If it's all true...I don't see this as different as the outrage of unwanted advancements or sexual harrasment women get from men. Granted in the HW case there are accusations of rape but still. And, of course if the accusation of Stacey and a child are true that puts a different spin on it. I dunno maybe I'm feeling this whole thing wrong but it seems some people are more excepting of Stacey's actions because it's man on man instead of man on woman. There doesn't seem to be the same outrage.

I am not quite sure how I feel about the whole thing, I don't think I have enough information. Supposedly the issue in the allegations against HW is that even if it was a grope or an implied threat (rather than actual sexual activity or rape), non-compliance or a complaint meant that a career could be ruined. Am I getting that right? It seems to me that in the HW case, the behavior was equal in many people's minds whether it was a grope, a proposition with an implied threat or actual sexual activity--because non compliance on the part of the victim could me the loss of a career.

So, does KS have the power to ruin a career? If the victim is the case is over 17, and it's an unwanted advance or a grope, no more no less, what are the implications? Does an individual who was 30 at the time of the incident have a less valid complaint than a 30 year old female complainant againsts HW? I bet a lot of people think so mostly because the complainant is male, and males are "supposed to be able to take care of themselves."

On vulture.com there is an explicit first person account of Spacey knowingly carrying on with a different 14 year old when he was in his 20s. The 14 year old thought it was love at the time but now realizes he was the victim of a pedophile.

I've always assumed he was gay so that revelation wasn't a surprise. And completely unrelated he's always set off my creep radar so I am also not surprised that he may have made made others feel sexually uncomfortable or worse.

I am disgusted by the way his apology combined the accusation with his sexuality. They are two completely different topics.

Another sad story this morning, Richard Dryfuss's son is also claiming to have been a victim of Kevin Spacey.

People mag article

The thing that is problematic about some of this is that although an individual below the age of consent can't legally give consent, sometimes sexual contact is consensual. The problem is the age difference, but it may not have been an abusive or coercive relationship in every case. Is the individual who felt "love" in the relationship at the age of 14 or 15 a victim of abuse? What if the person had been 17 instead of 26? A grade school classmate of mine was born when his mother was 14, and she was married to her over-18 yo husband (and still is). Another classmate of mine married at 15 and was not pregnant and her husband was over 18.

Many suburban mothers here get their daughters on birth control as soon as they are in high school. I am not sure it makes all that much difference if the sexual partner is 16 or 20. There are mixed messages here.Because there is a lot of sexual activity at relatively young ages and to some extent if it's not exactly condoned, it's facilitated by the birth control

I am not condoning this because clearly the age difference is problematic. Someone of 26 should not be engaged in a sexual relationship with someone below the age of consent, but on the other hand if it's not coercive and there isn't a power thing or hold over the underage partner, I am not exactly sure if they were victimized like the victims of many pedophiles are, strictly speaking. Both participants are doing something inappropriate and stupid--especially the older one.

I’m saddened by this. It also makes me wonder what is it about these public people who misbehave often and for years and don’t seem to expect their deeds will be exposed at some point, it just doesn’t make sense to me.

Actor Corey Feldman wants to do a tell all to bring down the the "pedophile ring " in Hollywood.

https://youtu.be/x8yhyvOGFRc

Here is an article from USAtoday from a week ago.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/story/801938001/

Pal I wouldn’t agree in this specific case of Kevin Spacey because there was always a power dynamic. Coming onto a 14-year-old that you met as a teacher in an acting class when he was a 12-year-old is clearly inappropriate. It doesn’t matter what the 14-year-old thinks, they can be enchanted all they want, because 14 year olds in general are shortsighted jerks and to a certain extent should be protected from horrible decisions. If it was truly a case of true love I’m sure Spacey could’ve held off until he was legal (in Canada, 16).

In Canada now (as of 2008), the legal age of consent is 16 and from 14 to 16 there is a Romeo and Juliet rule where within 5 years is ok if no power dynamic. 12-13 year olds get a pass if they’re within 1-2 years of age. I think this sets a good balance between puritanism and protecting children from adult predators.

Poor Corey Feldman has been threatening for years to talk about his experiences but never does. I don't blame him for being conflicted about being specific but at some point he has to follow through or stop making announcements about it.

