Lizzie - Miles is looking good - handsome boy! Just a thought about the first blooms on the Dreamland series - they probably will look better, fuller, more symmetrical once they start setting their next blooms. I found that to be the case with some of my plants, especially one's that were started in pots and had their first blooms while in the pots. Maybe they weren't getting enough leg - uh, root - room. Anyway, they straightened out by the next bloom. And though ZM might say that the genetics probably wouldn't have been affected, I'd hold off gathering green seed from the plants until you see the best blooms. No need to rush to get as many generations in a growing season as possible. Though in your zone, you might get a whole 'nother generation without even pushing it! And out of curiosity, are there green fertile seeds already on those greenhouse plants? Did you feel them at the base to see if they were plump? If they've been sitting in a greenhouse somewhere before they brought them out to sell, there's a good chance they haven't been pollinated.

ZM - now that's what I'm talking about! It may not be what you call a "bedhead", but it's what I call "BEAUTIFUL" ! I guess you guys have pushed me to it. I'll start some zinnias today. But which ones - oh, the choices...

- Alex

ZM-

Yeah, he's healing well. You can barely tell where they shaved him now and I don't think there will even be a scar. Wowie, that bloom is incredible. Blushing at the base of the petals, too? Nice.

Alex-

That's a great question about the green seeds. No idea. I harvested some dry seeds from my Profusions last night (many blooms looked very color-faded and were starting to dry up, so I wanted them off anyway). I can't tell if they're occupied. This batch lived in an outdoor nursery with a canopy, so it's possible they could have seen some action. Some toward the center are paper thin and clearly empty, but it's harder to tell with the dark dry ones at the edge. They have that ridge that throws me off. Some of the little Y's were shriveled up, but some weren't. How obvious is the plumpness at the seed head? Learning curve.

Lizzie

Lizzie - ZM call tell you more, but here are pics from my zinnias last year to give you a visual:

I was posting them to illustrate how some seeds were exhibiting pollination even though the stigmas were still yellow and unshriveled. The bottom pic shows an obviously empty seed pod.

Later, Alex

Wow, Alex !!!

You dropped those pictures in while I was composing this message. And they are excellent. The more the merrier, so here is one of my old pictures.

Hi Lizzie,

" How obvious is the plumpness at the seed head? "

Lizzie, it is fairly obvious after you have pulled the seeds out of the seed head., as you can see from Alex's close-ups, and this old picture of mine.

ZM

I still can't tell if my seeds are fertile, but have been practicing single petal+seed extraction on the removed blooms. I'll save what I harvested and let the next seed heads stay on the plant longer. I keep waking up really late and missing the new pollen.

I've run out of room in the bean-shaped zinnia bed, so my dad is going to turn over a nearby area tomorrow. This time I want it to be a long strip that's easier to grid out and plant (and hoe!). My mom keeps talking about picking up some large galvanized stock containers to use as planters near the patio. Really hoping she gets them- it would make it way easier to get a really clean zinnia bed going. Maybe not for the taller varieties, but the ones in the 2-3ft range.

In the meantime, I'm starting a few more indoors.

ZM-

Your seed sorting pictures are fascinating. I should have gone with large and small for the groups, but I got curious about color.

The large ones I'm starting to recognize as the seeds on the outermost level of the seed head. Most here are spear-shaped, but there is one that is rounded.

Myles says how about long and thin versus short and wide.

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

Those last ones, the light colored ones, look a little bit like zinnia embryos. I have never seen them come from a commercial seed packet. I have removed the embryos from some of my own seeds, and even grown several flats of zinnias from embryos. I think Alex has dabbled with zinnia embryos, too. That is one way to speed up getting seedlings from green seeds.

With all your expansions, and your warm growing season, you are kind of leaving the rest of us behind. It will probably be at least three weeks before I plant any zinnia seeds in-ground. I probably will plant a few zinnia seeds indoors tomorrow, but just a few. They will be a bit fancy, though. More later. You are doing good.

ZM

Alex and ZM-

Psh, I feel bad for you two having to tolerate my boring standard zinnia photos and questions for the next year or more while I have the great pleasure of seeing your magical new forms. Hopefully my extended growing season will end that sooner. At this stage, every small uninteresting thing is exciting for me, so I'm posting photos of dirt, sprouts, and store-bought plants like they're great victories. Someday!

