My sister, who is six years younger than me, was sexually abused by a teacher/coach while in high school. Over the years, she suffered emotionally quite a bit with it, went to counseling, therapy, the works. She did not tell us until many years later. We found out that she was not his first, definitely not his last. She was so brave as to report it to the school, when he was still there (and apparently still "on the prowl" of innocent, young girls.) What did the school do? Ignore her claim and later named the baseball field after him, because he was such a wonderful coach. Disgusting man.

Perhaps this has nothing to do with Paterno/Penn State, but my heart breaks for the many innocent victims, the trauma they have suffered. This also reminds me of when Cardinal Bernard Law looked the other way while the priests where having their way with the young boys.

wodka, I'm sorry for what happened to your sister, and I think it has everything to do with this.

Maybe these people are narcissists, as discussed on a recent thread, as well as pedophiles. They seem to have no conscience, take what they want with no regard to the great harm they do to others! I agree with you, the guy you are talking about, Sandusky, the priests, are truly disgusting.

Did anyone happen to see the interview this morning on Today? One of the victims' lawyers spoke. The issue was raised over the victims feeling guilty for not so much what happened, but that they had a part in bringing it out in the open. They would not state the victim's age, or any personal info in order to help protect the identity. I hope that continues.

I agree with much of your post Cyn. It is interesting to hear your thoughts since you are there and know much more of what is going on. As I stated in my first response to this thread, I had no idea who Pantero was. I do not watch football (bad since I work for a university - right?). I agree about speculating. I believe there is going to be a news special tonight on Bryan Williams new show.

McQueary a victim? That is ridiculous. Ask the mother of one of the victims if she thinks he is a victim.

Just thought I'd throw this out there, from a slightly different angle. My daughter is a freshman at Penn State right now. First semester. She is a science student, accepted straight into the science college, taking heavy math, bio, chem, classes. She lives in a dorm that is strictly female, mixed age/grade levels, all women engineers or scientists. She never went to a football game in high school, doesn't drink or smoke anything, loves nature, animals, knitting, reading, movies. Serious kid in otherwords (she's fun and funny too, don't want to make her sound boring). Anyway, there are other kids like her at Penn State. She is there for the academics. The school has been so football-centric that they have not promoted themselves as a serious university but there IS a serious university in there somewhere. Actually, I didn't want her to go there because I didn't think she'd be happy there. But when her acceptances came she decided it offered beautiful labs, many research opportunities, and access to more activities than she'd find at a small school. Anyway, she reads all the papers and sees the coverage of the "Stupid insensitive rioting Penn State kids." She wasn't part of that (there are 40,000 kids at the school and they say 2,000 were rioting that night). Her friends weren't part of that. She says the same kids who start partying on Thursday night (Thirsty Thursday) are the "idiots" -- her words -- who are angry about Paterno's firing. And yes, there are kids there who don't see the point -- and do think Paterno is the victim here. She gets it though, is disgusted by it all, and yet she, and lots of her friends, feel like they're being painted with the same brush as those other kids. They are upset. I explain this is how it works, this is what makes news. She is focusing on her work (and there's tons of it). As a parent who is paying a heck of a lot of $$$ (even in-state, it's the most expensive state-related univ in the US) I am watching and waiting to see what the school does now. So far, I'm not impressed. I don't think they should have hired a trustee as the head of the special committee to investigate either, esp. one who was involved in covering up adverse events related to Vioxx! Anyway, my daughter likes her dorm, likes her friends, likes her professors, is doing well academically. But she is worried that she shouldn't stay, that this scandal will degrade the value of her education, and that when she graduates (and for the rest of her life) people will say "Oh, you were there for THAT?" I know this has nothing to do with the horrible and disgusting acts of cowardice and criminal behavior that are being discussed here. I realize it's nothing compared to the children who were sexually abused. But I have a kid whose got to live in this environment now and is upset and I'm not sure what to tell her. You know, I was prepared for her to have problems adjusting to normal things: cafeteria food, roommate problems, homesickness, but THIS???? Um, NO!!!

I'm a victim of child sexual assault.

