"Wondering if the fabricator always involves the customer"

Depends on the fabricator from what I understand. BUT at the end of the day it is you money, I would insist on it 100%, nobody likes surprises...........

Millworkman I hear you and agree! I don't want a surprise but I don't hear many people talk about it much unless the stone has a special movement/inclusion they want included in a particular area like the island.

I forget what you are using, but we were present for the layout of the templates when our granite was installed. Ours does have movement and character that mattered to us where it went. If it is a uniform pattern as in many quartz products or some granites with a uniform small pattern, then it likely isn't that important.

I will say that no one will be cutting into any of my three slabs without me personally signing off on where the templates go. Of course mine is a very colorful and busy quartzite so it does matter.

If it's not a busy pattern with no discernible pattern, then it shouldn't matter.

Sure you have the right to request it.

I requested it and was able to be there for templating.

I asked and chose where the cutting was done during templating.

You can read posts about unhappy posters who would have avoided those problems with both template(take pictures) and final quality inspection before getting delivery to your site. Set the terms with your fabricator now.

Our fabricator charged $200 for the customer to come to their facility and approve the templating. We decided it might be worth it and it was, The guy who came to our house assured us they would take some special features of the stone into account when they did the layout but no they didn't. We ended up moving their template around so we got those included.

Wow, never heard of being charged to check and give approval for a template. A good fabricator should have no problem with the customer checking the layout and approving where the seams will be.

Charged you, and 200 bucks??!! Ridiculous!

Quartz can sometimes have odd marks so you do want to go. My slab had a white drip that I thought looked like bird poop so they templated around it.

Our fabricator came to the house on four occasions to take two sets of measurements and create two templates. And he invited us to the shop to watch them position the paper templates on the slabs. Despite all that, they still $crewed up (uneven overhangs -- 1/2" variance in a 6-foot run -- cut off too much stone, leaving a > 1/2" gap at our main window, etc.). Take lots of pictures and ask for a copy of everything you sign-off on. Good luck!

@desert gardener. Wow that's a rip off that they charge you to see the templating.

This topic has been discussed quite a bit on this Forum. As Dan1888 said above, many people find out too late that they should have gone to the templating layout. It's a must.

I have been to three granite templating layouts for 3 kitchens. I cannot imagine not going to it. In my experience a good fabricator wants the customer to be there, to avoid any problem during the installation when the customer might say, "why are you installing that section there?" Or, "that's not the part I wanted cut out for the sink" or the like. I think if a fabricator doesn't want the customer there, it should raise alarm bells of "why not?"

We have also seen on this forum a number of switcheroos reported - the customer picks out the perfect slab at the stoneyard, but when the installation happens, it's not the same slab. Visiting your slab at the fabricator's before it's cut would either avoid this, or if your slab is already gone, you have more warning and time to pick something else out than if you don't find out until the guys show up at your house.

"if it is a uniform pattern as in many quartz products or some granites with a uniform small pattern, then it likely isn't that important."

We have seen a number of stories on this forum of man-made counters like quartz which arrived at the homeowners kitchen with one or more resin pools. There is a certain amount of those blobs allowed by the manufacturer (do a search on this forum if you want more detail). The only way to make sure your island doesn't have a resin pool blob where you don't want it is to be at the templating layout. As for granites with uniform patterns, they still nevertheless will have differences in shades, from lighter to darker, and you might not like how it was laid out when you weren't there to give input.

Any kind of charge to be present at the template layout should be grounds for calling the Better Business Bureau. Desert Gardener, I have been on this forum for many years, and that is the first I've heard of a charge for going to the fabricator's.

Ours asked me to be there and I'm very glad. Our Glacier White has a lot of flecks, streaks and it had some very dark areas I did not care for. They were wonderful in moving the large template pieces around until we found the perfect placements. They even showed me where they would match seams.

GC said he "never heard of anyone going that." Fortunately, I learned about it from GW. Fabricator had no problem with it, and was very helpful in trying out different choices.

