Another possibility: if you put your trash pullout(s) under the sink you could have drawers in the end of the island opening either towards the dishwasher or towards the stove.

Between the corner drawers and cook-top, there are 18" drawers.

Would it make sense to put the trash in the 18" drawers between the cooktop and corner drawers? The trash would be in the only 30" perimeter prep space...is that a negative or a positive?

Does it make sense to split trash and recycling into two different places: recycling under sink and trash in island or perimeter?

I think I like your Design B island orientation and the voided corner option. Though personally we have a lazy susan in our corner and like it. What is the 9" Chefs drawer? You could also do a 9" spice pull out cabinet here. Leave your trash in the locations where you have them...if you put trash next to cooktop it will be hard to open if someone is working at the sink.

And with your 18" trash/recycle pull-out, make sure you have a top drawer because I think you will want your silverware there.

I would not find it convenient to store glasses above the dishwasher. You'll have to set the glasses on the counter and close the dishwasher door to be able to access most of the shelves. I'd probably put them to the left of the range hood in the 24" upper above the dish drawer.

I would find it convenient to unload the dishwasher to the left of the sink and have dish drawers and uppers for glasses to the right of the sink as shown on Plan B. It is an easy motion to unload the dishwasher. I normally don't like voided corners but in this case I think it makes sense so you could maximize the width of the dish drawer.

I slightly prefer Plan B. I think I would use the island surface more in this orientation (especially since there isn't a lot of space next to the range on either side). But someone could easily argue the opposite and say they prefer Plan A because the dishes are closer to the dining table so it is personal preference.

I disagree with Stan Z because we currently have our glasses stored in an 18" cabinet directly above the dishwasher and have no trouble putting them away with the dishwasher open. Rantontoo, what is your current dish storage and kitchen layout like? You need to think about the things you like and dislike about your current kitchen and layout and improve it from there. You also need to think about your house and which Island orientation feels the most comfortable in your space- which orientation are you leaning toward?

Yes, the final details are often personal preferences and there are always trade offs to be made even in new construction. What works well for a person who is 4'10" tall and 100 pounds might be very different than someone who is 6'5" and 300 pounds.

I have a similar layout as Plan B. Sink and stove are in that position with the silverware drawer in the location of your dish drawer. I also prep on a 30" counter to the left of the stove most of the time. Often I'm at the sink or at the 30" counter preparing dinner and DH decides the table needs to be set right NOW! He's the type that when he gets an idea he has to follow through with it. Sometimes he tries to dart into that corner right as I'm moving from stove to sink and I want to clobber him. I've retrained him but boy was it annoying when you're trying to get dinner on the table. Since you don't have much perimeter, I'd avoid putting a dish drawer on the perimeter.

What I don't like about your plan is you've made the kitchen too congested in order to have a spacious dining room. With two people, you don't need all that dining space. My DR is in the same position, with a door to the deck. Your DR is 15' wide--mine is 9 1/2'. I have a 36" wide table and plenty of room to move around the table (I also have a peninsula between kitchen and DR). I wonder if you could take 15 inches off the pantry/hutch design and give it to the kitchen, allowing you to put a trash cabinet to the right of the sink. I couldn't function with my trash in an island behind me when I'm doing wet prep at the sink. Sometimes I scoop up handfuls of peelings from the sink and dump them right into the trash. So imagine drip drip drip all over the floor moving them to your trash cabinet. With a 15"-18" trash cabinet to the right of the sink, you gain countertop and relieve congestion in your busiest prep area. But that would mean moving or extending the window to center the sink. Also, those 9" drawers are useless. Interior space will be about 7".

I hope some of the layout experts can help tweak this for you.

Right now, we have a 15 inch cabinet above the dishwasher where glasses go; it works but standing to the side and placing glasses in the cabinet requires a bit of stretching. Silverware is in the peninsula and plates and bowls are in cabs above the peninsula...HATE that set up but was the "thing" in the late 70s/early 80s.

I have packed up most of the kitchen but left the minimums in the cab above the dishwasher and corner cab where the easy reach will go. I am going to put everything left in that corner cab area to see what that feels like when unloading the dishwasher...breaking 30+ year habits.

We have realized that it is convenient to have dishes and silverware in the vicinity of the stove instead of the peninsula even in our small kitchen since we plate there most of the time and take our plates to the table.

Current kitchen...please excuse the mess since I am "weeding" and packing things in boxes.

I cannot move the window (stucco exterior, newer windows...DH might blow a gasket) but could live with a non-centered sink.

Can you post some more pics toward the dining space and your French doors, and maybe one toward the living room/entry? I think that helps the layout gurus. It looks like you're removing the wall between your kitchen and living room.

