How much do you value having your kitchen done "on time"?

They will charge what the market is willing to pay. I wouldn't expect being your own GC for a kitchen remodel would be very difficult if you don't mind it taking a few weeks longer and your subs are reliable.

GC's probably need to leave room to fix problems, absorb fairly small changes requested by the homeowner even though they cost more, and to obviously make a profit.

Why is plumbing $4500? You said no structural changes. Are they just hooking up the sink/disposal and dishwasher? If they are moving plumbing pipes, explain.

Its very hard to know if these costs are reasonable without knowing (1) what they are for, and (2) where you live (not your address, but some location to give us an idea). Labor/installation costs in e.g. Boston will be drastically different from e.g. Des Moines.

Have you gotten several quotes from each trade? I.e. a couple for each of plumbing, flooring, electrical, etc. That is the best way to gauge your costs.

you're not willing to become your own GC..believe me

you'll have your hands full without having to coordinate all the trades..that's a separate nightmare. you'll be there a lot without being your own GC..tons of time and energy

depends on location too..permits alone can run several K in CA where we are. and some states don't require permits at all, and some require some

they usually won't break quotes very precisely..they will to some degree, but it's not reasonable to expect a very detailed break down. It's like you go to a hairdresser for the color, highlights, haircut..he doesn't specify how much the color costs, the foil costs, and the salary of stylist who helps with color, and the salary of the lady who washes hair, etcetera..

and it's crazy in the building industry right now, that's true. so that's a factor too. they lost many people during recession..they're in shortage..and jobs are plenty. So it's the market too. They charge because right now the can..and maybe need too, to keep their trusted trades available. It's hard to find good people. I realize it sounds very Flannery O'Connor..)) I don't mean it this pessimistic..but it's true. Our GC kept some of his best people on a regular salary, as not to loose them to others..

Ask for a cost plus contract if that's the case.

Also the price the GC is quoting you, does that include the cost of the cabinets and installation? In other words are you paying separately from the GC to have the cabinets installed or is he purchasing the cabinets for you and overseeing the installation of the subs?

For example, I'm building a new home. I went out and found the cabinets myself and priced them out. Same with my granite. However, I'm not purchasing the cabinets and granite myself. My builder is so yes, he is responsible.

Have you looked at different types of contractors? We have a GC we have used for years for multiple projects. When we started talking about the kitchen remodel we assumed we would use him, but as we worked through design and got pricing from him on different options I just felt the labor costs were too high (we are buying the cabinets, sink and appliances, his people are installing them as well as changing out the floors, doing electrical, drywall work, etc.). I ended up putting the project on hold and getting quotes from several other companies recommended to me by various sources. What I found was that the GC's who sub everything were 33% to 50% higher than the companies where the person who owns the company is doing the work with his own employees and subbing out only specific parts (hardwood floors for example). We are just on the front end of the project so I can't say how the end result will turn out, but we are going with one of the less expensive companies. I have called references and gone out and seen their work, so hopefully we will get the quality we did from the GC we used to use. Changing to someone new is scary for me but I couldn't justify paying so much more. I however wasn't willing to be my own GC, I need someone more knowledgeable to work with.

GC's do not pick the lowest bidder for the various work involved. They pick the guys with whom they have a relationship, and who will actually do the job correctly, and on time. That value to the overall job is worth the added costs associated. Your 1K electrician may blow you off completely when it comes time to schedule him. Or he might be very literal in his interpretation of where you want the light relocated, which leads to a daisy chain of other problems that you do not foresee from that ''simple'' relocation.

A GC's $1200 electrician gets 100K of work from the GC, so he shows up on time. He also tells the GC about why what you are asking for is a bad idea, and shows where it will cause issues that will cost you money to fix. He helps to find a solution to those issues before ever starting the job, because if he didn't, the GC wouldn't use him again.

If all you ever look for is the lowest price, that is all you ever purchase. And all of the problems that brings to a job get purchased along with that cheap price. Especially if you cheap out on the design on the front end. A job with a homeowner providing no actual design documentation, or knowledgeable direction in either the design or GC role is very quick to get off track and cost much more than the ''expensive'' route of designer and GC team.