As I mentioned you should also approve the quality of the seam cuts. Some on here have shown significant chipping with the fill very evident when the installers do the joining . Do not let the pieces be delivered without a careful inspection of all edge work.

Ask if they use a seam setter to pull the slabs together. You should get a very tight seam with quartz if they use it.

Elizabeth Nothanks - please tell me you have photos! :)

It depends on the particulates and "movement" in the material. If you have a fine particulate with no movement, there is nothing to position or debate so being there for template is a waste of time.

On the opposite extreme, if you have a stone with huge particulates and lots of movement, you'd be best to pick a fabricator with Slabsmith technology. He photographs the stone and can manipulate the templates over the slabs on a monitor for your approval before a blade ever kisses a slab.

I do not agree with Joseph's post that if there is fine particulate there is nothing to debate and going to the fabricator's is a waste of time. No it's not. Think of how much money you are spending on this counter. Please see linked thread below in which the homeowner received a quartz counter that was different from what she thought she ordered.

In addition, none of the fabricators I've used had "Slabsmith technology" that Joseph mentions. Do not turn away from a good fabricator because of this! My fabricators were really great, and did the layout the old-fashioned way. We stood in front of the slab and they put the forms onto the slab in different ways until we found what looked best.

Thread called Variations in Quartz sample vs. slab

For people who want an interesting read, here is a thread on quartz resin pools and variations in quartz. The OP of this thread was not given the option of going to the fabricator for the layout:

[Thread called Need Advice Badly[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/need-advice-badly-what-should-i-do-about-my-countertop-dsvw-vd~1182371)

fredajune:

Mawizz specifically asked "...I would like to see prior to cutting..."

Slabsmith technology provides exactly what she is asking for. Are there great fabricators without the technology? Sure, but this thread is about lowering risk and Slabsmith drops risk to nearly zero. How can you complain on install day when the fabricator has your signature on pictures of your seams taken before they were cut?

I wonder how many slabs of quartz you've seen vs. the installed counter. There can be resin drops and smears, black and other off-colored dots, resin pools, etc. These can really stand out on a counter with little movement.

I doubt those things are viewable with Slabsmith and you sure wouldn't want them smack dab in the center of your counter. We know most fabricators won't take the time to template around them unless the customer requests it, so you have to protect yourself.

I'd complain if he used an old blade and chipped out the angle cuts. Or mismeasured those so one side was longer. You have to ok quality before you let them bring it for the install. Retain the power to make sure all is right without any extra pressure.

Thank you all for the great feedback! Very much appreciated. I got nervous when the guys were walking out the door with templates in hand and said the stone might be cut the next morning with no invitation to meet for template layout. Then thought about the money I spent for the slabs and quickly said I would like to see how the templates would be laid out prior to cut. They said sure we'll call you before they cut, but there is nothing to really see.

Didn't hear anything from them so called first thing this am. They said meet us in 30 minutes it's scheduled for Monday cut. OMG so glad I went! even tho I picked quartz, this one I chose from Aurea Stone is so much like real marble ... best I've seen. there is definitely no uniform pattern with very random veining like real marble... both slabs. It's soft veining but some areas more than others. I'm so glad I was there to help layout as I'm having a lot cut and wanted some veining in all pieces. DH and I just decided to go ahead with the butlers pantry/dry bar addition and today confirmed we had enough material for that and the guys even offered to cut the rest for our half bath. Yay! Very little waste! They too actually were really surprised when they pulled the slabs out that it was not real marble even grabbed a piece of Carrara marble nearby and put it next to it to compare. I should have taken a picture. Darn. I'm very very happy with it! Really pretty! It took about an hour to layout and I even changed my mind which slab to use for the island and we had to start over. Ugh. I think they wanted to kill me. One guy jokingly said we're gonna have to charge you more for the time. Um No I don't think so!

@dan good suggestion on pictures! Thanks I did that and great advice to go before delivery to check it out including edge. Hope I can remember all this. I actually still have questions. Do they do faucet hole and soap on site? Also he said they always do 1/4 reveal is that the way to go? I had zero with my last granite and liked it. Geez this is a full time job watching over all these trades!