With respect to Kevin Spacey, Harry Dreyfuss said he didn't say anything because he knew it would jeopardize his father's job. So, again, a power dynamic was in play. And honestly, can't we agree that when someone you barely know randomly grabs your crotch it is not the act of someone with good intentions?

According to Corey his life has been threatened. He is trying to raise money for his project, a film.

Compulsive behaviour might be considered a form of emotional/mental illness, so questioning why the idea of getting caught is not an effective deterrent for some people might be moot. Some people report actually feel relief @ being caught.

& don't you need to believe you need help in order to seek it?

& might boys may be "safer" targets than girls for pedophiles because of social stigmas associated w/ homosexuality? That is, boys may be even more shamed into silence than girls & their predators more shamed from seeking help before it's too late. Thinking about Sandusky & how he got away w/ his s**t for so many years...

And I suppose it doesn't matter if there is real power or if it's just perceived. At 14, I felt like a 15 year old could have some "power" over me, in some ways within the context of HS.

I think it’s particularly tough in the LGBTQ communities because in the past (1990s and before, let’s say) my understanding is that a lot of young people found their way into the community by being mentored in by older people. And sometimes that mentoring was benign/platonic and sometimes not. And it would be rare to meet someone your own age, as a teen, who was out, so your dating options would be limited. And often times kids were kicked out and homeless as young (and very young) teens because of homophobic families so they were kind of living as adults and even doing survival sex work at a young age. So I can see how the whole ephebophile thing kind of got a pass when these young kids had so much adult stuff to worry about and on their plates. But I kind of point to the adults to grow past that and realize the troublesome power dynamics.

Sort of different but maybe sort of the same, I think of all those rock stars in the 1970s who had 14-year-old groupies, Or Jerry Lee Lewis marrying that 13 year old, times Definitely have changed. Is it fair to reach back in time and apply today’s morals...although I guess JLL thing was scandalous enough at the time.

Interesting discussion. I have liked Kevin Spacey as an actor for many years, so these revelations about him sadden me. What is he going to treatment for? Sex addiction? I do think this addiction is real, but it seems to be used more and more as an excuse. A friend of mine said HW is not an addict, he's a predator. I tend to agree with her.

I think to some extent, back in the 80s and before, some of it might have had to do with if you went to college and what sort of college you went to, perhaps. I went to a Catholic university and I was pretty naive, so I suppose some things were going on around me, in retrospect, that I didn't pick up on between people of the same age. But I also had a friend who had a (to me) inexplicable friend who was about 40 to his 19 or 20 and he had some convoluted explanation as to how they knew each other, but in retrospect I am sure that they met in a bar or something and had a relationship. Of course, the difference here is that it took place when both were above the age of consent, although there was a x2 age gap.

If you read some of the accounts of Kevin Spacey’s victims, the stories are very predatory. He obviously got a kick out of nonconsensual contact with younger men. I really wouldn’t put him very far from Harvey Weinstein in the predator category.

I don’t know much about kids but my husband’s teen nephews pretty much look like foetuses to me so I just Google image searched grade 8 class and my dear, they certainly look like children to me.

Yes I think "addiction" is something else. It could overlap, but it's not the same.

The other thing that makes me really upset is when predators of young boys, particularly female teachers, get a pass because boys are supposed to want to have sex all the time. I think that is just so wrong and damaging and disgusting! A teacher here recently got 15 months of house arrest for sexually assaulting a grade 9 student and to me that is a travesty.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/3128093/former-n-s-teacher-gets-house-arrest-for-sex-crimes-involving-teenaged-boys/amp/

Robo, aren't you suppose to be doing something else today.

LOL look like foetuses!! Yup, I agree. Not very confusing.

And as for female teachers and boys- yikes- talk about sexism running amok! That shows a complete lack of objective standards of behavior based on ridiculous assumptions.

I didn't realize to day was the day. Rabo, seriously??

I am sitting here by myself cracking up. i forgot today was the day. Robo are you in labor right now?

No!! Grumpy. Apparently it was a busy day on the birth unit so I am supposed to call back after 7pm!!!

i have been reduced to crafting.

At least kitty is well entertained!

Oh man, listening to the mom ( ex Boston TV anchor, Heather Unrun) speak about her son being assualted is heartbreaking. Although her son was under 18, he lied about his age so he would be served alcohol. Spacey got him drunk and then made his move. Happened last July.

