The way I look at it now is that you can wait x years to potentially find a dwarf NZL or you can get one now(ish) and put that time into your tree. I thought the same and refused to order a 1 yr AFL and waited over a year before FW had a 3 yr in stock. Now my 3 year didn't get fruits this year and other peoples small trees already have fruit. I wish I would have just taken Laura's advice and gotten the smaller tree instead of waiting for a mythical larger one to be available. Now I think this only really applies to rarer varieties, if its some thing you know multiple sources will carry but they are just out now you can wait, but if only a few people have a small amount sometimes with long gaps in availability in between its best in my opinion to jump on it. Also I am sure that there are a few people that would be interested in getting a NZL on dwarf stock, maybe you all could get together and see if he will do a batch of them.

Sammers You have made some good points. I am just wondering if Four Winds will have something bigger than a 1 gal entry available next year if they are offering 2 sizes from now on. Stan is going to do his grafting in December, but I have no idea how big the graft or the plant will be other than 1 gal. Four Winds may have more growth on theirs by spring than Stan's graft. On the other hand, Four Winds are always sold out and Stan has some now. Choices, choices, choices. lol.

Who else wants a tree with a dwarf rootstock? He asked that I get back in touch with him in December to remind him because he is too busy to do it until then. A group buy may be a good idea. Any takers?

I highly doubt it, four winds have always had larger sizes than entry and they have not in the last two years had anything other than an entry available. And why would they bother waiting another two years to let the trees grow if they always sell out within minutes of the entry size? The cost of maintenance for that tree for an extra few years probably outweighs the price difference and profit between the entry and premium sizes. Until the hype from the NZL dies down I don't expect to see premiums but I guess they could always surprise me. AFL's are more readily available from many retailers and hardly anyone ever has anything larger than a 1 gal. I am sad I waited and paid more for a tree that I could have just got earlier on and been almost just as happy with. Plus if rootstock is important to you FW isn't on a true dwarf stock so it will be larger and grow "faster" than one on a slower growing rootstock like FD.

It looks like I am going to send an email to FW to answer some of my questions. Thank you for your opinions.

I'll also chime in that my NZL is from FW and it was really shabby and small when I got it, and hasn't done much this whole summer vs Lauras tree from Stan looked fantastic and has put on tremendous growth, I have not ordered from Stan before but I haven't seen any negative feedback from people who have. I actually might be interested in getting one from him instead and comparing the two trees over time. I'd love to hear what FW has to tell you about the tree though!

Sammers, i bought my AFL and NZL from stan and am happy with my purchase. My NZL isnt that much smaller than entry at FW and my AFL was just grafted when i got it and is growing like crazy. Stan is also very helpful.

My primary concern is the rootstock, not the amount of growth that a tree puts out in a year. Well not quite true. lol. I do want fruit ASAP but figure waiting 3 years for fruit from a new graft is a long wait. That is the whole point for me having the tree. Growth just takes time and will do fine if it's healthy. Stan McKenzie has a stellar reputation so I have no worries there.

I have purchased 6 trees from Lowes and they are all standard sizes. They will be literally a pain to bring into the house/garage as they get larger and I get older. Buyer's remorse right now. I am 57 and not getting stronger. lol. The trees from FW that I have purchased in the past are more manageable and much easier to move around when winter rolls around. I am assuming all of Stan's past customers have standard sized trees?

I did send the email to FW customer service.

EDIT: Response was that Ashley is on vacation until the 17th and replies will be given in the order received. Unbelievable that nobody will answer customer service questions while she is gone. Didn't Lillian say they get a lot (like hundreds) of emails on a daily basis?

Denise, if you are not already familiar research "drop crotch pruning" John has mentioned it many times and that's how I plan to get my standard size trees smaller and more manageable. I figure it you start shaping them while they are still a manageable size that they won't ever get too far away from you. I totally relate to wanting fruit sooner, I always try and buy the largest and oldest trees I can but when I do have to get a small tree, like my recently grafted Yuzu from OGW I just remind myself I have other trees that will be producing soon so I won't be left with nothing, its still hard though.

Sammers, I am not familiar with "drop crotch pruning." Will do a search on here for that method. Thank you.

I have always heard that merely by virtue of having the tree in a container, you can reduce its size. My tree from Stan is a great tree - tall, but not bushy. I don't remember what size it was, but it was small. It has grown well though and is much more manageable than many of my other trees including the ST, which grows out. I would say to just get the one he has. I think you will be fine with it.

That is exactly what Stan said over the phone about root pruning but I would prefer not doing it as often with a standard. I have seen some really large root balls online and I cannot imagine my wrestling with them by myself. A lot of work for one person and I am getting older and weaker.

Ashley is on vacation until the 17th and it seems nobody will be answering Customer Service emails until she gets back.

I have until December to gather more info and make a decision.

Laura, how long have you had yours?

Lauren, I got mine early last summer (2016)....it was not big at all when I got it from Stan, but healthy. It is now at least 6" taller than me (5'4") but not particularly bushy. I can try to take a pic for you tomorrow of the whole tree, but it is hard because it is surrounded by other trees and it is hard to tell what's what.

