I hope that you can stand some more input Jet :-) Remember, this is just some other person's opinion, you know what is right for you.

First of all I find your house very intriguing; it's big and grand and modern and I think once you get all the kinks worked out it will be one of those homes you walk into and think "Wow!"

Anyway, in my opinion, I think pulling your garage forward a bit to get some windows in the kitchen is a good idea. A good friend of mine has a kitchen with no windows and it just isn't pleasant to be in there cooking or cleaning or even just hanging out. A lot of people on this forum will be aghast that you now have a "snout" garage (wouldn't bother me) so that is something you will need to think about.

Regarding the pantry; maybe you could turn all those cabinets on the wall separating the kitchen and dining room into a reach in pantry. It looks like you have at least 8 - 9 feet of cabinets there. Search Houzz and Pinterest and you will get some great ideas for a large reach in pantry. I think with the two islands and the large areas on either side of the stove you will have plenty of counter top area. Then you could use the area where the pantry is to install a set of back stairs to the second floor. (I'm kinda hung up on the long trek to the foyer to go up the stairs) I think you also need a way from the garage into the mudroom, into the kitchen.

One last thing, it looks like the only exit to the back yard is through the family room. Maybe think about having access to the back from the living or dining room.

Regarding architects (In the 20 years I was in construction I worked with a bunch of them), I found that none of them worked the exact same way when developing plans. Some created elevations before floor plans. Some created floor plans before elevations. Some did them together. Some presented us initially with drawings with no details and others put the little details in right from the get go. It just depended on the architect. Either way, it always worked out by the end :-)

I hope you don't get discouraged by some of the comments and that you keep posting your plans and progress. I would love to see the final outcome - it's going to be fantastic.

This is definitely how our architect works, and we definitely wish it were a more collaborative process. We've debated trying someone else, but there's no guarantees the next person will be better.

Ok, what I would suggest for openers is for you to read this thread where this person got her local architect to try a more collaborative process...and read the embedded thread in there about how it may work. http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3598813/we-fit-an-architect-into-our-budget-and-it-was-so-worth-it?n=17

And I agree with the poster who noted all architects work slightly differently so he/she will have to tailor it to his/her style but I'm a believer that the best designers are fast on their feet. For entire houses we all have to "go back to the shop" to work on the design to some degree but if that occurs a significant amount of time with minimal time spent in a truly collaborative process, it's my opinion that that person is probably not that creative, but again, just my opinion, your person may be the exception that proves the rule! And as another illustration, a while back I posted another design session here (scroll down to my photo heavy 5/12 post) http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3887104/what-should-i-expect-from-my-architect-long?n=22

While I don't agree initial drafts need to be pencil sketches and not CAD, since really, CAD can be even quicker in the right hands Maybe. Maybe not. I doubt it. Those freehand sketches in these links and the post above took under 20 minutes each and being able to quickly over lay one over another it permits a seamless flow the owner can be an active participant in. It's a whole lot easier for the client to command a pencil over a mouse....("Ok here, select the refrigerator....now right click on it.....no, RIGHT click,,,,now drag it over to the other wall....no, hold down the button WHILE dragging..." etc...) And if I need a "straight" line I just use the edge of my scale. But what's probably more important, while a CAD drawing may show what I know, a sketch will show what I'm thinking as part of a fluid collaborative process.

But the best of luck with your project. Exciting times ahead!

I just looked at the house plan again - and I was wondering about a "day in the life" study.

In your typical day, you noted that you expect to spend the most time in the kitchen / eating area / great room. (I agree, by the way, it looks like a great "all inclusive" place to hang out...) As you walk through a day:

• Get up / dressed (likely upstairs master suite)
• Down the stairs and into the kitchen. Coffee / breakfast.
• Head off for work (out through the mudroom to the garage)
• (Alt work - head over to the study)
• Come home, park in garage, enter house through mudroom, head to kitchen
• (maybe up to master to change clothes)
• Cook dinner in kitchen
• Have dinner at island
• Clean up kitchen
• Relax with book / TV in great room
• Head up to bed

Unless you work from home, you have never set foot in 2/3s of your home on a daily basis. And what's more, because of the way it's laid out, you don't even really get to appreciate them because they are out of the visual space of the main living area.

And honestly - if you are informal entertainers, I see the same thing happening with guests. They will congregate in that great kitchen / island seating / great room space. (with access to the outdoor space too)

Good design has great spatial relationships, and draws people into other areas / uses all the areas. Perhaps the above is not how you live, but really think about your life, your friends and what happens when you get together. Build for that reality, and make the most used spaces beautiful and welcoming - with the best views, the best relationship to the outdoors, etc.

CP and Jannicone nailed what I was referring to, along with MrsPete's reference to the Pacman effect. You have inefficient and unwieldy space, and the separations that exist aren't really thoughtful ones.

You've been given so much data in here but I must echo trying to connect the foyer and mudroom, dropping an island and adding pantry and elevator space to be adequate (5x5 should really be about your minimum rough in for a residential elevator if you're aging in place - walkers and wheelchairs aren't small.)

