The bottom edge of the lower oven should probably not much lower than 6" or 8" below the top of the counters. Any lower and it becomes awkward to reach into.

Sorry for responding late. Below are some photos of our remodel. A belated thank you for everyone on this forum who helped with design decisions, it was immensely helpful.

For a variety of reasons, we ended up stacking the CO (bottom), warming drawer (middle), and CSO (top). Like kfpwvt, I would highly recommend mocking out what makes sense for you, but this has worked very well for us. The primary reason we chose this is to have the warming drawer at counter height, which was highly recommended on other forums, and means that we use this fairly regularly for warming coffee mugs (perk in the morning!), plates, and keeping food warm at dinner time. I am 6' and my wife is 5'10", so having the CSO where it is is perfectly fine for us, but some would consider it too high. I am really happy with the layout though, and find it easy to use/access all of the appliances, and definitely like having the CSO higher since that is the one we use slightly more than the CO (although we use both quite regularly).

On other topics raised here, a few opinions:

* Induction vs Gas. I'd generally +1 kfpwvt's comment on induction. We went that route (Miele) and have been generally happy with it. It's amazingly efficient, looks sleek, is cleaner, and is much safer with kids. There is definitely a learning curve to it, though, and there are times I miss gas and having a more "analog" visual for heat. I kinda wish we chose a hybrid route, with something like 2/3 induction, and 1/3 gas, and I think you can do mix/match with certain vendors (e.g. Wolf). Overall I am an induction fan, but there are pros/cons and it's worth making sure you like it before making the leap.

* One brand vs many. Also agree with kfpwvt, it's your kitchen, so do what you want. I personally went with all Miele, because I liked all of their products, and I do think that from an aesthetic point of view, it looks better having same branded appliances (particularly multiple ovens), but I'd have no problem aesthetically mixing and matching say Miele CSO/CO/warming drawer with a Wolf rangetop, for example. Ultimately it comes down to how much you value functionality of each appliance versus aesthetic considerations.

Since you asked about other appliances, here is the full list of appliances that we got for kitchen, and quick thoughts on each.

* Miele CSO: awesome and love it. Having steam is a game changer for veggies and other foods, and having an easy sous vide option has been fantastic for doing "make ahead dinners" (e.g. put some chicken breasts in the oven around lunch time and have them perfectly cooked for dinner, ready to sear). It's a really high performance oven that I enjoy using

* Miele CO: like it, no complaints

* Miele 36" induction. Generally happy with it. User interface takes some getting used to, can be a bit quirky, but overall very powerful and efficient

* Miele 24" speed oven. I regret this one a bit, to be honest. This is where I probably got a little too cute on the "all Miele" train. We started with "we need a 24" undercounter microwave", escalated to "let's get the Miele 24" undercounter microwave", and then "well, why not get the speed oven since it's the same size so we have yet another oven for Thanksgiving". All good in theory, but the reality is, I've only used the convection oven part of the speed oven once, since we already have two large ovens with convection capability. The two big issues with this are: a) the microwave user interface is clunky. To use the microwave, you have to go through a couple layers of menus. It's not a huge deal, but for something we use frequently, we miss the simple and easy interface of more standard microwave options. and b), we've had this appliance serviced about 2x/year because there's a systemic problem with the door sensor that causes the oven to not start. Fortunately it's been covered by warranty each time, but overall I think the speed oven is a bit more trouble than it's worth, for us and would have rather gone a "conventional microwave" approach. Think it could be a good option for kitchens that want a second oven and don't go the steam oven route

* Miele Pro dishwasher (240V) - love love love this thing. I think Miele dishwashers are really well designed and have a good reputation for a reason. What I particularly love is that a) it's quiet, and b) it can do a full cycle in 23 minutes. You need a 240V hookup for it and it's a lot more expensive than other options, but a friend pushed me on this at the last minute, and it's been a great addition. We don't often use the 23 minute cycle (we use the standard/more efficient/slower cycle most of the time), but it's awesome to have when you need it.

* Sub-Zero 42" french door refrigerator - we've been really happy with this

* Modernaire PSL-040 ventilation liner (built in hood) with external Abbaka blower + in line silencer. There's a whole bunch of threads on vent hoods on this site with tons of great information, we went this route in order to have a high exhaust unit but minimize noise by having the blower mounted to the roof.

