Debby, I guess you know best. Didn't mean to step on your toes. but that sounds ludicrous, one year for murder.

(Canada, population 35,000,00 has a murder rate of 1.68/100,000. US, pop 325,000,000 has a murder rate of 4.88/100,000.)

Yet another stat for which Canada trails the US. They could catch up by modeling their gun laws (or repealing sections) so that they would more closely resemble ours. Sounds like the NRA isn't as active there as here. Maybe we could get American NRA lobbyists and supporters to move there?

ˆˆˆˆNo thanksˆˆˆˆ

Oh Elmer J Fudd - thanks but no thanks. But thank-you for thinking of us. :)

When my son kept telling me he was looking for jobs but just wasn't getting any call backs I called BS. The deal was he could help me around the house to earn his keep until he found a job and then once he found a job he'd pay rent. Well I guess he thought if he kept helping me around the house and telling me he couldn't find a job life would be golden.

I decided one day to go online and apply online for jobs for him shocker of all shockers he got a call back within a day or 2. I went upstairs handed him his appointment time and said have fun and good luck at the interview. He came home hired. Started out working 32 hours a week. Got some money in his pocket, started paying me rent and his gas and other expenses found out 32 hours a week didn't leave him much money so he asked for a full time position at the same company with overtime options. The company also pays for his schooling, stock options, 401k, health insurance so on and so forth. He is now taking advantage of the paid schooling as well because right now he is in a labor position there and knows he isn't getting any younger and he loves the company he works for and wants to move up the ladder and knows he can't do that without an education. So for me I got really lucky that everything worked out great for him. I just had to do a push by doing it myself lol.

Don't tell me you can't find a job. I love seeing him now understand the want to better himself and move up the ladder at his job. He takes any training they offer him and any and all overtime. He found out it is much better to have to pay mom rent and have money in your pocket and the more you work and the more effort you put into your work the more money you make. He also on his days off still helps me around the house by doing things I can not do myself.

Sometimes, I imagine fear of rejection could paralyze a person who was not used to putting himself in the arena very often. Aprile helped short-circuit that problem for her son.

My hubby and I plan on selling the house and moving into a small apartment so no one can come back. LOL

I read the first 20-30 responses and scrolled all the way down here to see if Pennydesign ever answered this question:

How old is your son?

I see it has been asked more than once.

As another post mentioned, I think this situation is different based on if the son is 19, or 29, or (yikes) 39.

I think Penny bowed out as the direction of this thread was not what she hoped for.

Aprile -- my uncle did this years ago -- his son had a good degree but was dilly dallying about job hunting. So uncle wrote letter to several appropriate firms as if he were the applicant. Son got an interview, got the job, eventually became manager for the Western United States division of his company.

Elmer, you're kidding me about our gun laws. Right? Seriously? Very few countries are tougher than we are as to whom can own a handgun. While we have more guns per capita than the US does, our murder rate with a gun is WAAAAAAAAY lower. We aren't trigger happy here.

Sorry for changing the subject here.. ;)

Wouldn't population come into the equation here? What Google tells me is Canada is much larger than the US in land mass, but only has one tenth the human population compared to the US.

"I couldn't possibly disagree with this more, it's poor advice. This sounds like a rubber stamp rationalization to distribute to those unwilling to dig down deep and work hard to be successful with parenting challenges. For someone who's indifferent, "too busy" or passively expecting an undesired outcome, and unwilling to do anything about it before it's too late, then that's what you'll get."

Mr. Fudd, I couldn't possibly disagree with you more.

I have friends that adopted a boy and girl as infants. This school teacher and businessman brought their kids up perfectly, but when the kids became adolescents, the trailer-trash gene reared its ugly head. Drugs, crime, disappointment and heartbreak were all they got despite doing everything right. They dug beyond "deep", believe me.

I spoke to him the other day and he told me his only real regret in life was adopting those kids.

Penny doesn't state how old the boy/man is, is he 18 or 28? Is he a full time college student? I think this matters. Sometimes college is so stressful that it's hard for them to work also. If he's still very young like 18, he probably hasn't realized that Mom and Dad aren't going to support him for his whole life. You just have to put your foot down and take away your financial support and care taking support. Don't cook for him or clean up after him...he's grown, he can do that for himself! If he wants new things, well, he has to work for them.

Joseph, I agree with you and have seen it too. Adoption can turn out to be heartbreaking for the parents.

"Trailer trash genes"? "Perfect parents"? Oh, please.

