Our gardens are in completely different environments, but Maman Cochet came to mind when you described requiring a tea rose that does not need coddling. However, in zone 8a, it could become too large for the grouping number you desire for the bed, and I do not know about its blackspot resistance.

From your list, I would vote for Le Vesuve, Duchesse de Brabant, and G. Nabonnand. A 30' bed could be ample for 3 -4 of the roses on your list. I think 30' would not be enough space for 5 ( or at least it would not be here)....YMMV.

A bed of Duchesse de Brabant would be beautiful!!

Personally I like variety, but that's just me. My 'Mme. Antoine Mari' is about 6'x7' (unfed, unwatered). Teas as I know them will grow taller if given support than if grown without it. I can't comment on blackspot resistance as it's not a problem here.

From your
list, I only grow Madame Lambard, Mrs Dudley Cross and Duchesse de Brabant. Madame Lambard and DdB have been in the
ground about 5 years now. MDC was in a
pot for two years and just went in the ground last year.

Out of all
my teas, Madame Lambard is the only one that doesn’t blackspot at all. She always has super clean foliage and is a
profuse bloomer. Zero dieback on this
one during those two recent back-to-back “polar vortex” winters. Tough as nails, no maintenance rose here in
hot, humid Zone 7B North Alabama. I don’t prune her at all since she gets no
dieback. Right now, she’s about 6 ft x 6
ft. She may get much larger over the years,
but could probably be kept to this size with pruning if space restrictions
required it. The only negative I can say
about ML is that she’s not fragrant to my nose.

DdB died
back to almost ground level during the first polar vortex winter here and has struggled
to put on size since. She didn’t dieback
the next vortex winter, but remained a runt with little growth the following year. Even though our past two winters have been
very mild, she is only around 3 ft x 3 ft now.
In your milder zone or if I had started over with a new one after the
cold damage, she might be much bigger now, but my current specimen is a slow
grower. Also, her blooms often ball and
rot during spring and early summer, but once it gets really hot here, despite
the high humidity, they open without issue, are beautiful and nicely fragrant. Mine is not as quick on repeat as ML, but
again that could be that it’s still recovering.
Some bs here, but not to the point of defoliation.

Mrs. Dudley
Cross is a couple of years younger, and didn’t go directly into the ground like
the other two. She’s still in that awkward
tea growth phase…around 4 ft wide, but only two ft tall. Blooms do start out creamy, pale yellow, but
quickly “tan” to a pink that is at least as dark as DdB’s bloom color and are
also nicely fragrant. New growth is red,
so that would look pretty against a white fence background. Mine gets some bs, but not to point of
defoliation.

Just an FYI on the Maman Cochet suggestion, mine suffers a lot of
blackspot here and early season blooms tend to ball/rot without opening. I keep her for the beautiful, violet scented
blooms I get from mid-season on, but she is not a pretty bush in my garden.

Full bush
shot of Madame Lambard that I took over the weekend…sorry for poor quality
picture, but gives you an idea of size/form:

New growth
is red on her, but quickly turns green

And bush is
so thick that the red new growth isn’t that noticeable overall

Mrs Dudley
Cross’ new growth stays red longer and is a nice, noticeable contrast on my
young plant…not sure if she will get so thick in time that it isn’t as
noticeable

And an aged
bloom from over the weekend showing MDC’s darker pink color…not the prettiest of pictures, but I was just happy to have blooms that stayed uneaten long enough
to age during JB season that I was snapping shots of most anything.

All your comments are so helpful! My first venture into teas here was a disaster; I used the dimensions on hmf and everything was hopelessly crowded. Had to do it over!

Melissa, what a great idea to provide support and try to get them growing more upright. Mme. Antoine Mari stays small here; we are surrounded by z7 so it may just be too cold for her. Same with Duchesse de Brabant, never thought to blame our cold winters but she barely gets to 4 feet for us.

