First question is: are you OK with the house looking bare half the year?

Any opinion on Tokyo Delight or Burning Bush?

That's a good question. Are my choices basically (a) amazing color and leaves for 6 months and bare for 6 months or (b) nice enough but boring for the year?

A good landscape design incorporates both: plants that are attractive year round, and plants that have special interest at various times of the year.

Hydrangea Tokyo Delight (a cultivar of big leaf hydrangea, H. Macrophylla) won't bloom reliably since if it gets hit by late frost or a particularly cold winter, the flower buds may die. I would choose a panicled hydrangea, one of the earlier flowering ones such as Quickfire, Little Quickfire, or Bobo, all of which will start blooming in early July and continue until frost. They form their flower buds in spring, so hardiness isn't an issue; they are fine to zone 3.

Burning bush is invasive - birds eat the fruit and poop the seeds out where ever they fly, so they invade wild areas and neighbors' yards. Not recommended. Also most of the year they are boring, too large green blobs.

I would choose something evergreen (one option would be an evergreen groundcover) and something medium tall of winter interest such as another evergreen or a shrub with bright twigs.

The easy way is to have a back row of evergreens, then a middle row of flowering, deciduous shrubs, and a front row of perennials, bulbs or annuals.

Here is a link to he original post, but there are limits to the bed depth of essentially one narrower shrub with perhaps bulbs and groundcover so that the kids have room to play.

Stillpitpat, we do need bed dimensions to know what to suggest.

Edited after looking at your original post...I know lawn space is valued, but could you expand the bed on the left so it comes out as much as the half circle walkway on the right?

3 ideas:

1. Based on the picture, space is tight...I would avoid shrubs. Try an upright ornamental grass with fall (colorful transition or flowers) interest? You could add annuals at the base or small perinnials.

2. Alternatively, if you can't increase the bed, you can plant perinnials there (Walkers low or Salvia May Night does well here in MO) then put flower boxes of annuals along the wall on the left? In the winter, you can replace the annuals with evergreen clippings, etc for seasonal interest.

3. Referencing yardvark's drawing: You could install an ornamental grass in place of the green shrub and blue flowering plant. Then add a perinnial (I love Walkers low) where he drew the purple plant.

Oh cool, thanks all!

I will forget about burning bush and Tokyo delight. I don't know much about shrubs (or ground cover) so I literally googled "zone 5A shrubs" and looked at three pages of pictures. Ha.

NHBabs: Thanks for linking the other post. I will get measurements. And the heads-up on hydrangea (one of my faves). I also like the idea of evergreen ground cover. We have some sort of ivy in a flower bed in the back, and it is very pretty and manageable. We trim it back in late fall and do a tiny bit of cutting here and there during the season and that's it.

hl_60: We may be able to expand it a bit. I just didn't want a tree way out there. Flower boxes could be cool. I usually hang nice flower baskets in spring and summer. Would that be overwhelming - boxes and baskets together? I do like boxes. There is a house down the block that is very plain, but they do very nice flower boxes in season and it makes the whole house look so cute.

One thing I am wondering is if we can fit a small ornamental tree a little forward of the far end of the bed. That would get in the way of playing a little bit, but it would be close enough to the bed that it could be worked around. I'll have to look at the property line though. I'm not sure if the place I have in mind would work (and I'm in PJs right now so am not going to check). I will see if I can draw it out on yardvark's pic.

2) I tried to draw a curvy bed that would include the new tree but my simple editing tools didn't allow for that. If we do a curvy bed and small tree, the tree would be within the bed.

3) Don't laugh at my tree. :) It's the best I can do. I have always loved Japanese maples, and I think I have seen very small ones. Or is there something that looks like a small JM? Or maybe a plum tree. We had two plums in SE Michigan and they did well. The issue with a tree there is mainly space - how close to the other things in the bed could it be, how far the bed can extend into the yard, and how close it is to the property line. I would also ask our NDNs as we have a very social block and want to maintain good relationships with neighbors, esp NDNs. I don't mean I'd ask all neighbors if we can plant a tree, just ask our NDNs how they feel about a small tree near the property line.