ZM-

Huh, zinnia embryos. That's not what I expected. The seeds are from Johnny's. "Giant Dahlia-Flowered", 40-50 inches tall, pretty much every zinnia form and color listed as possibilities (even scabiosa and bicolor). Seemed a little more interesting than the Benary series and was definitely cheaper. I haven't noticed the white seeds among any of my other zinnia seeds.

Ohhh fancy zinnias, you say. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing these!

Lizzie

Lizzie -

OK, here's my thought on the light colored seeds. They are pretty definitely (IMO) disc seeds (the inner seeds as opposed to the ray seeds which are the ones attached to the outer petals) that just happen to be lighter in color. ZM is right that I have messed around a bit with denuding not just zinnia seeds, but quite a few others now. ("Denuding" being the term I'm using for removing the outer seed coat and exposing the embryo.) I credit him for this often helpful step - whether he originally thought of doing it or not - he's the one from whom I learned it. As a result of using this method, I have achieved improved germination, sometimes substantially greater, on some seed with very hard seed coats or on older seeds which have very dry coats which are especially resistant to water penetration. (And, as he mentions, to speed up germination on green seed.) Understand, I don't automatically do this with seeds - it's a pain in the ass -ha! Time-consuming and potentially dangerous to the embryo if you accidentally damage it in the process. But it's good to know if you've had difficulty with germination or suspect you might have difficulty with something you particularly don't want to chance losing to rot because the little embryo can't battle it's way out of the protective coat.

Anyhoo - I can see the seed coat in those light colored seeds - those aren't denuded embryos. But the fact that you've separated them as to color is a cool idea, because if you keep track of them, we may be able to see if that lighter seed color is related to bloom color. Scientific method - gotta love it! It's like ZM's telling us about seed shape sometimes being an indicator of petal shape. That applies only to the ray seeds, though, Lizzie. The disc seeds are all going to be that sort of pointed oval shape since they are from around the central cone. The ray seeds will be an asortment of shapes and generally with the tell-tale ragged stub at one end where the petal was.

Planted zinnias last night. :)

- Alex

Hi Lizzie,

" Psh, I feel bad for you two having to tolerate my boring standard zinnia
photos and questions for the next year or more while I have the great
pleasure of seeing your magical new forms. "

Like I said to Ryan back on March 15th, I think crossing commercial zinnias with the Whirligig strain is one key
to getting new forms. The Whirligig strain was developed from
inter-species crosses between Zinnia elegans and Zinnia haageana, so it has many hidden genes just waiting to come out. So I suggest that you do grow a significant number of Whirligigs, looking for new forms in them, and crossing them with whatever, to get new recombinations of zinnia genes.

I got my toothy petal tips from just crossing together different Whirligigs that already had some noticeable toothy tendencies on their petals. I was hoping that crossing various slightly toothy specimens will yield toothier specimens, and sure enough, that happened. And repeating that process increased the effect. I eventually got some weird results.

Anyhow, in addition to their standard bi-color and tri-color blooms, Whirlgigs have some other interesting surprises "up their sleeve". Incidentally, not all Whirligigs are created equal -- different companies offer significantly different strains of them. Nominally they are a fully double bi-color cactus strain, but those from Parks are semi-double and single. Surprisingly, the single bicolor and tricolor zinnias can look quite good. Their fully exposed petals can show off their full interesting coloration. I still prefer the fully double Whirligigs, like those from Stokes Seeds.

Incidentally, the tri-color Whirligig zinnias are just bi-color zinnias with an extensive overlap zone.

On a different matter, I now have to totally agree with Alex about your seeds not being embryos. Alex has considerable expertise with seeds. And zinnia floret seeds do look completely different from zinnia petal seeds. Zinnias are capable of some very different looking seeds. Including some little black floret seeds that look very much like mouse poop. (If Alex gets to say "ass" then I should get to say "poop". That's only fair.)

ZM

Zensei-san - you, of course, may say poop or poo or Winnie-the-Pooh, for that matter, in your own thread whenever you please. I, on the other hand, perhaps spoke precipitously in saying "ass" since I am a guest here. It would have been preferable if I had instead said it was "a pain in the derriere", French being the language in which one may make any form of questionable declaration and still sound elegant.

I only chose 24 zinnia selections from my stash, these representing only 9 basic crosses. Out of each envelope I only chose 9 seeds. That's still potentially 216 plants, but even if they all germinate, I won't plant that many. Would like to keep it at under a 100 to be honest. Have got so much to do this year. We'll see what happens.