If I had been one of Sandusky's victims, I would want every single person that had the slightest bit of knowledge brought down to their knees. I wouldn't care if it ruined a university, a state or a country.

Good men seek the truth. They don't ignore it. Paterno, McQueary, Spanier and anyone else with even an INKLING of what was going on should go to their graves with shame.

Simply and powerfully said kellyeng. To add to your voice:

The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. -Albert Einstein

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

And of course, "All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to stand by and do nothing." -source of this quote is unconfirmed....

kellyeng, my heart goes out to you. I agree with bestyears, your post was powerful.

judithn, I live across the country from Penn and I never thought that all or most of the students were as clueless as the small number who rioted. Your daughter sounds like a smart and caring young woman and I wish her the best.

I think as the story unfolds we'll find out that there were many, many more people that were involved in this for many years. And there will be many others pulling in favors and helping bury the truth now.

Did anyone see the headline today that the judge that allowed Sandusky out of jail was a former volunteer for his charity?

McQueary clearly choked. Would I have done something differently? I sure hope so, but what I find even more disgusting is that even after that, knowing what he knew, he continued to work for those same people, in that same institution, for all of these years. When it became clear that no one was going to do anything, he was still part of the team. I think the second choice speaks more for his character than the first.

Apparently there was knowledge that Sandusky was a perv all the way back to the 1990's. Some sexually inappropriate behavior was reported to the police, there was an investigation, and they did...nothing.

Cyn, WTH are you talking about and why the vitriol towards me?

I know people who've witnessed the most awful things and yes, it victimizes them for the rest of their life. Some of them end up with PTSS. I'm not saying that really happened to Mc, but I could easily understand how he could mentally freez and go to his dad. No need to attack me.

As far as Paterno, I keep up with college football and many coaches go the extra mile. Many. But it IS unusual for a coach to work at the same school for that long! Since I typed what I did above, I've heard news reports that P. basically ran Penn State.

Calm down!

Natal, why don't you join in a conversation for a change instead of taking personal digs at fellow posters?

Kelly - you've always seemed like a strong, decisive woman here on this board. I thank you for sharing with us and for your wise words. I totally agree with you and bestyears. The VICTIMS are who are important here. I don't understand how anyone can make excuses for any of those who were involved in this - whether they actually took part in the abuse or covered it up.

tina

Kelly you put things into crystal clear perspective and in my mind, end any speculation in defining who fits victim status. Thank you for trusting us by sharing that part of your past and thus speaking for the children in the Sandusky case.

Kelly, that was powerfully said. Thank you for speaking out like that.

I'm horrified that Sandusky is now referring to "what happened in the showers" as "horseplay." My God. Even the sound of that man's voice makes me feel physically squeamish.

I agree with those who thanked kellyeng for sharing such a private, personal story to speak for, and help put a face on, all victims of sexual abuse/assault. Her voice, and those of any other victims, who choose to remain private, but expressed their thoughts here, are the only opinions that really count on this topic IMO.
Dee

Oakley, once again ... everything is not about you.

Oh my, you guys choked me up. Thank you so much.

I too, applaud you Kellyeng. It is so admirable of you to speak out on behalf of the children victimized, and to share your personal story and insight.

Auntjen...indeed..."horseplay?" So, let me get this straight. If we see naked adults showering with children, as long as we don't witness an overt sexual "act," we should brush this off as merely horseplay? Only in the mind of a pedophile!

Yep. He claims he "horsed around."

Here is a link that might be useful: Story

The minute he opened his mouth it was pretty obvious he was lying. If you're not sexually attracted to young boys the response to that question should have been a very loud and adamant NO! Instead he started dancing around it. What a creep!

Kellyeng unless your abuser is deceased, has already been convicted, or was unknown to you, statutes may allow you bring charges against your abuser. Some statutes allow for the lifetime of the child (victim under 18 at the time of the abuse). Pennsylvania allows until the victim reaches 50 years of age. If you have not already done so, you may not have know that you have the opportunity.

My coworker reported and saw her grandfather imprisoned last year, some 20 years after the abuse.

