Seagrass, I'm so sorry your dog isn't doing well. I'm not sure if your veterinarian has talked with you about some of the concerns with dogs who are 5 years of age and older and start getting seizures. The major concern would be that it's not just epilepsy, but due to a serious underlying disorder. Unfortunately, the biggest concern in a dog this age would be a brain tumor. I'd really encourage you to visit the neurologist with your dog, to find out if there's an underlying cause to the seizures. If so, they may be able to offer treatment or help you to get the seizures under better control. At the very least, you'll know what's going on and that could help you make decisions.

I know that’s a hard one Seagrass especially because we love our pets so much. The idea of a Specialist can be overwhelming for a number of reasons but I’m so glad he’s actually discussed it with you already, unfortunately ours didn’t.

I had to take a cat I’d had since she was born (19 years) to a thyroid specialist once. After years of illness, our vet suggested the specialist for thyroid surgery. When I took her there for the consult, the Specialist knew instantly that her thyroid was fine and she didn’t need the surgery. He had a diagnosis for me though and after taking some xrays he very gently showed me that she had cancer. It broke my heart.

She’d been sick for years and we spent several 1,000 on nothing but a misdiagnosis. The specialist was 350.00 for the consult and x rays and it is infuriating to know that she didn’t offer the option of a specialist sooner. My point is, is that there are many things that could be causing the seizures and you may only need one visit to get an accurate diagnosis and treatment plan. In the big scheme of things, that could actually save you a lot of money (and heartache) moving forward with your dogs care. It’s obvious that you adore your girl and I’m sure you’ll make the right decision for your situation. I hope you keep us posted on how she’s doing, especially during your trip.

I have a family member who is veterinary specialist in a large-ish referral practice. About 1/3 or their business is patients referred too late, or not at all but brought in by their humans, who were misdiagnosed or mistreated by a vet in general practice who didn't know what they were doing. It's frustrating for them, especially for conditions as lukki describes that might have been treatable if handled sooner by someone who truly knew what they were doing.

This isn't a vet-endemic problem. Human physicians in primary care practices often do the same thing, waiting too long to refer to a specialist thinking they know and can handle a (often misdiagnosed) problem. This happens even in populated areas where specialists are available and easy to get to, though it happens less for docs in large group practices.

Same is true for dentists in general practice who often perform procedures that are beyond their level of competence or experience.

Elmer we had a long conversation here on the KT one time where I advised people to understand medical/vet care by doing a little research, and you took the position that was unnecessary, that people should just trust their vets/doctors.

About 1/3 or their business is patients referred too late, or not at all but brought in by their humans, who were misdiagnosed or mistreated by a vet in general practice who didn't know what they were doing.

I feel that being a responsible pet owner means understanding enough of what is going on to where you realize that the person treating your pet doesn't have a clue.

"Just this year developed a major seizure disorder," is concerning.

What will you do if the dog has a seizure while you are driving? What if the seizure does not stop within the usual time frame?

Moonie! I couldn’t have said it better. That’s how Ellie knows the word cuddle!!!

“When necessary, like belly rubs, I get down on the floor to do so.”

Elmer Elmer Elmer....How fun is “when necessary”? LOL. And if you gave your dog a spot on the sofa, you wouldn’t have to get on the floor! All I have to say is tummy rub and she is happy to give me access while laying next to me.

I do get where you’re coming from though and agree that sadly, many people will either get the wrong breed of dog for their lifestyle or when they shouldn’t have a dog at all. It’s frustrating when a pet isn’t taught good behavior or worse isn’t cared for properly because it’s the dog that suffers in the end. We have several neighbors who literally let their dogs run amuk unsupervised. Two often cross our busy road (that’s also on a curve) to come on our property. Others are outside barking non-stop and digging in other yards; all of them are basically ignored by their owners. It’s sad.

When necessary is every time she turns on her back or I decide I want to do it anyway - many, many times through the day. My point was the couch ban doesn't limit affection at all. Maybe the day will come when I can't easily get down on the floor but I'm not near that point now.

Shepherds shed profusely all year, even in my mild weather location. Having hair on furniture to control is unreasonable, having it all over the floors is enough to deal with. She's not allowed at all in my best car, same reason.

