Electric Water Heater 4500 w to 5500 w Elements
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
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Actual cost of doing wash loads at high temps w/ internal heater
Comments (11)Good morning, I knew there would be people who were as obssessed as I am with this data! To respond to the questions (in no particular order): Yes, my DH reports that we will be able to break out the machines' components (motors vs heater) individual electrical draws. My machines have at least two motors: drain pump and drum rotator/spin. It was easy to see them in the graph as it was happening, but we will need more experience to be able to accurately capture all the data. As far as the efficiency of energy used by an internal heater vs a DHW appliance, Dadoes is correct. It's a theoretical wash (LOL!). Our DHW is electric, not propane, so fuel is identical. There is also no loss of temp in the pipes (though that heat wouldn't be wasted as it's under the house, anyway). In theory, allowing for age and any scale on the calrods, it should take precisely the same energy in both appliances. Functionally as livebetter pointed out, however, beefy internal heaters fed only cold water provide the very-useful "profile wash" characteristic. (Profile washes are a deliberate stepped rise in temps that improves washing perferformance.) In addition, an on-board heater also allows the machine to maintain the desired temp throughout the whole wash phase, which I believe improves washing performance as well. As far as loopholes in the mandated energy ratings, I believe that may be at play these days, particularly for the newest generations of machines (mine are 15-19 years old). However I think heating water is less of an issue there than overall water use requirements. Nunyabiz noted my use of high temps as being atypical. I agree, but point out that I also use very little detergent compared to many. That's obviously a function of my good water quality, but I also can get away with using less partly because I use higher temps because temperature, time, agitation energy and detergent are all wrapped up together in the cleaning equation. Of course, I almost never wash clothes at 190F, just linens, cleaning cloths and pet bedding which can stand it. In addition to the profound cleaning these items get, the regular use of higher temps keeps my washer clean of bio-film and product build-up, etc. No small thing for FLs, it seems. (Overnight, I did another load similar to #2 & 3 and it's energy cost was 22 cents. But that's without the extra "starch" cycle which has to be selected manually after the progam is finished. I will check and see what it costs, all by itself.) It seems to me that heating the water, particularly for people who choose more "more normal" max temps, is not the cost driver on each load. My DH reports the machine's vampire load is a stable 3 watts; let's see, 3 x 24 x 365 = 26 KWH/year or $3.90 year. Except I have more than one washing machine .... Anyway, now that I know that, a big ole circuit-opening switch will be high on my DH's honey-do list. More data (and more details) as I organize them. L....See MoreReplacing electric hot water heater - should I go hybrid?
Comments (37)Saltidog, Dude, chill. I was respectfully saying you had a different opinion - not what your opinion was or that it had anything to do with the heating elements. You can disagree without being disagreeable. I do understand thermodynamics very well, thank you. There is no "trend" and no misrepresentation. Yes, the units have resistive elements as backup, for high demand situations, and when the ambient temperature gets low enough that enough heat can't be extracted using the heat pump (for geospring unit that's 45 degrees F) Saltidog, I don't know what you are getting your panties in a bunch about... yes, I understand your heater works well for you. I would expect that. It's installed in a basement that's at least 700 cubic feet of space. Because it's underground it will maintain a temperature of around 50 - 55 degrees or more if there are other heat sources in the basement. That's enough to allow the heat pump to work just fine. The water heater will work in almost all situations / applications where one would normally install a tank heater. It will even run on the heat pump in most situations. The question is when you have the water heater in a fully conditioned space (not basement) and that space is being heated. At that time, one is shifting the heating load of the water heater to the furnace - which may or may not be more cost effective. I think the water heaters are great - esp if they can work out the reliability problems (which I think are teething pains, not inherent problems). I stick by my assertion that there are three applications whereby they produce the most system efficiency / cost effectiveness....See More2000W 120 V Water Heater - 30A Circuit Required?
Comments (12)OK, so based on the OP's facts, and using this morning's undiscounted Home Depot prices in my area (Virginia), the 240V solution would be $23.89 or 68% more expensive (see calculations below). If the question were restricted to the materials cost of wiring alone, the single-pole HWH heater would set a DIYer back an additional ten bucks. Big deal. And, true, #14 is easier to work with, but we're talking about a 20' run with two connections. Again, big whoop. It seems to me that the determining factor is whether or not the smaller 15-gallon unit is fully adequate to do the job. I have no informed opinion about that, but on first glance it sounds as though it is. (Plus the OP likes the space-saving aspect as well.) Missing from the analysis are the recurring costs. It stands to reason that it takes more power to keep 20 gallons warm than 15 gallons. Depending on how long the unit is kept in service, any small difference in wiring costs would likely be eclipsed by energy costs over time. I know that, to some people, bigger is always better, but the greener I get, the less often I buy into that proposition. But perhaps that's religion or politics, eh? FWIW (very little, I'm sure), I'm not seeing any significant advantage to the 20-gallon 240V model unless the 15-gallon unit is inadequate to do the job reliably and efficiently. - Tom *** 120V *** 30A single pole breaker: $5.21 25' 10-2 NM wire @ 1.19: 29.75 HWH price differential: 0.00 (baseline) Materials total: $34.96 *** 240V *** 15A double-pole breaker: $11.30 25' 14-2 NM wire @ .57: 14.25 HWH price differential: +33.00 Materials total: $58.85 Breaker prices above are averages of three common types: 30A/SP: BR=3.27, QO=7.12, GE=5.25, Average=$5.21 20A/DP: BR=7.47, QO=15.47, GE=10.97, Average=$11.30...See MoreElectric water heater.:swap 4500w elements to 3800w to run on 20 amps?
Comments (5)Thanks, Vith. I appreciate it. I suspected that it should work. With the lower watt elements 12G wiring should be okay (as opposed to 10G), correct? The heater I am looking at actually has an identical "twin" (only available via special order) that has 3800 watt elements pre-installed (with 12G wire and 20a double pole breaker recommended).. All other specs are the same. That led me to believe they were the same unit except for the elements (and thus the element swap should work). I would have just purchased the special order "twin" but it would be hard for the family to go two weeks without hot water. Oh...and good advice on re-labeling the unit as 3800w. Cheers....See More
7 years agoI can't comment on every possible heater out there... but I've never seen that in the field. This is the wiring diagram on a standard heater. The top thermostat runs until the top third of the tank gets hot, then switches over to the bottom. With this setup, they both can't run at the same time and that is by design.
If it were possible for both elements to fire at the same time, by design, then the heater would require a 60 amp circuit.
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Jake The Wonderdog