The gritty mix and then next the 5.1.1 mix..

Gritty is 1 part surface, one part crushed granite, and one part fine bark.

5.1.1 is 1 part bark, 5 parts bark, 1 part perlite, and one part peat

Mike

I have quite a few plants that are 20+yrs old in some variation of very well draining mixes. Basically because of my interest in bonsai where I have seen 100+ years trees in containers and heard about even older ones. Back in those days I did not know the names 511 or gritty mix. I think Al started those threads later and I only joined GW early 2010 or may be a bit later. The oldest probably is seed grown mango, or Ficus religiosa or Ficus benghalensis.

Please state how long it has been in that mix.

The plants I mentioned are say 22-23 yrs, I think. The gritty I used had haydite instead of chicken grit. 511 was pumice instead of perlite. I used to use MG type mixes for annuals but after learning about 511 I happily switched to that. I used to dislike perlite but I now I have adopted it because for a lot of my plants since it is a lot cheaper.

EDIT: updated in a later post to correct my mistake.

I have at least one tree that has been container grown for at least 25 years. However, NO container soil holds up that long without refreshing and I have repotted, root pruned and replaced the soil (5-1-1) numerous times during that 25 year period.

I have still have a blueberry from 1994 that was planted in 1/2 "Frank's Nursery" container mix and 1/2 peat. My "Miss Kim" lilac was also planted in that Frank's container mix since 1998. Since Frank's went out of business in the early 2000s, I have mostly used Promix (once I found a local source) and my various shrubs and perennials that I still have going back from between 15 years to present are in some variation of Promix (mixed with various things depending on the plant).

At this point, 3 of my 4 FW citrus were put in a sortof "3:2:1" Promix/reptibark/perlite mix last year when I got them. My newer ones bought this year were put in 5:1:1 (where I used Promix instead of peat for the "1") to see how they go.

I've been on GW since the "Spike Hernandez" (original owner) days in 1999 (and then waited until the final forum software conversion in late 2001 to move to the "new" version and accounts just before the end of 2001)... and being active on the Container forum back then (and helping to start the Balcony Forum), I recall when that 5:1:1 discussion started and was debated and passionately argued and whatnot (which continues to this day).

I really think people are going to have to just try stuff and determine what their natural tendency for plant care is, factoring in their environment/climate/micro-climates, and the type of plant, to see what seems to work best for them. If plants continually "fail" in one mix, try another and you might find your sweet spot for success!

Oops. Missed the point. I have also changed the soil many times. It has not been in the same original mix for 22 yrs I mentioned. All my plants go through root pruning and/or bare rooting after every few years. The longest in that sense is still mango and it has been in 511 for 5 yrs now and it desperately needs full repot.

Split Leaf philodendron been in same container 40+ years. We been in this building 32 years (since 1985) and it came here from old headquarters. Never been repotted, never ever been removed from the original container. The plant is watered only with ice cubes out of employees lunch time beverages when they are done. No idea what the soil mix is, just some bagged commercial mix sold way back then. The plant is healthy looking, dark green shinny leaves. The growth of the plant never gets larger or smaller, (4 x 4-ft,) and flushes new growth couple times a year.

I meant this to be about citrus trees. After all, this is the Citrus Forum.

Doesn't really make any difference as to the type of tree.....or even houseplant. Citrus, Japanese maple, bonsai, mango or philodendron - all will need routine repotting, root pruning and soil replacement if they are to be grown in containers long term.

Of course to keep a plant healthy, one needs to repot periodically. In my posting this, I did not mean to imply trees that have been grown in a pot without being repotted or whose mix has not been changed.

I use a 4:1 mix of coconut husk chips and either ground coconut coir or peat moss. Never had a root rot problem. Along about the third/fourth year I repot the tree with new mix and, if necessary, a bit of root trimming.

Mike, I know what exactly what you mean but I trust that the vast, vast majority of people here will give an honest answer.