ETA: when I say "curvy bed," this is the kind of thing (mirrored) I mean (and the small tree would go where the tall grasses are):

And can anyone tell me if we need to leave fallow the area where the arborvitae are once we remove them? and for how long?

I finally measured the front, and we could extend the bed forward to a depth of 94", which is about what yardvark's pic shows. If we pulled it up all the way to be flush with the curved walkway to the right of the stairs, we would lose too much space. I was also rethinking the curved design above. Given the Prairie/Arts & Crafts style in my area, I wonder if it might look better to have a rectangular bed with a small tree as an offset accent as below. We walked around yesterday and got some ideas, which I will also post. But what do you think of this shape?

The type of tree I would like (Japanese maple, right?) and a few other things we liked.

Oh, and my husband's one deal-breaker - no hostas. He has an unnatural hate for hostas.

Would a pagota dogwood do well? It would have part sun/part shade.

Pagoda dogwood would get too large, though I dearly love them. You really need a narrow shrub that you can control with pruning to look like a small tree. Perhaps a Hydrangea paniculata tree form (created by pruning), something like Limelight, but not in shrub form.

Photo 1 is a Japanese maple, but again, many will get too wide for your area. I can't grow most of them, so hopefully someone can weigh in with suggestions for an appropriatley sized one.

An alternative to a tree would be a vine on a trellis since then you would have more control over its shape.

I think your ground covers will both take too much work to control. The vinca (photo 3) can grow several feet a year in my garden, and I am in the process of ripping it all out for that reason; it is rooting into the lawn, the perennials, etc. Photo 2 I think is celandine poppy which is a vigorous seeder. Look at Veronica 'Georgia Blue' or 'Waterperry Blue' instead which in my garden spreads, but not into places where I don't want it.

Photo 4 is a rhododendron, perhaps a quite young Olga Mezitt, which tends to get to wider than you want. I am not sure how well it would do with an annual pruning (right after bloom so as to not remove the next years' forming flower buds) to control size. There are smaller varieties, and many are evergreen (including Olga M), so that would be a good choice for winter interest.

Oh wow, thanks!

I must post a picture of whatever is in my backyard. It's green and thick and grows nicely but doesn't really need a lot of cutting back. It's in a boxed flower bed though. Idk if that makes a difference. it's not exactly ground cover as it grows about a foot tall, but not a shrub either. I like it and could see it in the front.

What about a carefully pruned plum tree? My neighbor has one that is just the right size for the space in my yard. Hers almost looks like a shrub.

Oh, I like those Veronicas!

We had a very similar yard set-up before we moved and ended up planting a yoshino cherry on the right in front of the sidewalk to the side of the house, a pansy redbud on the left corner of the house and upright yews in front of the porch for some height. For some color we had azaleas, lime spirea, and coralbells. Because I'm in the same zone also with an east-facing house I can tell you our experience with what worked and didn't work for us. If you PM me I can give you our old address so you can see how we did the bed lines. Good luck!

Here are our measurements. Property line is an estimate. I'm still interested in small Japanese maples and/or plum trees (but pruned like shrubs). And all the other stuff.

8' is a deeper bed than I thought you might have available. You can keep the bed lines relatively straight, but bring them out to include your small tree/large shrub, sort of like the large grass photo, but without the other wiggles. It will make maintenance easier. Do you want to be able to get into the side and back yard on that side? If so, you will need to leave space for a path.

I would visit a good nursery (not a big box store) and see if they have any rhodies that will stay within a reasonable size as well as seeing what else they have as far as shrubs. The rhodies will be green in winter, but the leaves will curl into almost tubes in particularly cold weather. You will have room for Olga Mezitt rhododendron there if you like its look along with probably one other shrub and your small tree form. I wouldn't prune the small tree like a shrub, but keep it as tree form.

I can't remember if I suggested you visit the Chicago Botanic Garden. If I didn't, do so, as often as you can get away for a few hours. If you go every couple of weeks you will develop knowledge of what you like, what blooms for how long, and what things look like when not in bloom. Take photos, not just of the plants, but also of the labels so you know what they are. It is a world-class resource.

