You're welcome Bayarea-girl. The choice whether to retain a particularly "needy" plant is completely personal. I coddled Angel Face for years because of the color, scent and beauty it COULD provide, as long as I catered to its needs. I completely understand why someone would want to provide it the extra care. I have done that for many years to one of the most intractable roses ever introduced - Grey Pearl. Everything in Nature exists for a purpose. Rust (and black spot) are "geriatric diseases" as they primarily affect aging foliage. Mildew is a juvenile disease as it affects new growth first. Rust is actually used by Nature to trigger many species to stop their juvenile stage, cease flowering (ovulating) and trying to reproduce. R. Arkansana utilizes the increasing sunlight and warmth of spring to put the melting snow and winter/spring rains to use, triggering its "reproductive stage". It begins pushing new growth and flower buds along the previous year's growth in its effort to set seed and reproduce itself. Reproduction and perpetuation of the species are the "Prime Directive" in Nature. As long as those light, temperature and moisture levels continue, it (and many other once flowering types) continue pushing new growth, new flowers, in pursuit of that goal. As the year progresses, the sun rises higher in the sky. Heat intensifies and water begins to run short, making maintaining that growth and flowering push more of a strain on the plant. If it continued using its dwindling resources growing and flowering without preparing for the harsher winter conditions, it would either completely use them up prematurely and die, or enter the extremes of the winter weather where it is indigenous, unprepared for hard freezes and be killed by them. As the heat increases and water becomes increasingly scarce, it appears the plant's immune system is impaired and the species contracts rust to a rather heavy degree. The fungi impairs the plant's ability to feed itself, triggering it to begin "hardening off", altering the sap to conserve the moisture and nutrients it has absorbed and generated when conditions were better for it to push its growth. Hardening off conditions it to withstand greatly reduced light levels and much greater cold. Nature uses rust (and some other triggers) to "tell" Arkansana to stop expanding, stop reproducing, ripen its seeds and prepare to shut down for winter. You will see the same mechanisms at work with many weeds and other desirable ornamentals. Petty Spurge, a common "weed" member of the Euphorbia family, as well as many Oxalis follow the same cycle of growing until triggered to rust badly and shut down until better conditions arrive. It is entirely possible the contraction of rust by other types might be used similarly and be caused by similar triggers. I attempted to grow R. Arkansana in a large pot here in my garden. It suckers vigorously. I didn't want a yard full of the plant, nor did I want to have to irrigate a large stand of one type. I knew Arkansana's mature foliage rusts in fall, but I didn't expect the brand new foliage to rust immediately after unfurling, particularly in spring when nothing else was rusting. I theorized that it contracts the disease "in the wild" due to decreasing water, so I increased the water to that pot. The old, rusty foliage fell and was replaced by new, healthy foliage all over the plant. As long as I continued providing heavier water to it, the plant grew and flowered without contracting rust. Long before anything else in the garden showed any signs of rust, I cut back the water to my Arkansana. It began rusting almost immediately. Increasing the water again resulted in new, healthy foliage pushing all over the plant. As soon as I cut back the water again, even the new foliage developed rust. Arkansana has gone on to someone else's garden where it can enjoy greater water, more room and conditions closer to its natural habitat. I've grown a number of the Canadian cold hardy Arkansana hybrids. All but one performed the same way. As long as I provided the extra water and never permitted them to experience water stress, they grew and flowered well and remained healthy. As soon as they began stressing for water, all but Morden Blush rusted badly, very quickly. Morden Blush remained completely healthy in this climate. I really loved the whimsical veining and stippling in Morden Ruby's flowers, but I could not keep the foliage rust free unless I chemically treated it, something I refuse to do for a variety of personal reasons. So, that one is no longer in my garden. Eliminating water stress in this climate and my soil is virtually impossible. Varieties which can't endure that stress without quickly contracting rust simply aren't suitable for the variables I garden under. One of my favorite miniatures to use for breeding is Cal Poly. It is extremely fertile, thornless, accepts a wide variety of pollen, generates many very