Am in the middle of transplanting my tiny babies: poppies, pansies, petunias, etc. Just paused for lunch break. Back to work.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" Am in the middle of transplanting my tiny babies: poppies, pansies, petunias, etc. "

Are you moving them outside in-ground, or just re-potting them indoors? I ask, because you are well North of me, and I am not doing anything outside yet. I know that poppies and pansies are cool weather, but don't think petunias are.

This is one of my current indoor blooms with tiny "fingers" on its petal ends.

ZM

Learning so much in such a short time. I didn't know you could remove the seed coating of a dried zinnia seed. Even after seeing photos of you guys harvesting green seed embryos, that never occurred to me. I've performed scarrification on morning glory seeds to improve/speed germination, so why not remove the whole casing and why shouldn't it also work on other seeds with hard casings?

Rest assured, all the Carousels will be going in the ground. I have a small batch from a trade, too. Hopefully they're a little bit different.

Have either of you had any success making your own haageana-elegans crosses yet?

ZM-

The very center of that finger bloom is interesting. It looks like the...whatever the center parts are called...are bicolor, yellow to deep pink. The special striped petals on the wine-colored zinnia are really cool, too. So unusual.

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

" ...all the Carousels will be going in the ground. "

Good. As I recall, Carousels and Merry-Go-Round were the same bicolor strain under different names, and they were replaced by Whirligig, which was considered an improvement. I grew a few Merry-Go-Rounds before they were discontinued. I also grew a lot of Zig Zags before they were discontinued.

" Have either of you had any success making your own haageana-elegans crosses yet? "

Not so far for me. I have been applying pollen from several of my elegans/hybrida breeders to a selected dark purple tipped cream haageana specimen (Jazzy Mix) for the last few weeks. I won't know until I grow the seeds from the selected Jazzy Mix breeder whether any of the crosses were successful. My motivation is to get the deep purple color from haageana into my hybridas. This is the haageana I am using as a female.

" The very center of that finger bloom is interesting. It looks like
the...whatever the center parts are called...are bicolor, yellow to deep
pink. "

You are right, and observant. Those zinnia bloom parts are frequently called "chaffy scales". I don't know if that is an official botanical term. There are a lot of them in a zinnia bloom. They have their own genetic color and shape properties, independent of the petal color. They are a frequently overlooked important component of a zinnia bloom.

This is another current indoor bloom. It was derived from a California Giant.

ZM

Are you moving them outside in-ground, or just re-potting them indoors?

Definitely indoors! These guys are teeny-tiny, and it's way too early here for outdoors.
Here's a pic from last night. To the right you see poppies - these could be my attempts at hybridization with the papaver somniferums or the new Royal Wedding orientals I decided to purchase. They should be stunning: white petals with a black center, and huge as the perennial orientals are. Don't know what to expect from the somni hybrids - can't be bad. :)
On the left are some petunia hybrids, with some transplanted clumps of blue lobelia in the cells behind them. And at the back, looking like a patch of moss are the pearlworts for my little rock garden I've decided again to put in the patio garden. (I gave up on the idea last year since I knew I wouldn't have the time.) Those pearlwort seeds were the tiniest I've ever planted - like dust. Wasn't sure what germination would be like, so I sowed thicker than necessary obviously. Decided against trying to transplant and just went in with cuticle scissors and razed sections to the ground after I took this photo. I can transplant survivors after they put on a bit more size.

I am still re-potting.

Yeah, me too. yesterday was just the start. Though I may have to wait till tomorrow to continue. Gotta go to the shop today and do something that actually makes money. :)

Lizzie -

I've performed scarrification on morning glory seeds to improve/speed
germination, so why not remove the whole casing and why shouldn't it
also work on other seeds with hard casings?

Well, it can - but as I stated above, it's a pain in the...posterior. :) Though, to use the morning glories as an example: if you did your scarification and soaked the seeds, and still didn't see germination in a timely manner, then you could try to carefully remove the somewhat softened seed coats with some cuticle scissors or an exacto blade. I prefer the scissors since I'm less likely to slip and cut myself, though I've been known to send a seed rocketing across the room like I'm operating a pea shooter. The zinnia seeds are easier because they have an edging that can be snipped and the embryo can slip right out of the opening.

And no, I haven't done any crosses with Z. haageana. As it is, I had to be talked into the whirligigs in the beginning. I was all for just working with cactus forms of the elegans, but now I'm really glad ZM impressed the importance of the whirligig genes. They have produced the most interesting effects in my hybrids.