@desert Gardner I think my guys were thinking charging for the time was a good idea :/

@idecor54 there was little discussion on seams as I will only have one small at sink. That is there preference over a long one. I have have the sink seam before and don't mind just hope it's done well!

@mayflowers didnt see odd marks but did decide one area that was more dark veining than the rest and in center of the island, I knew it would bug me so hence we moved the island on the other slab ... geez glad I had 2 and could work around! I didn't see your second post about seam setters til I was home...shoot I will ask. Not sure if slabsmith could do either? My dark spot wasn't a resin pool but again I didn't want to look at that darker veining area right in the middle all the time and in this case wouldn't mind if it were off center somewhere else. I actually like some odd markings ... makes it more realistic.

@javiwa they only came once ... made the templates out of what they told me was door skin? Once they were made they hot glued them all down with small dabs to check for accuracy. Praying for no screw ups ... is that possible ?

@freidajune sorry if it's a redundant topic ... I couldn't find anything where it was a question to go or not. Now I know :) your right it is a must. You bring up very good points that should be considered with such a big investment. Thanks for the article links. I'll read over tonight.

@elizabeth nothanks that's hilarious and would have been dreadful!

@mdln never heard of that? Seriously?! I definitely see the need for it now. But I'm just realizing I didn't do that for my granite and it turned out perfect but it was pretty uniform. They didn't ask me to come then either!

@joe no slabsmith technology that I saw these guys are old school but I bet that would be something I would really like! It's quite a fabrication shop tho with tons of slab work being done in a huge shop and probably about 25 employees working on different stones. Been in business over 30 years. I was drooling over some of the marble work :)

"It took about an hour to layout and I even changed my mind which slab to use for the island and we had to start over. Ugh. I think they wanted to kill me. One guy jokingly said we're gonna have to charge you more for the time. Um No I don't think so!"

I disagree. Suppose it had taken you 4 hours instead of 1? How much time does a fabricator have to donate on a job to keep a customer happy? I'd have no problem telling a customer you've go another 45 minutes on us, but after that, it's $150.00 an hour or here's your deposit back.

Were I the fabricator, I'd look at the donated time as my penalty for not properly assessing the sophistication level of my customer. Picky's on the top shelf. We've got plenty, but it costs more.

As a fabricator who uses slab-smith i would not want to fabricate with out it again. It makes for easy layouts without having to manipulate slabs other than upon reception and fabrication. It does how ever create its own set of problems.
The software is great for home owners who want to approve their layout prior to production with out having to visit the shop. However it does not have the image quality to see small defects like resin pooling or impurities in small particulate quartz. Despite not being able to view any thing other than vein flow clients still demand to have a layout sent to them for approval even though it's a solid grain quartz. When you try to meet client demands with a 5 day turnaround and they sit on their sign off for 2 days it's no longer going to be possible to respect the delay which creates negativity before we even cut. Next you have the physicality of fabrication versus the moving layouts around on a software program. The slabs are photographed on a fixed location that is calibrated to the saw. If the person photographing the slab places the slab a 1/4" off the corner of the frame your layout is now a 1/4" off from the picture approved. (Incase you didn't know slabs are heavy and difficult to manoeuvre with pin point accuracy) This may not sound like much but when you come to install and the homeowner is greeting you at the door with a print out of the layout in hand and wants exactly what's on that photo because the people on the internet says it's going to be 100% perfect with slab-smith their will be some negativity. Next the operator of the saw has to with pin point accuracy place the slab on his table to assure the cuts align perfect with the layout. (If the photo stations placement is off 1/4" and the saw operators placement is off 1/4" we now have 1/2" difference from the photo approved. Now every one is on their game and does a perfect placement the pieces to be cut are oversized by 3/16" per edge (3/8 over all) for the cnc to pass tooling of wall scribes, polishing bits and seams. This creates a problem for movement lining up across seams. If you have a vein running through your seam on a angle after the cnc the vein is now off 3/16" from the other side of your seam. Also when placing the pieces on the cnc if they place a bit more to one side than the other it's now off too.
Slabsmith is a great software for layouts but is not 100% a representation of the grain flow over a seam. You will see on that photo a very close representation of the layout of your kitchen but when it comes to install your standing over that seam with a measuring tape in one hand and the photo in the other because you read on the internet 100% perfect with fabricators using slabsmith you are not being reasonable.