I think those kitchens were designed for when we made Hamburger Helper for dinner with Jello for dessert. We didn't need much prep area!

At least you will gain some counterspace to the left of the stove. I actually have my trash cabinet between my sink and DW, which you might consider. It's a 13 gallon Rev-a-Shelf in a 13 1/2" cabinet. I didn't center my sink on the peninsula because it gave me a 4' prep counter, but I only use it for the occasional rolling out of pastry. I'm at the sink or on that 30" counter all the time, so I kind of regret that decision. Everything happens in that little corner.

mayflowers: Is dripping a problem when you load the dishwasher with a trash cabinet between the sink and dishwasher?

We are taking out a wall so I can get rid of the peninsula and have an island instead. I never worked/prepped at the peninsula even though it is the largest expanse of counter space. I find myself in the current 12"x12" corner most of the time.

I just got back from a family friend's funeral; I will work on the photographs.

I like Mayflower's idea of moving the refrigerator over about 18 inches if you can. Then you could move the sink cab over and put an 18 trash pullout to the right of the sink. Use a corner drain and have the faucet handle centered under the window.

You also have more prep space. If you have the island as in design A, you could put dish storage in the island. You could put glasses in the corner easy reach although I think I would like them better in the 18 inch cab next to the fridge for easy retrieval, even if it is a little harder to unload them from the dishwasher.

Probably more expensive than a pullout but saw these chef drawers posted by someone and liked the idea of being able to reach things from above in both drawers.

Per expanding cabs into dining area...I think I am at my max for seating/walking clearances around table and island??? I would be thrilled if I calculated that wrong. This is the only sit-down eating area in my modest split-level home. I occasionally host family-extended family gatherings: buffet-style serving.

Here's what Option B would be. I moved the refrigerator over approximately 9" - which I then took off the Buffet/Hutch along with the approx 3" needed on each side to allow you to open the pantries completely - making it 45" wide instead of 57" wide. If the built-in is already built, then take 6" off each pantry instead. But, I'd rather have the wider pantries.

The island is 63"W x 42"D.

Note that I included fillers where they are needed to allow cabinets to open fully. If your cabinet line offers them, ask for extended stiles instead of filler so you will be able to take advantage of the 1" to 1.5" in each case.

You also need filler b/w the oven cabinet & the wall to ensure the ovens & drawers will clear any imperfections in the wall. Again, ask for an extended stile, if available.

I would have liked to give you another 9" of workspace to the right of the sink, but that would mean reducing the pantries & Buffet/Hutch another 3" each (33" Pantry + 42" Buffet/Hutch + 33" Pantry). I also think those extra 9" may reduce aisles around the table too much.

Alternatively, you could switch from a 36" sink base to a 30" sink base, thus gaining 6" and then just move everything over 3". However, I think you're fine with the layout below.

Layout #1:

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Layout #1 Zone Map:

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Buehl: thank you for tweaking my layout.

The cabs will be custom so longer stiles it will be (learned a new cabinet term today!). I did not realize that I needed clearance space on the pantry cabinets since my current reach-ins do not have them, but they do not abut any other cabs...is that why I need those 3 inches? I like more space between the sink and the corner; I do not know if I can convince DH that a sink does not have to be centered on a window (I am fine if the faucet lines up with something logical). I agree about keeping the width on the pantries. They are such useful space; I currently have two 24"x12" reach-ins and am looking forward to more reach-in storage space.

More clearance questions:

What is the clearance needed to clear drawer doors and handles in a corner; I had 3 inches for clearance in the corner of the L?

If I researched correctly, some 30" wall ovens will fit into a 31.5 cabinet; is that correct? How wide should the stiles be on the side of the wall cab?

I did not realize that I needed clearance space on the pantry cabinets since my current reach-ins do not have them, but they do not abut any other cabs...is that why I need those 3 inches?

• Where the cabinets are against a wall or a deeper cabinet, you need filler. I put in 1.5" (not 3"), but it might need to only be an inch. I have 1.5" on one cabinet and 1" on another. The cabinet with 1.5" does open wider than the one with 1", but I really have no issues with either one - they both open at least 90 degrees. However, the cabinets they're against are only 12" deeper, so the door knobs open into air, not into the adjacent cabinet. Where yours are against the wall - in particular, the pantry cabinet - I recommend going with 1.5". (The 3" I referenced previously was the combined space of two 1.5" fillers.)
• Since you can get extended stiles, definitely use those instead of actual filler!

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I like more space between the sink and the corner; I do not know if I can convince DH that a sink does not have to be centered on a window (I am fine if the faucet lines up with something logical).