Desertgarden, great words of caution about not over planting. Our Mrs. B R Cant grew rather quickly to 12 x 8 feet; had to take her out. Sure wish there were a public garden near here with more antique roses. I'm just clueless about sizes.

Pat, thanks so much for that bush shot of Mme. Lambard; she was recommended by Pat at RU and your comment on hardiness clinches a spot for her. Also love seeing how Mrs. Dudley Cross flushes in the sun. We grew her in too much shade and we didn't see her pretty blush!

I think I need to look into widening the bed; it is bordered by lawn and it should be possible to make it deeper. The heat index is 106 here but I am still digging day lilies out every day...!

Madame Lambard has been one of my tallest and fastest-growing roses and I highly recommend it. Le Vesuve grows very wide for me and the spines are wicked. Mrs. Dudley Cross is beautiful but it did mildew for me. Rosette Delizy is tall and upright and disease-free for me, but my climate is vastly different. Mme. Antoine Mari is also spreading rather than tall, and the blooms don't last well.

1. Our climates are so different, I shouldn't even comment. <G>

But have you looked into 'Mutabilis'? Because she defines "colorful." And she can get that big easily (in my experience. So refer to Paragraph 1.)

2. How about Niles Cochet and Maman Cochet? No problem with them achieving the size you want.

Oh yes! We have both Mutabilis and Le Vesuve in the existing antique rose garden and they are thriving. Mutabilis is blooming very well with less than six hours of sun; Le Vesuve has easily eight feet of space; I use a cobra hoe to weed under her.

Jeri, I love the looks of the Cochets but was afraid the blooms would ball in this climate. I've not tried Baroness Henriette de Snoy for the same reason. Humidity will be at 60-70% all week.

I'll give another vote for Madame Lombard- tough as nails- everything Pat said is true for me too.

Also Mutabilis is a great rose I think for what you have in mind.

My DDB died from voles, so I cannot help on that one.

So if four would fit-- Mutabilis, G Nabonnand, Mme. Lambard, Mrs. Dudley Cross? (The fact that every other rose is thornless figures into this idea!!!)

The east end of this bed is shady, and has a gardenia underplanted with white anemones. So effectively there will be 5 shrubs, 4 of them roses.

Now i'm seriously going to get accurate measurements to determine if 4 will fit!

Meanwhile keep the comments coming-- we need reasonably cold-hardy and want teas with large blooms for maximum impact on visitors driving down the access road.

Was thinking Monsieur Tillier might be a good candidate, too? Not overly thorny,
gets tall, profuse bright blooms (blooms are small in high heat, but so many
they are still quite noticeable), very bs resistant and cold hardy here

Pat, Monsieur Tillier blooms are not only small but completely crispy during our summer heat. However I love the his color and repeat bloom. He is the focal point of the existing antique rose garden which is beyond this picket fence. Our plant is from ARE and is viciously thorny, but thorns aren't hooked like Mrs. BR Cant and Le Vesuve.

So if you were to look over the top of the fence you'd see Le Vesuve, then beyond her Mme. Antoine, then Pink Pet (pchsd as Caldwell Pink), then Monsieur Tillier towering in the background.

In spite of the summer crisping I'd put Monsieur Tillier in the top five for our climate; great foliage health and almost continuous bloom. And vigor. My How I Love Vigor!!

You have Caldwell Pink, right? We have Natchitoches Noisette in the bed with Caldwell Pink. NN blooms a lot earlier and in mid summer is exactly the same color. The original antique garden is now in a lot of shade and NN seems to tolerate it better than most.

Hmm...I will have to check the thorniness of my MT this weekend…I really thought it to be low thorn. I'm pretty sure mine is from Rose Petals. It will crisp some, but fresh blooms seem to always be opening up to take the place of the fried ones. It's in partial shade, so maybe that helps with the crisping, too. It and Madame Lombard are definitely my best teas for bs resistance. Devoniensis & Clementina Carbonieri are new for me this year…hoping those will be good, too. Curious what others are in your top 5? In general, my Chinas and some polys seem to be much better about disease resistance than my teas & noisettes. Yes, I do have Caldwell Pink/Pink Pet…three of them from Petals from the Past….and one Natchitoches Noisette, also from Petals from the Past (it’s drivable distance from me). My Caldwell Pinks do start blooming a little later, but then they are bloom machines. They often throw out some long, floppy canes like they want to climb…weird looking since the majority of the bush is rather short and rounded, so I’m frequently having to snip those back. NN is a very good rose for me overall, but its blackspot resistance isn’t great here.

