Hi Gayle,

PLEASE have a licensed electrician come and confirm before doing anything! Sophie is correct.

Having said that, and this is a guess, it looks like they're both 120, thus making a 240.

Why do you want to turn it on? What does this go to?

It's a red-flag question because you are posting the question in a home design forum asking random strangers on the internet about your circuit breaker box! ! !

Can you seriously not see how wrong that is? Do you not appreciate the value of calling an expert? You didn't even tell us where you live; you could have 120-volt or 240-volt service. One breaker is UL listed and one is CE listed, one is for 120/240 and the other may or may not be.

That's why it's a red flag. Call an electrician tomorrow. Do not listen to people here who "guess" as to what it is. Jeebuz!

If this box is in the USA, and it is a residential box, and if it is wired correctly, then the box likely has two conducting bus bars that the breakers connect to, each carrying a potential of 120 Vac relative to neutral. Because the bus bar voltages are out of phase, the potential across the bars is 240 Vac. The bars are physically interleaved in such a way that a plugged-in dual breaker connects to one of each. A dual 50 ampere breaker of this type might be typically used for a range, or double wall oven.

Normally, electrical parts in the USA are approved and marked with both UL and Canadian CE markings so they can be used in both countries.

In any case, final inspection would demand that the box interior breaker cover plate be installed so the unaware or uninformed homeowner doesn't stick his hand into the guts.

In my opinion, the red flag comments of tatts are valid. Future electricians train as journeymen under electricians for some time before they are allowed to become licensed electricians by passing tests. These tests may include understanding local codes that are more stringent than the national code.

I believe electrical engineers and electrical technicians can safely deal with residential electrical wiring and components if (and only if) they spend the considerable amount of time it takes to become well versed in the relevant parts of the National Electrical Code (NFPA 70), as well as various books describing techniques not explicitly called out in NFPA 70, or which NFPA 70 assumes is known to its audience. Others interested in this topic should become versed in electrical theory (and electrical safety) before starting to absorb the directly relevant material. In some jurisdictions, only licensed electricians are allowed to mess with residential wiring. Your Authority Having Jurisdiction has final say.

Thanks to everyone. I am asking because it is an electrician doing the work, that has done work for a friend; However, I am wondering if I am getting the same work as if I used the yellow pages. I just want to be safe. It's a touchy situation.

My apologies if I have misunderstood this forum/site.

Gayle, why are you ducking the questions? Was this not permitted? Is this guy not actually licensed?

Voltage and amperage are different things. Both need to be taken into consideration for a circuit.

What is this circuit supposed to serve? And what size wire is written on the wires?

According to the label, it can handle up to 10,000v. But that's really not the question you should be asking.

It is a 50 amp breaker. Because it is a 'double' breaker, it is used on a 240vac circuit. Hence the black and red wires (which is 'normal' for a 240vac circuit). I would guess this goes to a stove since not very many things in a home use 50 amps.

This end looks ok, at least what we can see. Speaking of safety, don't stick your finger in there. ;-)

The other question is what's going on at the other end. I would want to know that before I turned it on.

I'm not trying to duck questions. He is licensed, yes. The circuit is for a new wall oven that we have not started using yet. As weedmeister has guessed. We have been working on it for a while now. When I looked at it today, I was just thinking that they should have been 60 each to make the 120. So as I don't understand how it works, I posted it here. What is at the other end is a wall oven with the junction box stuck into the wall taped up. The cable wire was not long enough to go under the shelf as instructions recommended.

Hi Gayle,

Please understand, this is NOT "a touchy situation" just because you hired this individual from a friends recommendation.

You may indeed be getting the same "work as the yellow pages".

We also want you and your pets to be safe.

It's a 50 amp breaker. The numbers don't refer to volts. It might be a 240V, 50A breaker for the stove, but it might provide power to the water heater, the furnace or some other appliance. The breaker panel needs a cover over the wiring. Please don't mess with the switches until the electrician has covered everything. I'm assuming power is completely shut-off to the entire panel if the box is open, but I wouldn't bank money on it. Assume there is live electricity in there and keep your fingers out until the electrician has cleared everything. Talk with your electrician tomorrow. If he left the cover off and there's live electricity in there and he didn't flag it, lock the box or at least let you know about it while he's off site, please ask him politely not to do it again.