Vlad: Amongst citrus Thai/kaffir lime then would be the longest I had - 8 yrs grown from seed in 511-ish mix.

I received two trees from FW in 2002 and planted them in Miracle Grow potting mix upon arrival and I didn't know it was supposedly bad for citrus. They have been in the same 14" pots and same soil since then. Little did I know that the planting medium should have been refreshed until I joined citrus FB groups and this forum. Anyway, I plan on refreshing the soil in the spring of 2018. I would do it sooner, but the two trees have fruit on them. Since I have been fertilizing monthly with Foliage Pro, Osmocote Plus, and rotating with other brands of organic fertilizers, my trees performed very well this year.

I have to admit that from my experience with my two trees, I do not see what the big deal is with refreshing the soil every year or so because mine have been in the same stuff for 15 years. Never been root pruned either. Trees in the ground do not have their soil refreshed, they just need quarterly citrus fertilizer. After all the reading that Miracle Grow is bad and turns to muck after a certain length of time, I am curious as to what the roots and soil look like at the bottom of the pot. My trees are nice and green, blooming and putting out fruit. Go figure.

Vladimir. to satisfy your request that the information should be about citrus trees, the longest citrus tree that i have in a container is a Black Twig Lime that I received as a bud stick from Joe Real (from the old GW forum) approximately 10 years ago. it is growing in MG garden soil and perlite. Anyway, the philodendron has been in the same pot for 40 years, whether Mike believes it or not. It does produce what might be called air roots growing out and all around the container. The office girl fertilizes it every couple months or so. So there you go Mike.

Silica, what about your citrus trees?

"Trees in the ground do not have their soil refreshed, they just need quarterly citrus fertilizer."

You cannot make a valid comparison between container grown plants and trees in the ground. The two situations are just so completely different that you are attempting to compare elephants and whales!!

Plants can grow in MG soil......many folks use it for whatever reason........but you will see a marked difference in size and health and productivity of your plants if you opt for a better mix. Side by side comparisons of the same plants growing in MG soil and in a 5-1-1 or gritty mix and receiving the same fertilization program will make that abundantly clear! So while you may think your plants are doing just fine, you likely do not realize how much better they could be doing :-))

And while this is straying far off of Vlad's topic, one should be careful when using an organic fertilizer in a container setting. Unless a liquid or a fully water soluble product, they are pretty much ineffective and a waste of time and effort.

Vladimir, what does your sentence - "Silica, what about your citrus trees?" mean? I wrote about the 10 year old Black Twig Lime tree.

I know nothing about that lime tree. Can you tell me about it?

Gardengal I respectfully disagree with you regarding organic fertilizers being ineffective. I have been using the Jobes Citrus and Fruit Tree fertilizer every month during this years growing season. After about 2 weeks of each application, my trees put out flushes of new growth. I have Foliage Pro too, but didn't use it very often because I was using the Jobes. Osmocote Plus was used as well for the trace minerals. I used the Jobes because we had a lot of rain early on in the growing season. To add more liquid fertilizer plus the rain in my trees, I was afraid of having too much moisture and killing my trees. The Jobes and rain working the fertilizer down to the roots worked great for me.

My citrus growing routine works just fine for me for the past 15 years so why change now. lol.

Do you know how dry or granular organic fertilizers work? And why they are seldom effective in any kind of container situation? And while you may empirically deduce that the activity of the Jobes resulted in new flushes of growth, it is far more likely that was just a spontaenous effort on the part of the tree and not associated with the Jobes fertilizer as I can assure you that very little, if any, of that product is being absorbed by the plant.

We change because we learn better and more scientifically based methods :-) It is a pretty uninvolved gardener who holds on to old, disproven methodology just because "they have always done it that way".

Vladimir, 10 or so years ago I was VERY VERY VERY fortunate indeed to get a budwood stick of a Black Twig lime tree from Mr. Real, a friend of mine for years. He is connected with UCR. I had searched and searched for this extremely rare variety for some time, and it was only through his efforts I received the budwood. You can find just very little information on the Internet about the Black Twig lime cultivar. I know of no place, nor have I ever found a source where it can be purchased.