I would consider doubling up some function between formal dining and a family room or den. I have about a half a bazillion children, but we find a ton of value in a formal dining room table in the room we play in. Puzzles, legos, schoolwork, etc. And I don't actually like that space to be in my kitchen, either. With some good built in storage against one wall I think you can get a sitting area/tv/formal dining occasionally in one of your living spaces - then when you entertain the stuff goes into the beautiful built ins and what remains is a fantastic seating area and table/chairs, right in the heart of the home.

Concurrently, drop the second island and great room altogether, moving that functionality to the right side in your dining room/living room and making a smaller seating area off the kitchen. Heck, you could even move your pantry off that back side, with the great room gone, and make it a pass through from the rear of the garage into a pantry/butler's pantry and then kitchen.

These are just some quick ideas, I'm on my phone and can't jot anything down, but this is what I mean by making a list of what you really need and want and then starting to move the boxes around from scratch, seeing what makes sense instead of being wedded to a layout that has very low functionality for the square footage and cost.

Put another way, we are building a luxury home for 8-10 people (actively living here, this doesn't count out of town guests) on about an acre in a high end neighborhood. Put in the offer on land a few days ago. But our design process begins with a list that everyone (even the kids are chipping in) thinks we must have in terms of function.

Then we are going through that list and seeing what we can combine and maximize to get the absolute best utilization of space and functionality. Where do we really want to prioritize - ranked on a scale of importance by item.

After that? We have consciously focused on what we can *cut out* of our plan. Every good idea we've ever had doesn't need to go in the same house, or you risk having a set of rooms but no cohesive home. The top ranked functions and spaces get primary floor space and are what we base the flow of rooms around, in our case with a horizontal axis flowing out from the center point, and the lower items down the list get placed either in combined function (like my second main floor master for aging parents or my disabled son when he gets older actually being my craft room and personal space until we have need of it for a bedroom, then having a second space we can frame in upstairs and divide to move that room so we retain functionality, but won't waste the space for ten years on the main floor if we don't need it).

Those lower priority items like a laundry room and office are there and WILL be in my home, but their ranks means that we are moving them to a logical spot for the flow, NOT giving them the same importance in the house as the kitchen and main dining and living areas. Those areas must must must be comfortable, well appointed, and the house flows through and from them. But in order to do that we had to be willing to move, say, that laundry room or mud room to other locations that hadn't first occurred to us because they were subordinate to the main spaces where we all felt it was important to live most of our time.

In your floor plan, you have everything all there, all big, all fighting for dominance. I don't get a sense of the spaces moving from public to private, or where the you and your family will live most of your time. Are you really using each room equally? If not, be flexible in where those lesser used spaces go to give priority to the ones that really matter to how you live. I can't even get a sense of how many people live in this house - it looks like a home planned for twelve but with only three there. What you may be missing is that a home planned for more people than live there, without wings or annex buildings, tends to be too vast to function well for the core family that actually pays for the space. Everything feels off of the human scale and therefore not cozy, homey, or welcoming.

If it entertaining is super important to all of you? The kitchen and great room setup, perhaps oriented 90 degrees so that the foyer flow through to the great room, makes sense. Focus on that. An away room/den and dining room can still exist, but they need to not interrupt the function and flow of the main space so that nobody knows where to move or focus. The plan feels like 'all the things' and a refusal to actually pick and choose where to invest, because you have the capital to do it. What may be missing is that just because you can pay for it all doesn't mean you'll be happy with what you buy - picking and choosing and triaging importance of spaces isn't about being cheap but rather gearing your whole custom residence to what is of highest importance and utility to the way you live your daily lives.

Go go back to the drawing board, make a list, move some boxes, find a central cohesive theme and flow. Walk through these spaces in your mind and see how they feel.

Clear as mud? I'm sorry if I made it all the more confusing but I agree with the vast majority of posters on this thread. We want to help you, but we can't without some flexibility in the design. If you can tell us what function or space you MUST retain, like top three, I think you'll be very pleased with some of the layouts the architects and homeowners here can dream up to help you get what you want.

Frequent lurker here, but I rarely comment, as there is no short supply of wise and prudent commentary on this forum. However, I wanted to add my $0.02 to this discussion, as you mentioned you have your 1st child on the way (congrats!), with plans for more, and this is hopefully your forever home. May I just emphasize that your needs/wants will change massively upon the arrival of children. My husband and I waited to have children, then purchased a home at the top end of our price range when I was pregnant with our first, convinced that it would be everything we needed for at least the next 18 years. When we found out I was pregnant with our 2nd, we put that house on the market. The floor plan didn't flow well for our family with 1 young child, and was definitely not going to work with 2 young children.

A windowless kitchen is the stuff of nightmares for me...we now have 4 children, and the amount of time I spend in the kitchen is shocking. It seems like I'm serving food 18 times a day. It would be of utmost annoyance to have to leave my post in the kitchen to walk into another room, just to look out the window to see how they were doing. You'll be doing these quick window checks frequently, as in every 2 minutes. And it appears your yard space is through the great room and off the deck...that's a long way to run to reach a child that just got hurt. Of course, you can just be exemplary parents and never let them into the yard alone at any time, but...life.