20K would be low, because you simply do not know what you do not know about planning a kitchen remodel. For instance, you need to reassess the electrical entirely for a better lighting plan that includes recessed lights and under cabinet lights. There are other aspects that need to be looked at in the light of the whole picture, which is what a KD will do. You can piecemeal something together, but do t be surprised when it results in a crazy quilt result that costs far more than if it were planned and documented properly in the beginning.

As aprilneverends said, contractors are extremely busy here, and they are throwing all kinds of numbers anyway. No matter what, I can't accept 50% upcharge from GC for their subs.

Everyone told the same thing about cabinets, saying I have to pay arm and leg to get what I wanted, but I finally found a really good local cabinet maker with extremely good reputation (they are used for multi million dollars home in Wellesely, MA), and I am getting even 3/4" with bead on frame (it is supposed to be much more expensive, which I saw only in Wood Mode top door type) in my main kitchen, but their quotes were even cheaper than all the dealers because they were very honest, family business without middlemen. They don't charge you more because you live in an expensive area or they just rip off people because they are very popular.

I will just have to wait for more to piece all together. I just was very angry because I really think some contractors try to rip off every chance they get because it's hard to standardize their price.

Have you looked at a home services type of company? That is what I used, more than a handyman but less than a general contractor.

He (and his employees) took care of my remodel -- removed old flooring (and they were going to install the new before I discovered the usable flooring under the linoleum), installed a 2nd window, moved the gas line for the stove, installed more outlets, installed new and more ceiling lights and switches, undercabinet lighting, installed the cabinets (their one flaw, should have had the cabinetmaker do it), installed the appliances, altered the under sink drain for the new sink and installed shut off valves which I didn't have before, removed a soffit, repaired the walls, and repaired previously cut door trim. His base crew did all the work except the wall repair. He was a licensed electrician too.

All that for $9k in central Ohio (and no KD used). I sourced and bought the cabinets, appliances, paint, lights and counter.

Wow, raee_gw zone 5b-6a, that's really nice price.

I really doubt that it would happen here. Very expensive labor here massachusetts.

I am not expecting cheap price. As far as market price goes, I know how much it cost for the subcontractors for my project. But a lot of GCs try to double that. On top of that they will charge 10K for changing one door, venting the hood etc (I am not even changing any windows).

But thanks for telling your experience, raee_gw zone 5b-6a. I am looking into all options and believe I can make it work as I did for cabinet shopping.

You didn't answer my question. Nor did you answer strob's question.

No GS doesn't buy nor install cabinets, cpartist. I am directly buying cabinets from the company and they will install themselves. GC is only doing some carpentry, coordinating subcontractors.

Didn't answer my question either. Why is your plumbing cost $4500 whem you said you aren't doing structural changes?

Flooring st $6000-7000 for a 300 s.f. kitchen seems really high too. Especially if the house is only 10 years old.. What kind of flooring are you putting in?

i do not think it's a good idea for you to be your own GC if you've never done a renovation before. I've done 2, with a GC who was very good, and learned an enormous amount. I have seen how I don't know what I don't know. I would caution you against it given your inexperience. Do not take that as a slight, this is a serious undertaking.

M Miller - Structural changes have nothing to do with plumbing. Removing a bearing wall is a structural work. Plenty of people change the location of their sinks and fridge (with waterline) yet don't make any structural changes.

Rigel - your answer to CP might hold the clue to the excessive GC fee of 50%. The GCs people typically do all the framing and carpentry work and cabinet install. With your set-up, the GC has to supervise (and be responsible) for the quality of the subs work (plumber/electrician), that means he has to send a foreman to the jobsite everyday, who will have no job of his own to do, other than supervise.

M Miller, Plumbing cost is that much because sink and cook top will be relocated. It has nothing to do with structural change, it's just the plumbing with re-piping (but basement is unfinished and all open and my plumber said it's not a lot of work).

Flooring is expensive because the first floor is almost all hardwood floor (connected), so entire 1st floor needs to be sanded and refinished. Only kitchen floor needs to be changed completely because it's not good at all. So 6 to 7 k is reasonable range.

