People needed something to do with all the money they were no longer saving.

Personal savings rate, 1959-now

(I come from a big city-the kitchen table as small as it sometimes was, was still the center of all life:) That's where you stayed up at night and talked with guests too. We even have a separate expression to define this long-living cultural phenomena: "kitchen conversations". It's also a hint on freedom of thought and self-expression, because the kitchen was considered the safer place for these..:)

Now, my guests sit in the dining room and can stay there talking for hours-the only reason for it is there's no space for the table in the kitchen itself. )

I wanted to say that it made me very happy to check the mail in the morning and to come and find so many new interesting posts in this thread.

To your points, isn't there a whole forum here called kitchen table?

People needed something to do with all the money they were no longer saving.

There is that. My parents' kitchen had the DW replaced, the cooktop replaced and two new refrigerators in 45 years. The second fridge was replaced by my dad under some duress. (We had another 45 year old refrigerator and separate freezer of the same age in the basement). The floor was retiled as an insurance issue after the icemaker severely damaged the subfloor in that part of the kitchen, and if my parents had had enough of the old tile they probably would have replaced what needed to be replaced. And that's how most people they knew did things too.

And my dad, at almost 93 still says he is going to "run out of money" if he lives much longer. He's not, but at 93 that should be neither here nor there anyway, he could be taken care of.

But I grew up in an area where housing was absolutely Not an investment. He sold the house at a reasonable price, but it was hundreds of thousands less than the house would cost to actually rebuild in kind.

I am trying to look at my kitchen floor with new eyes. :) thanks for this Pal.

Skipped down to comment - apologies if someone else said this too:

I question the premise of 'plain'. Who's to say these were not the height of modern kitchen style when they were created? What looks plain & serviceable to us today was once innovative.

I watch a lot of old movies & am fascinated by the decor & fashions of the past. Hollywood has always featured the latest in fashion & style on screen. Kitchens certainly were more utilitarian in eras past, but 'utilitarian' things like formica or stainless steel countertops & steel cabinetry were once considered the height of modernity, y'know.

That said, I agree that simplicity & quality may have become way too expensive for many & cheaper, more opulent-appearing elements are 'in'. I think HGTV has contributed, as much as stores like Home Depot, Lowes & such. HGTV has been 1 big infomercial for the home improvement industry.

I guess the thing that I see in these kitchens is that despite being relatively high end because the house is high end, and despite the notion that they were used at least partly by the family (in some cases) and only by the family (in others), there is no particular relationship between the style of the house and the style of the kitchen even through the 1970s.

The first second pictured house is a Federal Period modernist hybrid, and that kitchen is purely functional, and the bath is modernist with no nod to Federal at all. (1960s)

The third house was Tudor Revival

The fourth pictured house is a traditional ranch that was furnished with exceptional mid-Century Asian Modern furniture.

The fifth pictured house was 1960s high Hollywood Regency.

The sixth seventh pictured house. house is a Colonial Revival with deco elements. Maybe there is a hint in the scalloped tole light fixtures.

I know it's a relatively new notion to match the style of the cabinetry and such to the style of the house, but again I think this has also veered to the opposite extreme with extremely elaborate kitchen and bath styles placed in otherwise casual and modest houses.

Because no one doing a kitchen today has lived through the depression and 1-2 major wars. People who did weren't obsessed with material stuff or outdoing others' stuff.

When it comes to a new relationship between the style of the kitchen and the style of the rest of the house, where before there wasn't much, I think a lot of it comes from the popularity of open concept plans. The kitchen for most of the 20th century was its own room, closed off from the rest of the house. Now it's part of, and visible from, just about every part of the house, from the entry hall to the living room.

When I was growing up, we'd all watch TV after dinner. We didn't have a dishwasher, so my siblings, mother, and I would take turn washing dishes at the commercials. It was common to hear someone calling from the living room in the kitchen, "It STARTED!" or "It's back ONNNN!".

Oh -- had another thought.

Many many homeowners move around a lot more than they did for reasons related to jobs, cultural opportunities, schooling for kids....

Moving seems to increase the desire to personalize.

[Sometimes out of necessity for those of us moving into fixers with "issues!]

Grandparents #1 moved into their house post-WWII. Both worked in the area their whole lives, and my [hardy!] 90+ grandmother's still there. Modest 4 BR/1 BA house (guessing around ~ 1600 SF) on a smaller lot so it was a little big for just the 2 of them and big for just her but not insanely so. Tiny (7x7?) kitchen with 3 doors (to DR, pantry, backyard) has been modestly updated in early 2000s.

Grandparents #2 lived in a slightly larger 3 BR/ 1.5 BA 30s home. Not sure when they moved in -- not long after it was built -- but they never really moved til elderly -- one passed and the other moved in with family then a nursing home as health declined.

My parent had it painted and carpets torn out to showcase perfect wood floors but original kitchen and baths were as-is. TBH I would happily live in a replica of that house even though the kitchen floor plan was a little off.