Later -

Alex

ZM-

Darnit, I didn't know there was a real difference between Carousel and Whirligig. Can you recommend a supplier?

That Cali Giant descendant looks like it's trying to form tubular petals. How did your tubular petaled flowers manifest themselves? Did they start as extreme rolls?

My reddish-orange Dreamland is looking a lot more impressive today. Most of them are branching as hard as they can.

All 12 plants are blooming and while there is still no yellow, there is more variation than I thought. Mostly in the reds/pinks.

There's this coral color, much prettier in person. Looks like I'm finally up in time to catch some freshly opened pollen florets. Time to get the paint brush and hope the pollen is not too wet to work with.

Lizzie

Went back to the greenhouse for some more Dreamlands. They No longer had them in 6-packs, just singles, which made them more expensive. They did look healthier, though. As luck would have it, one was starting to bloom.

My yellow was waiting for me. I chose 5 of its siblings at random, plus one of each Swizzle because they were there and who carries Swizzles??

I should have selected a plant that wasn't blooming yet for the red and yellow Swizzle, but the smaller bloom on this plant looked kind of weird, so I got it. That makes no sense, now that I think about it- the other bloom is clearly normal.

The yellow Dreamland was so rootbound that it had knots of roots coming out of the drainage holes of the container. I had to do shameful things to that plant to get it out. If I did it all over again, I would dissect the container.

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

" Darnit, I didn't know there was a real difference between Carousel and Whirligig. Can you recommend a supplier? "

I purchased my Whirligig seeds from Stokes Seeds because they have the double version, and sell seeds in pretty much any quantity you want buy them. Obviously the price per seed is lower the larger the quantity. I knew I was going to plant a lot of them, and do so over a period of years, so I bought a quarter pound. That has lasted me for several years.

There is an advantage to buying more seeds than you need that I have discussed previously, but it is worth mentioning here. I have noticed that there is some correlation between zinnia seeds and the plants they produce. Wide seeds tend to produce wide petals, long thin seeds tend to produce long thin petals, big seeds produce big blooms, and so on. So, keeping that in mind, I just pour a bunch of zinnia seeds out on a sheet of typing paper and go through getting the "pick of the litter" to plant. You want big blooms -- pick out the biggest seeds to plant. Culling is a powerful plant breeding technique, and seed-time culling is a very early start. I don't always just pick the biggest or longest seeds -- sometimes I go for "interesting" or "warrior" looking seeds, like these.

" How did your tubular petaled flowers manifest themselves? Did they start as extreme rolls? "

No, I just found a tubular petaled zinnia growing in my garden. At first I thought it was a mutation that had occurred in my garden, but now I am relatively certain that there is a race of tubular petaled zinnias that live "under the radar" in commercial zinnia seed fields. My tubular came from a commercial seed packet. I crossed it with every "breeder" zinnia in my garden. I saw a posted picture of a red zinnia, and in the background there was a tubular zinnia just like mine. That gardener hadn't noticed it, and I suspect that a lot of very interesting zinnias go unnoticed all the time.

Great pictures. That fly was posing for the picture. More later.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

I don't know WHAT these Dreamlands are made of, but they are weird.

I can't tell if this is natural or some kind of damage, but at least two of them seem to have stripes (even on the pollen florets). Also happens to be the pair with the strongest bicolor.

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

As you mentioned, that last Dreamland on the right-hand side seems to be a bicolor in addition to to the color bands. The base of the petals seems to be a light pink. And the petal shape is almost like a tennis racket at the end. Something definitely different there.

Your Swizzles give you some bicolors that you can almost immediately start cross pollinating with. This is another of my indoor blooms that has a finger effect on some of its petals.

ZM

Does this look right? I was able to extract what looks like an embreo, but it doesn't look very plump. Tried to look for shriveled stigmas, but also plucked a few yellow ones.

ZM-

You know your red and yellow dichotomous? bicolor with the gap? The scarlet & yellow Swizzle seems to have that and the chaffy petals in that gap are deep pink. I'll edit in a bit with a pic.

Lizzie

Edit:

The gap want as big as I thought, nevermind.

Being the bee.

Trident stigmas.

Hi Lizzie,

That embryo looks a little small, but if when you gently pinch it it seems to have some substance, it might grow.