Incidentally, we also did two bars (one in living room, one in basement), and did a mix of True 15" ice maker, True 24" beverage center, True 24" dual-zone wine referigerator, and True 24" freezer (all undercounter), and we've been generally happy with them. They perform/look great. I think I have separate posts on this somewhere.

Hope this helps, happy to answer other questions, and good luck with your remodel!

Joe

Joe, this is immensely helpful; thank you!!!! One question: I am still learning all of the warming drawer capabilities. Would some say that if you have the Miele steam oven, you don’t necessarily need a warming drawer? That may sound like such a novice question, as the warming drawer and steam oven are so new to me.

@joseph - nice review and pics of ur appliances I also have a miele cso XL (xxl was not yet announced), speed and CO. I use the oven capabilites of the speed oven almost everyday to not heat up my larger oven. As far as the microwave being cumbersome one suggestion is to change your start screen to the operating modes screen I have done this for all my ovens It will take one layer off getting to the microwave (and other oven) functions. You then select back to get to the main screen if needed. I am not a big microwave user and 99% of the time get by using the minute button and stopping it if I dont need the entire interval.

Thanks Kim! I'll have to check that out. That could definitely make the experience a lot better, and I can totally see how others would utilize the convection capabilities more than I would. And I do like that I have four different heating appliances for Thanksgiving :-).

@thekeller4 - the appliances are very different and "need" is a strong word for either of them! Personally, if I had to pick, I would take the steam oven over the warming drawer because it adds a more unique capability, but I like having both of them. If you solely were focused on oven / re-heating capability, then I would agree that having a CO and a CSO would be the best option and you could use the CSO (or CO) for re-heating and/or warming dishes.

Where there warming drawer shines IMO is the versatility to 1) store/keep coffee cups warm in the morning; 2) store/keep dinner plates warm before serving; 3) re-heat and/or keep warm food before serving it. #3 is something that can be done with other ovens (CSO, CO), #1 and #2 are things I'd really only use a warming drawer for, and why having it at "counter height" is preferable.

I am pretty sure if you Google warming drawers or search this forum, you'll find lots of thoughts on them. I didn't have this in my remodel plans but I am glad that we added it. Is it life changing? No. Could we live without it? For sure. But it's a nice capability for sure if you have the space/budget to include it. If I only had room for one I think the CSO is more useful/functional for sure.

Joe

Thank you all again for your input! I'm really excited about the Miele XXL steam oven and pretty sure we will be ordering it. As for the 30" Miele convection oven below it, we have two options. One of the options has a "moisture plus" setting. It is $1,000 more and I'm trying to figure out if it is worth it. Our sales rep says it may not be necessary being that we have the steam oven right above it. I'm curious about which 30" standard Miele oven you all went with and would greatly appreciate your input!

The CSO is probably our most frequently used oven, and we use the steam options all the time. Incidentally, very happy we opted for the plumbed version. But we also use our other two ovens on occasion, and I don't miss the fact that they don't have moisture control. So, I probably would use those extra $1000 for some other purpose.

I have the moisture plus I dont think it is needed with a CSO I have used it for some bread finctions and it does ok but not like the CSO I think u might have to get it if u want a rottisserie but not sure. If I was doing it over I would not spend the $$$.

@M and @Kim G, thank you both! You saved me so much extra brain power :). Ok, decided! Thank you again!

Agree with the other posters. I have the moisture plus option and use it very occasionally when making veggies, but I don't think it's really worth it if you are looking to save $1000. The CSO is much better. I also agree that having the plumbed option is great as well.

BTW, Kim, thanks again for the tip on the menus - it's definitely nicer starting the appliances with the "Operating Modes" as opposed to the "Main Menu". Wasn't aware you could do that and glad I did!

@thekeller4 - I happen to have an extra trim kit in my garage for the CSO (long story, but we misplaced the original and then found it) that converts the 24" XXL oven into a 30" layout. Miele 6768 is the specific item, I believe. https://www.mieleusa.com/e/trim-kit-for-30-niche-eba-6768-10706070-p. Honestly at some point likely to toss it since it's just taking up space and it's a bit of a niche product, but if you (or anyone else) is interested in it, you can message me on Houzz (I just opened it up to anyone) and I can make arrangements to send it to you. New in box.