Thanks Pat, you're the best! Eager to hear about Devoniensis and Clementina Carbonieri, esp. since I think our climates are similar. At 3 pm we were 97 degrees and 66% humidity, heat index 115. Hot week!

The first 30 years I grew roses, I didn't grow any teas at all. But over the last 10 years I've made up for it growing them at home and at two gardens where I volunteer. Given the company here on this forum, only 10 years experience makes me a newbie doesn't it!

But so far, these are my faves: Le Vesuve, Monsieur Tillier, Mrs. BR Cant, Mme. Antoine Mari, and (new this year) G Nabonnand. My early selections were influenced by the Earthkind list, so I suspect as my tastes continue to develop (!) Mme. Antoine Mari will be displaced.

In other classes, Mutabilis, Ducher and Jean Bach Sisley for Chinas. Reve d'Or, Alister Stella McLain and Natchitoches Noisette for noisettes. Perle d'Or and Marie Pavie for Polys. And here in the south I will never be without Mystic Beauty but what do I know, I've never grown SDLM!

OMG so many teas so little time ( and so little room!)

We aren’t coastal, but our temps and humidity are similar…low 90’s here today and
humidity dropped to mid-60s from horrifically high the past couple of weeks.

I only grew moderns my first 25 years of rosing, but discovered a love of the
antiques mostly through Petals from the Past and this forum a few years back…so
I’m even more of a newbie to them. I still have lots of moderns in my older beds, but most of my original ones have been or are being replaced with the newer, highly bs resistant Kordes and such. My antique beds are full now, but I will be replacing the HPs and others that bs badly with more teas and chinas once I finish the modern bed overhauls. If you like reds, Louis Philippe and Archduke Charles are great here (although ADC did die back to the ground that first polar vortex winter, but that was his first year planted…no issues since). Cecile Brunner has also been stellar for me.

I love Natchitoches Noisette, whose blooms kinda float above the foliage and it seems to be shade tolerant. We do get some dieback after bad winters but pruning it out is easy since (at least ours) is thornless.

Having second thoughts about Mutabilis, might substitute NN. Mutabilis is wonderful viewed close up but this hedge is for passing traffic..

Brainstorm! I am going to widen the central portion of this bed to 9 feet to better accommodate the teas. Despite the probably awkward growth I just have to have Dr. Grill too; I can put him on the end.

Elsewhere in the antique garden we are adding a second Souv. de St. Anne's (she'll be with NN and Caldwell Pink (aka Pink Pet); and Jean Bach Sisley will join Le Vesuve and Mme. Antoine Mari.

The county agent has suggested germander and rosemary as companions; they should be easy to keep to size.

The previous post above listing my favorites inspired me to add Perle d'Or to the order. I will selfishly keep that one at home as a pot pet, companion to Jude, Peach Drift and Distant Thunder. So looking forward to those silky little ribbon-petals!

I am in a really humid hot climate in NE FL. There is a small river behind our property and we aren't far from the St John's River and the Atlantic. SO very humid lol. Rains almost every day at least enough to steam things up during the summer.

Anyways, I have Rosette Delizy in the ground. I had her in a pot for a year and a half then put her in the ground this spring. Very minimal black spot and she is growing really well (mostly outwards for now) and full of flowers. I really like her. I also have Mrs B R Cant nearby (not too close lol) and she has no black spot and really doing well. I have Maman Cochet Cl and White Maman Cochet Cl. Both are doing really well with no black spot at all. I am especially loving the vigorous White Maman Cochet.