Also, I fully understand the theory behind separate living areas. But I need to warn you, children are able to touch every square inch of a house on a daily basis, and usually with muddy feet and sticky fingers. So the more living spaces, the more to clean. And you'll have four separate living areas that have children's things in them that don't belong there. (Also apply this to your 3 walls of windows - a beautiful idea, but you will be cleaning sticky handprints off them daily).

Here's my suggestion, although it's definitely a Debbie-Downer. As it seems money is not a concern, I would suggest you hold on to your lot. Put these house plans on hold. Find a 3- or 4-bedroom house that you like, that you think is a good starting point for what you want in the future. Live in that for a while with your kid(s), and then go back to your architect. You will be shocked at what a difference a few years of kids can make on your list of wants/needs.

Whatever you decide, best of luck! And congrats!

Fam of6's comments are good examples of why there's really no such thing as a "forever" home.

"Forever home" is a wish and a hope, albeit a good one. It seldom takes place, however. For example, I've lived in at least three "forever" homes, loved each one, and never thought that life would happen in such a way as to cause us to move and relocate. But we did! Twice I've vowed the only way I'm leaving this house is in a pine box!

What happens to forever homes? Things like family, jobs, health, etc.

My advice is to plan a house for the next 5-10 years of one's life and hope living in the house lasts that long before there may be major changes sufficient to cause one to relocate.

Hi Jet, I totally understand and agree with your comment ". We've debated trying someone else, but there's no guarantees the next person will be better". I felt the same when we were looking to design our home. However, let me reassure you, there are many awesome architects around. Further, there are awesome architects on this board. Folks here, encouraged me to contact pros on this forum. Therefore, I am also passing this suggestion on to you. You will be pleasantly surprised by the caliber of skill and creativity available from the pros here. (:

Jet, I do not want your business as I am busy right now, but I do have a sketch that can give you an idea. Please message me. If you need help with the hole design, I recommend you to contact ArchitectRunnerGuy. I do not want to post the sketch without you seeing it first, because it might not work for you

See, to me, a floor plan is extremely easy, the fun is coordinating site, roof, floor plan, elevations, style, materials and so much more, like, where the buffet will be placed, because right now, you do not have a proper place :) or adding some buffer between guest room and foyer (and a high end residential architect will not place a guest bedroom door like the one shown on your plan).

Rufty Homes - Kitchen · More Info

Here is a revision we just got. This just includes some changes we requested before we posted on here related to the kitchen/pantry/mudroom. (It is overlaid on the topography lines.)

Bigger version so you can zoom in: https://imgur.com/a/oYEzc

Well, it doesn't mean a lot until you see the second floor and the exterior perspectives or elevations, since a change anywhere means a change everywhere.

This step by step process, looking at one portion of the design at a time, is just deceiving you into thinking that design is a linear, step-by-step process. It is not.

When you look at the second floor plan and want to make changes, it will impact the first floor. When you look at the exterior perspectives and elevations and want to make changes, it will impact both the first and second floor plans. And then there's the site plan...and the changes that may be necessary...Although from the first floor plan, it looks like site planning and access may have already taken place and no one has seen it yet...?

I truly hope you are satisfied with the process and can adjust to the changes and adjustments which may be coming...

Deal breaker for me in your plan is the kitchen. There's no windows and it's deeply layered. I would be concerned it might end up looking like a very dark maze.

I hope that you can stand some more input Jet :-) Remember, this is just some other person's opinion, you know what is right for you.

Of course. Our wants are different than a lot of other people's. If they weren't, I'd buy an existing home and save a lot of time.

I think once you get all the kinks worked out it will be one of those homes you walk into and think "Wow!"

Thanks. I'm sure most of us want some Wow! reactions with the amount of time/money/effort a custom home takes.

"Forever home" is a wish and a hope, albeit a good one.

Definitely true. I probably shouldn't have used that term. Hopefully I can retire on a beach and not in the new house, but not making any assumptions. I more meant, we're not building a house for our life now. We have that already. And with the cost and effort of building a home and our current ages, we don't want to build a house that will only fit our lives for 5 years.

What happens to forever homes? Things like family, jobs, health, etc.

Totally agree. Does resale ability/value matter to people here? Sure, not having a formal dining room I'd use once a month wouldn't kill me. But I know it would make selling my home a lot harder if I didn't have one.

I'm kinda hung up on the long trek to the foyer to go up the stairs

Except from maybe the family room, it doesn't feel long to the stairs to us. If we end up turning the stairs 90 degrees CC, that'll save a few feet at least.

I think you also need a way from the garage into the mudroom, into the kitchen.

This was in one draft we had, but we eliminated it to not be able to skip the mudroom or lose pantry or counter space out of the kitchen.

And I agree with the poster who noted all architects work slightly differently so he/she will have to tailor it to his/her style but I'm a believer that the best designers are fast on their feet.

Definitely not just trying to defend our architect. We are plenty frustrated. We must be at 17 drafts by now.

I do really enjoy your (Architectrunnerguy's) design illustrations.

Unless you work from home, you have never set foot in 2/3s of your home on a daily basis.

@jannicone, I enjoyed the a "day in the life" study. Disagree that it's not using 2/3 of the home on a daily basis. I think most people do not use their guest bedroom, and formal entertaining areas like dining room and living room on the typical day. Does that mean no one should have them? But I definitely understand your point. And it's part of why we didn't want a GIANT kitchen table; we thought we'd get more dining room use if we didn't have one.