(Here is how you open up messages, in case you are a Houzz novice like myself. https://www.houzz.com/discussions/4808218/help-how-to-send-private-message-to-others )

thanks,

Joe

Glad that is working for you Joe!

@thekeller4: not sure if you want all Miele Appliances, but they have this promotion going on for 2022. Up to $1,800 in savings on a Miele appliance package.

We did everything Miele (including, Induction cook top, fridge, freezer, hood and dishwasher) and haven't had one issue with any of them. We also liked the Miele fridge and freezer much better than the Sub Zero.

@Michael Mangini, thank you so much for this info! I am still researching all of our options, but am considering all brands. I was leaning toward the 30" built in Subzero Fridge/Freezer columns, but am now curious what you prefer about the Miele, as I do feel I can't go wrong with Miele. What do you love about your Miele Fridge/Freezer vs. Subzero? Thanks for your input!

@Joseph Fitzgerald, thank you! I just messaged you :).

I think you should go look at the fridge in the person, when that is an option. I looked at the Miele columns, and they just didn't seem to be the best fit for how our family uses a refrigerator. A lot of the little details were just a bit off. That's not to say that it's a bad fridge, but the SubZero was clearly a much better option for us. I can absolutely believe that this would be the other way round for some households though.

It's enough money, that I would want to make sure I get the best possible match for my needs.

I love Miele dishwashers and their various types of ovens. I am not quite convinced about their stoves, and the hood was rather lackluster when I looked at it in the Miele Center. By the appliance from the brand that does it best. Mixing brands is often the best choice.

thekeller4: First I should clarify that we wanted a “Panel Ready”, side-by-side design that aesthetically would correctly match our cabinet design and blend in and not the classic stainless door presentation making the fridge a focal point in the kitchen. That said, the Sub Zero design requires a separate horizontal panel above the doors (a design classic for the stainless steel models with the grill vents) that you will have to "hide" in some fashion or have a special horizontal cabinet panel made. This panel likely doesn't line-up with anything else in a cabinet design.

With the Miele panel ready design, we have a clean, consistent cabinet design throughout the kitchen that completely aligns and matches our cabinets. We wanted to minimize the giant fridge look in our kitchen. (See attached kitchen cabinet pictures for reference) This may not be what everyone wants but was important design element for us.

We also liked the following Miele design elements very much:

• Miele’s interior lighting system is much nicer lighting than Sub-Zero. LED lighting lined along the sides of the refrigerator vs. recessed in the back. Nice and bright no matter how loaded the shelves are.
• More installation options. They offer freezer columns in either 18 or 24 inch widths as well as refrigeration columns available in 18, 24 and 30 inch widths
• Their drop and Lock shelving system, is very easy to adjust and remove.
• The Stability-Hinges used on the doors. The doors with cabinet panels attached are very heavy. These provide a solid, supportive and smooth movement. (see attached picture)
• Miele’s Remote Vision Option (This allows their refrigerator unit to be linked by wi-fi directly to Miele’s service center and can report issues automatically.)

I hope this helps in some way.

Michael,

First, your kitchen is beautiful! It is clear that you and your wife put a lot of thought into your appliances, as well as the functionality of your kitchen. I so appreciate your input.

I was not aware of the Stability-Hinges or Miele's Remote Vision Option; that alone, is a very interesting and unique feature.

I think @M, is correct, in that I need to revisit the appliance center and have another look at all of these options.

I will note this here, in case you or any of my now extremely helpful "Houzz Friends" in this thread have input...Our initial thought was to do two 30" columns (fridge/freezer). We do not necessarily need a 30" for freezer space, but I liked the symmetrical look of the two side by side.

However, after putting more thought into this, I'm realizing I don't truly need that much freezer space, but would actually benefit from extra fridge space.

My current thought is to go with a 36" fridge/freezer combo (not sure if this is an option with Miele, but will have to investigate that), which provides 13.3 cu ft of fridge space and 6.4 ft of freezer space, and then add on refrigeration drawers in the island, which gives 5.3 more cu ft of refrigeration space (total of 18.6 cu ft of refrigeration space).

I'm liking this idea so far in that the fridge/freezer structure would still have a "symmetrical look" and with refrigeration drawers in the island, I would have easy access to produce that I would be transferring to the island countertop for chopping (which I do a lot of).

I apologize for changing the topic of this thread, but wanted to present this thought here, as you all have had such wonderful advice, and I so appreciate your input.