There was a time that feeding a family took significantly more hours and more work than it does now. If one is spending all that time cooking, having moldings and other trim features that collect dust, food etc. and took more time to clean would not be worth it.

I find it interesting that while we have a definite foodie culture now, it does not necessarily mean that people cook more. There are people who enjoy cooking and will spend significant time in the kitchen doing it but there are many, many more who will put great effort and money into a pretty kitchen that they will not spend much time in.

Of course, the cycles feed themselves. Houses at different price points are expected to have a certain level of "style" and so even if the homeowner themselves do not deem it necessary for them, if they need to sell the house in the future, it is in their best interest to go with the norm. Unfortunately, too, if you were to upgrade the quality of cabinets, if you are financing your build, it is not likely to increase the value of the appraisal which is a major consideration if one is not bringing a significant amount of cash into the transaction.

Not only are they not 'sturdy and serviceable' enough, but they're not big enough. Today's kitchen's are over-sized spaces usually with an oversized island which has replaced the space where a kitchen table/chairs would have been. Sq ft has been adjusted for a breakfast area, also usually much larger than necessary, as well as oversized pantry. Prep sinks, over the stove pot faucets, larger-than-average sink, cabinet embellishments, appliance 'garages', are just a few of the fancy smancy expectations of buyers who may NOT even cook, but are installed for resale value or 'just for show'. Seems there's no drawing the line to 'wants,' probably more than 'needs'. While I appreciate a beautiful kitchen it doesn't need to be a $75k-$100k showplace, unless you're a gourmet chef/baker where high end appliances are an added benefit.

Boomers came into large inheritances from those sturdy kitchen people and wanted their own "personal' style, not their parents. Throw in fancy kitchen magazines at every checkout, (30 years ago) then add later all the tv megapalooza to equal fancy kitchen, bathroom and garage.

Just curious-how many who have commented on this topic have moved into houses and left the original bathrooms and kitchen alone? After all as long as one can use the toilet, wash and bathe any bathroom is functional. As long as edible food can be stored and cooked, any kitchen is functional. But I'm willing to bet nobody here has actually deliberately chosen to live in outdated, aged and worn out facilities simply because it's 'wasteful' to update.

Our house is about 70 years old and had been badly abused by the last owners. We've lived here about 25 years now. The bathroom is essentially the same, same footprint, though we've replaced the toilet, tub, and sink -- in part because of the previously-mentioned abuse and also hard water in our area. We kept the original painted plywood vanity. It is definitely sturdy and serviceable!

In our kitchen, we kept all of the original kitchen cabinets on two perpendicular walls, and built more to match on the range wall; when we moved in, there was a lonely 80s electric range with nothing on either side. The range wall now has an O'Keefe & Merritt gas range, a pantry cabinet, several upper cabinets, one lower cabinet to the left of the range and a dishwasher to the right. We did, though, cut out part of the original upper cabinet doors to add glass, which makes the kitchen seem a little airier and more open.

And because the eat-in area, by the kitchen, was so narrow and so close to the front door, we built a dining room addition. Basically, we left what was still functional and changed what wasn't.

well i had owned 4 homes. I updated/built new in two of them. The first-since it basically came with a base cabinet plus sink for a kitchen..it was an apartment purchased for a subsidized price-lottery by the state that we won ..so it was, kinda, just a space for a future kitchen, with that sink cabinet.

Second, we didn't touch, it was pretty amazing, it was like the whole new level for me. Wonderful home(or rather townhome..how do you call these two-storied apartments?. Unfortunately we moved. The apartment stayed ours but renters weren't too kind to it. To put it mildly. In the end, we sold.

Third place, in the States already, I didn't touch. I wasn't in love(had no idea about trends, just wasn't my cup of tea) but didn't hate it either. It was a good layout, totally functional. Never even appeared to me that I should update it or something, What we did do, in several years-we put more textured floors in the bathrooms. The previous tile was white, slippery, drove me crazy. It still stayed the same in the shower-so I can tell you, last two years taking showers there was hard..I was constantly dizzy there. I had this teak bench but it didn't feel secure at all, somehow. If I knew the things would be like that I'd change the shower too. But you can't know stuff in advance. Not all of it.

Fourth place(now)-yes, since we abated asbestos and added to the house-we had to reinstall/build kitchen and bath. Which gave me opportunity to choose right materials for safety and stuff. Of course they have their shortcomings, but at least I don't think I'm going to fall each time I'm in the freaking shower.

We did leave out the most of the guest bathroom-it was recently partially tiled, so asbestos was safely buried there, and while I dislike the tile strongly-we had to save somewhere. So there we updated just superficial stuff..on the two walls that did come down..

I think most people don't touch stuff that much unless it bugs them to no end, or is poor layout, or they already do everything like we had to, and it makes sense to do everything at once, or they're into remodels, or they bought a fixer upper and were ready to work on it as is..as the buyers who bought our amazing second place that really needed to be all taken care of, after years or destruction. I cried when I saw it. But the bones were there, the space was there, the location and view was there..I couldn't be there, so we sold it to a young couple who liked DIY and wanted to make it their own. And it was their chance to buy -the prices went up like crazy. We sold it..maybe 2,5 multiple the price we paid ourselves? And we sold "as is"-not being in the country, we decided it's just easier, since who would oversee the remodel.