Denise

I would get a graft from Stan to day and be confident that you have a better tree than Fourwinds will ever produce. If you use my system of lighting in the winter you will get 2 years growth out of your tree in one winter. The choice seems easy to me. Stan is the Man

I would like a Meiwa kumquat on FD The growing rates of both the roots and scion match and should grow well together.

Steve

Silica

Very well put and correct. It is much easier to heat and illuminate a small-(grows-to)-medium size than to heat and illuminate medium-(grows-to)-larger tree so I start small-medium then outside into ground. An in ground tree grows much better than a potted tree.

These 2 seed grown Miewa kumquats spent about 3 of their 9 months 10 days under lights.

Steve

Silica, I followed your advice last winter. You said you use lights from about 6am to 10pm during winter. I did close to that ~ 6:30 - 9:30 or so. My trees definitely grew over winter. The growth was not as perfect as the growth outside, but at least they did have much trouble with leaf drop (not because of lighting anyways - mites are another story)...

Insects are a problem in winter. Mites are the big one. To many plants packed into a small area breed problems. My bucket lights work really well for containing mites to one tree. I also spread my trees to different areas of my house. It involve different timers for each group of trees.

Steve

Sammers, You are correct about the FW rootstock. I was poking around the website and found this:

"Size at maturity depends on the variety of citrus, whether it is propagated as a Dwarf or a Standard, and how much space is provided. Our True Dwarf citrus are most easily kept small when grown in containers. When planted in the ground they will tend to grow larger than their potted counterparts, and may more appropriately be called “Semi-Dwarf.”,

That is certainly some creative marketing right there. "We sell dwarf trees and by dwarf we mean that we are betting on that you are going to be growing it in a container, and the container naturally dwarfing it. But if you plant it in the ground, it's ok, it's only going to grow a "bit" bigger than we indicated. Its not technically lying since it still has dwarf in the name." I also feel like I must not understand the meaning of "true dwarf". While I am not surprised it certainly makes the advertizing misleading. When I first started I was dead set on only have dwarf trees and that's WHY I bought from FW. Now I know better but it still sucks that as a consumer you can't take what their website indicates at face value and have to dig around for the fine print.

Sammers, I will be honest with you. I felt a bit betrayed by what was posted regarding sizing. In the gardening world of fruit trees, there are 3 sizes: dwarf, semi-dwarf and standard. When a company advertises dwarf, I expect to receive a dwarf sized tree when it's mature no matter where it's planted. Dwarf was developed to save space for the home grower.

I understand what you’re saying Denise, but you are asking them to go against nature to some extent. How large a tree will grow is dependent on many factors, rootstock being only one of those factors. Citrus, like all trees, have different growth habits and sizes. Calamondin trees and Meyers are more bushy, while grapefruit trees can get much larger. Simply changing rootstock is not enough. I have a Meyer lemon that is several years older than my tangelo and the tangelo dwarfs it. I don’t know what rootstock the Meyer is on though. FW can’t be expected to deliver miracles when it comes to this because Mother Nature has more control ;-). If you want smaller trees, then I would suggest sticking to those varieties that are naturally more compact.

Here is a link to the FW website...a nice chart that may help you decide which would be best for you in terms of size, etc...

https://www.fourwindsgrowers.com/our-citrus-trees/citrus-variety-info-chart.html

Just think bonsai. Have you ever seen a 100 year old oak tree as a bonsai? And they surely are not on any dwarfing root stock. We have the control to keep the tree at any size we want or is easy to manage. This is where pruning becomes important. I admit, not really my strongest yet.

Too late now for charts. I have most of the trees I want to have. lol. I am familiar with the chart and referred to it many times for other things. When people see "dwarf" anywhere, common sense is that they expect a tree to top out around 6-8' max., and I see there is a disclaimer on the chart that if the tree is containerized and pruned, the tree can be maintained at that heighth.

Here is my background. I have been growing citrus since 1984 or so and always believed dwarf trees topped out around 6-10' depending on pruning habits. I have grown semi-dwarf stone fruit trees in CA and they were about 12-14' tall with pruning. Computers were not invented then so I believed whatever FW advertised because I had no way to dispute it at the time. No Google when computers first came out either. To find out 40 or so years later that the root stock used by FW is not a true dwarf as advertised is shocking. My trees from them have always been small. The first group I had were either in wine barrels or planted in the ground and they grew slowly. After planting some in the ground, a few years later I moved to another house so I really did not get to see the inground trees mature. I took my containerized trees with me to the new house and 3 years later again had to move across country and left those trees behind. At no time, did I ever have a tree get older than 5-6 years old due to moves. Because of short-term ownership of FW trees, I believed all my trees would remain small.