So far I am liking this idea, my only concern is whether or not the 36" is going to be difficult to open.

@Michael, I really like your addition of the beverage cooler. Have you found that to be a good choice? I'm thinking that would be helpful with children and guests, so they don't always have to go to the fridge for beverages.

Thank you again for any insight you may have!

~Michelle

thekeller4: Our design purpose of that lower cabinet with the beverage fridge and counter was to make it a beverage area. The Keurig machine is plumed with filtered water (so no one is running over to the sink to refill it). If you notice, there is milk in that beverage fridge along with hard cider, soft drinks and wine laying on the upper racks. The lower cabinet houses a wide variety of Keurig beverage pods on a pull-out drawer. Also, in that cabinet is a .9 Cubic Foot Microwave for heating/reheating, Popcorn etc. The two cabinets above hold our everyday dishes on the left side and the drinking glasses, wine glasses and mugs on the right side.

This is one of the best things we did. When we have friends and/or relatives at our home, they enjoy being able to peruse the available beverages (hot and cold) and don't feel self-conscious about looking over what is available because they aren't in our fridge. We let everyone know to "help yourself" throughout their visit and everyone does.

@Michael Mangini, I love this idea! We love to host and this is a great way to make everyone feel comfortable and "at home". Thank you for sharing. I'm hoping we will be able to incorporate this concept. Have a wonderful day!

@Michael Mangini, what is the length of your beverage area countertop? Also, what beverage fridge did you go with? Thanks!

thekeller4: Sorry for the delayed response. Here are the "rounded-up" dimensions since this is a custom-built cabinet for this space:

D=19" (excluding the knobs)

W=52"

H=36"

Since this cabinet size requires a shallow depth beverage fridge, we chose the Perlick brand which is well know in the commercial market. Here is the link: https://www.perlick.com/hh24bs-4.html?locale=en

What did you decide on for the cook-top, Gas or Induction? We love the Induction and wouldn't go back to gas.

On the refrigerator I love my 36" all fridge Miele! I also have a 24" thermador freezer. They are not side by side so the size differnce is fine. Even if they were side by side or opposite ends of a wall I think it is OK if they aren't the same width. These are two different brands but the Miele/Thermador and I think it is Gaggenau are all the same box but are fitted out with diffently so once panelled they look the same on the outside (like a cabient). I went with the Thermador freezer as my family really wanted ice/water thry the door which Miele didn't offer in a 24" with ice/water thru the door and I think 18" uselessly skinny.

I also have refrigerator drawers and a bar fridge in the living room so I am blessed with plenty of refrigeration. In this kitchen I reused the refrigerated drawers that I had added to the old kitchen which had a cabient depth (not built in but shallower than standard fridges) french door fridge/freezer . . It was small for our family who cooks all our meals. I added the refrigerator drawers right under the counter where I prepped food. Like your thoughts this was for produce in the top drawer and orange juice and some other things in the bottom. It worked great.

In this kitchen I have the 36" all fridge left of the cooktop and across from the island where I prep so produce goes here. I kept the drawers and put them in my pantry (which is an open "walk thru" behind the cooktop/fridge wall not a closed closet space). Now I use them differnetly -- they store extra produce (seconds of things I have in the main fridge -- more carrots etc), extra cold cuts and cheeses, yogurt, back up juice, apples and if things get crowded with guests or the holidays whatever needs a space. If i didn't already own the drawers and had a space they worked I wouldn't have added them given the 36" fridge. But since I had them I re-used themand I like having the space.

IF you go with a smaller fridge I think the drawers in your prep area for produce is a great idea. Just be sure you have room for both that and a drawers to hold you prep tools -- small stuff in an top drawer and things like mixing bowls, salad spinner, larger glass measuring cups, salad bowl, colander etc below.

@kfpwvt, thank you for your input! This is really helpful. I visited the appliance store again today and am thinking I will go with the 36" Subzero Fridge/Freezer combo, and 24" or 27" refrigeration drawers (hoping to fit 27", but not sure I can make that work with sink, dishwasher, and garbage pull out in the island).

I 100% agree with having a knife/other utensil drawer near the refrigeration drawers. Do you think one would fit directly above the drawers? Also, what size are your refrigeration drawers?