Sorry for the long and I'm sure not that interesting answer..bottom line, I think most people renovate pretty rarely. These forums are dedicated to homes, so it's a bit different..you come because you decided to do it for different reasons, or you're plainly interested in the topic. I don't think it describes the majority. But then I have a bit different experience than most here..I know more about other countries I lived in, but less about the US. So I learn here all the time. It's pretty fascinating I must say. Sometimes wildly different. Sometimes not.

But I'm willing to bet nobody here has actually deliberately chosen to live in outdated, aged and worn out facilities simply because it's 'wasteful' to update

No, probably not, and that's not really my point in this thread, although I may have talked about this in other threads, and this may have been mentioned in this thread.

I've never owned a house where I did not redo the kitchen. But I've never bought a house without thinking it needed a new kitchen before I bought it.

With the exception of the house with the large Chambers range, I can't tell, but in every other house posted these are Not the original kitchens.

House #1,2 had a near gut renovation because it had been a dive bar for decades on the first floor and probably never had plumbing upstairs at all.

House #4 has a circa 1960 kitchen, the house is 20 years older.

House #5 is mid-Century but the house seems a bit newer stylistically than the house

House #6,7 was built in 1930 and the kitchen is clearly 1950 or later while the bath is 1930.

So I am really talking about the style of ANY kitchen put in whether it's a new build or a replacement of an earlier one.

That said, I would willingly live with any of the kitchens pictured almost as is, if the appliances worked, could be repaired or could be replaced and put in the same locations, and I would live with a 1968 bathroom like the one above unaltered or a 1930 bathroom like that one above in a heartbeat, or, if I needed to rebuild or add a shower I would try to do it within the context of preservation.

I think study and serviceable is enough for the vast majority of Americans. This is a small slice of the population that is interested enough in home improvement to post here.

bonnie_ann, I think you are right.

One other thing that I wanted to add is that I intentionally chose these houses because of price, location and condition. The house with the four ovens is on the market for $4M and the property taxes are probably equal to what a mid-range kitchen remodel costs, one of the houses is in BelAir or Brentwood, the two local houses are in areas that attract affluent buyers. I think any of these houses are outside the context of the owners being house poor and not remodeling because they can't afford it. These kitchens have survived in good conditionfor half a century for other reasons. I specifically left out places like San Francisco in which the ability for anyone to afford a house is very limited and the codes and permitting are extremely stringent so time capsules survive because of the difficulties of remodeling.

That said, although all of these kitchens and baths have survived being dated for decades, I doubt any one of them (save the last bath perhaps) will survive the next owners.

This is the only picture of the kitchen in a house priced at 11.7K with 10 bedrooms and 10 baths. Will this kitchen survive the next owners?

The house for some context

I don't think this kitchen will survive the next owners, no. It seems a bit small for the size of the house actually, in terms of working layout and appliances. The 1930s house I show has three more ovens and 1-2 more burners and actual range hoods, as well as an island. I am assuming no butler's pantry since none is shown. I wonder if the second kitchen shown was originally in a staff area?

I don't think the black and white bathroom they show will survive the next owner either, if that is the master. I am not sure why they are showing that bath with ten to choose from. On a site like Estately I have seen 60 pictures, so the pictures of the kitchen and baths are skimpy. Maybe this bath is a "typical"

"Sturdy and serviceable" equate to "old, and you have no idea of the guts of this place". It also, most often, means never updated. It doesn't mean it isn't operable, doesn't mean it can't, probably, live well for somebody who wants to live in 2017.

But it does mean that if anybody tries to upgrade? They know they're in for $50K of upgrades, just to get to code. At least. Wiring, venting etc. Even building/remodeling a simple kitchen. And who knows how the beams have held up? That's where you're likely to find the real trouble

It's a lot like asking why a car from the 40s isn't considered as functional as a car from today. Things have moved on.

well..of course everything needs to be maintained well, and updated at some point.

I, for example, would like to be updated lol..and I'm younger than our house

Yes, april, me too, on the maintenance front!

But the question why why is there $4 million dollar properties that famous peopled lived in that are considered out dated and in need of service? Because they are- same as you and me. Difference for me is that nobody has to cook a meal on my body or my bones.

Juanita, I understand what you are saying, things can't be neglected. But that's not really my question in this thread. I predict that all of the kitchens I have pictured will be replaced, (and I know that one kitchen and one bath already have). My question is why have we moved so far away from replacing those kitchens with what would essentially be the modern counterpart of those kitchens, to replacing them with something so elaborate, and possibly, ultimately less useful?

For example, this sort of vanity (with the exception of the custom wastebasket) used to be the sort of built-in vanity that any carpenter could build, and it would be relatively inexpensive and solidly built. Now, something like this is much more expensive than

...something like this: , and this is the sort of thing that will be put in some houses like those above.