I can add that MG mixes are not the same in all areas. The product and formulation is based on profit margins more than their effectiveness. Different climates will also determine how badly that mix will affect citrus trees. I agree that tree's left in collapsed old soil just won't do well and are likely on a long downhill course without root management.

Silica. Please remove my name from your post. I would really appreciate that. Thank you. Have a nice day

"We change because we learn better and more scientifically based methods
:-) It is a pretty uninvolved gardener who holds on to old, disproven
methodology just because "they have always done it that way".

Grdengal this is not very nice to say. If you think you need to lecture here in looking down to others, then have the decency to explain your claims so we can all learn. Why does an organic granular NOT work?

And Silica, your example with the philodedron really does not fit in this discussion what soever. As you know its growth habit is soo very different from citrus. It does not really need a lot of soil to grow because the air roots.

I think we all can do better that that in discussions. No name callings and be more respectul. And as somebody else said, "If you have nothing nice to say, keep quiet."

Vladimir I had all my Citrus in a ready mix soil for containers from a garden center but only had them in for for years. This was very light mix and PH of 7. If it got dry, wind would bow the trees down. After I repotted all my trees this year, I noticed that the roots stayed in the first half of the container and not all the way down. Not sure if that could be contributed to the soil mix?

I had my two oldest citrus in a mixture of potting soil (MG) and perlite for maybe 4 years before switching them over to 5-1-1. It is hard for me to judge because while they were in the denser mix, I also had no idea what I was doing and barely fertilized them, etc. They are doing great now in 5-1-1, but my care regimen is much better. All that said, they have grown to multiples of the size they started out. A general statement: I have learned all I know about plant care from many of you here and am very very grateful for all the help I’ve received. I know some of you butt heads sometimes (I’ve been guilty of that myself), but I hope we can go forward with a good attitude so we can all continue to grow.

Susanne, I'm sorry if you found my remarks blunt or impolite. However, after years on these forums I have grown very tired of posters who blindly adhere to old methodology simply because it is something they have always done. Where is the logic in that?? Why wouldn't an eager and enthusiastic gardener be open to new ideas and potentially better methods?? Isn't that why they are posting here to begin with? Even after gardening my entire lifetime I continue to research and learn new things.......the knowledge available to us is virtually endless.

All gardening is based on science so the more you know, the greater your success will be. And isn't that what all gardeners want?

All plants access necessary nutrients from the soil in the form of soluble salts and only in that form. All synthetic fertilizers - like FoliagePro or Osmocote or even Miracle Gro - present nutrients in that form. Dry or granular organic fertilizers do not. Their nutrients are presented in a form that requires the activity of soil biology to convert them into a plant accessible form (the soluble salts) via a process termed mineralization. In a container setting, mineralization does not occur or occurs so sporadically or ineffectually because there is insufficient soil biology to accomplish the process. And that's because there is no real 'soil' or other readily decomposible organic matter in a potting soil to support the huge populations of soil organisms necessary to provide this conversion. So you can apply all the dry organics you want but virtually none of it will be adequately mineralized and therefore most is just wasted.

This is one of the primary tenets behind the difference between container gardening and inground gardening and why it is very difficult to grow 100% organically in a container situation. There are a few fully water soluble or liquid organic fertilizers on the market and more are being developed all the time. But while they may have already shortcut that mineralization process for the basic stuff (NPK), most still fall far short of offering soluble solutions for the micros or trace nutrients that are just as necessary for healthy plant growth.

Organic fertilizers are just not a great choice for containers. Not if one wants to maximize plant health and production.

Those processes mentioned above are facilitated by microbes which are very unreliable in small containers. They are either blooming or having mass die offs much like a compost mound might except on a much smaller scale. So many external factors would determine their livelihood and activity.