People have children -- and adopt them -- for all kinds of good and bad reasons. One bad reason is because they want to parent babies and young, malleable children, but not adolescents.

How convenient to have that ridiculous 'genetic' thing to blame. Gosh, didn't your perfect couple vet the infants' backgrounds to weed out 'trash'?

Did they adopt through an agency, privately, or black market?

"I spoke to him the other day and he told me his only real regret in life was adopting those kids."

Those poor kids - sorry your friends didn't get the perfect kids they paid for.

Adoption is not the easy, peasy panacea that the adoption industry would have you believe. It is actually pretty inhumane to remove an infant from his or her biological mother (and family) and plunk them down into a group of genetic strangers. The stress on their little psyches is lifelong, even if they are able to adapt to a family they are not related to. And trying to become the perfect children for adoptive parents very often requires creating a false self, because the real self doesn't "fit" in the family. It's a very complicated and complex issue that society just glosses over, because if people want kids, they feel entitled to them and sometimes adoption is the result without much concern to what it does to the kids.

There are exceptions, of course, and wonderful loving adoptive families. But anyone who would say they regretted adopting their children, shouldn't have gotten them in the first place. Imagine a parent who gave birth saying they regretted their children? Unbelievable.

"Imagine a parent who gave birth saying they regretted their children? "

That happens more often than you may think. Any number of people are not cut out for parenthood, both natural or acquired/adopted, for any number of reasons. But it is 'expected' in our culture and it is not until the kids are toddlers or older they figure that out and then what to do? You can't exactly take them back or return them.

We require training and testing for all manner of less consequential activities but it seems to be accepted that parenting is a natural situation anyone should be properly equiped/skilled to handle with ease. It just ain't so :-)) So many, many kids grow up with uninterested, inattentive, completely unloving or disengaged and/or downright abusive parents.

Not saying this applies to anyone here but it does exist with alarming frequency. I can think of numerous situations where this applies even within my own circle of acquaintances.

"Not saying this applies to anyone here but it does exist with alarming
frequency. I can think of numerous situations where this applies even
within my own circle of acquaintances."

Ditto. And I know plenty more who are loving and engaged but still completely unequipped when it comes to parenting them.

Debby Ab, I believe Elmer was being sarcastic.

I don't know if this person regrets adopting his kids, but an anesthesiologist I used to work work with adopted 3 kids. 2 were biological twins. One twin became class valedictorian and on to a college, while the other tried college, music school, tech school, and more and more drugs. When son was home this summer he touched base with the bad seed, who was drugged up on xanax and falling asleep for their coffee date. So, I dunno, maybe genetics has something to do with it? The kids knew their bio mom was an addict, so a self-fulfilling prophesy?

I think lots of people deal with pain and trauma differently. Some become "perfect" people, some turn to drugs or alcohol or both. Who knows if there is a genetic component to either, but likely so. I think many adoptive parents are ill equipped to help their adopted kids navigate through the storm of emotions being separated from your biological family evokes (regardless of who they are).

I know that many parents aren't cut out for parenthood and perhaps don't know it until they become parents. Maybe they would say they wish they hadn't become parents, but not sure how many would say they regret their children. My take away from the comment "regretted adopting 'those' kids" was that those particular kids were the problem. Not his entrance into parenthood. If only the kids had been "better". Ugh.

I think there's a lot more behind what a child becomes than parenting. My brother and I had the same parents and grew up completely differently. I excelled academically, never got in trouble. He dropped out of high school, couldn't hold onto a job, experimented with drugs, etc. My parents tried everything with him and nothing worked. We are within 2 years of each other so there's no dramatic difference in how we were raised. We were just programmed differently. He's super laid back and doesn't worry and I'm high strung and super anxious all the time.

Luckily he turned things around once he married and had kids and now he's doing very well.

This sickens me

Every human is different in so many ways, everyone knows that. It's unreasonable to expect any kind of inherent homogeneity among siblings, whether biologically related or not. Better to assume they're different and that an approach that works with one may not work with another.

Yes, the risk of addiction is inherited. It's easy to diagnose and there are ways to try to deal with it. Does one throw up ones' hands and walk away when a kid has such a problem, even into the adult years? What if a kid is less than "perfect" because they do poorly in school, or has a problem with laziness or lack of motivation? How about difficulty getting along with others? How about a lack of interest in pursuing responsible behavior? How about kids who have kids at too young an age, or have kids and don't provide for them? And on and on. They remain your kids, you remain their parent, the job shouldn't end when there is a need.