Lucille, I'm not sure your take away from that earlier discussion (which I don't remember) captures my point of view. If you said people should do their own research, I would have responded that untrained people shouldn't fool themselves into thinking that taking a walk on the internet is going to lead them to useful information or even information they may understand, to assess their provider. I would have said doing that was foolhardy, not that it was unnecessary.

Whether the concern is human medicine or veterinary medicine or law or financial advice or anything else, coming to the conclusion that a professional is not competently dealing with a problem is very hard. I try to learn from and seek advice from experts I know. I also like dealing with large organizations of good reputation where many sets of eyes are looking at the question or problem. For people without access to either of these things I rely on, I'm not sure what the answer is. But it's not doing Google searches.

I tend to get second opinions or take the problem to a specialist, perhaps prematurely, when I've thought there was a problem I couldn't get good advice from my sources to make a certain assessment of. That works for me.

“I feel that ben a responsible pet owner means understanding enough of what is going on to where you realize that the person treating your pet doesn't have a clue.”

Lucille, I’m not sure where this comment is directed to, I’m hoping its general and not pointed to any one person including myself.

There are a lot of people who love their pets and provide them with a very loving home but for whatever reason are limited with their knowledge about their *medical care. That’s why people turn to a Vet for help; trusting in one’s Vet in no way makes someone irresponsible. Just like not everyone can afford the same level of medical care for their pet, if the intent to give the best you can afford is there, that’s what matters. Everyone’s situation is different.

*ETA: added medical for more clarity.

Elmer, why didn’t you say that in the first place!!! Moonie’s right, you need to loosen up and let your hair down. Ha Ha!

If you hadn’t noticed already, you’re a man choosing to participate in a room full of women. And women of all different ages to boot! We communicate differently from men, that’s why you’re always misunderstood and technically in trouble.

Of course, lukki. Those differences are ALWAYS very apparent and obvious to me.

In trouble? No. Misunderstood, sure.

Lucille, I’m not sure where this comment is directed to, I’m hoping its general

A general comment and my opinion, that pet owners should take the time to know a little about their pet especially any unusual conditions.

Elmer, yes its a shame your friends didnt recognize the need of training for that dog. And I can understand the need with German shepherds if you want the best behavior possible. We've always had Goldens, who live to please so that you'll cater to their every whim. :)

One of our current dogs is a hound mix. She has a very strong prey drive but it's mostly under control. She could possibly have benefited with some training regarding barking when she sees wildlife. We take her on the boat a lot. Yes, the dogs also wear PFD's. I love seeing the wildlife on shore but try to spot them before she does. It's funny how she will stifle her barks with yawning. It's a coping mechanism. Her behavior is acceptable to us, and amusing sometimes.

Lucille, i agree that one needs to recognize when the vet is not solving a problem, and seek another source, possibly a specialist.

Elmer, hair on furniture??? lol. We had Goldens, it was a major problem, which is why my husband developed an addiction to the vacuum cleaner. Guess we all have different tolerance levels.

Lukki, is your lab a huge shedder? Our lab mix sheds as much as the goldens did, just shorter hairs. :)

His pets aren't perfect.... the dog sheds.

Thanks Sherry. Yes, I try to get information from people who know more than I do (and there are lots of them) so that I can make better decisions and get better outcomes. It works, try it.

Well, with exception of a few responses, I have really taken a lot away from this post. My girl had a 3rd seizure this afternoon and took a long time to come out of it and get her legs back. So DH & I have decided to seek referral to the vet neurologist. Monday is a holiday. We'll contact our vet Tuesday. In the meantime, we have accesss to emergency vet care about 1/2 hour from our house.

Thanks to all again from the bottom of my heart - Bella sends kisses...

seagrass

Oh no! I'll be keeping good thoughts for Bella.

Double check the prescription to make sure there wasnt a mistake. That happened to us! It was the vets office mistake!

seagrass, you won't regret going to a specialist. I prefer specialists connected to a vet school - some of the new chain specialty clinics seem to just try to milk people for more money for just about everything. But sometimes, that's the only choice for various reasons.