If I don't have leftover space for mixing bowls, measuring cups, etc. in the island, I think I am ok with having that stored in cabinetry 4 feet behind the island (the cabinetry is a long wall parallel to the island, that will also house the range).

I should note we are also hoping to have a butler pantry hall directly behind the "range/cabinetry wall" and will house a standard LG fridge/freezer there.

It sounds like your goals and set up were similar to what I have in mind. Do you think my logic at this point makes sense? Anything I am overlooking?

I am SO glad I was made aware of refrigeration drawers, as these make a lot of sense for me. Most of my time in the kitchen is spent chopping vegetables, multiple times a day.

Thanks so much for your help!!

~Michelle

@Michael Mangini, thank you so much for your beverage counter dimensions. We currently have a "stand alone serving counter" parallel to our kitchen island, in our plans, and after reading your description of how your beverage station is used, I was excited to compare your dimensions to what we have in our current sketches, to see if we might be able to use this counter in a similar way. It looks like your counter is just 4 inches longer, so if we tweak ours a bit, we can likely add in a beverage cooler, as well as a pull out drawer for cups/glasses.

We are hoping to have a coffee bar in a "butler hallway" (this is all pending house bids, so who knows what we may need to scale down), so I likely won't do a coffee station as part of the beverage counter, but can always put out a coffee carafe, or something like that, when guests come over.

Do you have ice in your beverage space, or do guests just go to your freezer?

thekeller4: We don't have any ice availability here. All beverages in the beverage fridge are kept very cold, rarely does anyone ask for ice. (See attached temperature setting in the picture)

We have ice in the Miele Freezer column fed by a plumbed line off the Everpure filter feeding the coffee maker, ice maker, steam oven and main oven to improve taste.

We intentionally decided against having ice in our freezer drawers. Ice makers take up a big amount of valuable space, and they are always the first part to break. Through-the-door icemakers are even worse in this regard.

Fortunately, our family doesn't use large amounts of ice anyway. So, I just make ice with a countertop ice maker every few weeks and fill a small storage container in the freezer. As a nice side benefit, the countertop models usually make clear ice, whereas built-in ice makers don't do that. And if I ever run out, a countertop model is surprisingly fast at making more ice. So, I can make some on demand.

I am sure this is a trade-off that wouldn't work for every other family. But just an idea to consider.

@Michael Mangini, I forgot to answer your question about the gas vs. induction decision. We're now looking at doing a full gas range vs. the rangetop. I initially thought we should do a rangetop if the Miele steam oven was going to be in the same sightline because the ranges we prefer have very different looks from the Miele line. We have now found a location just around the corner for the Miele steam, so the range will work being that there won't be a drastic mix of styles in the same "room".

I am very intrigued by induction and am pretty confident I would actually love it, but I really like the look of ranges, and know I won't dislike gas as that's what I have always cooked with.

On the other hand, I've heard so many positive things about induction, that I should be researching it more, but after all of my steam oven, fridge, freezer research, I'm not sure I have it in me to research something else entirely new to me (induction).

I hope I don't regret this later, but that is my current line of thinking :).

@M, what countertop ice maker do you own? I think this idea may work really well for us being that we are not huge ice consumers.

When you fill your small storage container in the freezer, do your cubes end up freezing together, causing you to have to break them apart?

They are all pretty comparable. It's just your normal small household appliance. I bought the first thing I could find on Amazon that looked as if it would do the job: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZV318K3 Been happy with it, and it's going strong. But at that price, if it dies in a few years, that's OK.

It's a decent size. Big enough to make enough ice in one batch, so that I can leave it unattended for a while. But compact enough, that I can easily pull it out of storage when I need it.

You cannot fit a drawer for knives/tools above refrigerator drawers unless you do a single drawer instead of a stack of two (I know someone makes a single maybe Fisher Paykel?). The stacks fill the whole space to the counter.

The drawers I have are 30" which is a good size. These were purchased to fit a space as in the old kitchen I removed a cabient and replaced with these. My wine bar has wine up top and 2 drawers below -- 30" also.