I haven't read the replies, BUT I would take that final posted bathroom in a HOT minute! Please tell me it has a shower!

I don't understand getting rid of perfectly sound usable things like many people do these days. In the house I'm in now there are all sorts of items I would never personally pick. One bathroom has navy and sort of warm cream shower/bath tile, not my taste. However, after I painted the good quality vanity navy it looks great in there. There is almost always ways to tweek and make it work. Strangely those are the rooms you will get the most compliments on. All you have to do is add just enough new updated items (not too much) to make it all look fresh and purposeful. I love ugly because beauty is always close behind with a little imagination.

I've owned six homes. Most were 30-40 years old. I've only remodeled one kitchen or bath - the kitchen in our last house that was about 35 years old. It was functional but I mainly got tired of laying on the floor reaching into the back of the lower corner cabinets or getting on a step stool to reach things in the upper corner cabinets. The bathroom was never remodeled other than some new faucets when the old quit working, a new vanity top when the old one cracked, a new fan when the old one quit working and a new light fixture. Otherwise I've retained and used all the perfectly serviceable kitchens and baths including one lovely aqua green one. One bathroom we did have to redo the tub/shower combo because it was leaking into the basement and the walls had rotted. I pretty much believe in retaining what I have if it's in good repair. We've never bought a house with the intention of tearing anything out and re-doing. They're acceptable enough when we buy that we can live with everything as is other than maybe painting and repairing and replacing things as they wear out. I'm not hung up on having the latest stuff. If you leave some things long enough they become fashionable again and if you pick a house with basic, classic elements it's pretty neutral - never really out of style.

Sigh. I'd be thrilled to have that kitchen in a next purchase. Retrofit some drawers in, of course. :)

As a former real estate appraiser, I don't think this is quite accurate: "I think sturdy and serviceable is enough for the vast majority of Americans. This is a small slice of the population that is interested enough in home improvement to post here." Yes, posters here of course are.

But people have notions of what is appropriate for them, and out have gone a very large portion of the truly excellent "formica" counters that still had decades of use in them and a whole lot of the ceramic tile counters, no matter how serviceable.

There aren't kitchen departments in every big box store because replacing often very good layouts "have-to-have-an-island" is uncommon. And so on throughout the typical home. If nothing else changes, counters and floors are brought, not to greater serviceability, but just current with what "people like us" have.

Writersblock: "wonderful new materials and styles that technology advances have made widely available for the first time? Including fine, enduring materials and fine (yes, relatively speaking) crafting.

I want to live in this country, please, wherever it might be. It's certainly not on the list of any I've ever visited/lived in."

Maybe consider being in 1970 and wanting anything like fine craftsmanship, stone counters with ogee edges and virtually invisible joints, at least the ability to choose various designs of turned wood and stone corbels and moldings, a wide variety of door fronts, as well as drawers in lower cabinets, a wide selection of the kind of tightly fitted floor tile now available. Versions of most did exist then but were available to the very well to do and pretty much no one else. Wood cabinet boxes are as sturdy as they ever were. And, of course, things like easy-glide drawer systems were unheard of. Same for insulated, low-e windows.

Sure, bad quality is also still widely available. But the bad workmanship that was very common has pretty much gone by the way. People don't build their own cabinets any more, or hire the local guy available to use whatever materials were available. We tend not to realize just how common substandard construction and "design" were because so much of it of necessity was redone long ago.

Reminds me, the lower cabinets in the last kitchen I redid had no bottoms and one half-depth shelf set so high up you had to crouch to find it. For 50 years occupants had been stacking stuff on the linoleum flooring that continued inside them. (!) Trying purchasing that in particleboard or anything else at Home Depot.

To my observation, this is the country we live in.

Well, I can only say I'm glad that's the case where you are. In FL, where I live, there used to be lots of skilled tile and stone craftsmen and there are still some if you can afford them. But builder grade is at least as miserable as it was in the 70s, for sure. Glossier when new, maybe, but falls apart much faster than the old stuff. Substandard has always been around to some extent, but there's always a lot more in markets with lots of new development. If you live in a built-out area that might explain your perspective vs mine. There are still plenty of new subdivisions going up around here.

In my experience drawer boxes are much sturdier than they were in the middle of the century when the face of the drawer and the front of the drawer box were often the same piece. So I think to some extent, affordable cabinets are a bit sturdier.

I don't think the new finishes are as good as traditional finishes (depending). I know some of the the finishes are high tech, but some of them also are microns thin and seem to scratch easily.

Granite is a durable, if not bulletproof countertop material that is more accessible than ever.

But I think the bar has been raised with expectations of countertop materials. Laminate is a perfectly fine material if you use a cutting board and a trivet. I don't know where the expectation came from that you should be able to set something right from the broiler on the counter and expect no complications. Same with leaving things that stain or etch on the surface for 24 hours as a test.

My last house had a matte white laminate with oak trim. The counters were 20 years old. I hated that oak trim but the counter still looked terrific.

Laminate countertops are not the same as yesteryear on hardiness. They scratch so much easier.