What is the model of your wall oven? A 50 amp breaker is generally too large for a wall oven. They are generally 30-40 amps. That would be a fire hazard. If a 30 amp wall oven has a problem, a 30 amp breaker will shut it off. A 50 amp would continue to supply electrical to it, and could start a fire.

You match the breaker size to the appliance’s requirements. You do not oversize breakers.

If the box/oven is not connected at the oven end, don't turn it on just yet. Let the guy finish up.

The installation manual for the oven will give the amperage for the new oven. If you need a different breaker, tell the guy or go pick one up at HD/Lowes. He can replace it in a minute.

You people need to get a grip, jeez.

Gayle, you didn't use the proper terminology. I guess that makes others that know the terminology, but little to nothing about electricity, get uppity. Don't be embarrassed, tatts comment saying one breaker is UL listed and the other CL listed is hilarious. Obviously they don't have a clue and shouldn't be answering your question. weedmeister is pointing you in the right direction.

Here's my best shot at answering your question. I'm being very simplistic though, I'm not being exact. This is just a very simple explanation in the least amount of words.

EDIT - wow, this post got long. Be sure to read the last part of this post.

First, let me say I assume you live in the US, the below pertains to the USA only.

That breaker is 120 volts x 2, total of 240 volts. One leg (wire) is 120v and the other leg is 120v.

The electricity coming into your home is a total of 240 volts. The cable coming into your home, connecting to the meter outside and then the main electrical panel inside contains 4 wires:

1) 120v wire

2) 120v wire

3) Neutral wire

4) Ground wire

Your main electrical panel has a long buss that runs top to bottom, that's what the breakers attach to. The panel has a main breaker - one big breaker that shuts off all the power. One 120v wire connects to one side of that breaker, which powers the left side of the buss, the other 120v wire connects to the the other side of the main breaker, which powers the right side of the buss. The neutral and ground wires connect to other areas in the mail panel. I won't go into that.

The buss is configured to alternate each leg. Put a single switch breaker in the top slot, that single breaker gets 120v from the left 120v wire coming from the meter. Put a single breaker in the next slot under that, it gets 120v from the right 120v wire. It continues that way for the length of the buss. Doesn't matter if you're putting breaker on the left side or right side of the buss (panel). Everything is 120 volts, it alternates left 120v wire, right 120v wire from top to bottom. Which side of the buss (panel) doesn't matter.

Now, that said, onto the next thing, Plug a double breaker in the panel, it's now getting 120v from the left wire, and 120v from the right wire, so two legs (wires) of 120v. This is for something that needs 240v of power. The switches are tied together so if one 120v wire has a problem that requires the breaker to trip, it'll also trip out the other 120v power source so all power is cut.

That's the end of the volts part. You should now understand that it's all 120v, or 240v if running two 120v wires to something. But not really 240v because one wire isn't supplying 120v, it's really 120v x 2. But it's 240v. Never mind, just humoring myself.

Now onto the important stuff, and probably the reason you're asking the question.

AMPS. It isn't volts that kill you, it's amps. Not gonna fully explain it, I'm keeping it simple, so I'll say this. A regular outlet is 15 amps (120v, so one 'hot' leg, the other leg is called 'common'), powered by a 15 amp breaker. 20 amps is more common for a fridge or a microwave, but still a standard outlet with one 120v wire. When you get to 30 amps, there are very few things that are 30 amps and only 120v. Normally 30 amp and up are 240v.

As the amperage goes up, wire size needs to go up to carry the increased amps. Not volts, amps. It's all still 120v, or 2 x 120v. A 15 amp circuit uses 14 gauge wire (usually white). A 20 amp circuit uses a 12 gauge wire (usually yellow). A 30 amp circuit uses a 10 gauge wire (usually orange). These are the minimums. You can use 10 gauge wire on a 15 amp circuit. But you better not use a 14 gauge wire on a 30 amp circuit, the wire will get too hot trying to carry 30 amps of juice.