I have three, all are very different from one another, and the trial and error to find what worked to deal with each one for a given problem or situation was exhausting. Doing less or doing nothing would have been much easier, that's what far too many parents would have done. I saw it too many times among friends and the parents of their friends, to not realize that the effort expended and interest for parenting can vary widely from one parent to another. Many do far too little and the results often reflect that. That's what this thread is all about, as far as I'm concerned.

Joseph..if your friends only regret in life was adopting those kids...well that statement speaks volumes about that person. I suspect that person gave up the parenting long before those kids got into drugs and crime...probably gave up at the first hint of being imperfect...human...a child.

Oly, the reason why I understand what Joseph was saying about his friend is that I have also seen this situation twice.

I am not talking about people who wanted perfect children. But, if you adopt and the children seem to repeat the patterns of the biological parents, then......

My example. Adopted daughter's biological mom was heavy into drugs, she had many children with different fathers. This was known. Daughter winds up doing the exact same thing. How is this? Her adoptive parents are hard-working, sensible, middle-class people. No drug taking and drinking.

A similar thing happened in the second family. Two professors adopted a child and had one biologically. The adopted child again became a heavy drug user. Not her sibling.

While I agree that of course there are many many factors of the why, and hows, I can see how an adoptive parent could say what Joseph's friend said. It really reflects the disappointment they are feeling in how things turned out despite their best efforts. I am sure they didn't want perfect children, just average kids with normal ups and downs, not drastic traumatic drama.

Just remember that correlation does not imply causation.

". Adopted daughter's biological mom was heavy into drugs, she had many
children with different fathers. This was known. Daughter winds up
doing the exact same thing. How is this?" Perhaps, on some deeper level, it was the only way that daughter knew how to "connect" with her mother. Perhaps the adoptive parents somehow communicated their disgust about her parentage and she didn't want to "disappoint" them in their judgements.

"Two professors adopted a child and had one biologically. The adopted child again became a heavy drug user. Not her sibling." Seriously hard to say without an intimate knowledge of the family, but I've known so many adoptees whose adopters then went on to have biological children, emotionally favoring them, or rejecting the adopted child (subtly or not) because they don't connect in the same way they do with their own child.

Adoption successes and failures are very complex. It's not an easy life for anyone involved, not the unicorns and rainbows painted by the adoption $$$ industry.

Olychick, what horrible stories about adoptions gone wrong. Heart breaking for those poor children. They lose twice.

pennydesign made several comments earlier in this thread concerning things I'd said. I responded to them but sometime later her comments were removed. At that point, what I said to the now removed contributions appeared odd and out of context. So, I deleted my responses too.

Oly, interestingly enough the first girl I mentioned named her first baby the name her biological mother wanted her to have, but the adoptive parents changed. She went on to have another daughter. Those two were fostered out and I think now adopted. The grandparents see these two children, while the mother (their DD) does not. This girl went on to have another baby which I last I heard was still with her.

So many variables.

I remember one more. Years ago when I was learning to drive, my instructor was adopted. We became friendly and I asked her if she would consider finding her bio mom. She said, "absolutely not!" My mom (meaning her adopted mom) is my mother. The bio mom gave her up and she had no desire to find or see her. She decided to not be concerned with possible inherited health issues.

A possible factor among adopted children that people in our community are becoming more aware of is damage caused to the fetus by the mother's use of drugs and alcohol. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome has affected many children whose mothers drank during pregnancy and adoptive parents weren't always aware of the child's limitations of poor impulse control, low IQ, etc. No doubt a mother's drug use would affect an unborn child too, and perhaps not detected until years later, if ever.

Veering OT for a bit here, regarding gun ownership per capita. According to Wikipedia, the estimated number of guns per 100 residents in the U.S. is 112.6; in Canada per 100 residents is 30.8. Estimated guns per 100 population by country

It's hard for an adoptee when a born-to sibling comes into the family. Junior 'fits in' and can be 'claimed' simply due to his resemblance to family. (Even if there IS no resemblance, someone is going to see Grandpa's nose or Uncle's grin.)

Thank you, Olychick, for true words about the evil myths of adoption. Nobody wants to 'go there', but it is so misunderstood.

eld6161 -- What do you think about your driving instructor's adamant refusal to learn more about *herself*? You asked a reasonable, rational question. Wouldn't YOU want to know where you came from and why you were surrendered? I Sure Would.

