Changing low volt MR16 to G10 sockets using LED bulbs

prinesurf

6 years ago

Need help please and definitive info. I have read a lot of conflicting information.

I am wanting to change all my halogen bulbs to LED bulbs in my Low-volage lamps.

Current set up is (7) low voltage 4" nora lights cans using MR16 50W halogen bulbs.

I was thinking of switching them all to G10 sockets (since many have broken and need sockets replaced anyhow.)

My thinking is:

1) MR16 sockets are too fragile with the heat of halogen, so need replacing

2) G10 are more sturdy for halogen heat.

so my question is

1) do the G10 sockets and LED bulbs need a transformer?

if no, then do I bypass transformer and connect to the 110V? how?

if yes will the LEDs work with current transformer? or do I need to disconnect/bypass all transformers and put in a single transformer at the beginning of the line?

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Comments (5)

Joseph Futral
6 years ago
First, just to clarify, MR16 is not a socket type, it is the lamp type, specifically referencing the reflector. You can get MR16s with various style bases including G10.

Most LEDs used in household lighting are intrinsically low voltage DC, 12vDC being the most common. To work at household 110VAC (which is actually more like 120-125 these days. I've seen as high as 127v) they usually have built in transformers and rectifiers, which is why so many still get hot, though not as hot as halogens.

Whatever transformer you current system uses you can probably get direct replacement LEDs that will work well enough, though you may have to go to Amazon or some other supplier to get them.

On my range hood, I've had problems with LEDs not having enough draw to work properly with the current transformers (cheap transformers), so while you probably don't need to disconnect all your transformers, maybe putting one at the head of many would solve a problem like mine. I suggest simply trying it out "as is" first and save some labor until you need to.

That said, if you are willing to go to a bit of trouble to begin with, why not get a whole new system with dimming? LEDs don't currently work as well with typical household dimming without spending a good bit more money.

Just some thoughts,

Joe
prinesurf
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks Joe

1. to clarify I meant "change out my 12V MR16 GU5.3-base bulbs with a compatible LED GU5.3-base bulb".

2. I read (somewhere) and spoke to Nora and they said LED bulbs will not work with this Magnetic transformer or the 12V?? said would burn out early? after 1-9 months? is this because the transformer requires a minimum draw?

What say you?

Currently I have about 6 GU5.3 sockets that need replacing, I might have 3 transformers that need replacing too. (this is in other runs around the house)

I have about 5 test LED bulbs in now, and seem to work fine...

Because of the info in sentence 2, I was thinking I should change out all my sockets to GU10, and bi-pass the transformers. (however several folks pointed out the could be a safety issue?)

Could you comment on replacing with a whole new LED system? These are new construction recessed cans. (I'm not ripping out drywall) model NL-401-QAT