The kitchen and great room setup, perhaps oriented 90 degrees so that the foyer flow through to the great room, makes sense.

We have definitely considered this, and don't rule it out. I just prefer to be able to have people coming through the front door into the living room etc. without having to expose them to my kitchen mess or family room full of toys.

See, I also do not like the kitchen in the pic Nafnaf posted. It looks like a church and the stove is the alter.

Ah well, to each her own, I say. Good luck, Jet.

I still don't like how the Guest Room entrance is so public.

Naf_Naf mentioned the guest room door as well. Not sure I know what this means. Like it's uncomfortable off of the foyer which is very public space?

We thought it would be out of the way from the bustle of the kitchen and family room, and convenient to a guest coming in the front door.

Yes and you'd also have a large enough pantry and I'm guessing your foyer wouldn't be larger than your dining room because if you have that large a house for entertaining, you'd need a dining room that is appropriate to the size.

@cpartist, is the dining room too small for the house?

Definitely not just trying to defend our architect. We are plenty frustrated. We must be at 17 drafts by now.

I'm curious if this is 17 drafts of the same basic plan....I feel like it has been based on your posts, but I don't know for sure. Maybe they gave you 17 completely different ideas and this was the best? I just get the feeling that isn't the case from your posting.

I've told my story before. I'll type some of it again here. We had an "architect" initially. We met with one of the "designers." Went through all the wants and needs. Showed him the property on the GIS website. pointed out all the great views, etc. Many weeks went by before we heard anything at all. We finally called. The response was that they weren't done with the house yet. But that they were getting there just working on the finer details. That's when I asked what if I don't like it? What if you've gone a wrong direction with it? So I asked to see what they had so far. It was just not right. They had all the furniture placed and everything. The corner of the house with the best views were taken by a 1/2 bath and a linen closet. They were completely designing one house. If I didn't like something, they'd adjust it. But at the heart of it all was we were trying to FIX something that wasn't that great to begin with.

So, enter architect number 2 :)

We met with this architect the first time... gave him the wants/needs list (actually a typed program room by room) and a bubbles of adjacency. After he toured the property and toured our current house (to see what works and doesn't work for us currently). The next meeting he had 10 totally different sketches. Rough sketches, mind you. But, 10 very different ways of getting to our goals. We eliminated all but 3 completely then. We then focused on slowly refining them, pulling concepts we liked and didn't like. It is so much nicer now.

I think when you interview your for your next architect, you should really ask how they work, how their process works. I hope you look at Naf's sketch because I'm dying to see it!!! :)

Sorry for the long post just to ask if you've seen other completely different ideas :) :)

Good luck!

Totally agree. Does resale ability/value matter to people here? Sure, not having a formal dining room I'd use once a month wouldn't kill me. But I know it would make selling my home a lot harder if I didn't have one.

Actually nowadays that is not true. People are realizing they don't do formal entertaining like they did 50 years ago so they're foregoing formal dining.

I've been in $5 million dollar houses that have seating at the island and a dining area at least partially open to the kitchen and those houses sell immediately if they are well laid out.

Of course. Our wants are different than a lot of other people's.

Then why are you trying to build a house that appeals to others? (I'm talking about your comment above where you're putting in the dining room because IF you sell, you're worried about it selling. You just negated your comment about your wants being different.

I think you also need a way from the garage into the mudroom, into the kitchen.

This was in one draft we had, but we eliminated it to not be able to skip the mudroom or lose pantry or counter space out of the kitchen.

This is the point you are really missing!!! You can have it all if it is designed well. You can have a mudroom that leads you from the garage into the kitchen without losing the pantry or counter space. However, it takes a person of design talent to see beyond their CAD program.

Definitely not just trying to defend our architect. We are plenty frustrated. We must be at 17 drafts by now.

So when are you going to cut your losses and stop throwing good time and money after bad?

Disagree that it's not using 2/3 of the home on a daily basis. I think most people do not use their guest bedroom,

Actually nowadays many people do. I will be using my guest bedroom daily since I'm planning on having a Murphy bed and my exercise bicycle in the guest bedroom. DH will have his elliptical. And if I ever want to curl up with a book, my window seat is in my guest bedroom.

One of my friend's is using the guest bedroom as their craft room and a third friend is using it as their library room. The one using it as their library has a trundle bed made to look like a couch.

and formal entertaining areas like dining room and living room on the typical day.

Again, if you do a lot of entertaining then definitely you need the rooms. But again, if the rooms are going to sit idle for weeks at a time, and only be used a few times a year, why do you want to pay to heat, cool and clean those rooms?

Just as an example, if you're not the entertaining type but you love watching movies, wouldn't a theater room be a better use of space? That's just one example.

@cpartist, is the dining room too small for the house?

No I don't think so but will you have a buffet or other furniture in there?

No I don't think so but will you have a buffet or other furniture in there?

Wasn't planning on it. Thought with the butler's pantry and the large kitchen right there, there wouldn't be a need for anything but a table and chairs.

Then the size is fine.

"We must be at 17 drafts by now."