Now to your question. That breaker is a 240 volt, 50 amp breaker. It's allowing a lot of amps to flow. . Unless you have a kick butt stove, it's not common for a 50a breaker to power an appliance.

15/20 amp single pole - standard 120v outlets and lights.

15/20 amp double pole - 240v baseboard heaters, maybe a lightweight appliance but not common.

30 amp double pole - 240v electric hot water heater

40 amp double pole - electric stove

50 amp double pole - a high power 240v electric stove or other high power appliance OR a sub panel that other things are connected to exactly like the main panel I described above.

MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS COMMENT!!! - WIRE SIZE!!!! You MUST use the proper wire size for the size of the breaker!!!!! A 50 amp breaker must use an 8 gauge wire, and that's the minimum size/thickness. I use 6 gauge just to be on the safe side. Judging by the pic you posted, that wire doesn't look like it's 8 gauge, it looks like it's 10 gauge at best (30 amp). Obviously I'm not there to see it, so I could be wrong. Look at the shielding on the wire (not on the wires at the breaker). It'll say what the wire size is. If it isn't at least 8 gauge, the breaker is too big for the wire.

There were more posts while I was typing, looks like the smarter guys showed up.

Don't confuse volts with amps, and if something needs 60 amps, a 30 amp double pole breaker doesn't give you 30 + 30 = 60 amps total. It's still 30 amps, just 120v @ 30a + 120v @ 30a.

Check your owners manual, if it truly needs 50 amps (not unheard of, but not common....must be a kick butt stove), then 50 amps it is. Just be sure he ran at least 8 gauge COPPER wire to it. Not aluminum, copper. If he used a thicker gauge aluminum wire, fire him. Use copper wire only, no less than 8 gauge for 50 amps.

Okay here is the model # KOCE500EBS05. Where would I find the wire if it's in the wall behind the oven already? Other than what's visible in the panel. Yes that panel is active and running my kitchen outlets, lights and living room outlets. Each appliance is supposed to have it's own breaker. So I don't think anything else is on that besides the oven.

That oven uses 40 amps. You have an issue. Enough of one that you need to have someone knowledgeable inspect this. BTW, Why isn’t your municipality inspecting this?

The wire to your oven will likely go up the wall and across above the ceiling, but there will be lots of other wires there too. If you can follow the wires to the wall above the oven, and assuming that is the correct breaker for the oven, then you might be able to get an ID off the wire insulation. If you don't know much about it, it might be best to call another electrician to check things over if you have concerns. If a permit was pulled with the city, an inspector will be out to sign off on it and will demand changes if things aren't right. You can pull the wires and check the diameter with a gauge for size, but you're not likely to do that, so ask your electrician. Some appliances can be on shared circuits. Others like dishwashers, have to be on their own circuit.

That oven DOES NOT use 40 amps.

"I guess that makes others that know the terminology, but little to nothing about electricity, get uppity" - and their answers would be laughable if this weren't such a serious issue - that they should stay out of.

8000÷240=33.3333

It is an 8Kw appliance, or 33 amps. 150%× 33.33=49.9999

33× 125% MINIMUM [NEC 422.10(A)]= 41.66666 The only reason the breaker COULD be 40 amps is due to an exception.

NEC 422.11(E)(3)

Where 150 percent of the appliance rating does not correspond to a standard overcurrent protection device ampere rating, the next higher standard rating shall be permitted. (50 amps)

.

Wire size is separate issue...

210.19(A)(3) Household Ranges and Cooking Appliances Branch-circuit conductors supplying household ranges, wall-mounted ovens, counter-mounted cooking units, and other household cooking appliances shall have an ampacity not less than the rating of the branch circuit and not less than the maximum load to be served. For ranges of 8 3/4 kW or more rating, the minimum branch-circuit rating shall be 40 amperes.