I haven't done residential renovation but did some commercial build. That's how I know good subcontractors. I know becoming my own GC is difficult, just trying to avoid giving away extra 20k to a GC. Not sure what I would do but will keep researching.

modellie, yes but in our town, plumbing and electrical job need to be inspected. Especially my town is famous for very strict inspection standard. I doubt that they will do sub standard job in any case.

Also like I said, I have been working with this plumber and electrician before in commercial build, they are very good and expensive side. That's why I felt that I could be my own GC, but again I could be wrong and may just need to shell out 20K for peace of mind/insurance.

If my remodel didn't involve major structural work, I'd definitely be my own GC. The key is to understand the sequence specific jobs need to follow, and have trades that communicate, show up when promised and do quality work. That's lot's to ask for, sadly.

This will not make me popular with the pros around here, but I've concluded that most contractors are doing what they're doing because they couldn't keep any other job. Most seem to have really week communication skills, (that's if they bother to communicate at all), most could not work successfully in a team, and many of them aren't interested in learning new techniques or keeping up with changing industry standards. Plus, annoyingly, many of them walk out of unfinished projects, whenever a newer job comes along. I've never met so many shifty people than in construction. Plus, many seem full of resentment towards the home owners who pay their bills. Ughh!

Train wreck.

Can they not match the floors? Unless the rest of the first floor needs to be refinished, they can match the wood type and stain.

Obviously your mileage varies on ability/inclination to be your own GC. It will definitely take longer to finish the job. Do you care? We were OK doing the camping out thing, but it's just the 2 of us and we're both retired.

We liked being able to hire our own people for specialty jobs like electrical, plumbing, and flooring. DH functioned as electrician's helper by crawling around in the attic, passing wires through, and screwing recessed lighting cans in place as directed. The electrician helped us finalize exactly where stuff was going: new recessed lighting, adding pendants, placement and replacement of outlets and switches. He double checked and rewired so we could fit all our needs on the 100 amp service already in place vs having to upgrade to 200 amp. The plumber shared his philosophy of life with us (he's a big fan of "the wall") and came back a couple of times to get things done as needed. Excellent work all around. The electrical work came out to around $3700-odd in this expensive area, but it also included wiring in the attic and outside for the new HVAC, so not just kitchen.

One place you can save is to do your own demo. This depends on your being both physically capable and available. It also helps to have a way to get rid of the debris. We have a truck and trailer and hauled it to the dump ourselves, but you can also get the disposal company to bring out a bin. Having teenage or young adult children is helpful.

I'm not opposed to GCs, we were just comfortable doing it ourselves. You need to be comfortable with ongoing mess and relaxed schedules for this to work.

ericakn, I don't mind paying that much for flooring. That's not the point. Point is if GC subcontracts them, it becomes almost double. That's why I want to hire my own subcontractor.

I agree with modellie, there are a lot of shifty contractors out there. Of course, in any field there are bad people but it seems to me that there are more in contracting fields, at least I think so.

Modellie - my experiences with contractors have been pretty great. Of course, I interviewed carefully, checked references, did a lot of research beforehand. Also I myself was crystal clear on the work I needed. I am the kind of person who is decisive so I never had issues with waffling with the GC which understandably would have frustrated them and delayed all the trades. I cannot imagine dismissing an entire industry the way you have. I have worked with some really great guys who knew a lot. With a chip on your shoulder, I'd imagine there'd be problems from the outset. Your mentions of a pattern of contractors' resentment, the walking out on the job, the poor communication - I only wish I could hear their side of the story.

I think being a GC is a very difficult job, and very stressful. There is so much balancing and scheduling to do, and if one small glitch happens, the whole thing can fall apart. Also, they deserve to make a living; what you pay is their salary. I am kind of appalled at the horror over the $20-35k - that is not pure profit for the GC; they must subtract from that their costs, overhead, insurance, and the myriad of other expenses. After all that is their profit, out of which they have to put food on the table for their family. I don't know what you all do for a living, but I wonder if your employers become appalled at what you are making and decide to hire someone cheaper or remove the position entirely.