Well, I think that people nowdays are trained not to know what is good value and what will last. If they did, they wouldn't keep our economy going with constant consumer spending on cheap goods. I cannot believe it when I see folks tear out solid wood features in their homes and replace them with stuff made of particle board, plastic resins or worse. Modern trim is basically painted cardboard. I doubt most of our ancestors or people from less affluent parts of the world would complain about "dated" looks. Besides, there's "dated" which never looked good in the first place and is now worn out, but there is also "classic" which if you have good taste and good sense, can be worked with an never goes out of style. Knowing what was classic and what was quality used to be a desirable human trait. Not so much anymore. Now just having lots of disposable income and constantly buying stuff is what is "cool."

This is also fed by those horrible home reno shows. I can't believe the way they ruin some homes.

Amen to that last.

I agree with almost everything you've said, l pinkmountain, but this:

there is also "classic" which if you have good taste and good sense, can be worked with an never goes out of style.

All styles go through a period of being embarrassing before they become classic. But back in the Middle Ages when I was young, we were told, "Buy the best quality you can afford, take care of it, and use it till it falls apart." Nothing in that about "until it's so outdated it makes you squirm."

The few things I've seen that never had an out-of-fashion era were things that were always a little outside the norm. For instance, my mother had a friend who was dressed by Bonnie Cashin before she got all corporate, and Grace wore those same clothes from her 30s until she died in her late 80s. They were always pretty "out there," never exactly on trend, and they stayed in the same relationship to mainstream fashion for fifty years. If she'd tried to be classic she would have had to start over a bunch of times, as things like, say, "the little black dress" got redefined over and over.

This post struck a chord with me, and I've enjoyed reading through all of the thoughtful responses. In answer to the question runningplace posed, I am one person commenting on this thread who has never renovated a kitchen or bathroom in any home I've owned. My parents never have either, and they lived in one home for 18 years and have been in their current home for 29 years so that's saying something! But you definitely would not find them hanging out on this forum, either ;) They are strongly averse to wastefulness and raised my siblings and me to be grateful for what we have and to prioritize experiences over things, so having internalized that lesson (moreso than any of my siblings) it is often a moral struggle for me to spend money on superficial things.

My parents' current house was built in the '70s so you can imagine what the bathrooms and kitchen look like. Peeling wallpaper has been removed and their dark brown oven and cabinets painted, but everything else is a well maintained '70s time capsule. In my parents' case, my Dad doesn't much care about the superficial so long as things are functioning well, and if they're not he's handy enough to fix them. My mom has never liked the aesthetics of their current house, but she knows renovating and "updating" will not change that. She's content to just keep things clean and cared for until they sell the house, knowing full well the next owners will make extensive renovations. My dad loves the property their house is on and my mom loves him, and those two reasons have kept them there for almost 30 years now.

Maybe it's partly the way I was raised, but I know I'm not your typical homeowner with typical American values. I do care about quality (sturdiness), and I care too (more than my parents anyway) about visual appeal. I only purchased one home when I was single, and was very lucky to have find one I loved that was within my budget, where I knew I'd be happy to live without renovating anything. Interestingly, the kitchen resembled a more modest, scaled down version of one of the kitchens palimpsest posted. The house was built in 1900 but outfitted with a Youngstown kitchen sometime in the '50s that survived, in great condition, until I purchased the house in 2000. I loved that kitchen just as it was, in part because it was similar to the one in the house where I grew up with its metal cabinets and Formica countertops edged with chrome. There were aspects I didn't love, but it all worked and served my needs well. Here are a couple of (converted to b&w) pictures of that kitchen in 2004 when I sold the house.

When my husband and I built "our" house we made it as classic and un-trendy as we were able, partly because I love old houses and that classic look (I would have much preferred an old house but that's another story), and partly because I don't ever want to have to renovate. I'm all for DIY projects such as painting, adding built-ins, and tweaking things in ways to make our house reflect our tastes and needs, but full on renovations aren't for me. There are many, many things I would have done differently had we been building on our current budget, and though we could comfortably afford to rip out and remodel at this point, it does feel wasteful to me. I find inspiration in making do with what we have and finding new uses for old things, though often that's at odds with the pressure in our culture to buy new and showy things and throw the old things in the garbage because they're "dated."

There are very good reasons to remodel in many cases, and I truly admire those who can walk into a home and have a vision for how to make it into something beautiful that fits their lifestyle and aesthetic. Unfortunately, many newer homes are not all that sturdy, so I also understand why people sometimes choose to renovate rooms in relatively new homes. I do wish smaller, better quality homes were the norm more so than expansive, poor quality ones, but that demand for big and cheap must be coming from somewhere for the builders to keep cranking them out the way they are (at least in the area where I live).

Sometimes I wish I didn't have to take things so seriously and could indulge my decor ideas with wild abandon, but it's not who I am. Maybe that's what I love about his forum so much. I get to see what other people are doing and it gives me vicarious satisfaction while I (very slowly) work on my little projects and think about finishing our basement. The place I can really indulge my need to create and revise in real life is in our yard. Speaking of which, I've got some serious pruning to do...