" Tried to look for shriveled stigmas, but also plucked a few yellow ones. "

As Alex has amply proved photographically, perfectly viable green seeds can have yellow stigmas. That surprised me. This older photo shows some surgery on green-seed petals, with one showing a nearly naked embryo. In my experience, zinnia embryos are white. The photo show various ways to breach a green seed coat to make the seed immediately germinatable. (See the explanation at the bottom of this message.)

The seedcoat of a green seed is alive and impervious to water. In order to make the green seed immediately germinate-able, it is necessary to breach the seed coat in some way, as was done in the top photo. Or, you can just plant them green and in two or three weeks the green seed coat will die and become water permeable. You can speed things up by weeks by breaching the green seed coat. Removing the embryo and planting it is optional.

ZM

ZM-

Thanks, these pictures are very helpful. Up close, those zinnia embreos look a lot like the inside part of sunflower seeds. Mine was pretty flat. Will keep trying!

Lizzie

Lovely photos, ZM. I don't remember ever seeing #2 and #3. Shows the process so well.

Lizzie - if you look at ZM's embryos, you'll see that they are white but also opaque. It's impossible to be sure looking at your photo, but it seems like your embryo is more on the translucent-side. As author Gertrude Stein once said: "There's no 'there' there." If there's a little living being in there, it should show as more solid.

BTW - like that orangey-red and yellow bloom; have always been partial to that combination.

- Alex

Hello Alex and Lizzie,

This is one of my current indoor tubulars that I have taken a fancy to.

Zinnia blooms can absorb quarter-strength foliar-fed Miracle-Gro advantageously through their blooms, so there is no reason they could not absorb nutrients from the decomposed insects.

So I suggest that this is potentially yet another carnivorous zinnia. Zinnias are full of surprises.

ZM

PS This thing looks a little bit like a Lantana.

ZM - it looks a great bit like a Lantana to me! And if one can designate things as dahlia-flowered and gallardia-flowered, then why not Lantana-flowered? I like it. That photo is making it look like it has a fused leaf that encircles the stem - that's an illusion, right?

My pre-germinated zinnias are going to town now, and in the forefront were my two favorites: R1-#1 and R2-#1 selfs. Here's what the donors looked like:

R1-#1

and R2-#1

These two were planted side by side, so if they aren't selfs, they could be crosses with each other, which could be cool, too. I have seed of those crosses started as well, though - just in case.

More planting of pre-germs today (hopefully) as well as transplanting of petunias, etc.

Later -

Alex

Hi Alex,

" That photo is making it look like it has a fused leaf that encircles the stem - that's an illusion, right? "

Yes, it is an illusion, caused by the fact that the leaves on that plant are very large and wide, including the two leaves on the stem immediately below the bloom.

Oh well. I will continue undiscouraged trying to increase the size of my zinnia plants as well as their blooms. There will undoubtedly be a few hiccoughs along the way.

" And if one can designate things as dahlia-flowered and gallardia-flowered, then why not Lantana-flowered? "

Why not, indeed? However, I do hope to get the petal ends a closer match to real lantanas before I apply the name "lantana flowered". More later.

ZM

ZM - those leaves are HUGE. Hardly look like zinnia leaves. But as you like to say, zinnias can do all sorts of interesting things. Right now what they've done is exhaust me! I've been planting pre-germinated seeds and transplanting other kinds of baby plants all day. I could have sworn I told myself last year I wasn't going to be doing this many plants this year - how did this happen? Sigh. And it just about kills me to consign any of them to the compost, but if I tried to keep every single one of those little ones, I'd be out of space before I even got done with the rest of the pre-germs.

Are we having fun yet?

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" Are we having fun yet? "

We are having fun. Those petal "fingers" like I mentioned back on March 24, 2017 at 9:19 can have a number of effects on bloom appearance, depending on the shape of the fingers, For long narrow fingers, the bloom can take on a rather extreme look.

Base tubes are not present on many petals with fingers, which may simply have fingers on the ends of rather conventional petals, like this current specimen.

Incidentally, that was a great response you made in the Need suggestions for neighborhood planting message thread. Very impressive. Before I noticed it was from you, I was thinking this could be from an academic professional in a university Plant Sciences department. Saw it was from you and immediately thought, well, no surprise -- the Force is strong in this one. You did WAY BETTER on that message than I could. My hat is off to you. More later.

ZM

ZM-

Without seeing the leaves, I'm not sure anyone would guess that either of those finger-petaled flowers are zinnias. Wow.

