to failure to perform on other jobs, so the builder had a duty to protect the owner once he became aware of the issues and to cover his ass.

It doesn't matter Suzy, whatever happened between them both that is between them both, one or both of them still liable to the terms of the contract.

As I mentioned before, my post was mainly concerning ethics. There is zero contemplation here of taking legal action or trying to ascertain who is contractually liable.

Here’s the deal. Maybe it’s just a matter of personality types. Speaking for myself, I would feel 100% responsible if I was hired to do a job for someone and the people I chose to execute the task completely flaked out or did a terrible job. If it put my client (or even a friend) out and/or caused unnecessary expense I would feel devastated and consider myself totally responsible for failing the person who was counting on me and putting their trust in me. I would feel the weight of it...heavily. Doesn’t matter that it wasn’t me that actually dropped the ball....I was the one who was hired, and I accepted the job of taking on the full responsibility of the project.... there was someone counting on me. They had put their trust in me and placed everything in my hands..... I would take that very seriously.

In my view, when a builder makes the commitment to oversee a project from beginning to end, in essence he’s saying to his new client, you can count on me fully to oversee your project....I take complete responsibility for those I have chosen to do the work. I won’t let you down and if, for some reason, my people fall short or mess up, that is MY responsibility.... I will take up the slack and make good on my commitment even where others have not. Period.

"In very few other businesses are people allowed to continually blow the budget, not show up, and delay work and then have no penalty and take no responsibility."

Alison, that only happens when companies are not held accountable. That being said, everything comes down to a contract and the clause in it. Delays, they happen all the time BUT the delay should have a reasonable timetable depending on the project size. As an example, if I'm doing a job (let's say new home construction), and due to weather, inspections etc, it took 1 month longer to complete... that is a reasonable delay. If I left the job so I could do another job and because of that it took 6 months to complete, I would expect someone to hold me accountable and I would never even consider doing that to anyone.

I'm meeting someone this week, they got a building permit and everything approved to build an addition and they signed the contract with GC in June... Now it's December, and nothing been done and they want this to be done yesterday. If they held that GC accountable in July, I bet you that addition would have been done already. But they didn't and now they cannot move in into a new house until everything is done and they carry 2 houses. So who is here to blame?

If you accepted the deposit back, you reversed the contract and from that point, nobody has any obligations and there is nothing you can do at this point or hold anyone liable.

If the builder accepted back the deposit, he let the kitchen guy off the hook and now the builder is the one whois is liable to deliver the goods because the contract is still in effect.

Apologize for the bluntness, but stop giving legal advice when you don't know what you are talking about. I assure you that a return of the deposit is not a release in any way, shape, form or fashion. There is a stack of case law to back this up that is a mile high and 5 miles wide. Your deposit has nothing to do with the contract being formed, nothing to do with the contract being released, and nothing to do with the contract being in breach. Nothing at all.

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If you are someone who takes a deposit (or even don't), and want to back out of the agreement, when you return the deposit (or back out) send a bit extra, noted as a cancellation penalty. At that point you have offered consideration in recompense for the damages caused by cancelling the job and it has been accepted. Courts will make you pay the damage that your breach caused, but if a payment for damages is accepted it is deemed paid in full at that point, and the courts will not wade in on whether or not the consideration was sufficient.

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My lawyer told me I'd pay him that much to recover IF we won.

This is one of my personal pet peeves with many attorneys, they don't want to deal with your case and they feed you a line of crap that is both true, yet very misleading. What the attorney was really telling you was that he didn't want to get drug into this mess that was likely to eat up valuable time and end in no real big paycheck for him.

What he should have went on to say, is that if your case is good you are also protected by the defendant being in the same position only without a choice. Plaintiffs always have more power in court because they can drop the case at any time, defendants have less power because they can't.

Just like spending $10k to collect is a bad idea, spending $10k to defend is a bad idea too, especially if you are likely to lose, because then you may have to pay your attorney fees, the damages, and the plaintiff's attorney fees. The plaintiff always has less money on the line than defendant.

For this reason cases usually settle, sometimes with nothing more than a demand letter. You write a demand letter threatening a law suit but asking for a reduced payment if settled out of court. Then you file the case, and offer mediation after filed, but before appearances. Most times, that is all it takes, most businessmen are smart enough not to throw good money after bad. Most lawsuits are really a game of chicken, you just have to know when to swerve aside. For the love of everything good, don't go to court over a small contract dispute, settle it out of court for a reasonable or even a very low amount.

There is still a risk of losing a bit more money if the defendant starts acting irrationally, and then you just have take your lumps. It may not be worth that risk for a few hundred dollars or even a couple of thousand.