I admit to only hearing part of the testimony. So may not have all the info correct.

Maddie, I just saw that too.

I will say that I've always thought KS was creepy but I wasn't sure why.

Amazing how many of these stories are out there and coming out all at once.

It's odd, I am not at all surprised at these stories. I am thrilled they are finally coming out and people may no longer have to suffer through this abuse.

When I was approached about becoming a model as a teenager, my mother told me in no uncertain terms what Hollywood and modeling were like- and she was no insider - the closest she came was as a fit model at one point.

"Amazing how many of these stories are out there and coming out all at once."

There is power in numbers.

Heather Unruh thanked the women who spoke out telling their stories of abuse by H. Weinstein. She said that hearing them speak out gave her son the strength to tell his story. He went to the police a few days ago to report Stacey's actions towards him.

The whole Nantucket story is so bizarre. Spacey assaulted the guy in the restaurant where the guy worked? Being 18 and then also lying about his age sure complicates matters.

His brother wrote a book and it told how they were both sexually abused and mental and physical abuse also. They had a miserable childhood. That being said, I have no problem with him being gay, I always knew he was. It's linking a person's sexual preference to being a sex offender is just wrong. What he has done is punishable by the law and I hope he has to serve time, he and all the others.

And another one is exposed. Jeez, how difficult is it to remember the kindergarten rules. Keep it in your pants and keep your hands to yourself.

Louis CK

Edited to add - I know that it isn't that simple but it is astonishing to me how pervasive the problem is.

Roy Moore - the Senate candidate in Alabama - accused of raping a 14 y.o. girl. He will probably win his election though.

Everyone we are hearing about, is well-known in some capacity, location, career. Imagine all those in private life?

>And another one is exposed. Jeez, how difficult is it to remember the kindergarten rules. Keep it in your pants and keep your hands to yourself.

Louis CK

Edited to add - I know that it isn't that simple but it is astonishing to me how pervasive the problem is<

That's what I like, consistent use of terms.

So, an acquaintance of mine is a friend, collaborator, and coworker of one of these guys. When their activities are cancelled, it affects a lot of people, people who rely on that income for their livelihood. I'm tormented by what all is going on, should people lose their livings because someone is a jerk? If I called out every guy who'd been an ass, even 20 years ago, their kids might have to drop out of college, or their parents (or parents-in-law) move out of their assisted living to god knows what, and so on. Where does it end?

There is going to be a backlash against the backlash, because I agree BP. Some of these allegations are illegal, some just creepy, some just weird. There is a whole continuum. I am conflicted about the seeming abandonment of due process, even though I believe the great majority of those who are coming forward. It seems to me that statutes of limitation exist for a reason.

JN, Roy Moore is not accused of rape, but of sexual assault. Aggravated by taking a minor to a home for that purpose, making it a felony.

If you haven't seen This NY Times opinion piece written by swimmer Diane Nyad you may want to read it. Heartbreaking story of how her coach abused her starting when she was 14.

Thank you Maddlelee for the link. It brought tears to my eyes.

bp, I do feel bad for innocent people who lose jobs as collateral damage when abusers are busted and a production shuts down. But what should we do? Turn a blind eye and say nothing? Argue that people will lose jobs?

A production shuts down, I imagine, because they don't want to take the backlash themselves, and because they may continue to pour money into it and lose money because people won't pay to see it, advertisers won't support it because they think people will boycott their products, and so on. They don't shut down to punish the one person, and it's not about being righteous or indignant, it's all about self-preservation.

What should be done?

When a production is built around one star, musician, character in a drama, etc., it's kinda hard to salvage it. It's a risk of doing business.

If a prominent person in a company makes a bad business decision or is ill or is arrested, the business is going to suffer. If very unfortunate that it impacts others but it's like many things in life. Sometimes bad things happen that we can't control.

I recently talked to a cousin who has been damaged beyond all help by a predator. The same predator abused me, and I learned last summer, many other women in my family-when they were young girls. I learned that the predators son told his sister (my cousin's mother) that if she only knew the stories. So apparently his predation was wide spread and an unspoken secret.