----------
Graywings, that was an single sentence I accidentally submitted from my phone, when I was giving up trying to text from there. Nonetheless "[Greywings], I'm sure there is a better way to phrase this, but yours is a really, really stupid flawed" conclusion to make from that one statement.

I was going to add that compared to a stabbing, which someone else mentioned, that even people who have been Trained to deal with these situations, have been known to screw them up(especially sexual, domestic and anything that smacks of "homosexuality" --which this is not). One persons statement with a superior's vehement denial, and a child's refusal to corroborate/parent's refusal to subject a child to more trauma through immediate physical exam, are all confounding factors.(Anybody remember the Michael Jackson trial outcome; and adult cases William Kennedy Smith and various other cases involving high profile defendants?) And this guy is denying it still with MULTIPLE accusers. not just one.

One of my acquaintances lied for years to protect his abuser, and because of his own need for privacy and reputation. Boy's handle this differently, and I think there is much more denial and repression on the parts of the victims, at least there has been in the victims I know. In no way am I condoning how this was handled, turning a blind eye, or all the other things I have been accused of...simply pointing out that its easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, and say it would all have gone better had (the generic) You been there instead of that teaching assistant.

____

"Makes you wonder about the faces behind the comments ... and what they could be hiding."

This comment reveals much more about the poster than it hides.

Interesting that you picked up on that.

Guess Sandusky's lawyer advised him to go with the "horseplay" angle. Really amazing. We're supposed to actually wrap our minds around the notion that a nude adult showering after a game with a child and "snapping towels" was just wholesome, clean fun. Normal even. Right. How repugnant.

No, it's not all about me, Natal. But stop with your personal bashing of others. You sit back and backhandedly point fingers at others, who, I have no idea. Just wish you'd be kinder in these discussions is all instead of bringing the whole topic down with your incessant sarcasm.

You all continue. Not in the mood to be "verbally" abused here.

Making observations like everyone else ... you included. I didn't call you out for the unfounded accusation you made against Cyn. If some of you want to make excuses for why things weren't handled differently that's your problem, but it does make one wonder why.

My son and I were talking about this situation the other day with me telling him that, as a middle school coach, he and others like him are going to be under extreme scrutiny. He proceeded to tell me a story about when he was 11 or 12 and their coach showered with them, then walked naked into the locker room area where he (the coach) put his foot up on the bench and began to talk with them. DS said he and the other boys just looked at each other, but he never told me this story before (he's now 36). They knew it was wrong but still didn't report it. He said they didn't want to make a big deal out of it.

The coach is now dead or I would report him now.

I saw almost every male coach in my HS naked in the locker room, particularly if they physically worked out with the team. If they did not make any kind of verbal or physical overture, there is nothing that rare or unusual about that.

I would agree if it had been high school; it was 7th grade.

When children are sexually abused, especially by someone they know and are supposed to trust, making the report is unfathomable. I couldn't tell anyone when it happened to me. I was incredibly ashamed and I felt that if I'd said something *I* would have been in trouble. As an adult, I realized, of course, that thinking that way was wrong.

Later, as a teenager, I reported inappropriate touching by a much older man, and was virtually ostracized. I was told I must have been mistaken and that he'd never do such a thing. So now, more gulit!

Then as an adult, I was sexually assaulted by an aquaintance. Initially I said nothing...kind of conditioned to keep quiet...but my then-estranged husband learned what happened and brought in the authorities. At that time it ended up being my word against his (the assailant) and it was not pursued further by the authorities.

Add in the multiple occasions of sexual harassment over the years. Never went forward on those because a pattern had been established tha no one tends to believe the victim.

Sexual abuse victims NEED advocates. Instead of so many burying their heads in the sand and trying to convince themselves that the horrific events they witness or even just suspect are not really happening. We can't expect the victims to be the ones to take action, but they should be listened to and not made to feel they're at fault for anything that happens to the monster who has abused them.

I've finally made peace with myself, and quit blaming myself for the things that happened to me. But I still have a hard time talking about it because I still feel guilt and shame, even tho I know I did nothing wrong.

