Continued:

Do the following options offer anything that makes them more positive than options A, B, C?

Option D

Option A - but switch the fridge and wall ovens! Then scootch the cooktop closer to the ovens to maximize prep space.

I prefer A or B (or other alternatives the layout gurus come up with!). C has little prep space between range and sink. D doesn't have much landing room around the range. I'm not seeing advantages to D or E over B.

I've never had wall ovens, so not sure I can comment on whether it's worth giving up the prep space.

I'm starting to really like B, you can prep at the window! I don't think the island is a barrier. I would probably move the range closer to the window if you have room to get a bit more landing space on the left of the range. I don't think the fridge is too far from the range, NKBA recommends 4-9' between work centers.

I gave up prep space for a wall oven, and would never go back- I love a wall oven, I HATE bending down for those units. Place the oven at a good height for you, rather than the standard placement (which I find too low as a short person!). Keep in mind with a cooktop you can use this as prepspace in many ways-Mine always had groceries brough in and placed on it, and lots of things set on it while I was mixing/doing other things that did not require heat :)

You will not prep on the long run of counter in C. You will end up prepping in the 24" right over the DW. D and E don't add anything.

In B, it looks like you will have to carry everything from the DW to someplace else.

I think I am limited to 30-31.5" next to the dishwasher if the sink stays by the window so that I have enough room for a table and chairs???? I have 139" if I calculated correctly between island overhang and a 42" wide table (133" if I keep my 48 " wide one).

emilyam819: That space constraint means a much smaller fridge if I would switch the wall oven cab and fridge in Option A. I would rather have the fridge where you suggest based on what I have learned here, but I think I have only 30-31.5 inches available.

Renee Texas: Any problems with scratches on your cook-top? If I have the wall oven cab, I would put a higher drawer under the wall oven which would make the oven higher. I think this would have the vertical storage above the microwave at an acceptable height since i would not put in a built-in microwave. Do you have a photo and/or dimensions?

I like the idea of prep space in front of the window, but it means no
place for a wall oven/microwave. While I have cooked in this kitchen for
35 years with a stove, I struggle to weigh what is most positive: large
perimeter prep space in front of a window versus wall oven/cook-top and
the convenient storage in those cabinets. Is it awful to have the only
prep space larger than 24" on the island

It seems like you have plenty of space for the table. The fridge doesn't have to line up with the island, so the island wouldn't change. Are you keeping the oval table?

emilyam819: I have a 48 inch round that can expand to an oval that sits 6...it will be a temporary keep. My plan is to have a split pedestal table made than can expand to sit 10-12 when needed. The new table can be 42" wide if I need to do that for space.

palimpsest: you are right ,and your point is definitely worth considering. It is hard for me to imagine working in a space based on what is on paper. There will not be many uppers in plan B or C, just an 18" one above the dishwasher and a corner easy-reach. Most of the storage will be drawer storage in the island and under the window area.

I use my glass cooktop as described above (for mail, groceries, prep) and have had no scratches or other damage in 15+ years.

Based on how much room you have I'd do the part by the table with 24" deep pantry cabinets. Or even just deeper base units. Use roll outs and drawers, this way you can store bigger things like crock pots and such. Make the base of the hutch area 24" deep and the uppers 15" deep. Then you have a spot to set out food buffet style, or coffee dessert area, etc.

I was afraid that 24 inch deep cabs would make the dining area too tight for clearance around the table. I have a 15 inch deep hutch now; I may need to mock 24 inches with boxes to see if it works.

You don't show the measurements for that portion of the wall but I'm guessing the hutch and 2 pantries come to about 152". So you could turn the table the other way. But I'm totally guessing.

The dining portion in the layouts shown would be 11.5 feet (where built-in hutch is) by 11' 3"

You could also do a banquette on that wall where the hutch is.

I would make that island a little longer, like 6'. That will give you more prep space.

Ammette: I considered a banquette there because I really like the look of them, but fear giving up the storage space.

wysel: I posted another request for advice on the dimensions needed to maneuver around a 42" or 48" table and chairs. If I could extend the window wall cabinets to 11 feet, I could have some other layout options on the window wall. Having a 60 inch island would be awesome!

Best trade-off: 48 inch aisles around kitchen island and 54 inch island or 42 inch aisles and 60 inch island???????

Personally I like my sink centered on the window. Is your sink currently in that position?

Can you rotate the island 90 degrees? Does that help?