And that is very, very scary without even a 2nd floor plan or elevations developed. At the current rated you will be over 75 revisions before you're through. Hence why this entire house needs to be developed in concert with each other. As virgil mentions everything that changes has a ripple effect somewhere, no way to avoid it.

17 drafts with no elevations or second floor? Perhaps your architect is taking advantage of you?

I still don't like how the Guest Room entrance is so public.

Naf_Naf mentioned the guest room door as well.
Not sure I know what this means. Like it's uncomfortable off of the foyer which
is very public space?

We thought it would be
out of the way from the bustle of the kitchen and family room, and convenient
to a guest coming in the front door.

For what it's worth since you have mentioned re-sale, we have a bedroom off of the foyer also (ranch floor plan with split bedrooms - master suite is very private but the other bedrooms are less private with one of them having a door off of the foyer). We recently had our house on the market and that was the number one complaint we received from prospective buyers at every.single.showing. Buyers did not like having a bedroom accessible from the foyer, even if it was to be used as a guest bedroom and not a child's bedroom.

But, that is just one detail. I think you have received some very good advice about taking a step back from this plan and considering a design process that may give you a better result.

A bedroom off the foyer is ok in my opinion, as long as there is a small vestibule or a very short hall or the door is set up in a way that you would not be able to see the bed directly from foyer

Yeah, a little vestibule alcove makes a big difference in transitioning.

Hey, Jet! I think you're going to end up with a really awesome, functional WOW factor house. It just may take a few more tweaks to get there.

Not sure where all of this snarky criticism is coming from on this forum. Definitely makes me reconsider posting my house plans when that time comes.

To answer your original questions --

The house plan we're working on also doesn't have windows in the kitchen. It's making me question too. HOWEVER, I do want to point out that many new construction custom homes I've been in recently have this and it feels just fine. Four of my family members all have homes just like this and they have no complaints. The kitchen is open to a room or rooms with gracious amounts of windows so it doesn't feel dark at all.

I actually don't mind the look of the garage being pushed forward a tad. It could turn into an interesting feature for your exterior. And that solves your window issue!

The foyer is very grand, but I do agree with some of the other commenters that it could be a tad smaller and you can reallocate that square footage into "usable" space in other rooms. It will still feel very grand and have the WOW factor by subtracting a few feet.

I imagine your family room open to the kitchen will be where you'll spend most of your time. With a little one on the way and possibly more to come, I would definitely take toy storage into consideration for that room. Maybe some built-ins on either side of the fireplace with drawers and cabinets for storage? I have a 15 month old and we have toys everywhereeeeee in our current living room. Our new house will have a playroom for that reason. As the kiddos get older, that storage can hold dvds, photo albums, blankets, board games, etc.

I can see why you'd be frustrated with your architect. 17 revisions with no exterior yet is NOT good.

I'm excited to see your progress! Best of luck to you!!

"I still don't like how the Guest Room entrance is so public.

Naf_Naf mentioned the guest room door as well. Not sure I know what this means. Like it's uncomfortable off of the foyer which is very public space?

We thought it would be out of the way from the bustle of the kitchen and family room, and convenient to a guest coming in the front door."

Jet...

I don't have time to read this whole thread but just to give you an idea of privacy off the foyer for a bedroom. Here is a screen shot of my bedroom off the foyer. Do you see the difference? Wow! You are getting a lot of feedback on your plan.

Jet, did you receive the sketch? Does it work for you?

I
really don't think it is appropriate on this forum to tell people what size house they should build and how much money they should spend on it. We have absolutely no idea of their means - none! And if they choose to be "house poor", it's none of our business unless they ask us about it.

I saw my comments as more of a caution; if you'll note, I said twice that only the OP knows his ability to pay. As for "house poor", I don't think people really choose that -- it's more of an accident. If it's wrong to caution against a poorly laid out kitchen, why is it wrong to caution against an extremely expensive overall plan?

The reason for questioning the OP so much is because so much of the house isn't right sized.

Yes, that's the point so many people have been trying to make: Parts of the house aren't right-sized or proportional. The giant foyer paired with the tiny pantry are good examples. By evening them out, the house makes more sense. Personally, I'd always allot more space to the used-every-day functional rooms.

No harm in questioning whether we need specific rooms. It's more the vague your house is too big feedback some were giving wasn't constructive.

Asking questions is a good way to determine if your plans are solid. If you can't elaborate upon /defend your choices, it's a hint that they may not be solid decisions.

Seriously read The Not So Big House. Or any of the Susanka books in the series.

Yes, good advice! That series seems to address this house!

That was an easy one for me. We combined the kitchen with our dining area so now have 3 seats at the island and a dining table we can seat 10 at. Of course we also have outdoor dining since we're in FL.

That choice hasn't been easy for us. In our current house, our main eating area is a 42" octagonal breakfast table right next to the kitchen; however, we also have a much larger table in the dining room, and we have three bar stools on the peninsula, which don't get much use (because the overhang isn't all that comfortable and the chairs are too close to the back door).

For our new house, we started with the idea of just one table -- because we don't really care about a formal space. However, as we've kicked the idea around, we've come to the following decisions:

- We really aren't looking for a formal, fancy space -- though our dining table leans towards formal, and I do love my china cabinet. I'll definitely replace the dining room chairs, but I'm still iffy on whether we'll keep the table.