viable seeds and produces many thornless offspring. I grow them potted to make protecting their hips from squirrels and other rodents easier and to make access to their flowers for pollination more convenient. I quickly learned not to allow their pots to dry out too far or they rusted quickly. Grown in the ground, they've never rusted for me anywhere I've grown them. When I have rust (or other disease issues) on seedling roses I raise, I experiment with water levels in hopes of discovering whether that might make a difference in their health. Most often, it does. Of course, each variety, each seedling, varies quite a bit in its natural resistance to disease. Particular garden conditions as well as climate differences play enormous parts in the probability a variety may contract a disease. One of the easiest to control in your efforts to diagnose the cause of the infection is how much water, when and how the plant receives it. I would bet starting with that would help figure out whether the plant is suitable for where you are, the conditions you can't change and your preferences whether to chemically treat the infection or not. It has streamlined that determination for me greatly. Kim

I too get PM once in a while. I keep a can of Lysol spray in my plant supplies. Most advice says to spray above the plant and let it drift down, thus avoiding a cold spray. I make sure the affected area is thoroughly wetted. You could also spray into a container to get the liquid and 'paint' on with a q-tip. The blossoms will be marked if the spray gets on them. Barbara

Here's some info on what EXEL is and what makes it work. Phosphorous Acid Fungicides Explained by John Hartman and Kenny Seebold, Extension Plant Pathologists Kentucky fruit and vegetable growers may have noticed that phosphorous acid has been listed for management of several fruit diseases in recent editions of the commercial tree fruit and small fruit spray guides and management of several vegetable diseases on recent product labels. Some County Extension Agents and growers have been curious to know how they work. Parts of the following material was adapted from an insightful article written by Annemiek Schilder, Michigan State University Plant Pathologist, and was published in the Michigan State University Fruit Crop Advisory Team Alert, Vol. 20, No. 5, May 10, 2005. Phosphorous acid fungicides Recently, a number of new fungicides that have phosphorous acid as the active ingredient have come on the market. Other names sometimes used for this group are phosphonates or phosphites. Commercial products in this group may include ProPhyt, Phostrol® and Agri-Fos®. Aliette® (fosetyl-Al), an older fungicide, is the prototype for this group of fungicides. However, the long-standing patent on Aliette® had prevented similar fungicides from being developed until recently. In Australia, where the patent did not apply, growers have been using the phosphorous acid fungicides for over a decade. Phosphorous acid is not fertilizer. The term "phosphorous acid" should not be confused with phosphoric acid or phosphorus (P), a fertilizer component. In fertilizers, P is normally found in the form of phosphoric acid (H3PO4), which readily disassociates to release hydrogen phosphate (HPO4-2) and dihydrogen phosphate (H2PO4 - ). Both of these ions may be taken up by the plant and are mobile once inside the plant. Phosphorous acid is H3PO3. A single letter difference in the name of a chemical compound can make a major difference in its properties. Phosphorous acid releases the phosphonate ion (HPO3 2; also called phosphite) upon disassociation. Phosphonate is easily taken up and translocated inside the plant. Phosphorous acid does not get converted into phosphate, which is the primary source of P for plants. Because phosphorous acid and its derivatives do not get metabolized in plants, they are fairly stable and probably contribute little or nothing to P nutritional needs of the plants. Some researchers have investigated the ability of phosphorous acid to act as a nutrient source for plant growth and found that P deficiency symptoms developed with phosphorous acid as the sole source of P. This means that although phosphorous acid can control diseases, it is not a substitute for P fertilization. The inverse is also true: phosphate is an excellent source of P for plant growth, but is unable to control diseases other than improving the general health of the crop. So applying high amounts of P fertilizer will not work as a disease control measure. Diseases managed with phosphorous acid. Researchers have found that phosphorous acid fungicides are especially effective against Oomycete pathogens, such as Phytophthora, Pythium, and downy mildews in a number of crops. Our fruit spray guides list Phytophthora collar rot and root rot of tree fruits, blueberries, and brambles; strawberry red stele and leather rot; and grape downy mildew as targets for phosphorous