I think I've had one bad contractor - a plumber. I also had a bad installation of my front door, but then the contractor came back and re-did it. Other than that, it's been good, and often I've exchanged hugs with the guys at the end of the job.

Sophie, shame on you for saying "Train wreck." without citing a specific example. [Let me help you out, dear.[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/need-help-lazy-susan-wont-open-because-of-stove-dsvw-vd~4688195)

friedajune, I understand GC is a difficult job, but what isn't if you have a small business? That argument won't work with me or other people in any industry who has their own business.

I am a small business owner myself, working in a health care industry. It's extremely stressful. I need to pay employees salary, healthcare, retirements etc. Then need to manage scheduling patients, which is very expensive because I need to hire people because I don't have time to answer the phone. At least most of GCs that I met, they answered phone themselves.

Yes I need to pay tons of insurances for myself, for business, for employees.

Then I have a crazy amount of student loans, then business loans.

On top of that, so much regulation burdens that I need to comply, it gets worse and worse every single year, yes. It's not cheap to be complaint for all these regulations.

Sometimes it's not easy even to ends meet. But that's how the business works . I need to be efficient and work hard to be successful. Not because I just charge ridiculous money whenever I can.

Oh I forget one more, yes dealing with health insurance companies is a war itself

I think the key here is your mention of charging "ridiculous money". It seems you know very well all the many costs and expenses to run a business before you can make a profit. Why then do you consider what the GC is charging to be "ridiculous money"? If you find a different GC that costs a lot less, then perhaps the higher-priced GC is charging a ridiculous amount. Or, it could be that the cheaper GC hasn't a lot of experience, knowledge, or a good crew, and so is charging a lot less. You would have to rely in that case on references, Angies List reviews, and seeing examples of his work to know if the higher-cost GC is charging a ridiculous amount, or is charging an appropriate amount given his costs, his expertise and assessment of the work involved, and of course, his need to make a living.

With all that you've described going on in your work, how are you going to manage being the GC of your kitchen reno?

friedajune, yes I am trying to get reasonable GC with good references. I have one candidate right now. What I want is simple, I want them to tell me how much they mark up for managing subs etc, but among five I interviewed only one told me about that. I don't need detailed breakdown but at least they should tell me mark up. They don't tell me because their mark up is 50 to 100%. That's what it is.

You want a cost plus contract arrangement rather than a fixed price. That is the most expensive type of project to do because it shifts all if the risk of any unknowns completely to the homeowner. It requires a great deal of care be taken during the design documentation in order to have no issues during the build stage. It is very apparent that you have spent zero on an actual design. Be careful what you wish for here. A fixed price contract puts the major risk onto the contractor, and you know what the bottom line will be. Cost plus has no end to what the project can cost.

Sophie, I think I understand what you are saying about risk etc. And I would definitely do a fixed price as you say when I have to deal with something bigger, like addition or if major structural changes are involved.

I am not sure what you are saying about the design documentation, but only design involved is cabinet design here. Except moving cooktop and sink (2-3 feet), nothing really changes at all. Basically old cabinets are out, then put new ones in, that's it. Other things are painting the wall, redoing the floor (of course some electrical stuff like, moving outlets etc).

Thanks for your caution. I am trying to be careful. As with everything else, I guess it all depends on how much risk I am willing to take, and cover the backside just in case.

And that ''just'' proves that you have not had any professional help. Who is responsible for locating where the electrical outlets will be so they don't interfere with the cabinets or other elements? What obstacles are in the path where the electrical needs to go? Why wasn't an actual lighting plan done? Who is responsible for locating the plumbing drain, and will it still meet code with the added distance from the drain line?

Who actually looked over the cabinet design to be able to ensure that clearances were met, or that overhangs have proper engineering in the cabinet layout, or the right location for the required electrical outlets on peninsulas and islands was thought about?

A cabinet sales person is not a designer. You seem to be acting as the default designer without understanding that is what you are doing, and that makes you responsible if anything goes wrong here. Like the cabinet door cannot open because the range depth is greater than you figured.