Not especially colorful, but Marechal Niel loves it here and has turned into a huge beast. You may like to try that one just because it does so well in the humid heat.

I confess I have overlooked Maman Cochet but suspect if I ever see her in person I will be a GONER. Was really turned off by reports of balling; same thing with SDLM which I don't grow for the same reason.

So I guess I never went thru the entries in hmf (how could this be, I never even looked?) and now that I have all I can say is, wow.

One of the best places to see old teas here is Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond, Virginia. I need to go on the prowl, I'll bet she is there somewhere..

I suppose it depends on your zone, but my rosemary gets huge, about 4 x 5, and I'm not even sure it's done growing yet. I could never plant it among the roses, that's for sure.

I have old rosemary bushes here which have grown in excess of 6x10 feet...

We have a good 3 months of winter chill, during which rosemary just sits there. I have one at home which I've kept to 3X3 with relentless pruning. Clearly it would outgrow the space if I let it...

Thanks for the heads-up. Rosemary looks so innocent in a 4 inch pot--!

We are only planning a total of two rosemary plants; since it grows to shrub-size I wouldn't dream of planting more.

Anybody out there have any experience with germander? Our county agent has a tendency to recommend things he hasn't actually grown...

It's all climate dependent. Rosemary here grows in the winter and sulks during the summer.

I am also in a very hot and humid part of Texas and SDLM has never balled so you should give her a try, plus she takes the heat like a champ. Love this rose!

Boncrow66, do you have the climbing SDLM or the shrub? I have been wanting to try SDLM Cl. Its good to know that she does well.

I got MAC (Madame Alfred Carrière) last year from A Reverence for Roses nursery. she is a huge monster and has constant blooms and never balls. Her foliage is always beautiful. I had her in full sun but now since the season has changed and the surrounding Live Oaks got larger, she gets some morning shade till about noon and still flowering like crazy. I think she is excellent for hot humid climates. She has been full of Zebra Longwing, Monarchs, and Gulf fritillary butterflies lately. She seems to attract them more than the other roses around her.

I have the shrub but would like to have the climbing version too.

I have grown germander (Teucrium chamaedrys) is that the one you mean? It's about 7 to 9 inches tall here, evergreen with scented foliage. We used it as a miniature hedge in a knot garden (very simple design).

Cath

We started with:

Caldwell Pink (Pink Pet)

Cornelia

Mutabilis

Natchitoches Noisette

Souvenir de St. Anne's

The above four all doing well with less than 6 hours of sun.

Le Vesuve

Mme. Antoini Mari

Monsieur Tillier

Mrs. B R Cant (lost in the big freeze) was 8X12

All four of these teas are doing well for us. Oddly, Georgetown Tea and Duchesse de Brabant did not do well. I think the garden just got too shady for them.

On the sunny bank by the fence we added:

Dr. Grill

G. Nabonnand

Mme. Lambard

Mrs. Dudley Cross

The Earthkind program recommends teas be placed on 8 foot centers and that's what we did, to ensure good air circulation. The bed will look sparse for a while, I guess!

Thank you all for your help.

That sounds like a beautiful selection, Barbara; I hope they'll grow well and continue to flourish for you. Just out of interest (and I apologise if I've missed it somewhere along the line) may I ask what part of the world you and this garden are?

The rose sold as Dr Grill here is not a very large tea, but I think what you have in the US may be something different.

What did you decide on for your companion plantings in the end? I was thinking dwarf lavenders should do well in your climate, if it's anything like the UK, and if roses and lavender aren't too much of a cliche... (I rather like some cliches... ) :-)

barbarag, just FWIW, 'Maman Cochet' and 'SdlM' do not ball here. I wouldn't think of them as colorful Teas, but you may want to try them elsewhere in your garden...

Comtesse, I''m not sure, but there may be more than one rose offered as 'Docteur Grill' here in the U.S. I'm trying to figure out who offers what. Does the 'Dr Grill' in Oz look like this?