Sophie... It has everything to do with ethics (which concern the moral principles that govern a persons behavior).

GN, so who should I hold accountable in my new build? When it took the builder 3 months after we got the permit to pour the foundation because he couldn't get a sub to do the job? And when our contract says best efforts to finish the house within a year? Is a 3 month delay in starting considered best efforts?

Or who should be accountable now when the flooring guy didn't level the floor and now my wood floors are on a slow boat from Sweden and won't be here until the end of January?

How about when back in September the pool builder said he'd have the pool built within 6 weeks and it's still not done? He works for the builder and his excuse is he's having trouble getting subs.

Or how my roof was supposed to be finished in October but was just finished last week? Again because of subs?

Sorry but I agree with Allison. If you complete your builds on time and with the quality expected great but you are few and far between in the building industry.

And good luck getting a fixed cost contract in CA; none of the contractors I talk to would assume the risk. These are ethical builders, but construction is a dirty business. So many ways to point fingers.

Here’s the deal. Maybe it’s just a matter of personality types. Speaking for myself, I would feel 100% responsible if I was hired to do a job for someone and the people I chose to execute the task completely flaked out or did a terrible job.

Think I get what you are saying. The first guy did you wrong and without any apologies. You could never imagine doing that to anyone and without a clear explanation.

@gpeach1......

”Think I get what you are saying. The first guy did you wrong and without any apologies. You could never imagine doing that to anyone and without a clear explanation.”

BINGO!

And good luck getting a fixed cost contract in CA; none of the contractors I talk to would assume the risk. These are ethical builders, but construction is a dirty business.

I think it is important to understand that in a fully spec'd contract there is no difference between cost plus and fixed price. In the end, if you have fully spec'd all of your finishes and have gotten bids from all the subs, then all of the costs are known in a cost plus contract so it becomes a firm price.

In reality, it may be unreasonable to either fully spec everything or fully bid everything, but you can get close with reasonable ease with proper planning.

"...I think it is important to understand that in a fully spec'd contract there is no difference between cost plus and fixed price. In the end, if you have fully spec'd all of your finishes and have gotten bids from all the subs, then all of the costs are known in a cost plus contract so it becomes a firm price..."

Aye, there's the rub, you see. In a fixed price contract, the general contractor must get firm bids on all the work (unless allowances are permitted). This contract transfers all the risk to the builder. You can assume that the general contractor will also add a contingency. Wouldn't you?

On the other hand, on a cost plus contract, there's no pressure on the general contractor to get any bids, since all the work is simply "direct cost", plus whatever OH and profit markup is specified. Like a time and materials contract, this contract transfers all the risk to the consumer.

To meet somewhere in the middle, with builder and consumer sharing the risk, a "cost plus, guaranteed not to exceed" contract is sometimes used. In this case, as an incentive to the builder to complete the project under the "not to exceed cost", a 50%-50% sharing back to the contractor is frequently used, where the builder gets 50% of whatever savings may result below the "not to exceed" price.

I certainly agree that it's always a good idea to design, detail and specify as completely as reasonably possible, and to minimize allowances.

It's also a good idea to understand the various types of construction contracts and how they handle risk.

Well there is a difference, because with fixed the builder is assuming responsibility for increasing costs for building materials such as lumber and steel which are constantly fluctuating. Also unless otherwise specified weather related expenses. With cost plus, the builder is protected from price increases and guaranteed the plus.

To me, a builder is only as good as his subs. When they mess up, it’s the builder who is messing up plain and simple. I do not envy the position of the builder. They definitely have it hard. Their subs flake out and that falls on them.

There have been mistakes and downright negligence on the part of some of the subs on my job. Some have been awesome, and others just don’t care. And some subs truly care, but the workers they hire are not skilled enough or don’t care. There is a long and convoluted string of people involved in a build, but ultimately, it’s the builders responsibility. Tough job for sure. But....it ain’t easy being the homeowner on the receiving end of all that either.

From my perspective as the homeowner, it’s not just the the delay in a build, but it is the continual pileup of mistakes, lack of oversight and responsibility taken that “breaks the camels back” so to speak.