A job that has neither a designer nor an actual experienced GC is doomed to take forever, and have many unexpected expenses. It is a recipe for a more expensive project, not a cheaper one.

Sophie, I am not acting a designer.

I don't even need to think about design fault or code violation because whatever I say to them, they are fanatical about clearance, violating any codes and etc, including the kitchen designers (three designers) and subcontractors that I talked to.

Anyway there are not many things to change to begin with. I don't change much of the layouts. I don't change windows. I don't change walls. Still everyone said I need permits for electrical, plumbing (of course) anyway because of strict regulation here.

I am not hiring people off the streets. Everyone knows about basic clearance, local codes when things are not changing much. I want to make it crystal clear. I am not trying to build a kitchen here from the scratch. I am trying to get new cabinets basically (with moving cooktop and sink with wide open unfinished basement in a modern home).

You are not understanding here. Who tells the electrician where that outlet goes? Who coordinates the cabinet layout with the electrical and plumbing. SOMEONE has to do that. If no one takes responsibility for that, you will have do overs that will cost you money.

Sophie I think I got the point. Will see what happens.

Thanks for everyone for your kind input. I will post the final kitchen after all is done. Most likely things will start in about three months, and hopefully done in six months.

Good or bad, I will share with pictures.

" I don't need detailed breakdown but at least they should tell me mark up. They don't tell me because their mark up is 50 to 100%. That's what it is."

How is their markup any of your business?

"Everyone knows about basic clearance,.."

[Is that so?[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/need-help-lazy-susan-wont-open-because-of-stove-dsvw-vd~4688195)

Miller,

Wow, what a lot of assumptions.

You really think you're the only one does research before hiring and checks up on references? In your post you manage to insinuate that you're "oh, so very perfect", you are crystal clear, decisive, not waffling and thereby frustrating the GC, which assured yuo the good experience. While I must have a chip on my shoulder, be guilty of being one of those horrible home owners who frustrate their GCs with waffling, and so bring out the worst in contractors.

Wow, you are very sure of yourself, aren't you? Pronouncing judgement on others quickly.

Nowhere in my post did I "dismiss an entire industry". I didn't state that all contractors behave unprofessionally. Sadly though, way, way too many do.

Of course there are wonderful GCs and many really great people in the trades out there. Some people find such a gem. Us included, by the way (many years ago). But, man, are they hard to find now. And with the construction industry being extremely busy, the bad apples seem to multiply exponentially, while good ones are almost impossible to find.

It doesn't help that our remodel is much more than just a kitchen do over, and so too much for kitchen remodelers, yet the job is too small for GCs who typically deal with adding 2nd floors or build whole houses.

That said, I’m convined that there are at least a dozen unprofessional, inept, flakey or shifty contractors for every decent GC out there. We came to this conclusion during our search for a GC this past year.

The contractors we met along the way - it boggles the mind, how unprofessional many of them behaved. Yet, all that we interviewed came highly recommended to us, either by friends, neighbors and co-workers, as well as by our kitchen designer, our architect and the structural engineer.

Of the GCs who indicated they were interested to work with us and requested Pdf plans and project details, at least 20% never responded after we emailed the documents. So, right off the bat, about 20% just leave potential clients hanging in limbo. In what other industry does this happen? I realize they're busy, but, a quick email or text is too much to ask for? They just couldn’t be bothered to shoot us a quick standard reply such as "So sorry, I can't take on another job at this time after all, please remember us in the future, good luck with your project”. So much for communication skills.

Others, met us at the house, arranging walk-throughs for their trades. At least two of those didn't show up for their appointments, while we had to take off from work, and waited. From one, we never heard of at all, the other called hours later: ”Sorry, I couldn't make it, let's try same day/time next week". He gave no reason, and no real apology. We politely declined.

The GCs and subs who we did meet were a diverse group indeed. Some appeared competent and professional. Others, not so much, and ranged from “just flakey" to incompetent, to presumptuous and/or arrogant.