At one time, we had Golden's. We did not allow our Golden's up on the furniture - they were very hairy, often dirty, and they have an oily undercoat. They would have ruined the furniture very quickly. We loved them dearly and they got lots of love and affection.

My Cavaliers are something entirely different. They were bred to be lap dogs and that's where they are happiest and where they belong. If someone doesn't want a dog on the furniture, a Cavalier would not be a good choice for them or their Cavalier. My Cavaliers have always slept with me - Shimmer sleeps with her bottom under the covers, and her head on a fancy boudoir pillow, between the bed pillows. No, she's not at ALL spoilt!

As to training, well it depends on the dog and it depends on the person training the dog. A longtime friend in Cavaliers, had a dog she could walk on the sidewalks of NYC without a leash. He achieved the highest rating in obedience any Cavalier ever had (perhaps his record still holds). Piccadilly was an amazing dog and his owner devoted hours to training him. I never walk my Cavaliers off-lead as I've had a couple of big scares that, luckily ended well, but made me realize that Cavaliers are perpetual babies/toddlers and simply are not reliable, no matter how well trained they are. My dogs are trained to wait to be invited up on furniture and on the bed (this establishes that I own these things and are allowing them to share them with me, not the opposite). They never get out of the crate in my car without my permission. They never bolt out of a door. I still don't trust them off-lead.

I also know of a breeder/owner of an Irish wolfhound that was beautifully trained - shown in both confirmation and obedience. The dog was with a handler for a show, and there was a wreck in the parking lot near where she was trying to load the wolfhound into his crate in her van. The noise was deafening and terrified the wolfhound. He took off and was never found, even with heroic efforts being made. With a terrified dog, all bets are off.

All of my best wishes for you and Bella.

Elmer - she just had a brief 4th. It's our wedding anniversary but we cancelled our dinner reservations. I'm afraid to leave her alone.

It sounds like you guys are really having a tough time today, seagrass. :(

Did you receive any guidelines so far as when to seek immediate care for Bella so far as the seizures? It's generally recommended to seek immediate care when there's been three or more seizures in a day. I'm so sorry this is happening and to have it be your anniversary too...

My dog howled, whined and whimpered through his seizures. So heartbreaking. Do you have an emergency vet nearby?

I like most dogs (on average) better than I like most people (on average). They're usually more deserving of respect and love, on average. I'm suffering with you at a distance, I'm so very sorry. Really hope for a manageable outcome.

Seagrass - So sorry to hear what you and Bella are going through today.

She's our 3rd Aussie. It was painful lose the first 2, but they lived to the ripe old age of 12-13. Bella won't be 6 until mid November. So, with the collective wisdom of the people here on KT we are going to have her evaluated by a specialist. Again - you are all awesome.

seagrass

Agree with Angko's comment. Had excellent experiences at Veterinary Teaching Hospitals, the care is outstanding and the fees are very reasonable. Do you have a Veterinary college nearby?

https://www.avma.org/ProfessionalDevelopment/Education/Accreditation/Colleges/Pages/colleges-accredited.aspx

Tuft's Veterinary School outside of Boston, metro west area. We live on outer Cape Cod - 45 minutes to one of the bridges over the canal and then onward to civilization. I had serious health issues last year and was hospitalized in Boston for over a week. With traffic, one way from our home there is 3 hours.

Keep in mind that 95% or more of the specialists in referral practices did their residencies at Vet Schools. When you go to a vet school, you'll mostly be dealing with residents in training, supervised but often very loosely so by faculty. No problem with that, you'll get good care, but the specialists who have passed their boards (which not all do, passing is not perfunctory or automatic) and are now in private practice have completed their training, passed those rigorous exams and have years of experience to add to their capabilities. A specialist at larger and more prominent private practices (not VCA locations) are the best and brightest.

Edit to add - vet school services are sometimes a bit less expensive but not necessarily.

I won't dispute your impressions but I think you can reflect on your own training to understand that the view from the outside can be different from the view from the inside. Faculty tend to be experts in their research fields but do not see and treat the volume and diversity of cases that practitioners in quality, busy private practices see. That's as per my inside source.