If anybody is trying to reconcile the math in the last sentence and my calculations, the discrepancy is that the appliance manufacturer, and this part of the code used 250V instead of the more common 240V. (8Kw vs 8¾Kw)... it would follow that the same exception that applies to a 8¾Kw range would also apply to the next smaller size, except that it already does using 250V, so it did not need including.

You think you know, but what you actually know is just enough to be dangerous - as they say...

http://www.kitchenaid.com/digitalassets/KOCE500EBS/Installation%20Instruction_EN.pdf

The "40" refers to the MINIMUM breaker size, NOT how many amps the oven uses. You do NOT "match the breaker size to the appliance’s requirements." You DO oversize breakers by 125% - 150%

So even when someone shows you that you are wrong, you won’t admit it? LOL!

Sophie Wheeler

"So even when someone shows you that you are wrong, you won’t admit it? LOL!"

WOW!!! Do you think that "Specs" list you posted is what an electrician uses to size branch circuits??? REALLY??

Did you even bother reading my last comment? Keep in mind that I have had MY electrician's licence for 27 years....How long have you had yours?

Apparently you are sooooo clueless you don't even get it....even when it is explained to you in baby steps.

Who do you think imnotritenow was referring to? "... others that know the terminology, but little to nothing about electricity, get uppity"

There is absolutely nothing in the installation instructions indicating a MAXIMUM overcurrent protection size. This is a resistive load - it is not protecting a large motor.

YES, most cooking appliances can be fed from a 50 amp circuit even if they only draws 32 amps. All other code permitted alternatives are the minimum, cheapest, most likely to overheat the wires on a resistive load mentality.

Gayle P:

Breakers are sized for amperage, not voltage.

As explained by ImNotRiteNow up above, U.S. residential power is normally supplied at two "legs" of 120 volts each. A 120 volt wall outlet (hair dryer, toaster, television, phone charger, desk lamp, washing machine, etc.) or lighting circuit uses one of the legs.

A 240 volt circuit for a major appliance that needs more power (electric range or oven, water heater, central air conditioning/heating, etc.) uses the two legs together for 240 volts (each leg has a breaker, thus there are two for the circuit). 120 volts + 120 volts adds together for 240v on the circuit but the amperages of the two breakers do not add together. Two 50 amp breakers on a 240v circuit makes it a 50-amp circuit, not a 100-amp circuit.

Hair dryers and light bulbs and televisions and ovens and ranges are rated for voltage required (120v or 240v), how much maximum amperage draw while operating, and how much wattage consumed while operating. Wattage is what the electric company measures for calculating your bill -- in KWH or kWh units (kilowatt hour, which is 1,000 watts used for 1 hour of time). A 100-watt light bulb turned on for 1 hour uses 0.1 kWh of power (100 / 1000).

Wattage is amperage x voltage.

Getting back to your KA wall oven ... the installation instructions for the oven state:

• Models rated from 7.3 to 9.6 kW at 240 volts (5.4 to 7.4 kW at
  208 volts) require a separate 40-amp circuit. Models rated at
  4.8 kW and below at 240 volts (3.6 kW and below at
  208 volts) require a separate 30-amp circuit.

The chart cited by Fred S, also from the installation instructions, indicates the model of question is rated 8,000 watts (8.0 kW) at 240 volts, so that puts it on a 40-amp circuit per KA's instructions (7.3 kW to 9.6 kW).

National Code 210.19 that Fred S cited advises that the minimum rating (meaning the circuit must be at least that much but can be higher) of the circuit to carry a range/oven of 8.75 kW or higher is 40-amps.

A 50-amp circuit is at least 40-amps.

A 40-amp circuit can carry a maximum 9,600 watts (40a X 240v) but code for safety
reasons typically restricts a circuit to carrying 80% of the maximum.
8.0 kW is 83.333% of a 40-amp circuit.

A 50-amp circuit is 12,000 watts (12.0 kW) and 8.0 kW is 60.666%.