@cpartist....read through your entire thread. Yours is the perfect example of the pileup I’m talking about. It’s interesting to see this happen as your thread continues. Building starts out fine with a little thing here and a little thing there and then more mistakes happen, and on and on it goes. The door thing regarding your builder refusing to do a fix/replace (can’t exactly remember the specifics), well that one really struck me because it was clearly his error, but you have now been put in the maddening position of feeling you are not able to push him to make good on his error. I don’t see how he can actually refuse and respond this way with a clear conscience? It’s his mistake and his responsibility to fix it, but somehow it all gets turned around and now the pressure is on you. You are expected to view it as a non issue and accept it the way it is. You are being picky and unreasonable if you see it otherwise. This just does not compute. Earlier on, after my interior doors were installed, I pointed out that one had the incorrect swing. I was expected to accept it the way it was and there was a push back and complaint from the builder of the added expense it would be to him. Why was this even mentioned or a question?? Why the guilt trip laid on me for wanting the correct door swing? I would have expected “oops, we’ll get that switched out right away.” Responses from the builder to fix mistakes earlier in the process were very positive, but as they started to pile up, the stress of those things became enormous. I’m now at the point where I cringe with just the thought of telling my builder anything about mistakes, and I end up going through a huge internal conflict of how to approach the subject. This should not be.

"GN, so who should I hold accountable in my new build? When it took the builder 3 months after we got the permit to pour the foundation because he couldn't get a sub to do the job? And when our contract says best efforts to finish the house within a year? Is a 3 month delay in starting considered best efforts?"

@CPArtist

I don't know the answers to every scenario who these morons who call themselves "builders" "GC's" or "Contractors" hire and end up putting their clients into this predicaments. I work with professional contractors, and I never had half the issues I'm reading here in 30 years being in the construction industry.

But to answer your first question, in 3 months you can build a house and move the people in... So if someone tells you that a 3-month delay because it took 3 months to find a mason contractor to erect a foundation he is full of it.

"Or who should be accountable now when the flooring guy didn't level the floor and now my wood floors are on a slow boat from Sweden and won't be here until the end of January?"

I don't think you need me to answer that question...You already know who should be accountable for that, the question is if you're willing to hold them accountable and make them rip out the floor and make them do the job the right way or tell them to take that boat and the floor on it and send it back where the sun doesn't shine.

"How about when back in September the pool builder said he'd have the pool built within 6 weeks and it's still not done? He works for the builder and his excuse is he's having trouble getting subs.

Or how my roof was supposed to be finished in October but was just finished last week? Again because of subs?"

The same thing, it's all poor excuses, if you not willing to hold anyone accountable, they will be doing other jobs and keep you on the back burner because you let them get away with it.

(suzieq's story brought up many memories to me, from our own build..(actually gut remodel plus addition but whatever)

only we knew a bit more because it so happened that our relationship with our GC started as more intimate and open and it backfired too of course, at some point, but nevertheless, we knew some reasons why..for fallouts between the parties involved etc

other clients probably just got really surprized and never knew why. and was better for them too probably. some things are really appalling and pros won't share them because such things people don't often share-bad for the business and for the soul too. they'll just eat it up and take responsibility. and the customer will of course suffer too because delays, and because the mood of the project changes..there is obviously bitterness and maybe big financial loss on the side of GC, and there is yours too, both growing bitterness and money loss..and both sides now find themselves in a huge desire to bid good bye to each other but doesn't happen..since the house is not ready yet

good news: as long as both sides continue to try and pull through, this too shall pass

that was my belief I was holding onto during our story..and behold, it's true!

but when I look at our photos, mine and my husband's, I mentally divide them "before the build" and "after the build"..and believe me in "before" we both look much more advantageous..))))

I’m now at the point where I cringe with just the thought of telling my builder anything about mistakes, and I end up going through a huge internal conflict of how to approach the subject. This should not be.

EXACTLY!!!

The same thing, it's all poor excuses, if you not willing to hold anyone accountable, they will be doing other jobs and keep you on the back burner because you let them get away with it.

And how do you expect us to hold them accountable? We could claim they're in default, but then it will get tied up in the courts for months until we can settle it out and get a new builder. And there are other things we could conceivably do but again, it will put us behind the 8 ball.

And yes, we did have a construction lawyer look over our contract before starting and we're in touch with him on a regular basis.

@aprilneverends....Thank you so much for sharing that....I truly appreciate your post.....very encouraging and a good reminder to hold on. We have an extremely similar situation (relationship with builder) including the evolution to the current state of attitude and feelings on both parties.

In for a dime, in for a dollar. Over and over, twice as long and twice as much. You gotta plan for that from the get go. If you can't handle the swing, you're better off buying an existing home where you get what you get. Less uncertainty, less stress.

I always shake my head when people say they are building a custom home because they couldn't find the right house in their price range. I get the appeal of a home that is brand new with your perfect features and layout. But if you are in an existing home with a mortgage and you need to acquire the lot and get a construction loan and you need a GC and an architect and an engineer and a designer, its the most expensive and time consuming way to go. Hard to win unless its your forever home and money is no object and you can pay cash.