Of the flakey bunch, one kept talking about the ugly divorce he was going through . At first we sympathized, but as he went on and on…. we wrote him off, as clearly he couln't focus on the project. Another one came to the walk-through by himself, assuring us that while non of his subs showed up as promised, they would be on time for work later on... and that at any rate the project was a piece of cake for him, literally, bragging how he would "set his own steel" and how he didn't need to bring his trades, as he knew how much they would be charging anyway.

Among other things we heard and experienced:

“ Listen to me: kitchen designers are know-nothings”.

A nasty rant against black people and home owners (while we’re lily white we don’t appreciate having to listen to bigoted rants).

One criticized the struct. engineers drawings: “You’ll see,I won't build it this way, I'l save you money and do it much better”.

Another one completely ignored any questions I had, engaging only with DH, who eventually asked him to answer my question, please.

Another one seemed pleasant enough until we gave him a tour through one of our 3 completed gut remodeled bathrooms, as he wanted to see the the level of finishes we were aiming for. He was impressed and wanted to know why we didn’t just hire the same contractor for the current job. When he learned we diy'd all 3 bathrooms over a period of a couple of years, his attitude changed suddenly and he started to actively look for things to criticize, making a couple of utterly unfounded remarks, such as "the skylights probably leak” and you must have screwed up the underfloor heat installation, the control switch isn’t lighted. (The skylights in question have been installed for 7 and 10 years respectively and of course they are not leaking) and when told that the floor heat works just fine but is turned off during summer, he made dismissive noises that indicated that he doubted that very much. What...? By the way, both our architect and the kitchen designers gave us high marks for all three bathrooms.

We eventually singled out the most promising GC, despite being one of the most expensive, but he came with glowing recommendations.

His presented us with a proposal in titled estimate, with material and labor and management fees separated that would lead to a Labor and Material contract.

The prices for the trades were higher compared to other proposals, his material, labor and managing fees were markedly higher though. Also, when we looked at the details, the estimate contained several charges for work that was not listed in the scope of work. One was for a $2000.- make-up air system + associated labor and management cost, despite the max.400CFM hood specified. In all we found charges in excess of $6000.- for materials and work that had not been specified in our detailed description of the project and was in fact superfluous. He wasn’t too happy about having to cross these items off the estimate, but did so, all the while signing every email with: “Respectfully yours”.

So, despite those red flags, we asked to see the actual contract. Well, we received the contract, but it was not the expected ”Labor and Materials contract”, he now sent us a contract that turned out to be a “fixed bid”.

That of course changed everything. So we went back to the original estimate and and examined it closer still. We hadn’t yet made final decisions on various fixtures, with the expectation that the cost of those would get adjusted either up or down, depending on actual cost with the Labor and Materials contract, After all the proposal was just an estimate. The GC had quoted them as a separate line item (including their trim) and had assigned a cost of $2800.- to them. During conversations with him, we had talked about a modernist exterior door w. an insert window and a single-pane glass interior door. We had naively assumed that the $2800.- was due mostly for thee exterior door cost, with ca. $400.- for the interior glass door and a negligible amount for trim. Ha! What a surprise when DH asked his office help, what type of doors her boss had spec’d. Well, we learned he had assigned just: $550.- for BOTH doors, leaving, unbelievably the princely sum of 2250.- for door TRIM!

Now it finally became clear to us how by bundling more expensive materials with inexpensive materials with negligible cost, on the same line item. It made it easy to hide grossly inflated prices of inexpensive materials. With the fixed bid, any door/ material upgrade would trigger more excessive change-order fees, an assured windfall for him.

I emailed him, asking him how he had arrived at this sum, as we hadn’t specified solid gold trim, Without batting an eye, he responded with a smiley, adding that the price was correct, as in addition to the door trim, the price also included trim for the 4 existing kitchen windows. Of course, as always he signed with “Respectfully yours”…

Well, that was the end of that.

He wasted months of our time, but luckily enough we escaped just in time.

If he had been upront about his being expensive, not sleazily hiding excessive pricing, we might have happily worked with him. He and especially his trades do beautiful work and typically do finish on time, etc. BUT, after finding out how he mislead us, how could we possibly trust him with ripping open our house? Just no!

What about his wonderful reputation? The many, many 5 star reviews?