I can only say that the more vehement the denial, the deeper the hurt and fear. Many, many adoptees are afraid of losing their place in their adoptive family by allowing any interest in birth family. (They have lost one connection; can't afford to risk the present one.)

Many adoptive parents only realize they ARE Mom and Dad after an adoptee finds birth family. (At the risk of sounding like the Washington Tweeter... Sad!)

eld 6161:
" She said, "absolutely not!" My mom (meaning her adopted mom) is my mother. The bio mom gave her up and she had no desire to find or see her. She decided to not be concerned with possible inherited health issues."

That's me, too.

Chisue:
"What do you think about your driving instructor's adamant refusal to learn more about *herself*? You asked a reasonable, rational question. Wouldn't YOU want to know where you came from and why you were surrendered? I Sure Would.

I can only say that the more vehement the denial, the deeper the hurt and fear. Many, many adoptees are afraid of losing their place in their adoptive family by allowing any interest in birth family. (They have lost one connection; can't afford to risk the present one.)

Many adoptive parents only realize they ARE Mom and Dad after an adoptee finds birth family. (At the risk of sounding like the Washington Tweeter... Sad!)"

Seriously? Seriously? I don't know where to start, and this isn't the place, but I vehemently disagree with your psych lesson.

Chisue, I could not disagree with you more based on my first hand experience.

Wouldn't YOU want to know where you came from and why you were surrendered? I Sure Would.

No, not my case. Those people are nothing to me and there is no bond. It takes more than being a sperm donor and delivering a baby to be a parent.

I can only say that the more vehement the denial, the deeper the hurt
and fear. Many, many adoptees are afraid of losing their place in their
adoptive family by allowing any interest in birth family. (They have
lost one connection; can't afford to risk the present one.)

It is impossible to lose a connection that never existed. I am very secure in my family (actually don't consider them adoptive parents) and my siblings (not adopted). We are a family.

Back to adults living with parents.

I was enlightened by my neighbor this afternoon. I always thought two adults, separate homes, were living with their elderly parents to help take care of them. It turns out the parents are caring for the adult kids. One middle aged has a drug addiction and has been in and out of recovery. The other, a few houses down is an alcoholic who drinks up his disability income.

You never know.

Oh Brush - those poor parents. My heart breaks for them.

The mister and I are working towards becoming licensed foster parents, because we believe that all children deserve a stable home environment where they feel safe and for however long we can provide that to however many children ultimately arrive at our door, we want to do that for them. We know it will be hard and we know that these children are going to be coming with such heavy burdens for anyone much less a kid to be carrying - and many will return to struggling families in bad situations. We know how lucky we were growing up (though much of this wasn't recognized until we were adults ourselves) and feel that we are called to give the children in our community a safe place, to encourage them...They are children, not "someone else's problems" as the mister heard his siblings say when he told them of our plans and that we don't plan to have biological children.

Parents are people and as such are not perfect. It takes time to realize that they do the best they can with what they have available. Kids arrive imperfect, that's just how things are. It is hard to face situations such as a diagnosis of severe mental illness and realizing all the hopes and plans one had are not likely to happen - but I've seen people reach down deeper than they thought existed and are now living so much more than anyone would have imagined, and it's definitely NOT because the people around them said "Aim low" or "Reduce your expectations for life in general". It's got to be a balance - you don't want to prevent a kid from experiencing any failure or screwing up, and you don't want them to start with a feeling of hopelessness and the sense that the most they can accomplish is not quite reaching mediocrity.

This will be shocking...but...Sometimes it helps if you actually listen to your kid when they are trying to tell you the relentless pressure is getting them in a bad place and then work together on developing coping skills and better problem solving while they're young enough to have issues that aren't crisis-level. Talk about mental health and educate yourself, it exists in every socioeconomic group and a diagnosis still carries with it an awful stigma and requires people to actively push back against it.

When I speak about adoption issues I am speaking as an adoptive mother and wife of an adult adoptee.

I am stating what I learned as co-leader of a search and support group for adult adoptees and birthparents in Chicago. It was one of many across the nation: Truth Seekers in Adoption. One of our goals was to forward the right of adult adoptees to access their own birth records. In opposition were (and are) many possessive adoptive parents and adoption profiteers.

I'm speaking based on what I learned from hundreds of families over a period of a dozen years.

We had adoptees who waited until their adoptive parents died to search. Family members still accused them of 'disloyalty'. We had adoptive parents who were *terrified* they would be 'replaced' if an adopted child searched.