As far as how soon to plant after removal, it depends some on what you do for removal. Will you get the bases of the arborvitae ground down or cut out deeply? I know from experience that they last years in the ground - quite rot resistant. Will you get much of the privet roots, leaving only small roots? Privet is one of those plants that can regrow from severe cutbacks, so unless you do more than just cutting it back to ground level, I would plan on painting the cut surfaces of what remains in the ground with something like glyphosate concentrate (generic Roundup) which is fairly good as a brush killer but it doesn't leave a residue that will kill new plants. Some herbicides will leave a residue, so if you choose another product (including any glyphosate products that also contain other herbicides) be sure to research whether you can plant soon after.

I would plan to get a load of good compost delivered and dig it into the whole bed. The current plants have been there a good while and your organic matter and nutrients are probably fairly low. Do this when the bed isn't soaking wet, but isn't dry either. If you have done all the prep work, you can plant whenever suits you, but it will be much easier on the plants (and you as far as watering) if you do it either in the next couple of weeks or in the fall.

Wow - thanks for all of this!

I like the idea of the Botanic Garden but Idk if I can go up there a lot. We are starting a complete bathroom remodel shortly and are also planning a complete kitchen remodel for the winter or next spring, so my time and attention are spread thin. I will probably make due mostly with looking at pictures and reading, and also looking at my neighbors' yards. That's been very helpful the last few weeks, and I never really paid a lot of attention to that before. It's funny what you start to notice when you begin a project like this.

Also, thank you for addressing the timing issue. That is exactly the info I needed.

We have a good nursery/landscaping company nearby which I will visit, and another one a half hour's drive away that I can check out too.

Good stuff!

NH Babs always gives such great advice I swear!!! Stillpitpat I just bought a dwarf redbud tree that is narrow and only grows to about 8'-10' at maturity it's called the 'Lavender Twist' redbud..here is the pic of it waiting to be put in the ground

Scratch that, it is said to only grow about 5'-6' with an 8-10' spread

Hi, I moved over to see what you're planning. Because you will be removing juniper, I would VERY SOON have your soil tested for acidity. The Cook County Farm Bureau can do the testing and you'll get a full report as to the pH level of your soil. The juniper makes future planting riskier because the only "safe" quick planting would be other evergreens if the soil is heavily acidic. Contact them, they send a kit, you take soil samples and mail them back....with a check of course.....and you get a report. Yes, you can get 'do it yourself' kits but I recommend going the Cook County route - easier all around. I used them for our backyard to get help making a tree choice.

http://www.cookcfb.org/membership/programs/soil-testing

If the soil is heavily acidic, it will have to be amended to raise the pH level to a suitable level for planting of non-evergreens. Putting in shrubs that don't like acidic soil will result in the shrubs dying. Amendign is a risky process if done too quickly because adding alot of limestone quickly to raise the pH level can cause damage to other nearby plants. Amending is better from the standpoint of other plants if it happens more slowly. That would mean you'd have to remove the existing shrubs pretty soon. If you opted to not amend the soil, I recommend leaving the soil empty of plants for 2 years so that the acids just leach out naturally.

Are you looking ONLY for help with choosing and then buying shrubs...or are you looking for more extensive design work? Am I correct that you will want someone to remove the existing shrubs and then ultimately plant new shrubs? Does that firm HAVE to be the one that you buy the shrubs from? I'm not a big fan of the Forest Park company --- too expensive for what they do. The one up north is good, but they will get you cost-wise for the distance we are from them. I can recommend closer places, once you help with answers to these questions.

As you travel around the neighborhood, take pictures of homes with landscaping that you like and that you don't like. That will be a great help in narrowing down your tastes.

These would be my first steps, if I were in your shoes.

Hi Jmc!

Sooooo, how frustrated would you be, after writing all that out, if I told you that the shrub is not juniper? I was alarmed when reading your comments, so of course I googled juniper, and . . . . our shrub is yew. I have been running around telling everyone garden-related that we have juniper (and that I hate juniper), and all this time I was wrong.

Not frustrated at all because I learned a few things in the process!

For both yews and arbor vitaes, and because it looks like your existing shrubs have been around for quite a long time, the soil should be supplemented after they are removed. I confirmed with the Morton Arboretum that compost should be added down about 2 feet and worked in well before planting new shrubs. The existing soil is probably pretty "worn out" and loaded with clay and should be made more healthy so that new shrubs have a better chance at success.

