ISO: Patio and landscaping in oddly angled backyard?

7 years ago

Hi,

I am a Kitchen Forum oldtimer, and now I am ready to tackle the outside of the house! Unfortunately, although I am good with a hammer, I have the gardening abilities of a mealworm and the design sense of a three-toed sloth!

I have an adorable, cute little house (IMHO), but it sits on a funny lot. My property is L-shaped, with the front of the house on one street, and the driveway/detached garage on the cross street, so I completely surround my neighbor’s corner house. (Evidently, the corner lot was originally quite large, but it was subdivided before building.) And to make things even worse, the cross street is not at a right angle, so I wind up with funny angles in various places. I am in the midwest, in Zone 5b.

Lord knows the front of the house needs plenty of help, too, but this summer I am hoping to landscape the rear yard only. (I have included some pictures of the front, but just for context.) What do I want? We use the yard for cooking out, eating, some casual entertainment and hanging out. I would like a small patio, and a place to put my barbecue grill, and some low-maintenance plantings. My neighbors and I need to replace the fencing as well. Everything else is negotiable!

Right now, there is a sad, old brick walkway that starts near the front door, continues between the houses, past the side door (which we use constantly), then into the backyard. It then angles across the backyard to the walk-in door of the detached garage. There are a couple of problems with this. First, it divides the backyard into two small triangles. Second, there is no earthly reason to go straight to this door. So my tentative plan is to redirect this path along the fenceline, towards the front corner of my garage, so as to leave a larger plot of ground in the middle of the yard.

I am not sure where would be best to put a patio. My house faces south-by-southeast, and the backyard and garage are north of the house. Accordingly, just behind the house is mostly in shade, except for summer evenings. Obviously, the shade is welcome in August, and unwelcome in May. Another potential patio location is at the end of the yard, just south of my garage. This location would mostly be in full sun, picking up some shade in late afternoon from trees. I am seriously considering providing a small patio in both locations, so we can pick whether we want shade or not at any given time, but not sure I want that expense! I am imagining a traditional grass lawn, but am open to suggestions.

Okay, let’s commence our tour! Here is the plat map. I am Parcel #2, on the right.

Here is the front of the house, just for context and orientation.

Now we are at the side of the house, looking towards the backyard.

Now, we are nearly in the backyard, but first we turn around and show the side of the house from the other direction.

Finally, we arrive at the backyard, and pan the camera around.

Now, we are out at the end of the walk, at the garage door, and turn around to look back into the yard.

It looks like I have hit a limit on this post. I will try to continue in another post.

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Yardvaark

7 years ago

last modified: 7 years ago

How many people would be using the patio for lounging/get-togethers/cookouts/dining, etc. ... typically and maximum?

If there's no reason to go directly to the garage door, where do people go? What is the traffic pattern?

Usually, and especially if there cooking out, people want the patio not too distant from access to the indoor kitchen. There are always things that need to be transported back and forth. This is more important if you don't have a functioning outdoor kitchen.

In a relatively small yard, it would not make sense to me to have 2 separate patios, trying to avail one's self of the correct light conditions. It would be better to make shade or a way to control light.

Is the patio a DIY project or to be hired out?

You didn't say anything about wanting privacy, and there are a lot of neighbors' windows aimed at your back yard. Normally, this is fairly high on the list for those who intend to use the back yard space for lounging and dining.

(PS ... nice photo spread.)

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Comments (13)

angie_diy
Original Author
7 years ago
Continuing the above, we are still out at the end of the walk, at the garage door, and turn around to look back into the yard.

And here are two overview shots from the small deck (“jump porch”) on the second floor:

Now, just for completeness, a view from the other street, towards the garage.

Thanks for reading this far, and I would love to know any thoughts anyone has! You guys are so kind-hearted and generous.