As for this thread your fabricator did a hack job and needs to make it right to your standards. You are not unreasonable.

@graniteguru my fabricator didn't even cut yet ?

Thanks for the info tho!

Joe I should probably clarify that hour included moving the slabs, laying it out two different ways and marking. I honestly didn't think it took that long and I don't think that is unreasonable. However, if a company wants to charge for it that's there prerogative and if that was told to me prior to ...fine I have no problem with that, but not after the fact. I think they just wanted to whine a bit ;)

MaWhizz - there's another thread currently just a couple down from yours asking about a problematic quartz installation. It could be that graniteguru was responding to that one at the same time.

Never heard of Slabsmith till now. My counter layout done with the wood (plywood maybe?) forms. I was at the fabricator about 1/2 hour looking at the ways to do it, but I just had one slab, no island, but there was a really cool chunky part I wanted to see next to the sink where I spend most of my time. The counters were perfect, I was very happy, especially since my walls are totally wonky. All done without Slabsmith and a very good experience.

(p.s. I think some of the 1/2 hour was taken up with gabbing, exchanging pleasantries, bottled waters all around, etc. My SO's dad worked for Kohler back in the day, so we talked about that a bit. My impression was that socializing and gabbing was considered an integral part of the layout visit :) )

ma wiz

oh boy thanks! went from posing on one thread to another with having to leave half way through comment for 30 min is a result of that lol sorry!

M miller I agree graniteguru probably meant to post there :)

Glad to hear you had similiar experience. That's funny you put the chunky part next to the sink because that's where I had the guys put the darker spot that was first going to be on the island and bothered me there. Mine will be left of the sink. I like those odd spots too :) Please post pics when your done! What kind of sink are you doing? Please chime in to my sink post.

Lol posted at same time graniteguru...no worrries.

I'm sorry, but fabrication is expensive and these countertops are expensive and so I don't see how working with a customer to make sure they like the templating is "donating time." Are you saying that people spending thousands of dollars on countertops should just take it however the fabricator decides (which would likely be whatever is most convenient for him and never mind how it looks in the end or if the customer likes it)?

There are several people in the trades on this board who seem to have rather dim views of their customers. I don't understand this because you make your living off of these people. I do understand that some people are more difficult than others, but that's how it goes, right? I interact with my clients every day that I'm at work. So, I do understand how some people can be, but...there are so many threads on here with photos of stuff that's really not acceptable.

My Dad worked in construction. He did work for both general contractors and for individual homeowners. He took pride in his work, did a good job and wanted his customers to be happy with the work he did. He had no problem taking time to make sure these things happened and he worked REALLY hard, often in unpleasant weather, to produce a good quality finished product. I never heard him complain about anything...not the heat that he worked in over the summers, the lack of bathroom facilities on many of his jobsites, the condition his job left his hands in, etc. He never complained that his customers wanted a good job or that he had to spend time with them. He also didn't gouge people or charge more when he was busy. He didn't call any of his customers a PITA or try to charge anyone a PITA fee or anything like that.

I see many tradesmen, contractors, etc., these days, who seem to have really big egos, look down on their customers, try to take advantage of customers whenever they can, who feel entitled to be paid a lot of money for a minimum amount of work (or poor quality work), who refuse to take hard jobs because they are only looking to do what's easy, and who take no pride in their finished product. I'm not saying this is anyone here, but I am saying that you often seem pretty quick to criticize the customers, who are paying a lot of money and who mostly just want a good job in exchange for their money.