Pal, it IS wrong for an adult male to be nude around young boys. Even if nothing untoward occurred, it's still treading on delicate ground and at a minimum is inappropriate. I have no problem with age appropriate co-showering, and have no problem with nudity, but it has no place with adults and children.

Inadvertently causing someone embarrassment is not a crime. Unless he said something or made some kind of overture, he was a male in a male locker room. What about at pool or beach facilities? I saw naked males changing in there of Every age when I was little. What about the YMCA? Men used to swim naked in the pool because no females were permitted. I never experienced that first hand. I don't know what female locker rooms or showers are like but male locker rooms and showers are wide open. Pennsylvania State Law required (I don't know if it still does)--a shower before entering a public pool. Sometimes people did this before they put on their suits. Unless you came from home wearing a bathing suit and left that way, if you changed from street clothes you were naked in front of other people of the same sex at some point.

Dee reporting something like that would be the responsibility of your son IF he felt there was something inappropriate other than feeling embarrassed. If it was same sex nudity in a male locker room and thats all it was, you would also open yourself to a civil suit for defamation if there was an investigation that became public, I think.

This is also something that would actually Detract from the cases of people who suffered Real abuse.

Palimpsest, thank you for your concern but I'm well aware of my victim's rights and I am satisfied with my abuser's punishment.

Tina, just to clarify, I am not there now. Went to graduate school there and like many across PA, have long-standing ties with Penn State.

Judith, I hope your daughter can hang in there. Penn State is always ranked near the top for public universities for its academics. I would hate to see them lose a wonderful student and amazing woman because of this.

pesky, you have had to deal with so much in your life, and from such a young age! Sending hugs, and you are in my thoughts and prayers.

Kellyeng, thank you for being so honest about your experience. I'm sorry for what you endured, but I believe your sharing helps those victims who've been silent to gather the courage to speak out.

Pesky1, your story sounds too much like my own, and I am so sorry. Thank you for speaking up. It is awful to feel that the terrible things done to you were somehow your own fault. I'm glad you're more at peace with yourself now, and I hope that the current discussion about the events at PennState will help remove any last vestiges of totally undeserved guilt or shame.

My apologies now for going on at length - this is a hot topic for me -
In my case, my mother whipped me with a belt when I told her about being molested by a neighbor. Five years later, when I hit puberty, she told me repeatedly that rape victims "ask for it" by the way they dress or the company they keep or the places they go. So when I was raped at the start of 8th grade, I didn't dare tell her because I knew she'd whip me again. Obviously, my suicide attempt failed.

About a year and a half later, a religion teacher took me under his wing and I confided my story. My mother was delighted when he offered to drive me home because we lived so far from the school and it saved her the trouble. She was too busy at the country club to notice that I always came home late. He spent quite a while "grooming" me and playing on the bizarre notions my mother had taught me. He proclaimed his "love" for me while telling me that no other man would marry "damaged goods." All the while, he kept pushing for sex. I told another teacher, but she thought it was "cute" and said that in another decade or so our age difference wouldn't matter. He volunteered as a faculty chaperone on an overnight trip, during which he forced himself on me. I was afraid to scream because the other students would hear and then the story would spread like wildfire through the school. Later, I learned that he'd targeted another girl. Somehow, I found my voice and told the teacher that I'd go to both the diocese and the police if he didn't quit teaching, at our school or any where else in our community, and leave underage girls alone. He resigned immediately and went to work in his father's shop. A couple of years later he married someone closer to his age, a woman 15 yrs. older than me. He died about a decade ago. Not long after I heard about his death, I happened to speak with the priest who'd been the head of the school. I mentioned the man, and his death by prostate cancer, and made a not very nice crack. The priest's tone went from cordial to coldly angry. He insisted that man had never taught at the school, and even went through the pretense of searching his old files to "verify" it. He ranted about people trying to destroy the church with lawsuits, when I'd never even hinted at litigation. I've always wondered if his show of anger was due to a guilty conscience.