How often do you entertain and is there a lot of movement when your guests are seated at the table? I think that will help you decide on the aisle. I have a tri-level with similar dimensions and I also took down the walls though I had 24' to work with. My French doors are on the wall perpendicular to where yours are. I decided to steal space from the DR to have the kitchen I wanted, and though I need a large table for entertaining, it's not on a daily basis. Those of us that have small spaces have to make concessions and though I'd love a large spacious DR, I don't need it daily. I'm currently looking for a 36" wide extendable table. We only use our dining table when we entertain. My dining space has 3' on the wall side and 4' on the island side; 10' from wall to island. We love sitting at our island and that is where we eat our meals. I was wondering about your living room configuration and if you can scoot the table toward the that space? Do you have a family room too or is this your only entertaining space? Also, where do enter from garage?

bbtrix: You make excellent points about space and only needing a large table occasionally when entertaining. Most of the time it is just us, and I think we will also eat breakfast and lunch at the island instead of the table. The extended length can definitely go into the living are once the wall is removed. Right now seating 8 is my tight limit on dining space. I host (at a minimum) Christmas and Thanksgiving during cold months, and many pool parties in the summer months when eating space splits between inside and outside. My family room is in the exposed basement part of the split-level so people ALWAYS gather in the living-room and kitchen/dining space...it is why I am so excited to get rid of the wall.

We enter from the garage into a foyer which is at ground level, and steps lead to the living-room and then a straight-shot to the kitchen..

wysel: I have another post asking about necessary space requirement due to the suggestions of making the island 60 inches and your suggestion to rotate. My research gave conflicting/confusing recommendations.

Sophie Wheeller posted that 60 inches from edge to edge is needed if dining table seating and island seating back each other. I would have 66 with a 42 inch table and 60 with a 48 inch table so turning the island is doable. Benjesbride posted a really nice diagram showing the recommended distances: 36 inches to just edge by and 44 to walk by when someone is seated. That means a 60 inch island is just doable with a 42 inch table if I leave it as is.

What makes the most sense?

My sink is currently under the window, BUT DH is a messy-cleaner-upper: crud and water everywhere! He is so proud of what he calls his "power-scrubbing"...BIG SIGH! Moving the sink away from the window and just wiping a back-splash would eliminate one of my irritations, but I can live with the sink under the window.

Would you mind sketching out the living room, with windows and doors? Is that where you watch TV? To me it matters to know if it's a sitting room or must also contain AV equipment and lots of furniture. It's helpful at this stage to preliminarily know where your furniture will be in an open layout. It helps determine the traffic patterns and to know if it's wise to encroach on neighboring space.

bbtrix: I will post a rough sketch later tonight. My living room does not have a tv...just couch, loveseat, side tables and chairs. With the wall removed, I can basically leave the placement as is; but new furniture is in the budget so other configurations are a future possibility. I am actually excited about the new furniture placement possibilities with the wall removed!

This is a not to exact scale diagram of my split-level upper area.

bbtrix: Thank you so much for the visuals and expending the time that took! We are doing custom cabinets so I hope to maximize every inch in the space. I will try to play with the planner once I narrow down a few layout options; I have read about the difficulties some have using the software...fingers crossed.

Your showing 24 inch deep cabs all across the space....hmmmm!!!!! Annette H. also recommended that but I was worried about losing the floor space; however, uou got in my wish-list doing that AND employed the layout rule of ice-water-stone-fire. I used the 15 cabs for the built-in hutch area since the original designer did that BUT...duh... that was when we were keeping the wall between the kitchen/dining area and living-room. I am off to measure and trying to visualize losing 9 inches of floor space there.

First design you show: Is it really awful to have the island block direct access from the wall oven/microwave cabinet to the fridge?

That first one uses two 18" pantries with 60" counter between. I don't think the island creates a barrier for the oven and microwave, as it adds a drop zone, but I personally like my MW near the fridge. I think that one is easy to adapt to. A MW drawer below the oven would be nice. I initially had the cabinets in the dining area in as 15", but didn't see the value since you have space in the living area. That was the best benefits I had of taking down the walls. Your space is narrower than mine but much deeper.

Will you need to add a structural beam? I did, and also raised/sloped the ceiling since it would have to be repaired anyway. That made a huge difference in my space.

No beam is needed due to the trusses that were used but limited to 8 foot ceilings.

Do you have to use the two 15" deep pantries with the 66+" b/w them?

Would 48" be enough for the buffet? Or, do you already have it?

(I wouldn't do 24" deep pantries unless they're 18" or less in width -and- they're pullouts.)

Does the wall next to the refrigerator in Options A, B, & D have to stay? (You gain 4.5" if it doesn't.)