Overall, I've been very disappointed with most of the people I've hired to do work on my home. No, I've not hired anywhere near the cheapest guys and, yes, I've been willing to pay for someone who does quality work. You can jump to calling me a PITA, if you want, but then we could talk about how much I've paid/been willing to pay (much more per hour than my husband or I have ever earned and we make a decent living) and I have photos to show the poor quality of work these guys have tried to leave us with. We could also talk about the way some of these men have acted in my home (regarding bathroom facilities that I provided, the use of my refrigerator/icemaker, etc.) and about the shocking lack of any work ethic (sheer laziness and lack of any pride in their work, not caring about the quality of their work and trying to take advantage of us in many ways, including by trying to pass off horrible quality work as perfectly fine/a good job) some of them have displayed. We could also talk about the various lies we've been told by multiple people we've talked to about doing jobs. Thank goodness we know enough to mostly prevent ourselves from being taken advantage of...

Then, we could talk about the experiences of a good friend who is a single woman and how everyone she has hired over the past 15 years (and she's paid them a LOT and has never tried to hire anyone on the cheap) has basically taken advantage of her, charging a LOT and then doing subpar work.

Things have changed, and not for the better. It seems that you can't trust anyone these days. I'd NEVER pay thousands of dollars for new countertops and then not be present for both templating and installation. If someone tried to charge me for that, I would find someone else. If I couldn't find someone else, I'd put in countertops myself (tile, butcherblock or maybe cut soapstone myself--which is what a family member did and it looks beautiful) before I'd allow myself to be treated that way.

veggiegardnr:

I have a 4.63 customer satisfaction rating out of a possible 5 on homeadvisor based on over 300 reviews over a decade. You don't get that kind of approval by not delivering fairness and value and not knowing which customers aren't right for you.

The other day I had a guy call me and start telling me not just what he wanted done, but how to do it. He would have done it himself, blah, blah, blah and he had a buddy that would do it , but blah, blah, blah. He redlined my "customer beware" meter. I have enough experience to know when I'm speaking to trouble on the phone. I came right out and told this guy he was scaring me and we parted ways. Thankfully.

Of course going the extra mile is a cost of doing business, but contractors must know when they're being taken advantage of also.

Amen veggiegardnr I definitely am paying enough with the fabrication alone to participate in the templating. I just wonder if they purposely don't ask people because they would rather not have them come or they get picky people like me they want to avoid ;) too bad! part of doing business. But it seems if someone asks to be a part of it they are fine with it. I would think they would always want customers to come and check it out like millwork said no one likes surprises. Bad for both parties. And as customer I don't want to hear any whining about wanting extra money after templating. Ok maybe they really were joking but if they weren't. That time should just be included in the cost to do the fabrication as I've learned from all the comments above and now having done it myself. It should just be part of the procedure or breakout the cost of the templating appointment ahead of time and spell out a time constraint if need be if customers having abused it etc. I have no problem paying more to get exactly what I want but I want to know what I'm getting and I want to know what I'm paying for ahead of time. Again no surprises.

" I have no problem paying more to get exactly what I want but I want to know what I'm getting and I want to know what I'm paying for ahead of time."

Fair enough.

You can do the preliminary layout yourself with your phone or better cam. Take slab photos with a measuring tape included. Put pieces of tape on bad spots. Go to Walmart and get 11x14s($5.86ea) and start working out what will work. Once your satisfied move on to going over this with your fabricator.

Yeah, just have fabricator's customers wandering around their slab yard taking pictures and putting tape here and there. They can play "dodge the forklift" while they're there. Great idea. They can probably move those slabs by themselves for more taping and picture taking. No need to bother anyone.

@dan that's a great suggestion and I forgot to share ... I did something similar! But not as technical ;)

the night before I met the guys for templating I went to the slab pics on my phone Under photos and used the markup tool box to roughly draw out where each piece would go on each slab and then I used the text feature to label each section and then printed and brought to templating. It was helpful and saved some time but the only problem I had was that my quartz does not photograph well because of the translucency and I had taken the pics when they were holding the slabs outside. If I had known about this process I would have taken better pics of each in the warehouse! Next time! :D