For me I'd rather have a stack of storage drawers for my prep tools in the island and pivot around to the wall of cabients 4 ft behind for the veggies if the other refrigeration is there (4 feet is a wide aisle so it works might need a pivot and step). If the main fridge is farther than a pivot and step then I'd consider the fridge drawers and tools behind. You'll still be walking to the fridge for stuff like mayonaise, mustard, salad dressing etc that is usually on the fridge door shelves unless you also put those in the drawer. I don't think the drawer is as good for these jars as from the top of the jars harder to see what they area. Although OK for a few frequent use and easy to ID jars). That is my personal preference but every time you want another measuring spoon, whisk, colander, mixing bowl, etc I like that right there. Althought I do pivot and step for my my knives and spices which are left of the cooktop behind my prep area.. Also think about where those things will live vs where the dishwasher is if you will use the dishwasher for them. Where is your main refrigerator? I feel like you might just go bigger there if it is well located and keep the island drawers for tools. Just my opinion from the bit I know from your posts.

You might consider starting a new post and sharing your floor plan and asking for advice. Do you have a kitchen designer or architect you are working with? Or is this initial thoughts before you start that?

I'd suggest giving induction a thought. Although some people are wedded to the idea of the commercial looking range. Personally I am not really sure why as I never liked the looks but they were better than standard electric -- but with induction I like the look (sleeker, modern, minimalistic -- a style preferene) and the function (the way it cooks and cleans up and cleaner air, cooler doesnt throw all that heat into the room and safer less risk of burns).

thekeller4: As stated by kfpwvt "I'd suggest giving induction a thought. Although some people are wedded to the idea of the commercial looking range. Personally I am not really sure why as I never liked the looks but they were better than standard electric -- but with induction I like the look (sleeker, modern, minimalistic -- a style preferene) and the function (the way it cooks and cleans up and cleaner air, cooler doesnt throw all that heat into the room and safer less risk of burns)." This is great advice and don't underestimate the safety value including when you want to teach children to cook or help in the kitchen.

I would add heating of pans is actually faster and conversely rapid reduction of heat is just as fast. Induction is faster than gas because there aren't cast iron stands to hold the pans above the gas flame which don't cool down quickly.

Also, the Miele Induction cooktop we have has a setting to brides two cooking elements in support of a large double burner cast iron griddle or cast iron double burner grill. We use both successfully all the time.

You should know that our Miele exhaust hood connects to the Induction cooktop via Bluetooth and therefore the activity on the cooktop automatically activates the fan and lights and will vary the fan speed based upon cooking temperature. It evens allows the fan to run after cooking is complete and automatically shuts it off later to facilitate the removal of remaining cooking fumes.

Here are two vides that may help you quickly understand both technologies and their use:

Yale Appliance Induction vs. Gas

Miele Induction vs. Gas

I have the same/similar Miele hood/induction combo as Michael. Great for me with the fan coming on automatically as I have some family members that don't like fan noise and tend to not turn it on (don't bother unless really smoky frying or boiling water) -- this way it just comes on and stays on a few minutes after for each use. Which is much better for the kitchen.

One feature I love on the induction cooktop is that i can set a timer on each burner. This isn't just a sound (it can do that too) but it can set that burner to turn off after xx minutes. I use this all the time for stuff like rice -- boils the water in less that a min add rice set timer and the burner turns itself off when done. I also use it for things like leaving a pot of soup simmering for an hour -- set the timer and it turns off when done. Or turn to keep warm when soemthing is done but set a timer so it turns all the way off after a while. Although I am the only one in the family that knows how to use the timers (but I am the main cook). Bridge feature that Michael mentioned is good -- and I use it for larger oval dutch ovens too not just griddles.

I was surprised in a vacation rental after having my induction how much I didn't like going back to gas. The gas was slower to boil and I melted a handle with the heat up the side of the pan (cheap pan I think) forgot I had to worry about how high the gas flames were going and got a burn mark on a wooden spoon. So many more things to be careful about! I had to pull the rice pot off for a min to calm the boil before simmering as it didn't cool as quick when I went from hi to simmer. I missed my induction.

@Michael Mangini, @kfpwvt, thank you once again for your very helpful insight. I do like what induction has to offer and will definitely look into it further by starting with the videos Michael passed along.

Just when I thought I was done with Miele steam oven questions, I have yet another one and would love advice from those of you in this string who own one and use it regularly (if I remember correctly, it's the two of you, as well as @Joseph Fitzgerald). Here's my question:

As we are working on our build sketches, it is appearing like one of the best locations for the steam oven is around the corner from the main kitchen. In an attempt to try to give you a visual, we have an 11ft. long island, and directly behind it, an 11ft long wall with the stove and cabinetry. One thought is to put the steam oven around the corner from the 11ft wall in a "butler hallway".