Are the French Doors in-swing or out-swing? If in-swing, would you consider changing the door to a sliding door? With in-swing, you are limited in what space you can use. Where I live, all exterior doors must be in-swing.

Buehl:

I do not have to do anything in the layout options and am open to any ideas that make the most of the space I have. We are gutting everything.

The original designer had pantries 24" wide by 15" deep so I just kept them that way and concentrated on the kitchen layout by stealing more space from the dining area than she originally allotted. In her design I had one 30 inch drawer stack and the rest (other than the trash pullout) were 12 inches...yuck and a major reason for pause! I discovered the help on this site only after family issues forced postponing the kitchen remodel.

I have two 24" wide x 12" reach-ins now, and they hold a lot of staples and appliances. If I kept her original idea but increased the reach-in width would it be too much visually? I think I would rather have more reach-in space than so much counter and wall cabs in the "hutch" area. She did show me a rendering of all reach-ins along the back wall, but it was just too much solid wall-to-ceiling door fronts for me visually. Right now, I have a hutch that will be moved to an in-the-making office/memorabilia room so DH can finally display his "treasures."

The wall does not need to stay, but one of my husband's biggest concerns is "Where are the light switches going to go?

Unfortunately, the French door swings in (only the half farthest from the back wall; the other half is stationary( and it leads to a deck. The only time that door is used is during the summer when we host family parties. It cannot be changed...we replaced a leaking sliding door 10 years ago. I like my brick and stucco exterior, but repair is expensive, costly, and it's almost impossible to find the craftsmen to do the work.

I think I answered everything. I do want to sincerely thank you for sharing your PPT design file!!!! As a retired teacher, it is a program I am comfortable using, and your templates were so easy to use and manipulating the design elements was a breeze.

Here's a variation on Option A.

Note that the sink wall cabinets/counters are deeper than standard - hopefully it will help reduce some of the splashing from your DH! Is your window counter-height or above the counter? In this case b/c your DH splashes a lot, I think an above counter window would be better - again, less splashing. Have you thought of asking your DH to clean the window? It might make him more aware of what he's doing and if he knows he's going to have to clean the window, maybe he'll be more careful! (I know you cannot change the window.)

I marked the light switches! :-)

The primary Prep Zone is in the island across from the cooktop and the refrigerator. A secondary Prep Zone is b/w the cleanup sink and the cooktop - but there isn't a lot of counter/workspace there. It might be enough if someone is giving you a hand.

The island is a barrier b/w the primary Prep Zone and the Oven & MW - but not b/w the secondary Prep Zone. There's plenty of landing space around them.

I went back & forth about putting in a Dish Hutch (w/the upper to the counter) - in the end I put one in, but I would think about it first. You might want to keep that counter open for a tertiary Prep Zone when you have family over or if you think you need deeper oven landing space.

I don't know if I'll have time to work on another option, but I will try.

Layout #1:

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Layout #1 - Zone & Traffic Map:

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Buehl:

Thank you for taking a "crack" at this; I have greatly admired your talent and ideas that you so generously share on this site.

I chuckled about "marking light switches" but, truly, never thought about putting them where you marked them; seeing them there makes PERFECT sense. It is a perfect example of something that happens here all the time...fresh eyes = fresh, new ideas. I think i am just so used to thinking about the two spaces as separate rooms instead of one large space.

I know my Plan A did not follow the ice-water-stone-fire rule. I have a few questions:

• Can you explain why you turned the island...is there a design rule that helps figure the direction for an island?
• Is it a terrible design issue to have an island the primary prep space instead of having one on the perimeter? It seems that it would be fine considering I now prep in a tiny 12'x12' space in the corner between my sink and stove...having a whole island to prep on seems spatially luxurious. It is hard for me to imagine working in a kitchen with an island after working in what I have had for 35 years.

I am intrigued by your hutch and pantry design. I am going to have to look for pictures that show me what you designed: the middle jutting out from the reach-in pantries. I wonder just how much I would use that counter when entertaining since it would be behind the table and chairs and not easily accessible...should I take the glass cabinets all the way to the counter there?

I thought about making the counter deeper on the window run but rejected it for the 3 inches of counter on the other run; eliminating the wall makes it feasible.

Your design confirms that I can expand the kitchen, have an island, and still have room to maneuver around a table and chairs...yay!.

I prefer the long end of the island facing the cooktop, especially with a prep sink. My mom's new kitchen has sink, cooktop, and island positioned similar to Option A, and I like to work on the side of the island facing the cooktop even though it's shorter.