As stories began to emerge about priests who'd been moved from diocese to diocese due to abuse charges, I learned that the pastor of the parish where I'd made my First Communion had been a pedophile. He died not long after admitting his guilt. Another one of my teachers was transferred to the midwest under false pretenses, while yet another was sent to a different diocese in our state. Subsequent bishops have admitted both were guilty of abuse. There seem to be some similarities in the attitudes about protecting the institution between the church and PennState. I've always wondered how these people could sleep at night, or how they could pray the Confiteor each Sunday in which they ask forgiveness "for what I have done and what I have failed to do."

As for me, I'm all for tying the proverbial millstone around their necks and letting them drown.

On a lesser note, my dh attended an all boys private school and was active in sports. He said that he never saw a coach naked, never knew of a coach showering with the students, and never could imagine how any man could find it appropriate to engage in what Sandusky has termed "horseplay" with a child in the shower.

My son related the story to me as a 36 year old teacher and coach, with 12 plus years experience in basketball, football, baseball, and track, and this was the one incident he remembered as being similar to Sandusky's circumstance, and it was because it was abnormal, in his experience, for a coach to stand naked and fully exposed in front of a group of pre-teen boys. I still say I would report it as inappropriate to the school.

Rockmanor...I wish I could hug you. I am utterly outraged by the Penn State disaster. I couldn't relate to the whole Catholic church scandal, I didn't pay much attention to it, I suppose...but this PS...it seemed to hit home so hard for me.

I don't know if it's because I'd been victimized before, therefore I've got a heightened awareness of abusers, or if more people just don't 'get it', but I seem to have experienced a higher number of occurances of sexual harrassment too. I don't mean just dirty jokes told in my direction or talking to my chest instead of my face, but outright illegal activities...straight out of the headlines stuff. And again, it's always the whole fault of the woman who is subject to this garbage. But that is a whole 'nother topic.

Pal...some womens locker rooms have communal showers, some have seperate stalls. But I'd never had a female PE coach shower with us. I'd be outraged as a parent if my son, HS age or not, was nude with an adult male. With boys his age, is one thing, but in a situation as this...with the coach standing around nude, too...that's just way out of line.

My son is in his 20's now, but when he was a small boy and needed to use the restroom, I would stand outside the door, holding the entrance door open and talk to him out loud. I instructed him to use a stall, not the urinal, so he'd have privacy (or protected from predators). I made it clear that I was there, so if there were any predators around, they knew I had no qualms going in there. I actually had some men tell me that that was a great idea, they wished their moms had done that when they were kids.

I have two now college aged boys who played hockey from 10 years up through high school. Once they got into high school they showered at the rink after every practice and game. The boys showered together, but never did the coach strip down and shower with the boys.

Why would a coach even want to do that? Nudity is a commonplace thing amongst same sex athletes in the locker room - I do agree with that but Coaches stripping down and showering with the kids they coach?

I cannot fathom how that would be appropriate at any age - especially when they're 10. Plus, I do not know of any 10 year old kids who shower at a gym or rink after an athletic activity - especially with an adult. What would a 10 year old boy being doing at Penn State anyways that would get them so dirty they couldn't wait to take a shower until they got home? 8-10 year olds don't stink when they sweat!

There is no way you can slice and dice this situation and make it even close to being acceptable behavior.

I should clarify that there was a shower that was separate for the coaches but they had to come outside of their office to use it. They did not shower in the main shower. Nor did they engage in horseplay or, usually eny kind of conversation, or "hang around". But if an adult male being naked in the same facility as a younger male in and of itself is automatically unacceptable, then hundreds of boys in my high school ages 13-18, thousands of boys at the public pool (all ages) and at the local recreation lake with changing facilities were all subject to systematic sexual abuse. Simply by the design of the facility. Is that what you are saying? I think this mentality is what makes it so difficult to prosecute real abuse.

Palimpsest - maybe you should join the Sandusky defense team. You seem to be looking for every avenue to relieve him of responsibility.

You're right, Graywings. The "devil's advocate" tenor is reprehensible.