CPartist,

If you have a legitimate claim, concerns, or sub-standard workmanship, etc you should raise your concerns and they should be addressed. You a paying customer and you deserve to be treated fairly and with respect and your concerns shouldn't be neglected by anyone. In addition, you shouldn't be afraid to say something, in the beginning, middle or end of the job and there shouldn't be any repercussions from your builder, GC or a contractor because you said something and they should address your issues on the professional level and if they cannot do that, they shouldn't be on your property, to begin with.

@suzyq53.....For some of us it’s not so much the house itself, but the land and privacy that’s the issue. Finding acerage and privacy with a suitable home already on it is not that easy. Living on top of my neighbors is not my cup of tea. There are lots of gorgeous homes in my area, but many of them are so close together you can spit on your neighbors house. The inventory of homes available with any degree of privacy and space is very limited here.

"I’m now at the point where I cringe with just the thought of telling my builder anything about mistakes..."

This is exactly how they want you to feel. They don't want you to bring up their mistakes and they don't want to have to fix them.

@GN Builders L.L.C...I totally agree with you, but in reality, when there’s been a tremendous amount of pressure building up over the course of many months, it can be extremely difficult to deal with it. It’s wearing and draining and monotonous, and sometimes you just want to run and hide under a rock somewhere. Of course we shouldn’t be afraid to bring up concerns, but there is a reticence that builds because each time a concern is raised there is a negative response that has only gotten more negative and severe with the passage of time. We’re only human.....we get exhausted from the constant “fighting” and unfortunately find ourselves stuck in a situation from which we cannot extracate ourselves. Some of us are fairly tough, but we get worn down.

nidnay - We're going in opposite directions. From the completely private mini-estate to a high density hillside home with decks, hot tub and minimal landscape. Just didn't want the upkeep of a huge yard and pool anymore. Also so much cooler in the coastal zone. Still private enough most of the time and we don't miss the pool.

Well...seems to me the thread, like many extended threads, has wondered off the OP's specific situation (the OP may not even be in the house anymore), and wandered over to various "horror stories" encountered during building.

For the OP, there doesn't appear to me to be any contractural or ethical issues based on what you have posted. What it appears to be, IMO, is the ups and downs of custom residential construction which can, and sometimes do, happen.

For the other posters with "horror" stories, yes they can and do happen, but it's impossible to generalize about each and every story. GN Builders is exactly right: it's a business contract, with contractural obligations. If trust and respect played a role in selection and the on-going project, reasonable expectations, concerns and performance to the contracts and standards of the trade should always be open to discussion in professional manner.

Suzyq is also right: it's a stressful endeavor, and likely the most expensive one of a life time. Life is full of speed-bumps, and so is construction. We have to deal with them and the give-and-take daily. Ask Bob how I know...

I can't believe someone building a custom home would ever hesitate to speak up if something wasn't done with precision and quality. If you have difficulty standing up for yourself, take a shot of vodka if you have to and tear into whomever screwed up. Everyone working on my home knows full well if I'm not happy with something, it will be done over. I scrutinize everything.

I had the tile guy replace about 20 tiles. The cultured stone guy I made take of the entire sill ledge off and replace. The siding guy I had replace about 2 days worth of work because there were small gaps. I had concrete jack hammered out because it was a little off. I have worked my fingers to the bone my whole life for this home and demand a high level of precision. I have no problem having it out with anyone. I do spend a lot of time monitoring the work. When subs see a highly involved homeowner I think it helps the cause.

One thing that really sucks is how slow the process is. It feels like ancient Greece to me the way it all unfolds. Trying to tie together 25 different trades who are slow as hell and don't show up when they're supposed to. And whats with the 8 hour workday. These people go home at 3pm. I've never worked less than 12 hours a day, hard labor.

I have totally gone off on my GC. Couldn't believe what came out of my mouth. He's scared of me now. Not sure it helped move my project forward, but it did me a world of good. If you're going to start drinking, I recommend waiting until at least 5:00 pm. Before that I usually go for Xanax and Tums.

Sounds good to me, but re-entry would be a bad scene.

For those who care to know, we talked to our bank and they are waiving the penalty fees (this will end up saving us THOUSANDS of dollars)! Our bank had waived fees before but I was hesitant to ask again. They did ask us for a finish date (had to get a firm commitment from our builder....he said end of April.....hoping). So.....

A BIG THANK YOU to those of you who suggested we talk to our bank.

Sounds good to me, but re-entry would be a bad scene.

Re-entry has been a b*tch. And yes, I've made it a point to point out everything needing to be reworked or redone. My list grows by the week.

Yay Nidnay!

love2cavies....ha....and I am anxiously waiting to be able to post some new photos! Nothing much happening right now (they did manage to complete the task of putting the doorknobs on - although I think the actual knob style is the incorrect one....I can’t even remember what it’s supposed to look like :)