I still recommend taking pictures of homes/landscape that you like. That will really help you narrow down what you like/don't like. Or instead of visiting the Chgo Botanic Gardens, check out the Morton Arboretum. a drive or bike ride theough there is always fun! If you have time this weekend or in the next couple weeks, stop by Luur's Garden Center in Hillside. We have lots of shrubs. Head STraight west on Washington, it turns into Butterfield Rd and is at the intersection of Butterfield and Taft Rd...about 20-25 min from OP, depending on traffic.

if you wait til fall to buy shrubs, most garden centers will have very limited stock as selling before winter is key. The best selection is available about now at any garden center.

https://www.luurs.com/

Soil pH is largely influenced by the underlying non-organic materials rather than by organic matter (such as pines, arborvitae, or juniper). In all honesty, I would get the soil pH tested along with basic nutrients, but I can't imagine that there will be much that won't grow in your soil based on pH. I have very acid soil (blueberries and sphagnum are native on my property), but the only plants that haven't grown well for me are ones that specifically grow in areas that have fairly basic soil, such as some of the western plants. I've never added lime or ash to my ornamental beds to increase the pH. You will want to add compost to improve soil texture and long-term nutrients in the whole bed (not just planting holes) since nutrients may have been depleted by the length of time your current plants have been growing. After that, break down of surface mulch will naturally add organic matter and nutrients to the bed.

Jmc, thanks for the link. We will be heading out to Hillside to go to Home Depot (our preference over Brickyard) for our bathroom remodel soon, so I'll come to Luurs as well. Shall I wear a pink carnation so you can recognize me? Lol. Or I can whisper "the eagle has landed" to every employee I see. How far in advance of planting can we buy the shrubs?

NHBabs, thanks for the info. We started composting for the first time last year, so we have plenty of compost ready to go. And we'll get the soil tested for sure. I think we did that back when we sodded years ago, and my husband (the gardener) found it helpful.

I didn't see anyone wearing a pink carnation today! And no one said "the eagle has landed" however, I was in trees/shrubs all day so, if you came and spoke to someone in a red jacket, we spoke. I'm happy to meet up for coffee as well.

I did get a raving recommendation from a few sources for shrub removal....Brookfield Tree. Very reasonably priced, clean up after themselves.....and.....drumroll please......honest beyond belief!

You can buy shrubs a couple of months in advance, but you have to be really diligent about watering. Plants in plastic containers dry out more quickly than if they were in the soil.

Oh, sorry, I didn't go yesterday. I just meant we have to go out that way before too long.

Can I ask you and NHBabs which tree would be better as an "accent tree" - japanese maple or plum? I could swear the plum trees I grew up with were relatively small (appropriate for a yard where kids play) but all the pics I see of them are much bigger. I did find the plum leaf sandcherry bush, which we could use in the bed and then get the maple as the accent tree. Do you think that's a good solution? I want both so much and can't decide between the two!

If there is one sized to your site and hardy enough, I would go for the J. maple hands down. Beautiful form year round, lovely leaves, and gorgeous autumn color. The purple leaf plum IME looks good in spring with fresh new leaves and flowers, but can get foliar diseases, and looks seriously blah in fall and winter.

I haven't been able to do too much about the yard lately but I do have 2 new pictures. What are these and would they be good options for me? The purple flower is everywhere, and I love the pink-flowered shrub.

I have also decided on a definite yes for the Japanese maple.

The purple one is salvia, the pink one is weigela. Both like a lot of sun. A hardy rhododendron such as PJM might work better if you see the area being more shady in the future. Also check out Iseli Nursery's "Jack Frost" line of hybrid japanese maples. Their 'North Wind' cultivar seems to be getting popular. You won't see it at Lowes or Home Depot, but some large nurseries in my area are carrying it now.

In a small garden like yours, I would want something that had a longer season of interest than Weigela. The one shown is somewhat too close to the building as it tends to arch like most forsythia, though not quite as large IME. Weigela looks lovely when blooming, but then is a green blob for the rest of the warm season and a twiggy blob in winter. No fall color, no berries, no interest in winter.