The Owari and Meyer I currently have are 3.5' tall x 4' wide right now. They are 15 and rarely pruned. After joining citrus forums and FB pages for the past 6 months, I see now that I have not been caring for them as I should by changing out the soil annually or fertilizing monthly. I did fertilize quarterly as commonly instructed. I am embarrassed by that but it wasn't done intentionally, just out of ignorance. Now that I see everybody else's trees in comparison, I feel bad for my trees and have seen the errors of my ways.

I am 57 years old and my husband is 60. We do not want to deal with huge trees in large containers because of the weight factor as the trees mature and the trees need to come inside the house for the winter. The more you prune, either the canopy or the roots, the trunk stem is going to get bigger and heavier with age. That is my major concern. The majority of the members here are young and have a long time ahead of them before walking in our shoes. Dummy me didn't check the tags when buying from the big box stores either. I just focused on the varieties available. lol. That is the citrus addiction which I suffer from. lol. Anyway, that is why I am so focused on root stock now. Hindsight is always 20-20. I really need a dwarf root stock to continue enjoying this hobby as I go further into my senior years.

Suzanne, I was composing this as you posted. No I have not seen a 100 year old bonsai.

I have the opposite problem from Denise. I'm concerned about my trees staying too small. I grow only in containers, but I'd like them to produce plenty of fruit and not just be ornamental. I thought I needed dwarf varieties because of the containers, but the more I read, it seems I should be looking for semidwarf or standard varieties, if I want larger containerized trees. I also I am inclined towards taller more tree-like varieties. My Meyers and key lime laugh in my face as I type that.

Any suggestions of suppliers, rootstock, varieties, etc for someone looking for vigorous growing/less bushy varieties? I'm specifically interested in expanding my lemons and mandarins (currently have Meyer, NZL, tango, miho Satsuma)

Also, does Stan offer NZL not grafted? Just standard or it's own rootstock? Based on some of the comments above, it kind of sounded like that. Not that I need another one! I should give my FW's tree a chance before I order one from Stan.

Alanna the dwarf trees are getting big and are as productive as the standard sized trees. You can let them grow in any form you like. the reason some are grafted on dwarfing rootstock it to get more fruits in smaller footprints. Ifyou want to have them grown in container and want them big, consider you have to handle them as season changes. And you have to have room in your house. Some of my trees are 7 to 8 years old and they are getting really heavy. My meyer and one of the ST Feminello needed a lot of coaxing to get them through the door. How old is your Meyer?

Hi Susanne,

I brought all of my guys in on Monday night and spent a while trying to make room for everyone (only to bring them back out yesterday). I thought about posting a picture of how silly it looked because we only have 4 windows in our apartment, but then I saw your pictures. I was just admiring all of your trees.

I've had my Meyer for 2 years, so I'm guessing about 4 years old. It's so teeny tiny. I think I'm not going to let it fruit next year to encourage more root/leaf growth. This one will always be bushy. I have another tiny Meyer that it just a single stem that I hope to be able to train into a tree someday.

My key lime on the other hand is a monster and I don't even know how to begin pruning it. There's no way this one will ever be a tree. It's a bush through and through. That's why I'm curious which varieties are more likely to grow upright and tree-like.

That my NZL in the background. It's my tallest tree, but needs to fill out quite a bit.

I cant even imagine a day when they'll be huge and heavy. My trees are such little babies.

Tango

Miho Satsuma

Persian lime

Are there varieties (lemon/mandarin/lime) that are more likely to have an upright growth habit? Are there varieties that are much more productive? Should I be looking for semidwarf or standard rootstock if I want my trees to grow faster? If so, which supplies should I look at?

I know they'll get bigger eventually...hopefully by then, I'll have a house with more room with a possible greenhouse or sunroom. In the mean time, I'm going to pack in as many little trees as I can.

Alanna your trees look beautiful and I'm sure they will grow up to be big trees. Same time next year check this picture and you will be amazed how much they grew :)

Alanna Migliacci If you go to the FW website, there is a chart that gives you the mature sizes of the trees they sell planted in the ground and in a container. www.fourwindsgrowers.com/our-citrus-trees/citrus-variety-info-chart.html  The trees will grow as large as you allow them to depending on the container you keep them in.

You mention your trees are small. Did you order the entry level size trees from FW? If so, you ordered one year old trees. Have patience and you will be rewarded. Give them lots of sun, good soil and fertilize monthly and you may be sorry you wanted a large tree. lol.

Hi Denise, a group buy sounds like a really great idea to me! Doesn't larger purchases help the seller save more money too? Maybe it actually won't when it comes to trees though... Talking about a NZL is so tempting and I really want one since I prefer my lemons to taste like lemonade :) but my citrus collection so far consists only of a Meyer lemon. I would definitely add some type of mandarin or fresh eating citrus as my second tree before adding another lemon! Let me know how the idea of the group buy goes. If it falls through, I would probably purchase from him anyway. I've heard good things about his trees and I don't mind tending to healthy 1 gallon starters at all

btw, does anyone have experience of how much shipping usually costs for one of his 1 gallon citrus trees?

I am going to hang in there with Four Winds Growers and try to get a NZL in the spring.