I would say nudity in itself isn't unacceptable, but I do think that nudity of an adult role model amongst kids is not acceptable. That's what towels are for! I would think even at a pool, community locker room etc. A normal male behavior would be to turn his back and shield his nudity in front of young children or even strangers. I know if I'm in a locker room of women and changing my clothes, I turn my back to give myself some privacy.

I was listening to ESPN radio and they were going through a list of athletes, coaches, administrators - and asked each of them would you take a shower with a 10 year old, and do you think this is acceptable in the sports world. They unanimously responded NO to each of these questions. So, I would have to say that No, it's not commonplace in any situation for adults to shower with young children they coach or mentor.

It's shows how truly twisted Sandusky's mind is about the whole situation when he was interviewed and he never said what he did was wrong and unacceptable. He just said he regretted it - I think he regrets it only because he got caught. He's a pedophile who thinks he's being wonderfully attentive and loving to these boys. He needs help and any defense attorney who tries to twist this into just "horseplay" isn't doing him any favors.

On another note, I was listening to Penn State students talking on the radio who were so upset about how this situation has tarnished the reputation of Penn State and how they feel when they say they are graduates of Penn State, people are just going to ask them if they were there when this happened etc. I would hope that isn't the case - the students and faculty are what makes Penn State a fine university. None of whom had anything at all to do with this scandel/coverup.

I am not relieving Sandusky of anything his behavior is disgusting. Way to jump to conclusions, but you've shown yourselves experts at that.

But if you equate incidental nudity with SODOMY, I find that reprehensible. It's an Insult to individuals who have actually suffered sexual abuse to put the two in the same category.

But I forget I am talking to a group of women who apparently know more about men's locker rooms than an actual man does.

Jen, if you actually contributed to the discussion instead of sticking to pointing out perceived personality flaws in other posters, I might actually give you more respect.

I couldn't care less if you respect me or not. You are not the reason I post in this forum. Get over yourself.

Yeah and you whine about how I don't respect people by being condescending. If you actually contributed more often instead of agitating and pointing out what you don't like about people's opinions and personalities, I probably would respect your opinions more. You are a professional at taking offense at all things, I've got your number. And if you really cared less about all the things you say you do, you would ignore them, instead of commenting on them. And that's what I am going to start doing to you now.

Pal, most of us have brothers, husbands and/or sons who have talked with us about their locker room experiences since this story broke. It appears that *not one* ever had a coach shower with the children or teens in his charge. I haven't seen anyone equate nudity with sodomy, but people have pointed out how totally inappropriate, wrong and reprehensible Sandusky's behavior would have been IF indeed all that he did was take a shower and engage in "horseplay" as he has admitted.

OTOH, I am aware that there were once legitimate athletic clubs for men in which the members swam nude. My FIL belonged to a very old and rather clubby such place, and he even took his sons there once. Dh (who was probably about 10 - 12) recalls finding the sight of grey haired wrinkled old men swimming without a Speedo both disgusting and embarrassing. He and his brothers told their dad they didn't want to go back there; he shrugged it off and never suggested it again. Dh didn't think of it again until a conversation about attitudes toward nudity. He said that as an adult he'd act the way Caroleoh described, not just from a sense of personal modesty but because he'd never want to be at risk of accusations of inappropriate behavior.

"..if you equate incidental nudity with SODOMY, I find that reprehensible."

For one thing, in this instance, the nudity was not "incidental." If a child was to have a brief glimpse of some adult passing through a locker room naked, that would be incidental. That scenario may incite nothing more than a case of the giggles for a child, and surely things like this will happen. Clearly, an adult male showering with a child is an intentional act, and a highly innappropriate one.

While a child being subjected to viewing nudity is not to be given the same weight as a brutal assault, there are parents who prefer to be the judge of if, when, and where it is acceptable for someone to appear naked in front of their children.

Some parents go to great lengths in their own homes not to appear nude in front of their children. Whether that approach is uptight, prudish, or bad parenting isn't anyone's business. It's simple. Parents, not coaches or teachers, have the final say in such matters, imo.