We've come to believe that in our upscale neighborhood, people give great reviews to anyone finishing the job on time, without bothering them. As long as the jobsite gets cleaned up daily, the trades speak english, and the finished work is of decent quality, they won't admit to themselves or others that they've been misled and duped by the local star GC. They happily write their checks and the glowing reviews.

We on the other hand had to start over with our search for a GC. We finally found a competent guy who doesn't play games and who we trust to rip up our house. Work should start in a couple of weeks.

So far, so good.

"I've concluded that most contractors are doing what they're doing because they couldn't keep any other job. Most seem to have really week communication skills, (that's if they bother to communicate at all), most could not work successfully in a team, and many of them aren't interested in learning new techniques or keeping up with changing industry standards. Plus, annoyingly, many of them walk out of unfinished projects, whenever a newer job comes along. I've never met so many shifty people than in construction. Plus, many seem full of resentment towards the home owners who pay their bills. Ughh!"

Everything I wrote was in response to that. None of that has been my experience. Your second post served as emphasis and confirmation.

Modelie, my first contractor was very sneaky too. He introduced me a KD then later I found he is getting 15K from the cabinets if I buy from that KD. Obviously it was totally over priced. Luckily here where I live, it's easy to compare prices. I simply went to another KD to price out exactly the same thing. The funny thing is, I don't even understand why he thinks I wouldn't shop around. There are so many cabinet dealers to do free quotes.

Joseph Corlett, LLC, you are right, it's not my business how they do their business. Well, if they refuse to spell out basic breakdowns because it's their business how much they can charge (when they try to charge someone 40K), then I don't need to give my business to them. I am sure they will find plenty of "reasonable and good" rich customers who can shell out 40K.

Rigel Sh:

Let me give you a hint. Any potential customer who asks me for a breakdown of prices goes on instant double secret probation. A potential customer who asks my markup is done. Smart GC's are going to ask questions. Refuse to answer and we're done. The guy you want will not do business with you. We know your type and you're business death.

Joseph Corlett, LLC, that's Ok. You can choose your customers and i can choose whoever I want. There are plenty of fish, and no one put a gun on your or my head to do business.

Actually the guy I want just gave me proposal last night and he will do business with me. He is the only who was willing to explain, and at least breakdown for flooring cost even without being asked. Then his rest of price was very reasonable (not cheap, reasonable), so I didn't even ask further breakdowns.

Only drawback is he is so busy understandably, I might have to wait for a while.

Like I said above, when I was cabinet shopping, most of people were so negative and said I wouldn't get what I wanted within my price range, and behaved like they were the only people who sell the cabinets. Well, I got even better ones with cheaper price in a very reputable local shop. No one knows what's out there 100%, then they pretend to know everything and throw out the negativites.

Rigel Sh:

You're a price shopper, not a value shopper. That's fine, but I have nothing for you and your type. I make it my life's work to screen you and yours out. I've got some work scheduled for this week and two sinks waiting for installation, but nothing the week after. The people I want will appear. They always do. They are value, not price, shoppers. Good luck.

Thanks for your wishes, Joseph Corlett, LLC. Good luck to you too.

Not trying to jump into this fray, but I think what frustrates me most is that the very wide range of prices you get from contractors makes it difficult for me to determine what I should pay for the remodel. I am not a cost only shopper, but like many people cost is definitely a factor in what I can do. I would hope I fit into Joseph's value shopper as I want to pay a fair price for quality work, but I don't want to pay way over what I need to either.

The quotes we got for the kitchen remodel & floors ranged from $20k to $50k. Seriously. And that is not including the costs for the purchase of the cabinets, appliances, sink or tile backsplash. And this is for a small kitchen with no footprint change, no island, only structure change is making one small non-load bearing wall a half wall. That is a HUGE difference and makes it very hard for someone like me, with no real knowledge, to know which quote is a fair quote. In the end we decided to go with a guy that is local to us, gave a long list of references and I was able to go see some of his work. He is not the cheapest (and that is fine) but is on the less expensive end. Good choice? Bad choice? Time will tell.