I would be more likely to go for one of the PJM rhododendrons that Mens Tortuosa suggested. Pink spring flowers, deep green, slightly shiny summer leaves that turn to a deep mahogany in fall and stay that color until it warms in spring. Watching day to day as the leaves are rolled up in really cold temps or unroll when it's warmer helps me decide how warm my outerwear needs to be in the winter. Easily pruned right after bloom if you want to control the size. In the general series is PJM, Olga Mezitt (sometimes just labeled Olga), Landmark, PJM Checkmate, and Aglo, among others. Each has a slightly different bloom time, bloom color, and plant size. If your soil is clay, plant slightly high and mulch well.

Nice to see that you are looking for plants you like as you travel around. It's a good strategy, but you will want to look again in about a month to see if they still look like something you would want to be viewing in your garden. In my area, many of the Salvias nemorosa cultivars look a bit tattered in summer. They seem to like to be cut back after blooming (deadheaded and remove any dry leaves) and may then rebloom. They do best if not allowed to get too dry but need a good amount of sun. I've found that Salvia 'Caradonna' does well for me, looking better for a longer season that some and having some rebloom. A short Nepeta/catmint like 'Blue Wonder' might look better for longer than most Salvia nemorosa cultivars if there is enough sun.

If your soil is acidic, I find blueberry bushes to be pretty. They don't really have big flowers or flower for a long time, but they have very pretty fall color and come in a variety of sizes. Bonus: you get blueberries if you can beat the birds. Northland would probably do well in zone 5, as it's quite hardy.

A red-twig dogwood can be nice for winter interest, since it has striking bright red stems, though you might have to do some pruning to keep it the right size.

Let's see if I have this right.

You will only have a bed coming 8 -9 1/2 ft out from the house

You have a photo posted of a curved bed with tall grasses and say you would like to put a tree there. YIKES -- no way - too close to the house once it grows and the canopy forms out over it

I seriously doubt you can get a tree in that front yard off to the left-side of the house. I Iooked at your original post here http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/4488293/advice-about-midwestern-front-yard-landscaping?n=33

You simply d o n o t have room for a Japanese maple.

On Japanese maples, be very careful. Some species get to 20+ ft tall and others to 8-10ft and here is the 'but' - even on the 8-10 ft varieties, the canopy width can easily be 10-15 ft. Maybe just possibly Acer Japonicum "Attaryi" would work or Acer Palmatum "Atrolineare".

If you really want a Japanese maple, look at some of the thread-leaf or needle-leaf varieties with a weeping form that don't get that tall and get 6-8 ft wide. Won't find those at Home Depot - need to go to a landscape center. Maybe a Acer Palmatum "Atropurpureum Dissectum". One called Crimson Queen can get very tall unless trained. It would pretty much fill up the area to the left of the steps though......... those need space too.

Now with 8- 9 1/2 ft space you have loads of space to use an evergreen shrub next to the house and then come out with color both perennials & conifers.

Facing east you should be okay with boxwood in the back of the bed Can be kept trimmed to whatever height and width you want. I would go higher with the boxwood to minimize the huge porch height which looks to be at least 6 1/2 feet to the top of the porch rail from the ground. Maybe get the boxwood to 4 ft + and 2 -2 1/2 ft wide. Then come out taller perennials (3 ft+) mixed with some conifers and roses or dwarf rhododendrons. There are some varieties of blue spruce that only get to 3 ft. and it would provide winter color interest or one of the yellow juniper varieties. That would take up 3 ft of so. Now you have 2 - 3 feet left. Use perennials that get 12-18 inches tall.

Don't line up the plant groups - box to perennials to rhodies/roses/conifers to perennials - in straight lines. Kinda swirl the 3 groups in front so the lines of plants are curvy and staggered.

You could get a climbing hydrangea and put a trellis so it comes up the front of that huge porch wall. Climbing hydrangea do well in part-sun/part-shade.

Now that little tine 4' by 8' space is tricky. Too small for a spreading shrub and a horrible place for a tree (get smacked by branches on the steps.) Might try a Dwarf Alberta Spruce (not the dwarf blue spruce). Those get to 8-10 ft tall and around 5 ft in diameter at the base. That would leave 3 ft or less in the front in the curved area for a couple of feet. Put in some perennials.