My 2 cents. Trends are fueled by the manufacturers. They don't want to sell you one refrigerator for the rest of your life -- they want to sell you a new "in style" refrigerator every five or six years as well as cabinets, countertops and light fixtures.

On HGTV shows, I see nice kitchens from the 80s and 90s and people, walk in and go "OMG, that is AWFUL"! they're not. It's nice wood cabinets and a lot were quality but they're not white -- they're usually oak, the countertop is often tile and it's not granite and there are a lot of uppers and there is NO island with pendants hanging over it! So it's awful!

In 20 years, people will be ripping out the marble/quartz/granite countertops and those white cabinets and doing away with islands for another fad.

I live in an antique house and I prefer "classic" -- it is not but my kitchen "feels" like a kitchen that goes with my house. It's small, it has a door and I cook in there -- we don't have company in there, we don't entertain in there -- it is a food factory -- now as it was when it was built. It's plain jane compared to the rest of the house. And I didn't need to SEE my daughter in the living room -- I could hear her and when she got older she spent more time in her bedroom anyway and there are walls and doors around bedrooms. So you can't see in them.

Now, going from kitchens and baths to laundry rooms -- why are people DECORATING laundry rooms? It's where you wash, dry, fold and perhaps iron clothes. It's small -- why pictures and decor? I've never understood that trend. It's a FUNCTIONAL room not a "pretty" room. But builders are making it bigger and bigger so that you can have cabinets and storage and . . . decor!

Of course, in my house, it's in the basement and I'm sure not going to hang pictures down there -- it's strictly functional . . . but because it is in the basement I get to leave my ironing board up all the time!!!

that's a very interesting observation, writersblock

indeed we like and appreciate harmony and perfection..yet we fall in love with the slightly off. its uniqueness stays with us, doesn't let go.

that's what I understood when looking for a long, long time at Venus of Milo in Louvre. she's very beautiful; but so is every statue in Louvre.

yet I loved her the most

and I was staring and trying to get why. and suddenly the answer-my answer, since all the answers are probably a bit different-came to me. she's a symbol of womanly beauty, right? yet at a certain angle, for a brief moment, she looks like a boy. And then it fleets away. And then it comes back again. And you're standing there feeling like the waves are hitting you and splitting from under your feet, like they were supposedly hitting her and splitting before her when she came out of the sea.

That's her magic..you can't really define her.

Whatever we never can fully define has a huge staying power over us. We never end to figure it out.

I also loved what justerrilynn said, about the beauty and the ugly

actually I love so many posts whether I agree with them fully word by word or not I kinda feel like making my list of quotes from this thread.

Writersblock, I agree that for the most part, things go through a period of being "dated" or "embarrassing" before they become classic. But I also think that some things are just so plain and were so "never trendy" that they don't go through the "ugly/dated/embarrassing" period.

And Juanita, just to reiterate, I think that there is a difference between a house that is essentially a well-maintained time-capsule and something that's old and neglected. My father had the roof replaced, and bought a new refrigerator when he was 90. My parents still had painters come and touch up and various service people come and inspect and maintain things when they were in their 80s.

The big thing that came up on the inspection when they sold was that the outlets adjacent to the sinks were not GFI. There is a big difference between an old house that's been maintained carefully and one that hasn't. Here are some pictures; some people have seen these before.

These are the original cabinets and they've always been white. Also the original sink and laminate from 1969. Clearly "dated" but I don't think either the laminate or the cabinet color or style was so trendy that it was ever embarrassing.

Close of of the laminate in front of the sink

Toaster oven area over the Dishwasher. This was an area of very heavy use. These are Corning glass (pyrex like) counter protectors. These is a small chip in the laminate.

Laminate and sink in main bathroom. Again, dated, but in 1969 white was not particularly trendy. I don't think this was ever ugly or embarrassing. They still make that faucet.

Oven from 1969. This also shows the cabinets

The inside. This oven was heavily used. No amount of cleaning before this picture was taken could make it look like this if it had been abused at all

Basement refrigerator. 1969. There are a couple marks on the interior. but again if it had been abused, you could never make it look like this by just cleaning it

That said, there are strong arguments for redoing the kitchen. The layout could be better, the cabinets are really getting worn out mechanically, and a few other things. But the style of the kitchen fits very comfortably in the house and I have a feeling its replacement won't quite "fit" the same way.

My parents had a very similar kitchen but although same door style theirs was stained Jacobean. They had the same oven too. The only reason they ended up redoing the kitchen was because the ge oven was a hard to find size and thEy were unable to source a model that would fit in the existing cabinetry which was built in place and could not be altered they were told. I miss that kitchen although they reused the sink ...if it ain't broke...

what is good value and what will last.

When I bought my first home now almost 20 years ago, I marched straight to the same furniture store my parents' had gone to, and ordered Kindel and Baker and Stickley to furnish it. I believed it was an investment. Now it is "brown wood" that no one else would want, as we've posted on many times before.