I have only recently come forward to a few family members about my abuse. This happened over 45 years ago but it affected my entire life, for years I blamed myself and I was victimized over and over by others until I finally met my husband and felt safe. So I fully understand why victims take years to come forward. My cousin has been ostracized by a great many family members-they think she's lying and blaming it on her subsequent drug and alcohol abuse.

I believe accusers. To come forward, to risk everything, is something no one is going to do if there is not truth behind it. I'm still not ready to tell some people, I'm not brave enough to throw my family into utter turmoil. To some, they hold the predator in highest esteem-he presented himself publicly as a great man, but he was a monster and I refuse to say his name.

Male or female, victims of sexual abuse should never be discounted. It totally screws up your life. No one gets out of it 'normally'. Every woman I've learned who was a victim of my predator has had substance abuse issues and/or married abusive men or some other form of self-abuse as a result of dealing with the shame of being abused by someone you trusted.

But but but...if you read the Diane Nyad piece I linked above, you will see that in the 'olden days' (late 60s to through the 70s) her abuser-coach was fired from his high school job and was able to go to another school district and be hired again. He then went on to coaching (maybe abusing?) at the college level and then Olympic teams.

Much like abuser-priests were transferred from parish to parish.

I am all for calling them out. Loud and clear. Like any war there is always collateral damage. Sadly.

And sadly, Aly Raisman has now stated she was abused by the gymnastics team doctor. It's just horrible all around.

Saw this on a tweet:

"half the women you know have been forced to relive some of the worst traumas of their lives on loop for the past month so idk maybe buy a coffee soon for a woman you care about."

I don't know what can be done about people losing jobs due to the behavior of these guys but I hope there is not backlash against the backlash. I don't think there is much that can be done really, it is unfortunate for these people to lose their jobs, but the anger should be toward the abuser, not the people who are reporting them. I think more men will go down, and I agree Robo, there must be many men wondering if they're going to be next. I also hope that people will finally stop going to see Woody Allen films when his next one comes out which is due to be released soon. And that actors will stop taking roles in them.

This is reminding me of this very interesting & somewhat disturbing report I heard recently from Marketplace.org:

"...The cost of sexual harassment to businesses is well documented in the form of settlements, lost work time and loss of business. But what about the economic and career costs for the people who experience sexual harassment?

Heather McLaughlin, an assistant professor of sociology at Oklahoma State University, is one of the few people who has looked into this. She studied the economic and career effects of sexual harassment on working women and interviewed them about their experiences....

...O'Leary: Well, what did you find was sort of the most immediate cost for women who had been harassed?

McLaughlin: So, most immediately, we found that a really large percentage of women quit their jobs. That's not all that surprising, unfortunately. At the time of our research, we were looking at women who were in their late 20s. A little over half of women started a new job in this two-year window that we were looking at. But for those who experienced more severe sexual harassment, it was 80 percent...

...McLaughlin: So women were quitting their jobs either because of the sexual harassment itself or because of the way that the sexual harassment was handled. They were quitting their jobs and they were also reporting more immediate financial stress.

O'Leary: You also look long term and you found that women who experience harassment actually saw their wages stagnate. What was going on there?

McLaughlin: Yeah. We found that a lot of women who quit their jobs were starting over in new careers entirely. So some of them were able to find comparable jobs in the same field. But many of them, this really affected the types of jobs that they were looking for. So they wanted to work in a field where, you know, for example, they thought that sexual harassment was less likely to occur...

...O'Leary: I have to ask — someone could listen to this interview and say, "Well, yeah, but quitting is voluntary." What would you say to that?

McLaughlin: Yeah, I think that this is a less than voluntary decision. People are forced out of these jobs when you have the decision of whether or not to go into work today and experience these types of behaviors again. So, do I really want to get up again this morning and go in and experience unwanted touching? Or staring? Or leering? Or comments about my body and what I'm wearing? ..."

https://www.marketplace.org/2017/11/03/business/how-women-pay-economic-price-after-sexual-harassment

I agree that the fact that innocent people can be hurt by the business impact is just not relevant; why is their harm more important that protecting would-be future victims? As someone said above, essentially, stuff happens.

It's the due process part that gives me pause. I applaud females for speaking out, but it is unclear to me in some cases whether firings are justified. For entertainment figures, the public can decide and that is just part of the business, fair or no. In many states, people are employed at will so the employer doesn't need to prove anything.