Good point thanks diggingthedirt!!! The dogs head comes up about 3' high, he is a big dog. The neighbors dog is about the same (friendly but it is never on a leash). They are pretty big dogs although, I'm not a dog fan... or should I say a fan of dog owners that don't take care of their dog. The younger dog is very active, and my neighbor's is not as active. It is much older (12 or 13 yrs). For everyone out there that has commented about the "owners" taking responsability, I completely agree. It just is so hard since I've known these people for well over 20 years. We were in Boy Scouts together and have had family outing etc... the dog was his wife's idea. They lived here and owned the dog before I bought the house. My friend gets physically ill when cleaning up after the dog. He tolerates the dog his wife could not live without. And just why doesn't the wife take care of the dog... Well for one she is 8 months pregnant. I've asked 1,000,000,000,000,000.... times to please clean it up and I get nothing. I take care of all the yard work and know where the dog poops so I don't run it over with the lawn mower. But still, they don't clean. So... How do ya handle that? I don't know, but I know the dog is not going anywhere, anytime soon. As for the dog getting tangled up, it happened every day for 7 days. It didn't stop him from going in to the bed. But I'm testing right now with some scrap wood. 30" in height and the pickets about 8" on center (6" apart) It looks nice and I think that I will probably continue with this project after their baby room remodel is done. Too many projects going on at one time... I still have to finish painting the house. (and I'm worried about my flower beds hehe) goodhors I loved your story about the "plant prison." I had a good laugh. I actually used that fence, but the dog went right over it :( I guess I could try some thick fence posts driven into the ground, instead of the picket fence. Maybe more stability will keep him out. I'd maybe get a taller fence since mine is only 18 inches tall. (what was I thinking?)

Posted by: winter_plumage_AZ Sonoran Desert (My Page) on Thu, Jun 23, 05 at 12:48 "Okay, here's what we have established: Traps were placed for an unknown target. Squirrels can jump and quail can't carry apples. You've paid $300+ to kill quail (illegal, btw) but you can't pay anyone to erect a freakin' barrier." I did not spend 300 on anything. I got the check back and purchased from an alternate source two discounted live traps, and five two dollar snap traps. The bait (apples for live traps, cotton for snap traps) are already things we keep around the house. Inspection of the property was free. The entire thing was inexpensive. 50 dollars or under. I agree a 300 dollar barrier would be affordable. I dont think anyone could build me one the size I need for that. If I am wrong and someone is willing and able to come over and build two enclosed gardens for me that complies with my HOA for under $300 dollars -- you have a job if you want it. E-mail me and we will talk. I bought LIVE traps to catch and release squirrels, not to kill quail. I set the traps according to the specifications I was given. I have not done anything "illegal" as you suggest. "packrats & mice aren't into fruit; therefore I'm not understanding the reason for trapping them. Oops! Money for the pest control people!" It wss the young man at a pest control place who, when I told him I would not pay the 300 dollars, kindly told me where I could find discounted live traps. Go figure. Why trap packrats if they arent into the fruit? Because I don't want them destroying the firebrick on my kiln (very fragile), or my air conditioning units, or my lawn mower, or the wiring in our cars. They have already chewed holes in my tarps, built a nest under the lawn mower, and are in the kiln area. "How *DID* they evolve without cultivated fruit in their burrows?!! *Think* about that." Dogs and horses evolved without commercially prepared kibble or commercially produced feed. Yet they still eat it. Cats cannot hunt or kill a cow. Yet they will eat beef it if it is in cat food. Just because they eat a type of food now, doesn't mean that they couldn't have "evolved" or survived in the wild without it. (or that it is the healthiest thing for them to eat either). When you alter an animals natural habitat, they do not always act the same as they would in the wild. Sometimes even domesticated animals carry out instinctive behaviors in illogical ways. I know a lady in Hawaii who has a dog that collects and stores coconuts under her house. I know of another whose dog liked to herd the kitchen chairs into a corner. "Now, how long do you suppose fruit would retain its moisture? If fruit were "stored" in burrows, the moisture would create toxic fungi/mold." Many people where I grew up used to store apples and other fruits and vegetables in dark, dry, EARTH, root-cellars. Green apples (especially the smaller ones) actually do have quite a long shelf life. Assuming they would mold or just dry out quickly, that is still not proof that they are not being taken (or taken and placed into in burrows). Animals will drink antifreeze. It is not part of their natural diet. In fact, it can be quite deadly. Animals sometimes take or eat things because it is available and smells good, not because they "have to" and not knowing it is not a "logical" or healthy thing for them to do. I have not ruled out the possibility that it might not be some other type of animal. The live traps were one way to try to find the answer to that. They were never intended to kill anything. "How 'bout a surveillance camera?!!" That is a good suggestion and something that I did think about and check into. I agree that if I knew without a doubt what was taking the apples, it would be