TIA!
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Here, I'm not offering a specific PLAN, but a general SCHEME for creating a view. You've already regained a large portion of the back yard by removing plants that were screening it from view. I can see by the additional photo that if one was sitting on the patio, the shrubs surrounding it would block off, or seriously disturb, his view. I suggest you follow the same program that led you to getting rid of the Leylands, and dispense with the patio shrubs. In addition to being unnecessary, their presence is detrimental. If the patio were a friendlier, prettier place, it stands a chance of being better used, and if not, could at least be made to look inviting and contribute to the view as seen from the porch or windows. I'm suggesting that you create a bed that surrounds the lawn. The bed should be large enough to look like it could support the trees that are in it. Their trunks would not be near or too close to the bed edge, but well into it. A simple "rule of thumb" type guide for dimensioning a bed containing trees is to imagine each tree planted in a 'flower pot' proportionate to the trees size. Using this method, here's a comparison between your existing bed set-up and the one I proposed. You can see how the flower pots that fit into the existing bed couldn't possibly support the trees that are in them, whereas in the larger bed their size looks believable. We can't see what you see when you look into the yards at each side, but could presume that you wish to have some degree of privacy and block any negative view that might exist. In addition, you'd want to temper the view of your own fence, making it less prominent. Even putting it into deep shade will help accomplish this. This suggests the use of some large shrubs, so the border bed must fit them as well. Other, smaller plants may be desired, too, as your plan gets worked out. After separating the lawn from a bed border, it begs the question of what the exposed ground surface will consist of if it is not lawn. It's probably already understood that bare dirt is not an option. Mulch alone is the lowest initial cost option but it has disadvantages. While it looks good when first installed, its appearance will deteriorate within a relatively short time, making annual replenishment necessary. That cost and labor will eventually become tiresome. Too, mulch is brown, dry, flat and lifeless. In my opinion, it can never measure up to a groundcover that is green, gives a cushioned appearance and by the nature of being alive, is self-healing. A groundcover that grows solid, beyond the initial installation, never needs mulching again! It would make more sense and seem more inviting if you created a spacious landing, which reflected/coordinated with the overall lawn shape, at the base of the lawn steps. Even if never physically used, it completes the view and makes it seem as if there is a reason that the steps and path are located where they are. If a garden part or other lawn even were held, having a landing would seem like a real invitation to enter the yard. Without the landing, it seems as if the steps and path go to nowhere and that the lawn would make just as much sense without them.
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angie_diy
Original Author
7 years ago
Thank you so much for your response, Yardvaark!

“How many people would be using the patio for lounging/get-togethers/cookouts/dining, etc. ... typically and maximum?”

Typically it would be just 4 of us, occasionally 6, and maximum would be 8. My patio table seats 4 or 5. For 6 to 8, I have to set up a temporary table.

“If there's no reason to go directly to the garage door, where do people go? What is the traffic pattern?”

Oh, dear, this is a case of my being so used to my situation that I didn’t think to explain it well! The usual traffic pattern is out the side door, down the path through the backyard, then to the cars on the driveway. We don’t keep the cars in the garage.

“Usually, and especially if they’re cooking out, people want the patio not too distant from access to the indoor kitchen. There are always things that need to be transported back and forth. This is more important if you don't have a functioning outdoor kitchen.”

Yes, this is certainly true. For the reasons you cite, my first I inclination would be to set up shop near the house. (That is currently where I have my barbecue grill, for that very reason, and, yes, I am constantly in and out of the house during grilling.) The only “saving grace” is that the yard is SO small that setting up shop on the far side is not untenable — it’s only another 30 feet or so — so I decided to put that option on the table. (And, you surmise correctly, I am not envisioning a functioning outdoor kitchen; the winters are too long here for that!)

“In a relatively small yard, it would not make sense to me to have 2 separate patios, trying to avail one's self of the correct light conditions. It would be better to make shade or a way to control light.”

Thanks for that. I am sure you are correct.

“Is the patio a DIY project or to be hired out?”

I am struggling with this question myself. In many regard$, I would prefer to DIY. My biggest concern in DIY is grading. Right now, we have a couple of low spots on that sad brick walkway that collect water and ice, and my neighbor has a gutter drain pipe that eventually must make its way through my yard, so the whole yard must be properly graded. I think I could handle the hardscaping part, but I worry about my lack of expertise in grading. I would plan to rent a bobcat or something of the like, and that would even be kind of fun, but I may punt and hire it out if I cannot convince myself I can do a good job. Sorry for the long, equivocal answer, but, as you can tell, I am struggling with this! I met with someone last year, but he and I both dropped the ball, as his availability was poor and I was not really sure what we wanted.

“You didn't say anything about wanting privacy, and there are a lot of neighbors' windows aimed at your back yard. Normally, this is fairly high on the list for those who intend to use the back yard space for lounging and dining.”

Yes, privacy is in very short supply in my neighborhood. I am afraid that is the price one pays to live in this delightful, walkable, 1920’s community! Believe it or not, the white house that looms over our backyard is NOT a source of loss of privacy. Those windows are either too high (in their bedroom) or frosted (in their bath), so that it has never been the case that those neighbors look out into our yard. It is more of a blank backdrop instead.