For ideas on plants check out Mornovia http://www.monrovia.com/plant-catalog/

Missouri Botanical Gardens http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/PlantFinder/PlantFinderProfileResults.aspx?z=5&cv=4&hf=1&ht=2&sf=1&st=8&chr=32

Bluestone Perennials (wonderful place and 200% trustworthy on shipped plants) https://www.bluestoneperennials.com/?gclid=CM3njdnVoNQCFQsvaQodVSIH0w

Keep in mind that a east-facing site is NOT full sun. Plants only get morning sun. Roses can struggle on a east-facing site even if the south appears open. Look for things that do okay in part-sun/part-shade. (and sad to say the first pictures you posted of plants you like are sun-lovers.....)

Surprise! I'm back again, and have done nothing. We had a family health crisis in mid june, plus we had our bathroom done, and I have not really done anything about the yard. I am going to try to have the tree/shrubs removed soon, as that will spur us to decide and plant in the spring. I have a question in the meantime. Ann, you gave me a lot to think about, so thank you, but I am wondering if it is really not possible to put a small tree there. Lots of my neighbors have Japanese Maples (or at least that's what they look like) in the same area of their yards. Just to be clear, I have marked roughly where I would want to plant the tree on my hand-drawn graphic. Based on the neighborhood, it seems fine. Should I maybe ask some of my neighbors what specific trees they have? Of the three you mentioned, I do like the Acer Palmatum "Atrolineare."

I think as long as you get a dwarf variety you should be ok..I bought this from a nursery this year and it’s really cute right now..but shouldn’t get too big..and if for whatever reason it did, just prune out the areas that are problematic

I love it!

Finally! It's so nice to see those columns!

Well, it's a year and a half later, and we haven't gotten very far. Granted, we gutted and remodeled our kitchen and removed out chimney between July and Dec 2018, and that was all-consuming, including months of planning leading up to July. We have a Fireglow on order to plant in the area I indicated just to the left and forward of the larger bed, but that's it. I can figure out what to do with the larger bed from your input above, but I just cannot figure out what to do in the small space to the right of the steps.

The space is about 4' wide 8' deep, and I know I want something in the back that grows to about 4-6 feet tall and likes partial sun, and it has to be a bold color to stand out from the gray. Unfortunately, I am not fond of most evergreens, so the most appropriate options (such as the dwarf alberta spruce) for this space don't work for me. After reading and looking at countless pictures and not finding anything that I like and is workable, I am now wondering about either doing a trellis with something trained on it or planting something that reaches ~2' in a tall urn. What do you think? any other ideas?

How about an Annabelle hydrangea or a Calycanthus (we have the variety ‘Aphrodite’)?

Have you thought about a columnar barberry? If you planted it dead center in that bed, I don't think it would be too close to the house, the stairs, or the walk to inflict any carnage. Occasional pruning might be needed to keep it narrow.

It looks like Calycanthus doesn't get tall enough, but Hydrangea arborescens and Hydrangea macrophylla are possibilities (from my quick reading).

Oh! I like the barberries!

Well, I had about settled on orange rocket barberry, but after reading more, I'm not sure b/c of the thorns and the fact that it is invasive in some areas. How about clematis on a trellis? That could be at the back against the wall and then I could plant some things in front. Maybe a native grass in the middle (1-2' tall) and then something in front of that. FYI, this would be the area where Yardvark put the blue flowers. It is hard to see, but it is in fact 8' deep. I'll also keep looking at hydrangeas.

It may not be your cup of tea but Calycanthus ‘Aphrodite’ definitely is tall enough, it’s listed between 5’ to 8’ in height on Proven Winners. Ours reached over 4’ its second year in the ground. It is also hardy for your zone 5a and will bloom well in part sun, at least ours does. I think most clematis prefer full sun and that’s where we grow ours, but others on here may know varieties that will work ok in your part sun location.

Oh, that's encouraging. I find it frustrating when I look at different sites for the same cultivars and they have different sizes listed. I do like it, esp the flowers.