The question, I suppose, is whether 83.333% of a 40-amp circuit is within reasonable parameters for safety purposes (to protect the circuit and have the breakers trip from overload if the oven shorts-out), and also can feed power to the oven without incurring nuisance trips. Or is a 50-amp circuit OK, since it can carry at least the load of the oven?

Breakers that are too large for the connected appliance won't trip if the appliance shorts-out. Power continues to flow and the appliance or the wiring in the wall/attic for the circuit may overheat and catch fire.

KA's instructions indicate they want a 40-amp circuit (even for ranges/ovens up to 9.6 kW) ... but maybe your licensed electrician thinks 50-amp is OK?

(Another factor is that an oven or range doesn't always pull the maximum wattage/amperage ALL the time that it's operating. How much power it pulls depends on how many heating elements are operating at any given time ... ALL the surface burners of a range plus the oven), or just one or two surface units. ALL the heating elements of a double wall oven, or not.)

[The size of the wire on the circuit also comes into play. The wire must be hefty enough (not too small but larger is OK) to carry the rated amperage of the circuit without overheating. For example, a circuit designed for a 30-amp load (with 30-amp breakers) is typically constructed with particular size wire. One can't simply change the breakers to 50-amp to safely increase the load the circuit can carry because a 50-amp circuit should have larger/heftier wire to carry the higher power draw. On the converse, a 50-amp circuit could be changed to smaller 30-amp breakers to safely protect a smaller-capacity appliance because the larger wire can safely carry a reduced load.]

In any case, don't turn the breakers on until installation of the wall oven is finished.

"(to protect the circuit and have the breakers trip from OVERLOAD if the oven SHORTS-out)" - Overloads and shorts are 2 separate things.

"Breakers that are too large for the connected appliance won't trip if the appliance shorts-out." - If an appliance has a short circuit, that means that the current is bypassing the resistors that keep the amperage in check, either line to line, line to neutral, or line to ground. Therefore, the amperage will get quite high and trip any 50 amp breaker. That is the reason for the Max RMS Amps of 10,000, which is taken care of by the instantaneous trip portion of the breaker.

On the other hand, even an undersized 30 amp breaker will not protect the small wires within the oven that are only designed to carry the 2 unbalanced amps for the clock and control circuits etc from overload overheating and damage if the oven malfunctions. (The inverse time portion of the circuit breaker)

A 32 amp appliance had better have leads with ampacity greater than 20 amps, and suficient for the load served.

All of you have to get a grip.

Gayle, it's a 50 amp / 240 volt breaker - used for an electric oven or hot water heater. The breaker is off. All I say is why? I would contact the installer and ask him why.

There are a lot of people here who have nothing to do except to try to exert their authority or 'alleged' knowledge. It manifests itself through fear and uncertainty.

OMG just hire a licensed electrician, pull a permit (which is required by law) and get this done right. No one wants to pay any more than they have to but, then again, no one wants to burn up or cause others to burn up in a house fire! Stop trying to beat the system to save some money and just do it right!!!! And, don't get mad when people question you, confront you ( you started this - you asked the question) or give advice that you don't want. It is what it is. DO IT RIGHT!!!

Gayle P

The question not asked here is what size panel do you have coming into the house. If your panel is not big enough, you can't put in 'additional' 50 amps. We once bought a house that had a 200A panel installed but only had 150A coming into the house. No one noticed this under the house inspection. (don't ask how that happened by the prior owner!) We had to pay money to correct that. My situation is the kind of thing that can happen if you hire a "friend" and not pull the permit!

We have done ALOT of work on the house over the years. I have yet to have anyone inspect the appliance installation.

Electric panel installation, YES

Appliance installation, NO.

A good rule of thumb when pricing out
electrician work is $1000 for a main panel/box and $100 for each installed
plug/switch/light fixture/etc....somewhere in that area.

Gayle, if you're taking a short cut and concerned about speaking up as this is a friends recommendation, please reconsider.

Ignore all the name calling from some of the blowhards in this thread, this is your home we're discussing.

Do you have a permit?