In the other direction, the yard of the corner house and our yard feel very “common,” but we are good friends and it feels okay. The street is just beyond their yard, as well, so there will never be a great deal of privacy. We used to have gray dogwood hedges (probably Cornus racemosa) along that fence, but they spun out of control and sent suckers everywhere, so we took them out (a multiyear project!). We are open to replacing them with a more appropriate planting. The one remaining shrub in that area is a French lilac, but that is “expendable.” Our neighbors put in a couple of redbud trees on their side that provide some visual shelter in the summer.

One question I have struggled with is whether to leave a small garden bed between the walkway and the fence, or to maximize yard space instead. I am assuming I will put a garden bed in there, but it is possible that I am just making that assumption because there is one there now.

“(PS ... nice photo spread.)”

Thank you!
Kim in PL (SoCal zone 10/Sunset 24)
7 years ago
Just as a reaction to your photos, it appears you have already chosen the sunny spot for your preferred patio location. And you have chosen a location near the house for the barbecue. Ergo: full patio in sun, bbq pad near house (not a full patio). Kind of wish we could see these same photos in a snowless season. :)
angie_diy thanked Kim in PL (SoCal zone 10/Sunset 24)
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Yardvaark
7 years ago
If cars not parked in garage, what is garage used for?

Even if you don't really NEED privacy, I think it would make a better looking, more comfortable space to have some plantings/structures that create a SENSE of privacy, meaning that there would be places neighbors could view your activities if they wanted to, but that it would be an effort for them to do so, so they likely wouldn't. There could be a corner, section or pieces of the yard that seemed private, but other places that were more open.

What kind of garden is the one between walk and fence? And you wish to continue with that activity?

Grading is important and in such a small space in which the surroundings are already built, there will be tight tolerances. It would be necessary to have a grading plan worked out at part of the construction plan. If you are an inexperienced bobcat operator, it will be likely that you will create much more damage to the grading operation (and maybe some other things!) than you will be likely to accomplish or fix. I have done this kind of thing, but I have had much more room to make the errors and time to fix them (as best I could!) And I had a lot of opportunity to observe highly skilled operators beforehand and learn some of their techniques. You will be surprised how tiny the yard will seem as soon as you try to maneuver a bobcat in it. I would advise you to table the idea of operating the machine and instead search for someone who already knows how to use it well. It would be money well spent. Or, maybe, after the grading plan is done, you'll discover that grading will be so minor that it can be done less expensively by hand, which is sometimes the case.

The space to the right of garage as you're looking from the house ... how is that used now?
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angie_diy
Original Author
7 years ago
Just as a reaction to your photos, it appears you have already chosen the sunny spot for your preferred patio location. And you have chosen a location near the house for the barbecue. Ergo: full patio in sun, bbq pad near house (not a full patio). Kind of wish we could see these same photos in a snowless season. :)

Thanks for the comment. I just went and looked for pictures of the yard in fairer weather. Amazingly, I don't have anything that is useful! The only pictures we have are from an occasional LARGE party, and you cannot see the yard for all the people!

I suppose your point is well taken, that we are using the yard the way we are for a good reason. However, I'm not ready to say that this is the optimal usage just yet! :) Also, if we we re-route the walkway, that may change the equation. I should report that the table you see was just purchased last fall. We lived here for nearly 20 years without a proper patio table, and finally broke down and bought one. We just plopped it down in the middle of the yard without thinking too much!
angie_diy
Original Author
7 years ago
If cars not parked in garage, what is garage used for?

Oh, the usual embarrassing things. Mostly storage and clutter, but also my de facto workshop (table saw, workbench, miter saw…). Every so often I say “This is ridiculous!” and try to clean it out. But wait, I need that pile of snow tires, I still need my large tile saw until I finish the backsplash, can’t do without a lawnmower, where else can we put the bicycles, etc., etc. Very frustrating.

Even if you don't really NEED privacy, I think it would make a better looking, more comfortable space to have some plantings/structures that create a SENSE of privacy, [snip].

Oh, me too! I did not mean to imply that privacy was not desirable. The way you describe the possibilities sounds fabulous and attractive!

What kind of garden is the one between walk and fence? And you wish to continue with that activity?