- We do like the idea of having a small seating area and a large seating area. This is our retirement home, and most of the time it'll just be us two. Worse, I am younger than DH and in better health, so -- realistically -- at some point it'll just be me. I don't particularly like the idea of sitting by myself at a table for ten. So we're going with two eating areas, neither formal, but different sizes. The two tables will also work together nicely in that we could always have adults in the dining room and children in the kitchen ... or we could serve on the kitchen table and eat in the dining room.

My fantasy was that I'd use all those rooms having parties, hosting formal gatherings, etc. However that wasn't my reality before I went looking for that house, and it wasn't the reality while I lived in that house and it's not now my reality.

The reality was that I wound up with extra rooms to heat, cool and clean that were only used a few times a year. Yes, like you, we could afford the extra rooms and like you we too figured the rooms are there (it was an old house) so why shouldn't we have them? (And no, I didn't clean the house, but I still had to pay for someone to clean those rooms that were only used a few times a year.)

I think that's a common theme: building for the life you wish you lived and/or thinking you'll morph into a different person when you have different space.

In your floor plan, you have everything all there, all big, all fighting for dominance. I don't get a sense of the spaces moving from public to private, or where the you and your family will live most of your time.

Yes, that's a good sum-up.

May I just emphasize that your needs/wants will change massively upon the arrival of children.

Yes, that was the big point I was making in my earlier note about size /cost of houses. It's hard to predict how your life will change with children.

I enjoyed the a "day in the life" study. Disagree that it's not using 2/3 of the home on a daily basis.

That is a good activity; you'll find some others in the Not So Big House series that's been recommended. One of my favorite items from that book was a list-making activity: It suggested making a list of each room in your house /a list of all the activities for which you expect to use that room ... and all the items you expect that room to store. It's an eye-opener. For example, one person might say that a master bedroom is just for sleeping ... while another person might say the room should include a TV or a comfortable reading spot by an east-facing window ... and yet another person would want the master bedroom to include workout equipment. A second example might be, where would you expect to house the kids' video prolific video game collection? Family room, living room, study, basement, or bedrooms? Questioning yourself on these things will led to a more efficient, functional house.

I agree that 2/3 is an exaggeration, but you have to admit that a whole lot of this space won't be used regularly.

I still don't like how the Guest Room entrance is so public.

This is a good example of the lack of proportion in this house. A foyer bedroom in a smaller house would be acceptable ... but when you've dedicated more room to the foyer than to the bedroom, it feels wrong.

@cpartist, is the dining room too small for the house?

The dining room's the best part of the house.

Actually nowadays that is not true. People are realizing they don't do formal entertaining like they did 50 years ago so they're foregoing formal dining.

We see both on this site, but I think the one-dining spot folks outnumber the must-have-formal crew.

The foyer is very grand,

It's very large. Grand and large aren't necessarily the same.

Just a note on pantry sizes - I think it's very individual and based on how a family eats. For example, I have NO need for a large pantry because I shop every day and eat very few foods in a box or a can or a bag. I will still have a pantry for a few items, in the case of an emergency or apocalypse, but most likely it will be pretty empty.

Not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, but eating lifestyles can vary and one family may require a huge pantry while another can get by on a very small one, or even, no pantry at all.

Just a note on pantry sizes - I think it's very individual and based on how a family eats.

I totally agree. However, in this house the issue isn't the quantity of storage; rather, it's the lack of space to walk /turn around. If you have a walk-in pantry (large or small), you have to have a comfortable walkway.

As mrspete said, it's not the need or lack of need for a pantry. The pantry in my new build is 24" wide x 15" deep because I don't need to store a ton of stuff in my pantry as we eat out 3-4x a week.

However the OP's pantry in the plan is only 38 1/2" wide x almost 10' long. The problem is you need to put shelving up in a pantry. Minimum depth for pantry shelving is 9" and that's only good for canned goods. So now the aisle with a wall on one side is only 29" wide. Now imagine walking into that narrow space and heading towards the rear of the pantry.

If you have a walk-in pantry (large or small), you have to have a comfortable walkway.

No arguments about the awful pantry. We had it changed before we even started this thread.

Still smaller than we want. Obviously not a MUST have with the amount of cabinet space we have, but I'm definitely a buy-in-bulk shopper, and don't want to have to store it all in the basement.

Based on the feedback from this thread, we are considering changing this pantry into another entry into the kitchen. And then taking some SF from the foyer, and adding a larger pantry somewhere. Open to suggestions as to where. We asked about putting it between the kitchen and the garage previously, but the architect was worried it would get tight turning in and out of the garage if the house got wider.

I agree that 2/3 is an exaggeration, but you have to admit that a whole lot of this space won't be used regularly.

I expect the study will be used regularly, and that the guest room and dining rooms will be used frequently.

The living room is the room we question. I'm sure we'll sit and read in it cause it's there and nice, but obviously not entertain formally every week. But we want to be able to entertain away from the kitchen & family room. Should we shrink it a couple feet and add that to the used every day family room? Definitely worth debating, but it's the first room people see coming in after the foyer; should it be small? I think the proportions of the house would be off if we shrunk the foyer and living room a lot, and you entered into our large house and saw such small spaces. But we're here for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 100th opinions, so feel free to disagree.