Harvested my first green seed embryo today!! I'm confident it was occupied- the pictures you guys posted really helped. I forgot to take a pic in the excitement, so it's already sown.

I think this is a Thumbelina. This may end up being my first from-seed zinnia to bloom, which is just fine with me. It's an all-around nice looking plant. If a slug gets it before it blooms, I'm going to sink kiddie pools of flat beer in the yard. Probably find some neighbors in there come morning.

On an unrelated note, the Texas Bluebonnets are blooming. Have to say, I love the blue color next to the red and orange marigolds. Might have to plant a bunch in the ground next to it.

Lizzie

Lizzie - oh how I love blue bonnets! Can't remember if I ever tried them up here. I may have just assumed they wouldn't live long enough to bloom. I should rethink that. Maybe I can start them indoors like a lot of the other annuals I grow. I see they have them available at Wildseed Farms; I've ordered from them before. (I've even been there in a past life. Cool place. )

Great looking Thumbelina - very healthy looking. I'll cross my fingers for you that the slugs keep their slimy mitts to themselves. Do NOT like slugs.

ZM - oh stop it; you're making me blush. Really she should at least consider some perennials for that space. So many choices and more bang for your buck since she said her budget was limited. Next year, there they'll be. And you can still plug in the non-stop blooming annuals around them. Hard to go wrong with the Wave petunias and zinnias.

That yellow you posted above is GORGEOUS. A whole 'nother form. The thistle one is interesting, but in my book, can't compete with that yellow. Sure hope the only two yellows I had last year make an appearance again this year. And the white as well - I only had one of those.

I am almost done with my pre-germs - whew! I got impatient last night with the slowpoke zinnias, and after all the talk of removing seed coats, I went to work on what was left and simply planted them as is. Only had a couple of for-sure-dead seeds out of the couple of dozen that were left, so that was good. Still have way too many seeds planted, but maybe I can trade plants for eggs with the new Amish neighbor ladies down the road when the time comes. Was going to make that suggestion before I ever started seeds, but still don't know them very well, and got shy. :)

- Alex

Hi Lizzie,

That Texas Bluebonnet so soon was a surprise. Looks great.

" I think this is a Thumbelina. This may end up being my first from-seed
zinnia to bloom, which is just fine with me. It's an all-around nice
looking plant. If a slug gets it before it blooms, I'm going to sink
kiddie pools of flat beer in the yard. Probably find some neighbors in
there come morning. "

Chuckle. When you start catching neighbors in your slug traps, you are probably over-doing it. But seriously, if slugs are a problem, there is a product called Sluggo Slug and Snail Killer that is quite effective, and reasonably safe around pets and kids. Its active ingredient is iron phosphate, so any of it that doesn't get eaten by slugs or snails can enter the soil to supply phosphorus and iron for your plants.

Their is a "Plus" version of the product that kills a wider variety of things with an additional active ingredient, but it costs more and probably isn't as safe. Your local garden store probably has Sluggo. I have a few spots that slugs like, so I use Sluggo to keep them in check. A big slug could probably wipe out your Thumbelina plant in a single night, so it might be a good idea to sprinkle some Sluggo around that area.

" Without seeing the leaves, I'm not sure anyone would guess that either of those finger-petaled flowers are zinnias. "

One of my breeding goals is to develop new flower forms in zinnias. However, I am also growing a lot of conventional zinnias, like this current cactus flowered specimen.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Hi Alex,

" That yellow you posted above is GORGEOUS. A whole 'nother form. "

I'm glad you like it. I like it too. It reminds me of a Bachelor's Button. It would be nice to develop a whole strain of those in a complete range of colors. And maybe some bicolors.

" ...but maybe I can trade plants for eggs with the new Amish neighbor ladies down the road when the time comes. "

That sounds like a good idea. My son raises chickens (and guineas) so we usually have some fresh eggs. None of them are as large as those Jumbo eggs that are available in the supermarket. But our chickens are free-range, so our eggs have a lot of flavor. Our guineas only lay eggs during their mating season, which is starting about now. We save their eggs to incubate to make more guineas, to replace our losses. Occasionally the guineas hatch a nest on their own. Unfortunately those nests are frequently attacked and destroyed. Those pesky chupacabras can thin the herd when they get the chance. Or maybe it is coyotes.

I still like to use tubular petaled zinnias as breeders. This is a current indoor specimen.