helpful in finding a solution. But I need a wireless camera (no electricity in the orchard and too far away to run electrical cord) that projects to an indoor monitor, it has to be weather proof (it is an outside exposed area), and the moniter has to either record or have the ability to hook up to a VCR, (so you dont have to have someone present 24/7 to observe the moniter). I was expecting prices similar to the motion activated nanny cams you see everywhere now (100 dollar and under range). Not so, the outdoor wireless that transmit long distances are extremely expensive. The prices I got were all close to 1000 dollars (installation not included). That is just not affordable and so I am still shopping around. "I happen to think that education is constructive, even if it isnt what we want to hear." "Education" is constructive. Sarcasm, presumption, insinuation, and the assumption that your "opinion" is the only "right" one, is not so constructive. It is your tone I take offense to. And frankly, it is not really needed to get your point across. "It is disturbing that people don't care enough to know and value our natives as part of the diverse ecosystem of the Sonoran Desert, and can so easily take away their lives for myriad reasons--not the least of which is for fruit that can be purchased at the store. The wildlife being displaced are without alternatives/options, and their hungry young are left to die a slow, painful death of dehydration and starvation as they wait for their mother to return. Enjoy your crop." If I simply did not care, as you suggest, I would not be attempting to live-trap and relocate. Part of our subdivision is next to protected desert upland, part is not. Mine is not. Because of the way the community is situation, we have many native and non-native food sources available. The animals here are far from starving. The cottontails and quail are so big and fat, they don't look like desert animals. People even put seed out for them. No critters (quail, squirrel, or unknown target) are going to be forced to die a slow and painful death just because I intend to find a way to stop them of eating ALL the fruit from my fruit trees. You have made your point about the problems associated with urban encroachment and the plight of Arizona's native wildlife. I think it is great that you feel passionately about this cause. I have my own causes (and believe it or not, most are animal welfare causes) that I am equally passionate about. But it is not my preference to belittle or lecture people for not agreeing with my beliefs or opinions. This conversation between us is not really productive, so please, lets just move on. Jessica

I am a former veterinary technician and current animal control officer. By and large, cats should live indoors. If an owner is concerned about the cat's general health and the populations of wild songbirds at all. Visit this site for more information about cats' effect on the songbird population...http://www.abcbirds.org/ Cats that live exclusively indoors are healthier. They live longer lives. They do not face the perils of traffic, fighting with other cats which results in eye and facial injuries and abcesses, fox and coyote predation, the list goes on. The do not have a negative impact on the wildlife populations in the area and they are undoubtedly in compliance with any ordinances that are present in city or county codes. Many people in our rural community do not realize that cats are required to be either on their owner's property or in their owner's DIRECT physical control. Cats that wander the neighborhood are considered to be "at large" and can be impounded and the owners cited just as if their dog were running around loose. It is always wise to inquire about the actual ordinances in your community rather than assume that cats are free to roam. Many folks won't accept that a cat can be trained to live exclusively indoors. I have two that are completely content. Both came to me as strays from the Shelter or clinic where I worked at the time. They were picked up as "outdoor cats". My parents recently had a change of lifestyle where they moved, with their two cats, from a rural town of 1500 people where they allowed the cats to roam outdoors at will to a high traffic neighborhood that required that the cats be housed indoors for their own safety. The cats were inhappy for a couple of weeks and then settled right in to a new, healthier lifestyle. In my current work as an officer, I see that most people are just too stubborn to obey the ordinances of our community and they utilize the "cats don't live indoors" argument as an excuse to break the law. Cats that roam are a hazard to themselves and the wild animal populations that we all like to see in our yards and gardens. They are a traffic hazard. They are a nuisance to neighbors' flower beds and sleeping patterns. If a cat must spend some time outdoors that's swell but the owner should invest time and energy in keeping the cat on site and safe from harm. There are some super cat containment systems available or there are plans available to construct on yourself. It allows Fluffy the cat to spend time in the fresh air chasing bugs and sniffing around without endangering himself or the songbird/lizard/rabbit/squirrel populations. Lastly, while our shelter sees an 85% rate of owner reclamation for dogs, we only see a 14% rate of owner reclamation for cats brought to our shelter. This is a DIRECT result of the owners' failure to identify their cats with collars and tags. There are safe collars for cats on the market and most any cat can be trained to wear a collar with some persistence from the owner. This would really help to get cats back home when they are lost and at large. Just my .02 as someone that deals with this question on a daily basis.