I still think you need to reconsider and redesign the house using a person of design talent. You said you're on draft 17 and it's only the first floor. I hate to think of the money you've wasted so far when with a person of design talent, who understands interior and exteriors working together could give you what you want in just a few iterations. If nothing else, isn't your time worth more than having to continually tell the "architect" his job?

I still think you need to reconsider and redesign the house using a person of design talent. You said you're on draft 17 and it's only the first floor. I hate to think of the money you've wasted so far when with a person of design talent, who understands interior and exteriors working together could give you what you want in just a few iterations. If nothing else, isn't your time worth more than having to continually tell the "architect" his job?

You're right, and we are looking into other options. I know it's not for everyone, but we like this plan. After this many drafts, it's close to what we want, but it still needs work, and we're obviously not happy with the collaborative process or awfully slow pace so far. Until we find someone else we like and officially make a switch, we're proceeding with this plan and architect.

We paid a flat fee for this stage of the design process.

One other architect whose work we like, charges a pretty high % fee based on the total cost of the project. That just didn't make sense to us.

The living room is the room we question. I'm sure we'll sit and read in it cause it's there and nice, but obviously not entertain formally every week. But we want to be able to entertain away from the kitchen & family room.

Your house reminds me of my parents in a lot of ways - they have a large, beautiful house with a dramatic entryway/gallery, family room, living room, dining room, kitchen with two island and an eating area, and study (among other things). I'd say the biggest mistake they made was in their formal living room, and in the allocation of space between the informal dining/family room and the formal dining/living room. The formal dining room is used a handful of times a year - Thanksgiving and when my parents host dinners and the like for charities they support. The formal living room is used...well...almost never. Mostly just overflow play space for the granddaughters when the family room is packed (more on that in a minute).

They do entertain frequently, but the entire group almost always ends up squeezed into their family room kitchen area because that's just where people naturally congregate. I've been at parties with 60+ people, and while my mom insists they can go to the living room, all 60 something will end up crammed into the family room. She hosts regular dinners for family and friends and people end up squeezed elbow to elbow at the dining room table in the kitchen. She'd have been much better served by increasing the space in those areas, taking it away from the rarely-used formal areas.

That said, I've also been thinking about how your house compares to our own (and the one we're designing), as we probably have the same number of rooms but have them allocated differently. We have a large great room and dining room off the kitchen; this is our main entertaining space. We don't like having the t.v. in the great room, so that makes the room feel a little more formal. We then have a play room near those rooms - line of sight when the doors are open, but able to be shut off, as well. Before we added the playroom, toys were taking over the great room and drove me nuts. The playroom allows them to be close without being in the middle of everything, and it also helps make the great room "nicer." We like having it close because in our experience young kids want to play right by where the adults are, and about the time they're old enough to want to be away from the adults, the adults start wanting them around to keep an eye on a bit more. :-) Then we'll have a separate den/media room with a couch and t.v.. For us this allocation of space works well, and ensures we have no "formal" space that is rarely used, but have casual space that is "nicer" to accomplish the same purpose. What makes sense for you may be different, but if you're questioning the living room now, I'd really think carefully about that one, as my experience is there might be better arrangements. And I'd also think about where toys will live that is close to things but not under foot.

We have a large great room and dining room off the kitchen; this is our main entertaining space. We don't like having the t.v. in the great room, so that makes the room feel a little more formal.

What rooms are directly off the foyer? Are the dining room and great room fully open to the kitchen or just adjacent to them?

We really want the kitchen and family room to be one open space. And a giant TV is a must-have in that room for our house.

I just don't think I'd want a potential kitchen mess close to the front door, and also want to be able to have a decent size entertaining space away from it as well.

If I shrunk or eliminated the living room, not sure what I'd want off the entrance/foyer. Kitchen/Family Room seems too informal/messy. And wouldn't want a small room as the first impression. Also, the space I reclaimed from the living room, I'd want to just add that mostly to the family room, but then maybe the family room feels too big.

We then have a play room near those rooms - line of sight when the doors are open, but able to be shut off, as well. Before we added the playroom, toys were taking over the great room and drove me nuts.

The toy mess is something we see our friends and family all contend with, and we definitely want to consider it. Hopefully we can tackle it with good storage, and the basement, but I'm sure a dedicated first floor playroom makes more sense for keeping the kids close. How big and how close should it be? It's not something we want to give up the living room for, so not sure what to give up, or where to put it. Obviously if a room could do double duty as a playroom and something else, that makes the most sense.

Jet can you message me?

Sure. Sent. And updated my settings to allow messages, not sure why that was off.

Totally agree with Kristin's comments about playrooms!

What rooms are directly off the foyer? Are the dining room and great room fully open to the kitchen or just adjacent to them?

In our current house, the foyer opens directly into the great room, with the dining room next to the great room and the kitchen next to the dining room. I don't have a floor plan I can share, but it's basically a U, with a wall diving rooms down the center of the U. You come in the foyer at one of the top points, walk stright ahead to the great room, turn 90 degrees to the dining room, and turn 90 degrees again to the dining room, with all very open. The result is the kitchen is out of sight from the foyer but open to the dining and great rooms.