I clarified that the coaches Did Not Shower in the same shower, but there was some incidental nudity. I agree that showering with the boys was strange, but casual nudity among men seems to be less modest than among women, and some men are very immodest. A friend of mine saw a former mayor of the city (when he was mayor) standing completely naked in the middle of his gym locker room having a lengthy conversation with someone. My friend was not a member of the gym yet, he was on a Tour of the gym and saw this. Before you jump to any conclusions Again: I am Not Condoning this, I would Be Embarrassed by it, but some men Lack Modesty.

I HATED the locker room for a long time, personally. I was very shy and did not like the openness of the whole locker room environment. However I don't feel that I was the subject of sexual abuse, just because I was embarrassed by it.

Your last statement is indicative of how the culture has changed: "not just from a sense of personal modesty but because he'd never want to be at risk of accusations of inappropriate behavior".

Yes Pal, you go right ahead and "put me on ignore", but be sure to do a little song and dance in true drama queen fashion to let everyone know that's what you've done. You've "got my number." I'm shaking. LOL!

Yes, the culture has changed, and most people realize it. Perhaps young adults in the workplace are more aware of sexual harassment now because of being lectured about it in college, but old fogies like dh and me are not unaware of how times have changed. He self-edits his conversation at work for many reasons, one of which is realizing that what he may think of as an innocent remark someone else may find inappropriate. An example is that he no longer comments on personal appearance other than perhaps to make a generic remark such as, "You look very cheerful today" and he's been heard to say the same to both men and women.

Sadly, for those who've experienced real sexual harassment or assault at work, there are those few who cry foul for no good reason. Dh is aware of a couple of women who have a history of making such complaints and he takes pains to never be alone in an office, conference room or elevator with them, despite his reputation as an "altar boy" who would never dream of doing anything immoral. Some men don't get it and keep making inappropriate remarks that might not have raised an eyebrow 30 - 40 years ago but are not well received now.

This situation isn't about just words, but about actions. And the victims aren't adults but children. And showering with boys (or horsing around while nude as the perpetrator termed it) is not just "strange" but so far over the line as to render the line invisible. I cannot fathom how Sandusky believed that was innocent behavior. Did he go home at night and tell his wife and family about playing nude in the shower with some boy? If he believed it to be okay, then why not?

A coach who showers with 12 boys and hangs out naked in front of them is an idiot who shows very poor judgment.

A coach who showers alone with one boy is likely a pedophile.

But not discerning the difference is what can make convicting the true pedophile more difficult, imo.

Today at my gym, there was a group of small boys (maybe 4-5 of them) using the pool for swimming lessons (Girls do too). There are no adults in the pool at that time.

However, these boys have to change somewhere. Where would you rather have them change? In the adult locker room where they might see adult males naked and be embarrassed or grossed out? Or off in a private area with a single male adult?

For my money I would want my boy out where every move is witnessed by a bunch of other people. I think sequestering the boys with one adult is more of a potential abuse situation.

I have an older friend who won a summer scholarship to a Manhattan Art School in his Jr year of HS. His parents in a mistaken move to protect their 16 or 17 year old son from the big bad city refused to house him in the dorms where it was co-educational but separate.

They got him a room in the YMCA. His parents were not gone a half hour before he was propositioned for sex, and he saw and heard all sorts of sexual and drug activity that summer. Had he chosen to he had access to any kind of sex, male (or female, through sources at the Y) and any kind of drug.

He was too smart and too afraid to indulge in anything, and never told his parents that they unwittingly put him in a hotbed of illicit activity (in the late 60s), when they were trying to protect him.

Pal, this article makes points that you have made here.

What I draw from it is a reminder that there is merit in looking within and examining how the power of cultural influences can potentially steer us in all the wrong directions. Behavior is not always that easy to predict or explain. Point taken.

It is valuable to review our human history, and the sociology of bearing witness to tragedy. Upon reflection, the record has been quite disappointing, to say the least.

In the Penn State matter, I think the grandiosity and narcissism of a "star" college football culture trumped decency and blinded the "players" to the moral corruption in their midst.

Here is a link that might be useful: looking at ourselves