Cat Deterrents for your Garden: Keep in mind that each cat is different (like people), what works for one may not necessarily work for another. On the plus side, most cats will keep pesty squirrels, moles and other critters out of your garden. Cat's are also great for keeping out moles, rabbits, squirrels, and other critters which can do more damage in your garden than a cat ever will. If the cat's have owners, take it up with them without being non-confrontational. The cat owner who allows his cat to damage other peoples' property is as guilty as the cat hater who kills the cat for trespassing. Remember, cats will be cats, and it is unfair of us to blame them for being what they are. After-all, we praise them when they catch mice or rats or other creatures we deem to be 'pests'. * amonia soaked (corncobs, etc) * aluminum foil * bamboo skewers * black pepper * blood meal fertilizer * bramble cuttings * Carefresh - "recycled" wood pulp * catnip - donated into your neighbor's yards (so they'll stay in their own yards) * cedar compost * chicken wire (metal or plastic) * cinnamon * citrus peels * citrus spray * cocoa bean shells * coffee grounds -fresh & unbrewed (highly recommended) * dogs * electric fence for animals * essence of orange. essence of lemon, lime (citrus essential oils) * fresh manure(ditto) * garlic cloves * gumballs from the Sweet Gum Tree * gutter covers * hardware cloth * heavy bark mulch * holly leaves * keep the area damp, they like dry soil * lavender * liquid manure (good for your garden too) * motion sensor sprinkler * pinecones * pipe tobacco * plastic forks * predator urine * river rocks over the exposed soil * rocks, crushed * rose bush clippings * rue, an herb (Ruta graveolens) (highly recommended in plant form only) * short twigs throughout the planted area about 6" apart * six-inch bamboo skewers (pointy side up) * Spray on your leaves (not the cat): fill a spray bottle with 1/2 t chili powder, 1/2 t cayenne pepper, 1 t dish soap and water * squirt gun with water * talk to your neighbors * thorny berry, lilac, hawthorn, rose clippings * toothpicks * upside down vinyl carpet * vinegar sprayed on areas where they roam * water bottle on "stream" NOT RECOMMENDED: *** chili powder, red crushed pepper, cayenne pepper (NOT recommended), it gets on the cat's paws then they wash themselves and they get it in their eyes, beware cats have literally scratched their eyes out because of this *** Don't ever use mothballs or flakes. Those little toxic waste pellets destroy cats' kidney function, could seriously harm people who handle them, and yes, contaminate your garden soil. Their packaging even warns against using them this way. Give them their own areas: (To keep them out of where you don't want them) (If you don't mind them protecting your garden from other critters) + pick the cat up and bring it to eye level with the plant to see and smell it up close. She noted that once her cat has seen and sniffed at the plant, she usually doesn't bother with it later. + give them their own plants - i.e., pots of grass for her to chew on and a place in a large planted container on her balcony with some miscanthus grass in it (the cat likes to curl up in that for some reason) + if the cats are strictly indoors and attracted to your houseplants, grow catgrass for them. If someone forced you to remain inside one enclosed structure all your life, you might be attracted to the plants too. + Barley Grass + Any type of "catgrass" from the pet store + Carex elata 'Bolwes Golden' but put it in some shade + Catmint Nepeta mussinicultivars (Simply put, Catmints are Catnips without any culinary or feline use. In any case, they are, however, phenomenal, long flowering, hardy perennials that belong in every fairie or flower garden.) + Catnip Nepeta cataria (in your own yard) The oils of which also work as a mosquito repellent that works 10 times better than Deet! + Cat Thyme (Teucrium marum) + Flax + Oat Grass + Jacob's Ladder + Lemon Grass + Loose soil and mulch like small bark mulch + Mints + Purple Fountain Grass so the cat lays in the long leaves all day. Maybe put something in that the cats really like and - you know cats won't winky were they like to hang out. + Sandy area + Silver vine (Actinidia polygama) + Striped Ribbon Grass (can be invasive) + Sweet grass + Trificum aestivum (type of cat grass) + Various Varieties of Cat Mints (Catnips) + Wheat Grass + Wheat Berries + Valerian This list compiled by Violet_Z6, email at violetgw@care2.com for comments and suggestions regarding this list.