Our new house will be similar, but with the kitchen even more open to the great room. The floor plans are posted under my post asking about windowless media rooms. That was the absolute first draft, so they're very much a work in progress (and we have some unique site characteristics that lock us into a specific outside boundary), but the general arrangement of the back half of the house (kitchen/dining room/great room/playroom) will likely remain unchanged.

Hopefully we can tackle it with good storage, and the basement, but I'm sure a dedicated first floor playroom makes more sense for keeping the kids close. How big and how close should it be?

I've seen people do it with good storage in the great room. That was my plan originally, too. For us, though, that just didn't work. My (five-year-old) daughter wants to build a train track and leave it up for the week, or she starts an art project and needs to let something dry before moving on to the next phase, so it doesn't make sense to pack it all up, or she wants to do ALL her floor puzzles and see them together, which takes a couple of days. If we had more constraints we could absolutely just tell she couldn't do those things and require everything be picked up at the end of the play session, but they're all things I want to encourage - art and building and creativity and deep engagement with ongoing projects that last longer than a single play session.

I don't think the playroom needs to be big (not sure how big ours is - maybe 11' x 12'? If you end up with one my piece of advice would be to make it a big room with no built-in storage. We have beautiful built-ins, but they haven't always worked with the toys my daughter has. In retrospect I wish I'd just done an empty room with Ikea storage so I wouldn't feel guilty when I swap them out. That's what we'll do in our new house.

Also, just to share a real-life example of why it's nice to have the playroom near everything on the main level. My seven year old nieces came over last weekend. They'll play pretty independently with my daugther, but in their independence they all decided to get the paints out and start making creations. Luckily, since we could keep an eye on them from the dining room where we were sitting, we knew what was going on and could put some rules in place to keep the painting under control (because oh-my-goodness the mess that was in progress!)

Which reminds me, we've also found Flor tiles awesome for the playroom "rug." That way, when sparkle paint gets spilled, you can just swap out one and be good to go.

You are going to regret it if you don't have some type of playroom directly off the main area. Basement is great or second floor but not till your kids are older like 6 years +. Little ones come with LOTS of big plastic toys and then lots of toys with tiny pieces - think Legos, Barbies, Hot Wheels, etc. Storage works great but as a few mentioned above, kids aren't always 'done' and like to leave things in place for days, weeks. I'd highly recommend a playroom with door(s) you can close to hide the chaos! We converted our useless sunroom into a playroom and it has been ideal. It's right off the great room with double doors that can be closed off.

Take that living room that will not get used - really it won't, and divide it somehow between the family room and a playroom.

I don't actually think you need a separate play area for the littles, just creative toy storage in one of the main living areas until they're older and can play independently wherever you put the play room.

I agree with the posters that say a separate playroom is helpful. we have storage etc, but kids play and leave their train tables up or their lego tables and such.

No arguments about the awful pantry. We had it changed before we even started this thread.

I'd go with something like this, which gives you a way to get groceries into the pantry without carrying them around the corner and through the kitchen's main workway; however, as shown, it's too close to the back door and would create a bottleneck:

I don't like to store food in cabinets. First, it's easy to "lose things" in the back of a dark cabinet. Second, cabinets are expensive storage, whereas pantry shelves are very cheap to build. I'd gladly give up some cabinet space to get more pantry.

The living room is the room we question. I'm sure we'll sit and read in
it cause it's there and nice, but obviously not entertain formally every
week. But we want to be able to entertain away from the kitchen &
family room. Should we shrink it a couple feet and add that to the used
every day family room? Definitely worth debating, but it's the first
room people see coming in after the foyer; should it be small? I think
the proportions of the house would be off if we shrunk the foyer and
living room a lot, and you entered into our large house and saw such
small spaces. But we're here for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 100th opinions, so
feel free to disagree.

The Not So Big House series has been recommended over and over. It will address this issue -- in detail -- with photographs.

That just didn't make sense to us.

The #1 thing that just doesn't make sense is moving forward with a project when you're not 100% dead sold on the house. And I don't hear that from you. Whatever sunk costs you have in these plans, the building of the house will be exponentially more -- so don't hurry.

playroom

So in addition to the great room - living room - study - basement, we're talking about a playroom? I think the real issue here is that the OP hasn't really defined how each room will be used -- aside from expressing a desire for an adult space and a children's space. THAT is the issue.

If you have a nice wall of cabinets in the family room, it could contain toys for now, and it would be convenient for toddlers while the parents are cooking. Or you could contain toys in the study for now and later it could become a teen space or an actual study. Or you could have an all-toys-to-bedrooms-by-dinner rule. The mudroom is big enough to contain a desk and work space, and it's convenient to the kitchen. All sorts of things could work ... but more rooms, more rooms, more rooms without definition isn't the right answer.

Will each space have a TV?

Where will books and board games be stored?

Where will the kids have video games one day?

Where is a quiet place for an adult to sit and read or work?

Where can a kid practice a musical instrument?

Once you clearly define how each room will be used, you can efficiently decide how much space each room needs. I'm not convinced that's really been addressed.

Bingo on multiple points. Mrs Pete is being very wise here and you will find your home, whatever you choose, more of a fit for your needs if you listen.