Sorry, let me start over the correct two are: What do you get when you pollinate a diploid (2n=38) tree with hexaploid (2n=114) tree pollen, and vice versa? What do you get if you then backcross those two resulting hybrids with the original diploid (2n=38) tree? I read a little more and I think the hybrids of the above would be (2n=76), right? Would this hybrid have viable seed and pollen? And does it have a name (ie. hexaploid, diploid etc.)? I guessing the backcross would be (2n=57) right? Same on the backcross, Would this hybrid have viable seed and pollen? And does it have a name (ie. hexaploid, diploid etc.)? Any help would be very appreciated in this, I'm new to hybridizing and very interested.

Not quite the same. Likely, they crossed one parent of the hybrid to something else with a trait they wanted. Then they crossed that back to the origional parent, likely more than once, selecting in each generation. Then they would have inbred and selected. Then made testcrosses to see how hybrids of the new parent do. So the new hybrid might be as little as 1% different from the origional, but the diference should be significant, at least under some conditions. Or it might be as much as 25% different. I can't imagine anything more different than that being given the same name, but I think it would be legal. Walter

I particularly like Squiggly; the color seems like a nice blend, and the form is indeed squiggly. What is the size of each of these? I didn't realize that the registration forms are so involved. I do know that some hybridizers are notorious for not registering their plants.

You're welcome. I'm glad I could help simplify it for you. Some feel diploids are easier to work with and obtain the objective traits as there are fewer genes involved. Some believe diploids are more cold hardy. It's long been believed triploids are sterile and won't result in further advancement due to their uneven pairings. Those may be true, but for every rule there is an exception. It's been by deliberately using triploids I have succeeded in raising as many hybrids from R. Minutifolia as I have. Few have worked with it and until the results I posted to HMF, there were no documented results from working with it. What the benefits may turn out to be, who knows? But it was a species no one had succeeded with before and now I've shown it can be achieved. Many others have either unwittingly or knowingly used fertile triploids to good effect. Austin's Rugosa results were due to fertile triploids. He managed to add Conrad Ferdinand Meyer to his line without any obvious traits visible, at least in the beginning. Raising self seedlings from them express the Rugosa characteristics, just as mine have expressed more Minutifolia character. If you want to be able to see the evidence more easily, mating diploid with diploid may be easier, but it may be more difficult to get the cross to take. If you're attempting to create something which repeats and has more modern garden "character", straight diploid to diploid crosses will likely result in a much longer time required to create what you desire. This is something I discussed with Ralph Moore many years ago. I wondered about the benefit of mating ploidy with ploidy. He stated he was aware of the gene counts he was using and found it "interesting", but otherwise paid little attention to it. His quote was, "the rose will find the way". I think his results speak for themselves. My results have reinforced his advice, at least in my opinion. Crossing diploid seed parents with diploid Minutifolia pollen resulted in few seeds and only one seedling, which was extremely weak and terribly mildew prone. It grew for a short time then died. Using a mini Jim Sproul, who created the Eyeconic Lemonade series of Hulthemia hybrids (among quite a few others!), raised and shared with me, resulted in many Hugonis and Minutifolia hybrids and demonstrated it is very likely a fertile triploid. Sometimes looking at other plant types can be a bit instructive. If you're familiar with diploid and tetraploid day lilies, you can easily see how diploids are primarily deciduous and spring flowering, while the tetras have heavier, more durable, more evergreen foliage with larger flowers over a much longer period and in a much wider ranger of colors, sizes and petal counts. Diploids, having fewer genes, will have fewer characteristics and genes to modify them than higher levels. They are "simpler". Think early China roses in comparison to floribundas and HTs. You can choose to pay as much attention to the ploidies you use as you desire. That's up to you and what interests you. There is no right or wrong way, other than to select what does well where you are and seems appropriate to lead you in the direction you want to go. This is where a Premium Membership to HMF is really beneficial. You really do need to know what is behind (or, in the cases of earlier types whose backgrounds are unknown, what resulted from them) whatever you decide to use so you don't follow lines with too much inbreeding. Much of the disease and vigor problems we have dealt with over the past few decades with Hybrid Teas and some floribundas resulted from too much inbreeding. Adhering to "line breeding", where you mate parents to offspring and siblings to siblings can help fix traits you desire, homogenizing the genes so offspring are more likely to express the traits you seek, but there are many other characteristics which become homogenized, too, and most of those are not desirable. Early breeding along Pernetiana lines resulted in plants which would flower beautifully, then defoliate completely, before growing new foliage, flower then "go bald". Joe Winchell (Dolly Parton, Lynn Anderson, Rosie O'Donnell, etc.) was well known for line breeding to fix that high-centered flower shape as his prime goal was to raise exhibition HT form flowers. He also homogenized semi climbing growth and increased disease susceptibility in many of his results. Choose your goals wisely and strive to select parents which are as unrelated as possible. As good dog breeders realized many years ago, "recessives are forever". Once you "fix", isolate, homogenize for a fault or weakness so instead of a beneficial dominant is paired with an undesirable recessive, you have two undesirable recessive genes paired so the undesirable trait comes through regularly, it's virtually impossible to breed past. If you decide to raise your own roses, just have fun! Make it as involved or as simple as you desire. If you seriously have goals you wish to shoot for, do buy a Premium Membership at HMF and research lineages so you can make more educated selections. Keep it FUN!