Susanne, a heck of a lot of people that use to be here either left because a few here are very unappreciative, when the same ones pick on the same ones, or when there is such a lack of loyalty that many will 'like' something someone has said even if it were to be passive aggressive towards another or they knew it bothered another. That is a shame...It is what it is. We just try not to let this make the rest of us run away or stop participating...

My intent here is to help others to find joy in growing their trees and to be successful wit it. It is hoped that everyone else is here to do the same, I I feel most are even though they may have differing opinions.))

Mike

I can understand being tired of explaining something over and over to folks who are new to a particular subject. If you are tired of explaining, then stop, let somebody else do it. If I sense some sort of negative attitude about something I want to discuss because I don't know enough about it, I will take my questions elsewhere and have a learning discussion about it because I am sure others will benefit.

I have learned much about citrus online and I don't always agree with somebody's methods of citrus care. What works for one, may not work for somebody else. That's ok, and a lively discussion is good as long as it's done with respect and courtesy.

Denise - don't get me wrong. I am happy to explain over and over again - that's not the issue. What is at issue is the firm adherence, usually by somewhat novice gardeners, to practices that are not advised simply because that is something they have always done. And then argue about it, as if their use of these practices somehow validates them.

Opinions are fine......if they are based on something other than just empirical observation. Otherwise, they have minimal benefit to others who are open to learning. Gardening - horticulture - is really a science and is governed by scientific principles rather than opinions. Container gardening, because of its restrictions, is even more science based and far less regulated or influenced by opinion.

Again, I apologize if my comments offended you. And hopefully the information I provided will be of benefit to you going forward.

Gardening is not just a science because it is also empirical and experience does count. One does learn from experience without knowing the science underlying it.

gardengal, I am not offended. As I said, I have learned alot. I have more questions but do not wish to hijack this thread. Sometimes people like the old ways for whatever reasons. Newer is not always better. Personally, I use some new stuff and some old stuff. I go with what fits my needs at the time, and, if somebody doesn't agree with me, oh well.

But in the end, can we all agree that a a good porous open mix is ten times better for any for the trees health verses one that is dense and compacts fairly quickly?

And that Organics in pots do not work like they do in the ground. They are very unreliable and not what's best for our trees..

What is convenient for the grower is not always best for the vitality of citrus trees..

These are facts and the experiences of everyone here that I know.

Mike, I have learned so much from you and Silica! It pains me to see you guys at each other’s throats. You have both taught me a lot, I just wish there was someway for you guys to call a truce.

I think i am going next door for a while, Silica allways like to differ. He hurts my feeling, i am a sensitive guys!!!! Not really.

I found Silica's comment about the potted philodendron to be interesting and perfectly appropriate. I'm a gardener, I love all sorts of plants besides citrus and enjoy hearing about oddities like a 4 decade old potted plant that has had almost no care. I think it also might be a slight corrective to the helicopter parenting approach to growing plants that seems to be a theme in many gardening forums.

Laura, you may want to read this. I have made truce many times and even further..)

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4897055/iron-deficiency?n=21

In particular this)

Silica

Trickyputt, WTF ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Like Bookmark October 5, 2017 at 3:36PM

Susanne Michigan Zone 5/6(6)

Silica don't feed the troll please :)

1 Like Bookmark October 5, 2017 at 4:22PM

trickyputt(8a AL)

But Trolls need feeding too. Because you do not care for people learning how to grow on their own I deleted the post that offend you.

mikerno_1micha(Zone 6a, Massachusetts)

Tricky point, get lost since you have nothing nice to say or I shall have to report you to my friends at Houzz...I have never seen such a crude and rude person here in the ten years or so since I have been helping. There is no place for you here I will make sure of it if you can't be respectful or considerate..I suggest you delete your last one too

silica. Just a heads up. Houzz will be coming by as soon as I talk to them. and probably mistake your post for something inappropriate. I don't want him to think anything bad about you since you have been a wonderful help here and I would miss all you have to offer if they banned you by mistake. Waiting on you

I missed that entire thread! Well, you did the right thing Mike.