THE BIG QUESTION: Being that the Miele steam oven would be used very frequently, will it be annoying to go around the corner to use it? Would this bother you personally? Are you checking it regularly, and is it helpful to have it in sight? I'm thinking about the "menu function" I remember hearing about that allows you to put an item in (let's say rice), and then you are given a direction to put the next item in, etc. With this in mind, it seems you would want it more in view? Or am I overthinking this??

I owe you all a HUGE THANKS for all of the input you've already provided, and thank you again for any insight you have in regard to this :).

Would you be OK with placing your range into that location? If so, the CSO would be fine there too. But if you think it's awkward to walk there while cooking, then maybe you need a better location.

It depends a little on the meal we are preparing, but the CSO is used very frequently and in much the same way that our range is being used.

@M, The range definitely needs to stay in the main kitchen, so my gut is telling me it would be best to also try to find a way to have the CSO in the main kitchen. Is that what you are thinking? It sounds like you are the perfect person to ask this question: Is your range a different brand from your CSO? If so, does it bother you that the looks are different? This has been my other dilemma and one of the reasons I keep going back-and-forth about a range versus a range top. My feeling has been that I need to do a range top if the CSO is in the same area. But, maybe it’s not a big deal? I would love to hear what your set up is and in turn what your thoughts are.

If possible, can you post a floor plan of your kitchen and/or any schematics you have, even if they are just hand drawn sketches? I did that when I was in this phase of the project, and got immensely helpful advice from others on layout strategy.

Definitely post and get advice on your floor plan (in a new thread and maybe refernece it here so we see it as I don't read the main forums like I did when planning when it was the old GardenWeb). At least in the old days

Personally I would hate my combi steam around a corner. It is my most used appliance in the kitchen. It gets uses multiple times everyday by everyone in the house. Around the corner for everything would not be good. To me a design flaw. I can detail more of how we use ours and why I think around the corner would not work for us if you need more information.

I do have experience with an appliance out of the main kitchen -- I have a speed oven in the pantry that we mostly use as microwave and occssionally to bake at the holidays when the other ovens are full (again my pantry is not a closed room but a walk thru area behind the frige/cooktop/oven wall). It works there for what it is used for but I would not be happy with my CSO there. I have some countertop small applainces in the pantry too -- I'm OK with going there to make a cup of coffee or blend or juice or toast something. But I wouldnt want to go there for my CSO.

I'd skip the refirgerator drawers and find a way to put the combi in the main kitchen. Or put the refrigerator drawers around the corner for overflow and snacks, beverages not produce. Or skip the CSO if it cannot fit in the main work area. Remember to leave drawer space for you storage too and not fill it all with appliances.

Thank you @kfpwvt and @Joseph Fitzgerald. We do have initial CAD drawings, so I will post those soon.

@kfpwvt, I think I can definitely skip the refrigerator drawers and instead go with a 36" column fridge.

I would love to be able to at least incorporate a knife drawer in the island, so I will see if that can be done (11ft island with sink, dishwasher, and pull out garbage, so I'm not sure what will be left for drawers with spacing and undetermined sink size).

The one appliance I am settled on and most excited about is this particular CSO, so I will have to find a way to incorporate it into the main kitchen (and live with mixing brands/styles a bit, depending on what we choose: range, rangetop, induction.

@kfpwt, do you use "messenger" on Houzz? I could private message you, as I don't want to keep switching topics within this thread.

36" column fridge is a good choice (what I have!).

My island is 12' long with seating to one end so the prep work area is 8.5 ft. I have DW, sink, trash, stack of drawers for prep tools. I have my knives in a top drawer left of my cooktop which is just across from the island prep area. It works great for me. Spices arethe drawer under the knives -- then pots/pans (and pots/pans under and to the other side of the cooktop too).

You can message me.

I'm a firm believer in buying appliances from the manufacturer that is best for this particular type of appliance. That's why we have CSO and SpeedOven from Miele, but the gas range is Bluestar. No problem with mixing brands. Looks great together.

I decided to put a black oven door on the range, and it otherwise has stainless elements. This matches some of the design elements in the Miele appliances. But honestly, even if we didn't do that, nobody would care.