Most of our group's birth parents had surrendered (an apt word) because they had no means of support -- as pregnant teenagers or abandoned wives. They had trusted agencies to place their babies in better circumstances; sometimes that had happened. We had birth mothers who had agonized for decades, wondering whether their child had been cared for -- had been wounded or killed in the military -- only to find the child had died in infancy or in an accident twenty years earlier. Many faced unwarranted anger -- most often from male children; men have little understanding of a woman's limited choices. All of these women *loved* their children -- rarely would any be accepted as "Mother" to them.

Nobody who searched was sorry they had done it. Fantasies and fears were replaced with facts. Adoptive parents lost their fears and were sometimes surprised at how much more 'at peace' they were. Adoptees learned the who and the why that every born-to child never has to wonder about -- or resist wondering about.

This should be a *choice* for adoptees, who had no voice in their removal from one family and placement in another one. In no other social setting do sealed records prevent adults from finding one another and asking if they can meet and talk. Adoption should have nothing to do with 'replacements'.

Just FYI....I occasionally pop back in to see where this is going, but can't comment on adoptions.

quoting elmer for clarification..

"pennydesign made several comments earlier in this thread concerning things I'd said. I responded to them but sometime later her comments were removed. At that point, what I said to the now removed contributions appeared odd and out of context. So, I deleted my responses too."

I just wanted to clear up for you elmer (and anyone else who wondered) than I have not deleted any of my comments.

Sorry for the interruption. Now, back to whatever was being discussed...

Penny, I really do hope things work out for all of you. I know dealing with adult kids can really be tough. The ball is in your court now. If you don't shove it down the court your son will not play ball. He will be stuck. He needs a little push. I hope you can do it. Not only for his sake but yours, too. I know you love him and want what is best for him but you have to get him to see the light. I will be cheering for you!!

Hi Penny...I understand how you feel, I've been there...the hardest part...trying to listen to your head when your heart says something else...it resolved for me but not because I solved it so I have no advice...but I do have hugs (((((PENNY)))))

Oh we're all okay.

I have come to learn (thank you to those who made this abundantly clear) that reaching out when you're having a down time is frowned upon here, at least by most.

I don't understand (and I guess I don't care really) that many people didn't read my post. Nowhere did I give the details pertinent to an advice request. I was simply reaching out, much like some other posts I had read at the Kitchen Table written by those who were also frustrated by things that happened to them.

I thought that was okay to share. I didn't think I would be accused, by some, of being a bad parent or denigrated or spoken down to as if I was sitting on the back stoop of my double wide smoking a crack pipe while my kids ran amok.

Those of you who DID understand....I very much appreciate you.... :) I am grateful for what you said.

I won't be reading or commenting any more here as I have made my point, in fact, I hope this thread disappears as it's a sad reminder to me. However, as I have been told, I have no control so I leave it up to everyone else.

Public forums are like in-person conversations in at least one significant way - the person who starts a conversational topic doesn't have the prerogative to control what others say. Or to suppress differing or divergent comments offered in the spirit of the discussion.

I have to say, your first paragraph sounds a little dramatic. But anyways, if you just wanted people to give the virtual hug, maybe you should just post that you're having a bad day, and could use some good thoughts, or something to that effect. Not give just enough detail for people to want to offer opinions or advice. I'm sorry you think you're stuck and things can't change.

I don't know if you have deleted, but I do know you have edited posts, pennydesign. Even early on, when I posted the second time, your post above mine said one thing--by the time mine posted to the board, yours had been completely changed to "Lots of you are incredibly self-righteous." I don't care, beyond how I view your future posts after your attempts to mislead in this thread.

gyr, it's a matter of integrity, isn't it. Within the past few days, about 30 minutes after posting a comment, I was looking at my words and thought they were awkward. I made changes to improve it (without changing the meaning), hit the submit button, and found that you, gyr, had in the meantime written a subsequent response that quoted the original wording of my post.

There was one thing to do - I copied your copy of what I originally said, and replaced the changed text I had just submitted, to put it back as it was originally and to conform with what you'd quoted. Not doing that would have been unfair to you. And would have cast doubt on my own integrity (as far as I'm concerned).

Penny, for the most part, people here are supportive. It is a natural progression for these types of threads to spin off into many different directions.

People will:

1. give an opinion of what was asked
2. decided to give advice anyway
3. share a similar story of what has happened in their own life