ZM

ZM - I'm pretty sure I told you I had an odd multiple occurrence of tubular flowers this past season: rudbeckias and echinacea. I started the ech seeds inside (pre-germ in the fridge); the others I winter-sowed. I don't think I'm going to have luck with the echinacea - doesn't seem to be growing though there was germination. The outside seeds aren't showing anything yet. I just found it odd that there should be an almost spontaneous appearance of tubulars in different species. Do you think there is some environmental factor involved possibly? I'll still have the mother plants anyway.

Do the guineas fall prey to predators more often than the chickens? It seems like if you aren't eating them or their eggs, you should be getting overrun with guineas. Maybe guineas just taste better to the chupacabras, though. :)

Snow starting tonight 3-5". :(

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" I'm pretty sure I told you I had an odd multiple occurrence of tubular flowers this past season: rudbeckias and echinacea. ... I just found it odd that there should be an almost spontaneous
appearance of tubulars in different species. Do you think there is some
environmental factor involved possibly? "

Unlike those television detectives who "don't believe in coincidences", I do believe in coincidences. I don't know of any possible environmental factor that could have been the cause.

" Do the guineas fall prey to predators more often than the chickens? It
seems like if you aren't eating them or their eggs, you should be
getting overrun with guineas. "

Yes, the guineas fall prey to predators maybe 10 times as frequently as the chickens. The chickens usually free-range within 100 yards or so of the henhouse, and the chickens always go back into the henhouse at night. In contrast, the guineas free range as far as 1/4 mile or more from the henhouse, Sometimes out of sight and out of earshot. The guineas frequently pay our neighbors a visit. And they (the guineas) frequently roost in one or more of the trees on the property. Sometimes the trees they roost in are as far as 200 yards from the henhouse. Sometimes they roost in a tall elm whose limbs actually hang over the henhouse. Sometimes, after a particularly scary episode with a predator, they spend the night in the henhouse with the chickens.

I am actually impressed that the guineas know their way around as well as they do and can find their way back from some of their long excursions without getting lost. We are definitely not overrun with guineas, because we are currently down to just 13 guineas. That is the fewest number since we began with guineas about 6 years ago. But the guinea breeding season is just now beginning and my son has a couple of incubators at the ready for any guinea eggs he is able to "harvest".

" Snow starting tonight 3-5". "

You are considerably farther north than I am. More later.

ZM

Well, they lied about the snow...so far. Instead the winds were higher than predicted and it rained and sleeted most of the night. Fortunately, the temps were higher as well, so the ground isn't coated with ice out there. I was frequently awoken by restless cats during the night, most notably by New Guy around 3:30 AM, caterwauling on the north porch. Not sure what the issue was except that he was obviously wet, cold and hungry, so I fed him and the rest of the feral crowd who take advantage of the dry, relatively warmer, plasticked-in (with suitable exits) porch. I know you, ZM, have been bemused in the past by my designation "feral" for these now almost all tamed creatures for whom we care, but New Guy would probably fit your definition of feral. He is the one un-neutered male who visits the colony, and other than us, I doubt he has any other human contact. Though he often shows up looking battered and worse for wear ( just finished a week of antibiotics for his last injuries - I quarter the pills and roll the pieces in wet food), he never attacks any of our resident ferals. Though he can be noisy if anyone crowds him. At this point, after having spayed so many, and since he is male and not going to impregnate any of our spayed residents, we have left him alone. I, admittedly hated the trap/neuter campaign, though I'm glad we did it - NO MORE KITTENS. Done. And his respect for our sanctuary - the fact that he doesn't come trying to pick a fight, but just to eat, sort of endears him to me. I will continue to care for him and the others until the end, and then I will shed a few tears and say "Thank the gods that's over!" This whole sanctuary thing definitely fits in the category of "if I'd known what was coming, I would have gone the other way". But we all have our own duties. As is written: "Do your own duty. The duty of another is full of danger." :)

So, hatch those little guinea chicks! They sound like fascinating birds. If I didn't have all these cats...

- Alex

My Scarlet and Yellow Swizzle looks like it's kicking the bucket. I looked for stem damage around the soil line, but haven't found anything. I removed the flowers.

Every other plant looks fine.

Lizzie - aw geez...it doesn't look good. Funny thing is that it seemed so green and developed. If it were the kind of thing that got root maggots, I'd say it was that. ZM - do zinnias have a root predator like that? I'd advise digging it up, checking the roots and replanting it. At this point, I don't think you could hurt it anymore than it's already hurt. What about gophers or moles - see any trails?