Virginia

Virginia, perhaps you're trying the wrong Lavandula. Read through this article -- there are some other kinds you can try. Goodwin Creek Gardens has a large inventory, as does Joy Creek Nursery. Basically, avoid Lavandula angustifolia cultivars in your climate. Some Lavandula x intermedia cultivars may work. You'd do well with Lavandula stoechas and Lavandula x heterophylla cultivars. If you want to zone-push a touch, Lavandula dentata cultivars might be worth a try. And check out the miscellaneous hybrids and species for zone ranges.

:-)

~Christopher

VIrginia, the source of my Dr. Grill is Roses Unlimited but I don't know where their stock is from. Bill Patterson has been quoted saying it is his favorite tea!

Until I've seen all three seasons of bloom I really won't know WHAT color he is here. I'm expecting mostly lilac pink with deeper rose-pink guard petals, but that is based on his first two blooms.

Christopher, thanks for the lavender info! I knew some that would work in north Texas highly alkaline soils but am clueless for our acid soils in this more humid climate.

Comtesse, companions will be a couple rosemarys, germander, and hardy geraniums in keeping with the antique theme. I would also like to find a yellow daisy, nothing fancy. It would echo yellow of leopard plant (farfugia) and sundrops we have elsewhere in the garden.

Christopher, I forgot to mention that the real problem is that I don't have much full sun real estate on offer... Most of our property has dappled sun; the few full-sun areas are in a spot where it's hard to dig to plant. Maybe in large clay pots?

Honestly, though, it's not a huge priority. I like lavender, but don't feel passionate about trying to grow it in an area it's not really meant to live. And it's just hard to grow low-water plants when we get so much rain. Rosemary doesn't like it here either... it survives, but does not thrive... probably the acidic soil doesn't help matters much.

Thanks for the tips, though. Someday, I might just try the Spanish or French lavender just to see what happens.

Virginia

barbarag, I wonder if something like this sage might work for both of us as a lavender subsitute? Of course, it wouldn't have the fragrance of lavender...

Virginia, I hear you. The reason that info was at my fingertips is because I was dallying with the idea of having potted lavender in some areas here. I, too, have acidic clay and more rain and humidity than they'd like, so I figured that making a potting mix to their preferences would work -- and keeping them potted would allow for better air circulation. What information I found is that sharply-draining potting mix with a top layer of white limestone rocks would suit them just perfectly. If I was to give it a try, I'd use 50% of my "magic mix" with 50% oyster shell grit. I suppose digging a hole in the ground and filling with that would provide similar results, but my sunny spots in the ground are too full.

:-)

~Christopher

Virginia, re 'Dr Grill', I can't really recall the leaves or buds, but the blooms I do remember as being distinctly paler/ less vibrant overall than your illustration - a palest ivory or blush white background deepening into delicate washes of warm pinks and yellows like those illustrated. But I'm guessing your illustration may be taken from a European - perhaps French or English source? That might explain the deeper colouring. I may have only/ mainly seen them on warm/ hot days in Australia, in temperatures unknown in northern climes. I would think it could well be the same rose.

Wandering the overflowing beds and aisles of teas and other old roses I was often drawn to this rose's particular subtle beauty, but on discovering who he was, was put off by the less than delicate/ romantic sounding name! In that, he instantly dropped a place from top to second level in my mental scale of 'must have'/ perfect roses... fool that I was...

FWIW, I believe Adam in Western Australia had one, that may be the same as 'my' remembered Ross Roses 'Dr Grill', but I don't recall if it was one of the selection he brought with him from the old house.

Comtesse, it does sound slightly better if you call him 'Docteur', but yes, it's not a swooningly romantic handle like yours. I would love to name a rose for you, but don't you think it should be the offspring of 'Queen of Bedders'? Sadly, no longer in commerce in the U.S.

Yes, the illustration is from The Garden (1890), and the coloring has probably yellowed a bit with age, so it's likely the same rose that you recall.

Virginia