I am not sure if it actually does make sense to buy expensive things that last, when it comes to fashion and home fashion. It is green, but it is not necessarily a good idea economically. I have plenty of regrets about buying high end things. You become beholden to them. OTOH, i have high end things I treasure and enjoy. I am not sure how I would advise people furnishing their first home, but I don't think I would tell them to do what I did.

I don't know where the expectation came from that you should be able to set something right from the broiler on the counter and expect no complications. Same with leaving things that stain or etch on the surface for 24 hours as a test.

I am not so sure it was an expectation as much as a welcome improvement. In a family with kids, like it or not, the odds are at some point a kid will cut something on a counter or put a hot pan somewhere they should not. In the old days, you lived with that mistake forever or paid a lot to fix it. I know I love my distressed antique zinc-topped "pastry table" that I use as an island. It just makes it easier to know you can't do anything to mess it up.

BTW, I recall clearly when I redid the kitchen in our first house, 14 yrs ago, I fell in love with a kitchen display that had limestone counters. The KD said. its just for show, you could never use limestone in a kitchen, or marble!

As far as kitchen being so much more elaborate than the last generation... my grandparents generation were just excited to have appliances. My Mom's generation was excited to get them in colors, and now my generation is OTT.

I may be one of the only people, JTerri, that ever bought a kitchen and removed the island in favor of a large round table and chairs. But I am still not an island person at all. I have one for buffets, really, and one as a prep space near my freestanding range.

I freely admit I am a lemming who likes the next, new shiny thing I am told is "in". There are some exceptions ; heirloom, one of a kind, something from our travels.

When I bought my first home now almost 20 years ago, I marched straight to the same furniture store my parents' had gone to, and ordered Kindel and Baker and Stickley to furnish it. I believed it was an investment. Now it is "brown wood" that no one else would want, as we've posted on many times before.

I am not sure if it actually does make sense to buy expensive things that last, when it comes to fashion and home fashion.

That's interesting, MtnRd, I did much the same thing from the time I got my first apartment, and also inherited my parents' Kindel and Henkel Harris "brown wood" furniture. Though I bought/kept that furniture not because I thought it would be an investment but because I liked it and knew I could live with it for a long time. As it turns out, my taste hasn't changed or wavered much in the last 30 or so years : ) , and the now vintage brown wood mixes well with antiques.

I agree that for the most part, things go through a period of being "dated" or "embarrassing" before they become classic. But I also think that some things are just so plain and were so "never trendy" that they don't go through the "ugly/dated/embarrassing" period.

This has been my thought as the Seventies Retro look has become popular. As far as I'm concerned, once was enough. But maybe some of the things from that period will become "modern classics"!

Though I bought/kept that furniture not because I thought it would be an investment but because I liked it and knew I could live with it for a long time.

Just to be clear I didn't mean an investment literally, i meant an investment in the sense that it would last a long time both in terms of quality and look. I think it failed in the latter, for the simple fact that the next generation does not want this stuff.

Pal, you are speaking my language. Those perfectly good, serviceable, kitchens have my heart. I have enjoyed your photos and the lively discussion.

My neighborhood was primarily built in the 20s to 50s, and the homes originally all had a similar style kitchen and bath. They seemed to reflect the prevailing fashion at the time, but the style was independent of the exterior -- think Tudor, Colonial, Mission, etc. This is what Pal noted above... but marketing was alive and well at the time, and people were convinced to get the latest conveniences and adopt the latest technologies and color schemes (e.g. Monel). As is the case today, I think the inhabitants were primary victims -- I mean targets -- of the marketing machine -- it's just 100x stronger today. But I also acknowledge the styles and designs for the mass market were much more limited -- everyone got the same art deco influenced door knobs, whether the home was a Cape Cod to true Art Deco.

At some point in time, stuff started to break or problems developed in the infrastructure (leaks, pipes closing up, orangeburg sewer pipes) that caused people to make changes. I think my house has had at least five different guest bathroom floors during that time frame, although the shower tile now reflects the original (that is not the case with the other rooms or with the floor).

So back to the original question, which is, is "sturdy and functional enough"? But isn't that today's white shaker cabinet and white subway tile?

Why is sturdy and serviceable no longer "enough"?

It's a little like being a woman isn't it?

Tonight I'm watching old movies. I have never watched Gentelman Prefer Blondes before. It dawned on me that Jane Russel would be considered humongous in the "ideal" look of today. I'm not talking the derrière I'm talking the hip span. Gigantic! Way bigger than the Kardashians. Today you have to have big boobs, bubble butt, little waist and slim hips( I think?).

People on this form often ask questions regarding how long something will stay in style. The answer is that if you buy it now it will stay in style as long as big boobs, bubble butts, little waists and slim hips are in style.

In a few years we might go through another "twiggy" and all else will be to much of enough and again pushed to the curb. However, if you hold onto it everything circles back around again.

Unless...

Yes, sturdy and functional enough is today's white shaker cabinet and subway tile backsplash with a granite countertop.