Buying all the appliances from the same brand is usually just an indication that this kitchen was put in by the builder without giving it much thought. Custom built kitchens aren't beholden to the same constraints

thekeller4: with respect to your question relative to the location of the CSO, I believe an oven of any type, no matter how intelligent, will require the user to be able to view the actual status of the items being prepared in it to ensure a good outcome. This would be regardless of it's use of steam or convection cooking (or both). On the other hand, fridge/freezer draws do not require any visual access on a regular basis during it's use. Therefore they could be relocated to a more remote area if really needed or eliminated by just getting a larger fridge itself.

@kfpwvt, would you mind messaging me a picture of your island? I tried to find where to private message you, but was not able to find the link, so hoping you see the post here :).

Hello again! Quick Question: For those of you with the Miele CSO, would you say it functions as a gas oven (guessing it does, due to the steam)? We are leaning toward moving forward with a gas range and are trying to decide whether or not to do Dual Fuel. I'm also trying to decide whether or not to pair the Miele XXL CSO with the Miele 30" standard oven (not the moisture control version). One scenario would be Miele CSO with stacked Miele 30" and then all gas range (so resulting in both gas and electric ovens for different purposes) or doing the Miele XXL CSO alone with a dual fuel range. I'm wondering if the first scenario is oven overkill, but don't want to regret just one small oven for "gas oven" purposes. Hopefully this makes sense. I would love your thoughts!

I find dual fuel to be mostly a marketing gimmick and not really relevant in practical use. I cook and bake in both gas and electric ovens, and it is easy to adjust for both. Gas is naturally drier, as the oven has to have a vent. But that can easily be compensated for by putting the food into an enclosed container (e.g. a Dutch oven). Electric ovens are naturally higher humidity, but not really enough to make a big difference.

On the other hand, the CSO has very precise control for humidity over a very large range; and it also has very precise temperature control, which is great for things like sous-vide cooking, yeast proofing, yoghurt making, ...

Also, the CSO has a stainless steel interior, so it doesn't suffer from the issues with flaking glass bits that lots of other electric ovens seem to experience, no matter the manufacturer.

I personally love our combination of the best-in-class Bluestar gas range, and the best-in-class Miele CSO. These two appliances are very different and thus complement each other perfectly.

thekeller4: Even though we have a full-size Miele wall oven we regularly use our CSO as the "regular oven" when we are only cooking for my wife and I. We have found it more than capable to make almost anything we would cook in the main oven. In fact as "M" mentioned the accuracy of temperature is excellent as is moisture control. My wife is a huge baker of cookies, cakes, pies and bread.

Here is a link to a gas stove analysis from a local high-end appliance dealer here in greater Boston where I am. Maybe this will be helpful for you: Best BlueStar Professional Ranges for 2021 (Reviews / Ratings) (yaleappliance.com)

You may want to review the additional links at the bottom of the link page I included above as there is much more information available (e.g., dual fuel ranges) etc.)

@M and @Michael Mangini, Thank you both. Constant decisions, but I’m learning so much! @M, I was toying between a Blue Star and Wolf and landed on the Wolf because of its simmering capabilities. I also feel like the grates are easier to clean. But, being that you love your Bluestar so much, wondering how you feel about simmering. Is it a little tougher, due to the direct heat and higher BTUs?

Also, if we do a Wolf the all gas range only allows for 15,000 BTUs as the highest, but electric is 20,000 BTUs as the highest. Not sure why this is, but seems I can’t get the best of both worlds (high BTUs and gas ovens). So, I’m kind of stumped!

@Joseph Fitzgerald while researching Miele CSO I came upon this post and your photos of your kitchen. I like your countertops. Could you please tell me what they are? Much appreciated!

@thekeller4 I have a Bluestar range and love it. The simmer burner works great. I was also worried it would be too powerful for a true simmer but that has not been the case. And the other burners are incredible. I do a lot of wok cooking and being able to sit my wok down in the burner is a game changer. It is a breeze to clean. Everything drops below to a drawer that I line with foil. Easy.

Unrelated, but I'm 4 years in and I'm still in love with my XXL Miele Combi Steam and my Miele dishwasher. If anyone is on the fence about a combi-steam, just do it!

@Mare M hey there - I believe they are Pental Avenza countertops. https://pentalquartz.com/products/avenza/

Hope that helps and good luck with your project!

Joe