"If your panel is not big enough, you can't put in 'additional' 50 amps" - load calculations for the panel size are not done that way. You do not add up the numbers on the breakers to see what size panel you need. Even if they are changing from a standard range to a wall oven and cooktop, it will probably only add 8 amps to the load calculation.

"We once bought a house that had a 200A panel installed but only had 150A coming into the house." - There are so many things wrong with this statement, and what it implies, that I don't even know where to start. So, I will just chalk it up to another person that does not know the terminology, but little to nothing about electricity.... but eager to get on the bandwagon raising baseless red flags trying to panic this woman.

While we are making baseless statements, you had better get YOUR electrical system rechecked too because I have seen where the electrician who checked the other electrician still miss things too... along with the inspector ;)

The sky is not falling.

Hi All, JUst came home from work and tried to get caught up best I could.

Bottom Line: We tore our old kitchen off 8 yrs. ago as it was sitting on grade. Pulled a permit, framed a new one and a second floor. Had all the rough signed off in 2011, then ran out of money. Have done small things over the years, but bought appliances back in July and are just now getting them hooked up. The electrician we are using does work for a Co. that my boyfriend subs for. He is a master electrician; however, he has not pulled a permit and we have talked about the Arc Faults, as they are also a code here. He has told me that he doesn't like the Arcs and to just do the $2.00 ones. We told him to do it to code, but he said that they trip for no reason and if my fridge tripped and I lost all my food-oh well. He would be protected by the inspector, But he did not reverse that and say if he didn't get the permit and I had a fire he would be liable. My boyfriend has had to fix a few things that he has done, leaving me to believe that we are not getting work as someone from the street. When he came to install the oven, the wire was not long enough to go under the shelf, so he just tore the sheetrock away and placed the box into the insulation and taped it up with Gorilla tape. So that is when I started to get nervous. I have been doing this go round with my boyfriend since, and it is keeping me up at night. The reason the breaker is still off is because the kitchen is not complete yet. But that is the finished product the electrician is going to leave.

I have called Kitchenaide, and they had no help for me. I called the appliance store I bought them from and he told me it was only 2500W. I don't think that is right. So I have lost sleep over this and have told my boyfriend that I am not going to use the oven until I feel safe. A fire is my worse fear. I came on hear to try and understand it better for myself.

I don't know how much trouble I will get in if I call the inspector now after the electrician has already started his work. Plus, He is the one that is supposed to pull the permit ( I think ) and he didn't. So I'm in a mess with a kitchen I have waited 6 yrs. for and am afraid to use. What a mess!

Regarding permit: in my state, the homeowner is responsible.

He is correct re Arc faults.

I think you are over reacting.

You are probably right Jim. But I am a prevention kinda person rather than fix it later. i don't always like it.

This thread has gotten a bit TMI with all the tech talk. I'll give you my last 2 cents and let it go (maybe). :)

All the suggestions about getting a good electrician.....agree

All the suggestions about getting a permit so it's inspected....agree.

Bottom line is you want to be absolutely sure it's done correctly and is safe, no matter who does it. You want piece of mind. 100% agree.

I don't understand what you're saying about what was done when the wire was too short. If you're saying he put a box in the wall and connected another piece of wire to that to reach the oven, that's against code. You cannot terminate wires inside a wall, therefore making then inaccessible. Even if put on a box, connected securely, all rules followed, you simply cannot have a connection 'covered' inside a wall. It must be accessible.

I would never have a >30 amp circuit broken. I run one unbroken wire from the appliance to the panel (called a home run). It's common to run 120v, 15a and 20a circuits with breaks....each outlet/light/switch is a break....but the breaks are accessible inside the box the outlet/light/switch is in. With the exception of 240v, 20a electric baseboard heat, when running 240v circuits at any amperage, all of mine are home runs. I do home runs on a refrigerator outlet and a microwave outlet too, but that's just me.