I wish I could say that the gardens are treated with benign neglect, but I am afraid it doesn’t quite rise to the level of “benign.” ;) It was along that fence that we had a stand of gray dogwoods from a previous owner. As I mentioned, they were very unruly, and we did not even like them that much, and our neighbors complained bitterly about the suckers. So I took them out over the last two years, and there is essentially nothing but weeds there now, except for one French lilac. If we decide to put anything there, it should be something low maintenance. I do not feel strongly in favor (or disfavor!) of putting something there — whatever makes sense!

You didn’t ask, but, at present, there are the following well-established plantings. Along the side of the house is a bed of hostas. Along the back of the house there are ferns. Along the property line with the white house, there is a dense bed of tiger lilies abutting a dense bed of daylilies, with a couple of cute interlopers (clematis, bleeding hearts). All of these were there before we moved in nearly 20 years ago, and have survived under our shameful neglect! I am not tied to any of them.

If you are an inexperienced bobcat operator, it will be likely that you will create much more damage to the grading operation (and maybe some other things!) than you will be likely to accomplish or fix.

A word to the wise is sufficient! I will heed your advice on this. I will look forward to getting a grading plan done by someone who knows what he or she is doing!

The space to the right of garage as you're looking from the house ... how is that used now?

Great question! That is indeed our space, but it “feels like” our neighbors’ space. About 10 years ago, I planted a row of dwarf Korean lilacs. I am not married to these, so if you can see a better option, I am open to it!

(Parenthetically, in a fairer universe, the wedge next to my garage would belong to the eastern neighbors, and the wedge next to the western neighbors’ garage would belong to me, but it was not to be…. The western neighbors do not use their wedge, so I did ask if they would be interested in selling that area to us (or leasing or selling an easement), but they decided not to pursue this idea.)

Thanks again for your time, Yardvaark.
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Yardvaark
7 years ago
What I meant in asking about the garden, since you used that word, is if you had a specific horticultural endeavor -- like vegetables or flowers -- as distinctly separate from general landscape planting. But it sounds like not.

"Grading plan" .... this will come after the hardscape area/patio layout is determined. You may not need a separate plan per se, but you will need to know elevations of existing and hardscape elements, what the grade is doing now and what it needs to be doing at the end of the construction ... all on paper, of course. This is one aspect of planning that would be much easier to know by an on-site visit.

So the garage is a shop. Fine. The door and a proper path to it will still be important.
angie_diy
Original Author
7 years ago
So the garage is a shop. Fine. The door and a proper path to it will still be important.

Yes. If I do route the walk along the fence, I planned to have a sidewalk teeing off of it, and running along the garage to that side door. (Unless, of course, I put a patio in that area, abutting the side of the garage.)

And yes, you are correct, I am planning to let my thumb remain brown! :)
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Yardvaark
7 years ago
No better day than St. Patrick's to commit to changing the brown thumb to forever green. Caring for landscape plants is, in general, easier than caring for unique and sometimes fussy, "gardening" plants.

Are these the main travel paths?

To cut to the chase, I would lean toward placing the patio between the house and a location central to the yard ... and forget the separate path to the garage and parking. Just use the patio as this path. Placing it centrally allows best room for planting around the perimeter.
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angie_diy
Original Author
7 years ago
Just back from a weekend trip. Again, my deep thanks for the ideas and work, Yardvaark!

This is an idea we had never considered before, and is of interest to us. I am still trying to digest it a bit. I am going to lay this out in person, using a garden hose to mock up the border of such a patio, and see how it feels and try to envision in it. It seems promising and liberating! You are probably right -- I don't know of a good reason to have a dedicated path.

Yes, you have correctly identified the main travel pattern. I do have a few questions for clarification, though. Do you envision putting hardscaped paths where your green arrows are? I do think that I need such paths, because we need to shovel these in the winter. Here are a couple of pictures -- the fact that I even took pictures means that this was a somewhat unusual event, but we do need to shovel not infrequently through the winter, and then have a long "squishy season" in the spring.

However, incorporating the patio into our walking path seems doable. I am excited to see what that would look like in real life daylight!

Thanks!!
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Yardvaark
7 years ago
The question I'm asking about incorporating the path and the patio into one is not at this point any kind of envisionable plan. It is merely a scheme that asks why duplicate a path instead of incorporating it into another, wider, adjacent path? It's not yet something you could "lay out with a garden hose."
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Yardvaark
7 years ago
But answering "yes" -- to the question of it the path-to-the-cars and the patio can be combined, naturally leads to scheming up an example of what such a thing might look like. This example is not representative of the only possibility, or of all possibilities. It's just one. You can probably "imagine it" with the garden hose.
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