When you don't have a written scope of work, along with a specifications list, and an already worked out design, you will get apples and kiwi fruit labor quotes. That is just one of the values of using a designer to put the project together for you.

As for the cabinet guys, and why a GC might prefer someone..

We had a huge gut remodel plus addition. Our contract was cost plus type as it fitted better our project and our MO..wasn't easy but I think, in the end, we like the result..with whatever's left of our hearts lol

Cabinets were on us. We decided to go fully custom. Actually our GC was very flexible and sometimes we'd go with somebody local if his bid was better(we did that with HVAC, roof insulation for example). With the cabinetry though he told us we can outsource it as well but he'd much rather work with a guy he knows and works with for years, and he thinks going with somebody else will make room for potential troubles-timing, everything will be harder to figure out..and he knows his guy is top-notch, and he's willing to ask him to do a discount for us.

We still got two quotes. Identical ones. To the "T". One from the cabinet maker we already knew, and knew he's a nice guy. One, from our GC's guy, with the discount. The discrepancy was 5 K for exactly same quote.

DH wanted to go with the cheaper quote, obviously

I spent a lot of time convincing him it has a potential to turn into a logistical disaster. The "cheaper" guy was nice, but our GC didn't know that. He didn't spend years building relationship with him. This guy wasn't on his speed dial. The GC was really worried that a new guy might not be as good, and it will reflect on his, GC's, reputation, since few things are as important and expensive part of a house as cabinetry and woodwork. In short I already could foresee him becoming resentful before even meeting the guy. It'd take them time to build this relationship. And it might work just fine, but I didn't want to risk it. It was huge headache as it already was. I didn't want to add to it.

So I managed to convince my DH and explain all this to him, and we went with 5 K more quote, and you know what?My DH who's a perfectionist himself in many ways, and it's not easy to get him just to praise something without first critiquing it, absolutely loves these cabinets, and wasn't sorry for a minute. It was obvious the guy (and his installer) were indeed top-notch.

Of course it was like to throw a dice..maybe we'd be very pleased with the guy we knew, and everything would be fine. That's not to say that whoever charges more has to be better always.

But some things in this business, they're about human relationships and all that follows. Including whom and why contractor wants for trades.

And sometimes he brings in a new team because he didn't like the other one, or they're not available, or they didn't like working with him, or schedules don't match anymore, something-and neither he nor you know how they work until they start.

So obviously he's gonna root for somebody he's deadly sure about.

We did meet a couple of very dishonest people while remodeling..to the point I couldn't believe it.

But we did meet many great guys too.

That field involves so many different people trying to work together, it's paramount to choose somebody you feel right working with. Bumps on the road are inevitable, almost..it's better to drive it with somebody you trust. And to realize that how and why contractors make their decisions about things depends on many factors, including the simplest and the most complicated one-human.

And if they miscalculate this factor in this business--it can cost them business too.

reading you-I consider myself lucky..we had our disagreements with our GC (two years together..not easy lol. it's like sharing a prison cell..)) but he was an extremely honest person.

I wish you luck in your remodel..you already have it, to a degree, since it's contained to kitchen..won't take two years..;)

Sophie - I had a written scope of work, it may have been basic but it laid out what we were asking for along with computer generated drawing of the layout and cabinet plan. I have the written quotes for all but the highest. The quotes all have the same work in them. The highest listened to what we wanted, asked the budget and told me he would be $50k for the work and would be our highest quote and didn't want to put the time in to quote it if we weren't willing to pay that. I thanked him and we went our separate ways.

Couple of things: 1st, in my experience contractors, whether general or sub, don't really charge on a markup basis. They look at the time it will take them for the job, and what that time is worth in the market at this time. The remodeling market is extremely strong right now, and lots of people are doing large projects (especially in mature markets like the Boston suburbs). So maybe option 1 is a 6 month job on which he'll gross $70k. If option 2 is to piece together 3 different 8 week kitchen only jobs, he has to gross 25k on each one (obviously I'm grossly simplifying here, but it's the general idea).

2nd, it is awfully hypocritical for someone in the healthcare industry to complain about the lack of transparency in pricing.