Here's my suggestion. If I was wiring your oven, and the length of wire needed for a home run is less than 150', I'd buy a roll of 6/3 wire (6 gauge, 3 wires plus ground, so 4 wires total) and run it from the panel to the oven. With 6/3 wire you're covered no matter if the necessary amperage is 30a or 40a or 50a. If done that way you can rest assured it's safe, as long as it's done correctly.

Cut drywall if you have to, don't screw around trying to save yourself the time to replace it, it's not worth it.

This thread has gotten a bit TMI

Then he proceeds to write a book, even cutting drywall. Amazing, just amazing.

geoffrey_b: I'm sure most here would wish that you were not forced to read our prolix attempts to be helpful. If you know and can report your location, I'm sure a local reader will volunteer to contact the proper authorities to release you from the lexical oppression you are evidently enduring.

Hi Gayle,

I'm so sorry, this was supposed to be something happy & exciting for you, you've waited a long time.

Having said that, you're clearly stressed, anxious and concerned, to the point it's affecting your relationship, you need peace of mind...

Quietly and confidently tell your boyfriend that you're done living like this, you're not looking for blame, fault or otherwise, but you've chosen to go in a different direction in regard to the electrician that was hired.

Call your city inspector, don't worry about "how much trouble" you may or may not be in. If the electrician is doing quality work with integrity, he should not care one bit that you've chosen to this path. You may be happily surprised!

Took a break yesterday as it was a long day. We contacted another electrician and he is supposed to come tomorrow. I would feel safer for sure if the inspector just comes, so I am going to bring that up again to my boyfriend.

When the oven was wired, the wire attached to the back of the unit was not long enough to go under the shelf it sat on, so the wall directly behind the oven was cut away. Then the wires from the back of the oven and the basement were put into the box, stuffed into the insulation within the wall behind the oven and taped with black Gorilla Tape. Rather this is right or not, I was told nothing he could do as it was a defect is manufacturing.

If all this is fine and the double 50 amp breaker is good for that oven, then my concern becomes the wire gauge? That wire was run back in 2010, so maybe back then the wall ovens called for a lesser gauge? I tried to get some photos of the wire, but not very good.

Is my only issue now that I may have to change that wire from a 10 to an 8 gauge? I assume that would be an easy task?

I really appreciate everyone's input as this is a huge learning experience for me.

For an electrician! yeah they run wires all the time? :-) glad it's looking on the up and up for you now I want to go check my breaker box and wire gauges lol

Stuffing a box into a wall and covering the hole with flexible tape might stretch-qualify as accessible, if not qualify as presentable, but fails the test of allowing inspection by the Code Enforcement Officer during the intermediate (open-box) inspection you would have if you had pulled a license.

I believe the oven to the wall box cable length is determined by the factory based on UL or NEC standards, and it isn't a defect. (It may be an annoyance.) These cables are supposed to be hard wired into a wall box that should be presentably mounted on or within the wall surface.

Appropriate wire gauge for a given circuit depends on current draw, conductor length, insulation type, and density of conductors that may travel together. Breakers are not allowed to exceed certain current limits depending on the wire gauge. Generally, one would want AWG6 conductors in a 50A circuit. (Motor circuits have special rules.)

However, if this particular breaker is temporary, then AWG8 or AWG10 conductors may be suitable for the circuit, depending on the load and line length. In that case, temporarily using a breaker that is too large for the ampacity of the conductors is a bad practice.

"inspection by the Code Enforcement Officer during the intermediate (open-box) inspection you would have if you had pulled a license." -- never heard of an intermediate inspection -- there is a rough-in inspection that was done 7 years ago... then the permit expired. -- under normal circumstances, there would not be another inspection until the "final". The inspector does not stand over the electrician's shoulder while installing the oven.... but, if you want to pay the inspector $200 for an extra trip, and the electrician for an entire day's wages while he waits for the inspector to show up,... I suspect you will run out of money again real soon.

The "short" flexible conduit is common. It is why I insist that the cabinet installer (generally hired by the KD/cabinet/appliance provider) install the oven before I hook it up. The problem is that a 23.25" deep oven stuck into a 24" deep cabinet with a 3/4" back panel does not fit with a 7/8" conduit running down the back. The conduit must go over and around, making it short, unless the cabinet installer cuts out the back of the cabinet to make it fit.