• If you have an undermount sink, you cannot really tell that the sink is not centered under the window. The faucet is what shows - as you already realized! So, center the faucet on the window and it should look fine. I doubt your DH will even notice it after awhile.
• Centering a sink on a window is a holdover from before the advent of dishwashers. Before dishwashers, people spent far more time in front of the sink doing dishes several times a day. Today, we spend far more time prepping on the counter next to the sink so it makes much more sense to have the counter next to the sink in front of the window!

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What is the clearance needed to clear drawer doors and handles in a corner; I had 3 inches for clearance in the corner of the L?

• 3" on each side of the corner should be sufficient - but no less.

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If I researched correctly, some 30" wall ovens will fit into a 31.5 cabinet; is that correct? How wide should the stiles be on the side of the wall cab?

• Yes. In fact, my 30" ovens are in a 31.5"W cabinet. The side stiles on my oven cabinet are 1". However, my ovens are up against a wall that angles away from them - it's the front of my corner pantry. I recommend 3/4" to 1" to accommodate any wall imperfections. (I have 30" GE Profile Trivection Double Ovens.)

With a 15" trash pull-out and a 27" single-bowl sink in a 30" base, I think your sink would be entirely under the window. If you need more trash or recycling, you could add one to the island where buehl shows cookbook storage.

I would not reduce the amount of workspace to the right of the sink...you don't really have enough as it is.

But, if you reduced the sink size so it lines up with the left side of the window, would that appease your husband? (Not reducing the 18" cab on the right.) Would you be happy with the smaller sink?

Hmm...I think I labeled the workspace size incorrectly. I need to go check the layout. (I'll fix it and repost if it is wrong.)

Edited to add: The labels are correct! (no changes)

I will have to look at a smaller farmhouse sink to make a decision about doable. Sink issues are a major DH problem....what he calls "power-cleaning" before loading the dishwasher, water everywhere, and flying gunk from his damn brush. I tried losing the brush...no go!

Could you move the island down another 3"? Or, would it block the hallway to the bedrooms?

If you could move it down, you could add 3" to the depth of the sink counters to give you more space b/w the sink and the window & wall to reduce messy splashing. On the negative side, it would reduce the 22" cabinet to the left of the range by the same 3"....

If you could remove the wall "below" the ovens, you would gain approx 4.5" - it would more than make up for the 3" and you could add 1.5" to the 22" cabinet (for a total of 23.5").

I know I am not the only one who finds trade-off conundrums and agonizing over inches frustrating. I have a lot to think about. I have waited a long time, and feel a lot of pressure to not mess up; but I am trying to remember that even if I regret some of my choices, I will still have a vastly improved cooking and entertaining space.

Well, at least DH does the dishes! So does mine--that's why I keep him!

Does he scrub with dish in hand or dish sitting in sink? If the latter, a deeper sink will solve that problem. If your current DW isn't cleaning well, a new one with the new enzyme detergents might convince him he doesn't need to scrub. I have had very few things come out dirty from my Miele in five years.

Here's what I was thinking:

Note, I was actually able to come up with more space b/c the filler is no longer needed b/w the now eliminated wall and the oven cabinet. You now have a 25" cabinet b/w the corner and the cooktop which gives you 33" of workspace on that wall! (Plus the approx 27" b/w the sink and corner)

My DH also does the dishes - I'm very glad of that! Actually, it's one of the things we agreed to before we were married - I cook (he hates to cook) and he cleans up!

Real life advice needed...How worried do I need to be about dings in the oven wall cab if I take out the short wall? The sink kooks fine on paper. I think I am going to have to ask for pictures from people who have done this since I didn't think I needed to pay attention to non-centered sinks. DH really needs to see a picture so he doesn't automatically nix an idea.

I don't think it will be an issue unless your family is always dinging walls, furniture, etc. It's along a "side" wall and isn't a tight corner, so you should be fine.

Just have the cabinetmaker include a decorative door appearance built into that side of the oven cabinet. It's not a decorative door applied to the side, it's actually part of the side. (I know there's a term for that, but I cannot think of it right now!)

That's great removing that oven wall! I thought I wanted a 36 " sink but now I am happy with my 30" which is so much deeper than the old 2 bowl one it replaced. I agree if you center the faucet in the window it will not be noticeable that the sink isn't, that really surprised me till I saw examples. You definitely need us to post pictures for your DH.

How much room do you really need in your sink? Lol

ravencajun: thank you, the pictures help me too...last picture made me smile! I hated bending down for kid bathing in the bathtub so my kids started with "baths" in the kitchen sink and then the laundry tub until they graduated to the big boy/girl showers.

OK...since your DH is so resistant to a non-centered sink, how about something like this?

I know it's very different, but just something to think about...

Layout #3:

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Layout #3 - Zone Map:

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