But there has been the addition of elaborate pendants or chandeliers, more elaborate tile with more delicate surfaces (what to do behind the range), and softer stones for the countertops that scratch and etch, stain, and possibly absorb moisture and oils.

Mtn said above that being able to put a pan right off the broiler or leave something that stains or etches on the counter for 24 hours is an improvement.

It's an improvement if it can actually be done. The only completely heat and stain resistant countertops that I know of are stainless (which scratches or dents), true soapstone (which requires oiling or, if you accept a living finish, the ability to let the finish patina:scratch, get blotchy, and look completely different in the sink) or Pyrolave which is ceramic coated fired lava (which can cost as much as a mid range kitchen remodel just for the countertops). Then at the high end of the market like these houses start adding Subzeros (which have reliability issues) Viking (which has reliability issues) French Ranges (which potentially have a variety of issues and need to be adapted to be used in America, depending upon the brand) Miele Dishwashers (which require that you "do" things to them like add salt and clean filters and such)

--I had a SubZero, a Miele, and Asko laundry, and soapstone counters and sink, so I know.

So on some level, especially at the higher end, like these houses, there is a step backward in terms of practicality, and then sometime you start adding cabinetry with elaborate mouldings and corbels and this that and the other thing, and suddenly it's not so sturdy and serviceable.

And again, in this thread, my emphasis was not really about keeping these time capsule kitchens, but rather how different their replacements will probably be in character.

I don't know..it might depend on a location a lot. Materials used, ways that renovations are done. I think 90% of countertops in Israel are limestone (or were..not that I've been around many homes there a lot lately, unlike in the past), because that is what's there in abundance. So it makes sense to use what's there. It stains and etches and then you get over it.

I'm sure now they use Quartz too, would make sense. I hope theirs is better than mine lol.

And wood is crazily expensive because it's scarce..so wood floors are not installed usually..stone or porcelain that mimics it is, because again, it's what's available and suits the climate. Laminate, yes..some people put laminate. Some people probably put wood too but I have never met them.

Most people won't have really big kitchens so they won't have big appliances. Most people won't have islands either.

That's probably why I never really wanted to have an island, the same way I never want to eat mussels..I never had them so no idea what I'm missing on.

I saw wall to wall carpets first time in my life when I stepped on this continent. Also popcorn ceilings. Ah, and the toilet bowls are different too! the water stands. I remember worrying the toilets were broken lol. Then I realized it's just different construction. The ceilings fascinated me..I never saw non-smooth ceilings before. I looked up and stared at it, first several days, like it was the most interesting thing ever.

On the other hand in Eastern part of former USSR where I spend my childhood you had either wood or linoleum. Never stone. Also makes sense since well, no shortage of wood. And we didn't have any tiles. The kitchens were sort of unfitted, even if the cabinets matched and all(ours matched)..and mm..I don't remember whether we had countertops? If yes it was formica but frankly I don't remember countertops. Anyway, we did everything on the kitchen table. And the sink was kinda just a sink? with a shelf for dishes above it. Most bathrooms also didn't have tiles. Just washable paint.

Of course things there changed a lot since then, and people renovate if they can afford it.

Wallpaper (in the rooms) was popular and stays popular.

The few homes I've been to, when I visited a couple of times, they were pretty much as I remembered though. Not really remodeled or updated. We went to visit a friend and everybody stayed glued to that tiny kitchen of hers and talked for hours..there were not enough chairs so I sat on the floor. Nobody was keen on moving to the living room. That's funny how you continue to do things in the way you're used to.

Sorry for blubbering..so many memories.

We have a 1960 house that had very few modifications or updates. Every room is designed precisely for enough furniture to live with comfortably, leaving not an extra spare inch of space. It's ingenious, really.

Previous owner had put in some popcorn ceiling, some paneling, added a small-tile mosaic backsplash in the kitchen and had put an open cut-out window in a wall of the bedroom that opens off the central kitchen/dining room. As they got older, they got sick but wanted to stay home, so that was the invalid/sick room, and they were able to participate and still be part of the family. All else was original.

Luckily there are two small bathrooms, so we started with the one that had just a tub, no shower. We updated materials In both bathrooms, adding a shower over the tub, replacing the fixtures exactly where they were. Again, no extra space to remodel.

Now it's time for the 10x10 kitchen. Cabinetry is original and in fair condition. Drawers produce sawdust when opened and closed. The wall ovens went out for the second time, so we called in kitchen remodelers because enough already. We just want to replace the cabinets and use some modern tweaks and we want to stay true to the mid-century vibe. The remodelers want to tear down a wall and "open it up". We say no, we chit-chat about the project and then we never hear from them again.

We have done our best to retain original features like the scalloped fireplace mantel. Original windows and scalloped exterior trim had to go due to age and condition. The landscape had been dialed back to gravel and scalloped brick edging, so we removed that and are restoring plantings.

Everything else has been cosmetic. Paint, wood floor refinishing and so forth. Oh yes, there was the matter of upgrading the electrical to 200-amp service and replacing the furnace ....

Still, it's been really fun updating this house. And there were nobody else's improvements to tear out and somehow that makes it easier.