acid fungicides. Phosphorous acid is labeled for use on brassicas (broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower); cucurbits; edible legumes; Solanaceous crops (eggplant, pepper, potato, tomato, and tobacco); onions; and a number of leafy vegetables for management of diseases caused by Phytophthora, Pythium, Rhizoctonia, and Fusarium spp. Downy mildews of these crops are also listed on product labels. Materials containing phosphorous acid, in general, have performed best against Phytophthora blight and downy mildews. Preventive applications were more effective in reducing season-long severity of disease than those applied after disease onset. Phosphorous acid has a direct and possibly an indirect effect on these pathogens. It inhibits a particular metabolic process (oxidative phosphorylation). In addition, some evidence suggests that phosphorous acid has an indirect effect by stimulating the plants natural defense response against pathogen attack. This probably explains the much broader spectrum of activity observed in many fungicide efficacy trials. In fruit crops, it has been found, for instance, that ProPhyt had efficacy against downy mildew, Phomopsis cane and leaf spot, and black rot (but not much against powdery mildew) in grapes. There is also evidence of activity of these compounds against anthracnose in blueberries. The phosphonate ion is highly systemic and fairly stable in plants. The systemic activity allows them to be applied as foliar fungicides for prevention of Phytophthora and Pythium root rots. They may also display some curative activity. In general, applications every 14 days seem to be effective in grapes, but follow label directions. These fungicides are sold as solutions of potassium and/or sodium salts of phosphorous acid. To compare them, one should look at the phosphorous acid equivalent, which should be listed on the label. Fungicide precautions. Phosphorous acid fungicide prices range from about $25 to $35 per gallon, and the application rate ranges from 2 to 5 pt/ acre ($6.25 to $22 per acre, depending on the product and rate). Under high disease pressure, higher rates may need to be used and spray intervals tightened. These fungicides are formulated in salt form, so care must be taken not to exceed a certain concentration, as crop injury may result. In addition, if the concentration is too high, the pH may become so low that in tank mixes with copper products (particularly copper hydroxide such as Kocide), too much copper will become available and result in crop injury. I just ordered some AgriFos and intend on using it as a foliar. As you can see from the above article it's hard to explain the greening up of Ray's tomato plants and more research is needed. What interested me in EXEL is it's organic nature and it would make an excellent partner when teamed up with Actinovate. Using Actinovate as a subsoil fungicide and EXEL as an foliar fungicide that would have a faster knock-down effect on fungus and it's systemic properties. My only concern with EXEL is as a soil drench as I do not know the effect it will have on the microorganisms in the rhizophere, ie mycorrhiza. Further study is required. Ray definitely like you hand held electric sprayer. I bought something similar from the spray-n-grow folks but it had a quart container that was separate from the spray head and connected with a tube. Get yourself some NIMH batteries with a charger rather than using alkaline batteries and it will save you a few bucks in the long run. I would like to thank Ray for his interest in testing some of the products I have mentioned to him. It helps us all to have someone test these products in an unbiased manner and report the results for everybody to see. You are doing us all a great service. Ami

if you havent already.. separate the plants as best you can ... read a bunch of these: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=potassium+bicarbonate+homemade+fungicide&t=ffcm&ia=web by the time you read thru a couple.. you ought to get the jist ... do not spray in sun ... or on hot days ... etc .. all the general rules .. adding actual leaf damage/burn to your problems wont accomplish much .... and here is a truism.. many say.. you arent a green thumb.. until you have killed every plant.. 3 times ... so if you lose ... so be it ... try again.. and trust me.. you will have learned something for the next time you try ... welcome to the forums... plz come back often ... ken ps: it is usually helpful to include your location.. big city name ... in this case.. im not sure if you are still holding these indoors ... as i would be here in MI ... or if they are already outside ... and if they are outside .. did you harden them off before they went outdoors ... can we rule out leaf damage from shipping.. transplanting.. sunburn ....etc ... there are many things that should be ruled out.. before we start spraying them ... a pic might help ....