thank you everyone for your input.
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Mdod, you may be referring to my post. What wattage are the MR16s in your cabinet? The Philips 10 watt AmbientLED MR16s at Home Depot, which are rated at 435 lumens, are a fine replacement for 50 watt halogens - at least in my application. (Wall washers. I now have six of them, with two lower priority ones to go.) Their color temp is a bit 'whiter' than the halogens and they don't dim as low. Philips actually offers both warmer and cooler color temps under their EnduraLED line. But they need to be purchased from a lighting store. It is interesting to me that the AmbientLED 3000k MR16 is rated at 435 lumens, while the seemingly identical (both have the little built-in fans) EnduraLED 3000k is rated at 485 lumens. Guess they must do some 'binning', and sell the lower bin ones to Home Depot under the AmbientLED name. There are a number of other LED MR16s around. Most draw in the neighborhood of 3-4 watts, but have much lower light output (130-200 lumens). Cost wise, they are all in the $20-35 range. The above 10 watt Philips is $25.
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Even with out the converters, the LED lamp portion would probably be near $40. That is a substantial difference considering, that the AC/DC transformer need not be expensive. If a room has 8 recessed downlights, installing a single transformer into a wall (say, between the beams above the light dimmer) would be fine. The cheapest recessed LED downlight today is about $80 Â my room of 8 would cost $640, instead of $320 for LEDs without a transformer in each. If a separate small transformer was even $200, I'd still be well ahead... Heck, why is not there a single-gang sized transformer, with the dimmer (or switch) control outside? On its input there'd be 110V AC, and its output would be DC Â as much as the dimmer is set to... It could be used with the existing wiring ("retrofit"), because, if the switch-to-fixture cables were good enough for the 60-200Watts of an old incandescent bulb (the puny 10A-rating means 1100Watts!), they are certainly good enough for the low Watts of the LED fixtures. How do we get Steve Jobs interested in designing a beautiful, safe, economical, and ergonomic iDimmerÂ®?..
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I oversimplified my own comment. I should have said that current 12v recessed lighting in new construction is obsolete now with Soraa Gu10 and PAR20 products. No need anymore for 12v MR16 halogen. There are products like led string lights that are 12 or 24v with no line voltage alternative. So these products will still need a transformer. I think the correct approach today is to use line voltage fixtures as the first choice, and do 12v only where necessary. Keeping the recessed fixtures with Gu10 and PAR20/30/38 bases and purchasing amps separately better future proofs lighting. I suggest with Soraa to do some testing before buying a lot of bulbs. With non-soraa LEDs I use 2700K bulbs. But Soraa correctly illuminates saturated red, so I think most people will prefer the 3000K or even 4000K Soraa bulbs.
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Yes, then it's the low voltage transformer. I don't know what's what. With LEDs some people call transformers drivers and vice versa. I know MR16 GU5.3 bulbs need a low voltage fixture. Whatever the terms, they were saying low voltage halogen fixtures can fail prematurely because they are not made to handle the much lower wattage of the LED bulbs. I asked Chris if I would know right away if it the fixture would have a problem running an LED bulb and he said yes. But when I called USALights they said it could work fine in the beginning. Then I chatted with TotalTrackLighting.com that had what looked like the same fixture, only it was listed as an LED fixture. I asked if it had a special transformer to handle the lower wattage and he said it was the same as the halogen model only they offer compatible LED bulbs. But those bulbs are not high CRI. Here's the two fixtures: http://www.usalight.com/Theatrical-Track-Light-Low-Voltage-p/us-904w.htm http://www.totaltracklighting.com/led-white-theatrical-track-light-12v-mr16-cool-or-warm-white-kit.html They are inexpensive either way but USA Light even warns that their $65 track heads say they are for halogen only. I got inexpensive track light fixtures 20 years ago and I've still got half of the originals (but they are fading fast) so I'd like to avoid speding a ton on fixtures if I can. These have several vents that I figured would help in cooling. I have been wanting to replace them with LED for several years. I've looked at native LED fixtures but even models costing several hundred dollars do not have high CRI values. I thought I finally had something with this fixture and the Creative Green MR16 bulbs but I don't want to buy a bunch of bulbs,especially expensive Soraa bulbs, and find out the fixture fails right away. They said line voltage isn't a problem but there are very few reasonable options for high CRI bulbs in PAR 20 or MR16-G10 and they all put out far less lumens than my current 50 W halogen (at 800 lumens).
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Joseph Futral
6 years ago
Well, magnetic doesn't really have a bearing on this as far as I know. The only issue is not all transformers are created equal. I know guys who really enjoy designing and winding their own transformers. I prefer to buy mine ready made for the application (I like to build tube amps). but it does mean you are dealing with low volt AC and not DC. So the LED has to deal with the AC/DC conversion. I could also suffer from just cheaply made LEDs with my range hood.

That said, getting back to a previous point, I wouldn't disconnect the transformers and run all the lights off of one. Magnetic transformers like to be close to the target, so you have line length limitations.

And kind of in general, unless I plan on going back to rewire everything, I am not a big fan of modifying household electrical equipment. If you forget and sell the house, chances are someone will have to go back and back trace your handy work. Yeah, a safety issue.

I'm not a recessed lighting fan, so I don't keep up with the gear, but I know there are companies that sell retrofit replacements and systems. I don't imagine there would be any drywall ripping needed (though, having ripped out drywall myself, still an easy fix). But I would only look at that if I needed/wanted dimming. You need electronic dimming, not electrical dimming.

Maybe someone else can chime in on that.

Joe
prinesurf
4 years ago
Re opening this discussion... because I have some new issues with lighting. Please read original post...

For about a year now I have used LED MR16 bulbs in my LV cans with no modifications. I have had no major issues until recently.

-on one can, the base of the LED got really hot and showed some signs of melting. (not sure if this is happening in others)

-on another can the socket wires melted where it connected to the transformer wires.

Feedback I want is concerning safety. and what my options are dealing with these Low voltage NL-401-QAT recessed cans.

I would really love to rip every one of these cans out of my kitchen (15) because Im so tired of dealing with them (from the earlier issues with the halogen bulbs and sockets) to the new issues with LEDs. Im not even sure how I would do this, these are all new construction Nora Lighting cans with individual magnetic transformers.
Joseph Futral
4 years ago
I would say at that point, when safety is an obvious issue, call a licensed electrician.

Joe

Changing low volt MR16 to G10 sockets using LED bulbs

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Changing low volt MR16 to G10 sockets using LED bulbs

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Joseph Futral

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prinesurf
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