I've been to specialists at two vet schools. Yes, it is an all day affair. First, the animal is seen by a vet student. Then, a resident may also see the pet. Finally, the professor, a VERY experienced specialists, will see the pet. It is a teaching clinic so that's why one must go through this process! But one will see the very best out there. I've found that vets and human MD's in academic medicine take more time with a patient, and are far more knowledgable.

I've had cardiologists and internal medicine specialists at specialty clinics insist on a full cardiac workup on my dogs to check them for MVD, a condition very common in my breed (Cavaliers). A cardiologist at a teaching hospital, will want to take a heart x-ray as a baseline to check for enlargement now and in the future, and will use auscultation to listen for a murmur. They only recommend a color doppler if the dog is a valuable breeding animal, to be absolutely certain about the condition before spaying/neutering.

Why the more expensive approach? Simple - color doppler machines cost a bloody fortune and they must pay their way. Also, they come to rely more on machines than clinical skills. A board certified veterinary cardiologist, in a quiet room with a VERY expensive stethoscope can hear a murmur very well, and hears so many, so often, he can easily grade it.

I am basing this on the recommendations of the veterinary cardiologists in the US and the UK who did the original studies on MVD (mitral valve disease) in Cavaliers. We had an International Heart Symposium at our breed club's national show several years ago, and they were asked to recommend a protocol for testing that met several criteria:

1 - not too expensive and easily done at a dog show heart clinic

2 - would identify low grade murmurs but was not so sensitive that virtually our entire breeding stock would be eliminated. I once had a cardiologist clear a 13 yr old Cavalier and when she discovered his age, she listened and listened and listened until she could detect a very faint murmur. As the doctors at the Symposium said, that's not the purpose.

Auscultation won out and that is why we have boarded veterinary cardiologists at our clinics, and most often they come from nearby vet schools.

Awe, Seagrass, I’m so sorry this is happening with Bella. I hope hope hope that whatever is going on can be diagnosed and managed. I’ll certainly keep you and yours in my thoughts.

Moonie, Our lab does shed, alot. Between a good diet and consistent grooming, I’ve managed to keep it at a minimum though. I keep a rubber Kong brush by my chair outside and brush her for a few minutes when she goes outside to potty. I brush, then we play chuck it so she can shake out her coat and burn some of her energy.

I had a Golden once too, paired with a German Shepard, both were really wonderful dogs. I opted for a Lab this round thinking she would require less grooming and in some ways she does, but Labs also don’t have the skin issues my Golden had during the summer months.

Labs, like Golden’s play hard and can be oily too. We keep a blanket laid out over Ellie’s spot on the sofa. Out of all of our furniture, it’s the only place she’s ever attempted to sit as if she knew it was just for her.

We have a ton of wild life but oddly, she’s never been one to chase or bark at it.

Sherry, are you a troll? I seem to see a lot of nasty comments aimed at Elmer by new names with no history. If it’s you, stop it. It really has no place here.

If you’ve been here a while than you should know how well this group tends to get along even when it means that on occassion one of us has to bite our tongue. Granted, some days we get along better than others but we don’t just pop into a thread, single someone out, call names and chastize them. If you’re going to participate by adding something to the subject matter great, but if you’re not happy with the conversation and have nothing positive to add, than please refrain.

No wonder you're upset, Sherry, you've completely misunderstood and misread my comments. What you're suggesting I said, I didn't say at all, not directly and not indirectly. I don't believe I once used the word "leash" (other than to cite a book title) nor talk about off-leash sessions at rest stops or elsewhere.

Get mad whenever you want but if you want to criticize, it's better to first know what you're talking about. I don't think you did that in this case.

I know what my ideas were and what I said. Funny how in the face of my additional thoughts, you want to cling to the wrong impression all the same. Do you normally do that? Readers can reach their own conclusions, it doesn't matter to me at all.

No Sherry, I didn’t read the thread you posted because it’s irrelivant to what I’m trying to say. Regardless of what you feel it’s related to, your commentary, in this thread really was inappropriate and uncalled for.

It’s one thing to challenge someone’s opinions or wording, that’s part of the experience but it’s important that we all do it in a way that is still respectful to each other and I believe you can understand that.

ETA: maybe it’s time to let it go???