The Gorilla tape was an attempt to do you a favor and repair the integrity of the moisture/air barrier of the outside wall... instead of leaving while you called back the cabinet installer, insulators, drywallers, and tapers to make something look "presentable" that will never be seen again,... and then come back for another trip to finish with another bill. The tape has nothing to do with the integrity of the electrical work itself, and I bet the insulators would just tape it up too. This is why you hire a GC, so that everything gets done in the correct order.

"Is my only issue now that I may have to change that wire from a 10 to an 8 gauge?" - No, if you are going to second guess the electrician, you need to;

know the temperature rating of the wire,

the type of wire such as THHN,

the temperature rating of the terminals that the wire is connected to,

how many, and what size wires are in the conduit so that you can de-rate their ampacity,

the cross-sectional area of the conductors and conduit,

the length of the wire to check for impedance,

the number and size of wires entering the junction box so that you can determine the minimum junction box volume,

how far from the junction box the cable or conduit is secured,

whether there is proper wire bending space,...

and any quirks the inspector may have after being called out for a normally unnecessary extra inspection that he will be determined to find something to make the trip worthwhile.... just to name a few.

WoW - these folks have this much free time - must be retired.

Silly question..I am in the UK ..what does pull a permit mean ??

re Permit; in my state, a homeowner is responsible for obtaining a permit (permission) from the city government. As part of the permit process, the plans will be approved, the work inspected as required, insuring building codes are followed.

Permit fees are treated as self contributing, the cost of the permit pays all or part of the cost of processing the permit.

The permit process is for safety, protection of investment; administered by the local government/municipality.

Fred S: By intermediate, I meant the rough-in inspection between pulling the license and final inspection; in other words, intermediate to the process. Mea culpa.

Jim Mat Ok thanks ...not something we do here ... you need Planning permission for some kinds of building work ...never had to get anything for work I have had done

If it were me, I'd take the panel off the back of the oven where the power wires are and remove the factory wires. Then run 6 gauge wire from main panel in the basement to the oven. No breaks in the line, home run from panel to oven. If you want the wire closest to the oven to be armored, buy a couple feet of flexible armor from an electrical supply store and fish the 6 gauge wire through it. This is the safest, most secure way to wire it and there will be no issues with code. If inspected it will pass with no problem.

If your wire is truly 10 gauge, that's not, and never was, the proper size wire for anything requiring more than 30 amps. 10 gauge wire is for 30 amp circuit. 8 gauge wire is for a 40 amp circuit. 6 gauge for a 50 amp circuit.

I'm suggesting you use 6 gauge because it's not that much more than 8 gauge, and it will handle the amperage the oven requires whether it's 40a or 50a.

I have a feeling the oven people wouldn't be too thrilled with things being opened and removed and replaced.

"This is the safest, most secure way to wire it and there will be no issues with code. If inspected it will pass with no problem." TOTAL BS - there are varying capacities (amperage) for the same wire gauge, largely dictated by the insulation type. If you try to put a 90°C (194°F) wire made for standard house wiring directly into the back of a 500°F oven,... you may be a Redneck.

Not to mention that the code says the oven must be installed according to it's "Listing and Labeling" ... which includes the pigtail.

The usual Listing requirements for a wall oven are;

Fred S is correct. My Wolf double ovens use higher temperature higher gauge conductors than the THHN widely used for house wiring. This necessitated investigation of the temperature ratings of candidate connection/disconnection means. (I don't like wire nuts at the 6AWG level, although they do meet the temperature requirement. Commonly available NEMA plugs and receptacles do not meet the temperature requirement.)

I used a type of insulated screw block that allows disconnection and reconnection without conductor damage. I also spaced the cabinets out and recessed the box to provide room behind the ovens for the flexible conduit. Higher temperature wire ratings can also be an issue with induction cooktops, so plan accordingly.