There's clearly a reading comprehension issue going on here. The "old dog" is stated in the first post to be 6 years old.

Many people leave their pets safely with good boarding operators. We do every few months when we travel, our dog loves it there, she gets excited when we approach the place. But of course, boarding isn't suitable for a very long period or for a dog with a not-yet controlled health issue. We're never gone for more than one month at a time and it's usually just 2-3 weeks. For longer, we'd need to arrange for her to stay with a friend. Many would volunteer.

If you choose to go nowhere because you need to take your dog along, that's your choice. I wouldn't think of doing that for a second, that's nuts, and most people I know would agree with me and not with you.

No, my dog is not old. She will be 6 years old next month. Aussies typically live to be 12-13 years. Our first 2 did. And Elmer is right - boarding is not suitable for a dog with a not-yet controlled health issue. I've come out of two years of very serious, life threatening medical issues. We want to travel now and enjoy ourselves. We are also devoted to this dog of ours. So we need to work this out.

How has she done since your last post earlier today Seagrass? Any more episodes?

yes, lukkiirish - more episodes but she's calm now. and sleeping. So we'll see what the future brings. I can't express my gratitude enough to the support of the people on this forum.

When making a diagnosis, it is often very helpful to have a log if the seizures.

Some good information:

http://www.ashgi.org/home-page/genetics-info/epilepsy-other-neurological-issues/epilepsy/canine-epilepsy

Seagrass, I’m so sorry, I can’t even imagine how scary this must be for you all. Mdln, is right, logging is a really good idea. I’m glad she’s calm for now and it lasts through the night. Hopefully you won’t need it, but do you have a 24 hour emergency clinic in your area available? If you do, you may want to call them to see if they have what’s needed to treat the seizures. The emergency clinic by us has emergency services and specialists all under one roof. Are you by any chance close to Waltham? They have a center there, it’s called BluePearl. They are popular with the vets in our area for after hour services.

BluePearl, Waltham

WE're over 2 hours from Walthham - more like 3. There is a 24/7 emergency clinic about 1/2 hour from us if needed. Thanks to all again.

Seagrass, my toy poodle that has seizures is 13. I got her when she was about 18 months and she's had seizures her entire life. It is assumed it's epilepsy. The phenobarb controls them for the most part but she does have "break thru" seizures but they are usually pretty light compared to when she first started having them. She is always hungry but she's not lethargic and her personality hasn't changed.

I'm so glad you're going to the specialist. I think the phenobarb should've done much more to control the seizures than it sounds like it has been doing.

And, just an FYI for someone who mentioned it earlier, phenobarbital is a controlled substance and cannot be purchased thru any online pet med sites.

Very long story short: I had difficulty with a vet who claimed he could not call in a prescription to a pharmacy out of the state he is registered to practice and prescribe in. I don't know whether that is true or not, but that's what he said. So you might want to have a conversation with your vet about how to get a prescription filled out of state.

You might want to get a supply of Chux pads for the trip. I use washable bed liners at home, but wouldn't want to use them on the road.

We had a bad night with her but she's ok so far today. Will be calling our vet tomorrow. As far as the meds, if we are able to travel with her, we have been able to get refills although yes - we have to take a paper script to the pharmacy for the first dose. So if we transfer her prescriptions to CVS with 2 or 3 refills designated we're hoping to be able to get them filled out of state. I will have to talk to a pharmacist at our CVS and ask some questions about that. It's an issue for me, as well.

graywings, my vet in KY can call in a prescription to a pharmacy in MA for my pets. Perhaps it depends on the state.

It used to be that there were many states that would only allow prescriptions from prescribers who were licensed within the state in which the prescription was to be filled. Most of these states have removed this restriction, but possibly not all. But, prescriptions from an out of state prescriber for controlled substances are likely to be viewed with suspicion and so perhaps refused (whether written or called in). The solution, as stated by seagrass, is to take the original prescription to a pharmacy that has branches across the US. When you need a refill, it can be transferred from the original pharmacy to a different branch of that pharmacy, in the other state. It's never a bad idea to talk to the pharmacist at your local pharmacy about your travel plans before you go, just to make sure there won't be any problems.