- Alex

Oh, and water it in really well.

Hi Alex and Lizzle,

There is something seriously wrong with that plant. It may be a goner.

" I looked for stem damage around the soil line, but haven't found anything. "

That coarse bark/wood mulch looks like it could actually do physical damage to a zinnia stem. Also, look for a small hole in the stem near the soil line that a Stalk Borer moth larva could have entered. Stalk borers have killed a few of my zinnias. I have responded by putting up a Bug Zapper in my zinnia patch, It kills moths of all kinds, including Stalk Borer moths and Cutworm moths. There are very few "good" moths. My son suggested I get a second Bug Zapper for my South Zinnia Garden, and I may just do that thing

Lizzie, do you happen to have a microscope of any kind? Even a toy microscope might help do an autopsy on your zinnia casualties. Or a strong magnifying glass.

If this is a zinnia disease, it is a threat to all of your zinnias. Do you have a County Agent that you could show a dead zinnia to in hopes of discovering the cause?

There is a soil-borne fungus, Sclerotium rolfsii, whose infection causes a disease commonly known as Southern Blight, Southern Wilt, Crown Rot, or just Sclerotium Root Rot (depending somewhat on which plant it is attacking). In Zinnias it is usually referred to as Southern Blight.

Alex, you are too far north to be affected by it. Lizzie, it is very common where you are. It (the fungus) usually attacks plant stems at or just below the soil level. The "experts" say that once a plant become infected, it cannot be saved. And that may very well be the case. Maybe call your County Agent on the phone about this.

Of course, this could be something entirely different. A bunch of grub worms could simply eat the plants roots. That bark mulch worries me. I suggest pulling it a safe distance away from your zinnia stems. And, as the wood rots, it will "eat" up all the available Nitrogen in your soil, so keep your wood mulch well fed with a safe level of Nitrogen. Good luck. More later.

Lizzie, call your County Agent and describe your problem, and maybe google Sclerotium Root Rot.

ZM

Ugh. I'll pull the poor thing up tomorrow during the day and scoot the mulch put away from the zinnias. I amended the bed before planting, how much nitrogen are these wood chips eating? I don't have a microscope. I am dogsitting for a guy who owns at least 6, but he is on vacation. Let's say it is southern blight. I managed to save some seeds from it. Are these probably diseased?

Lizzie

Hi Lizzie,

" Let's say it is southern blight. I managed to save some seeds from it. Are these probably diseased? "

Don't discard those seeds, because you can treat them with a fungicide when you plant them. When you save seeds from perfectly healthy plants, it is still possible that those seeds could have some seedborne disease. Commercial seed companies routinely treat all of their seeds, frequently with a carefully controlled and timed exposure to heat. I assume that all the seeds I save are infected with something, so I treat my indoor seeds with Physan 20 when I plant them, to disinfect them. Physan 20 protects against a wide range of things. Some hospitals use it in their mop water, and many commercial greenhouses rely on it to help maintain a healthy growing environment.

Zinnias, like almost all plants, are subject to several diseases, indoors or outdoors. Preventing diseases is just one of the challenges of gardening, but fortunately many natural processes are on your side. Sunshine kills a lot of little microscopic "bad guys".

ZM

Hello all,

This is one of my fairly simple indoor blooms. Nothing highly unusual or exotic. I like the way its petals curl gently upwards.

ZM

I found no holes, which is unfortunate. I could have dealt with stem borers. Two zinnias and a sunflower are melting out of nowhere amongst seemingly healthy plants. I've removed the two zinnias and don't plan to replant them, they look so bad. Threw the soil around them in the burn pile.

Here's a Dreamland. One of the many cream colored ones, which I don't really care for anyway. One of the best orange ones may be infected, keeping an eye on it.

Well, that's just bizarre. I can't see anything to point to that would explain the withered tops. The roots just seem to be closing down for no visible reason. Soil looks wet - not waterlogged, I assume, or you would have mentioned that. Maybe ZM will spot something from these pics. It's a mystery. :(

- Alex

I am, at the cellular level, an overwaterer. Last year many plants yellowed, withered, and then fell as I tried to save them (with even more water). My plants do best when I'm limited to a spray bottle, but there are too many now. The the soil was pretty wet, but I had just watered minutes before. In any case, I will dial it back a bit and see if they stop dropping. They've been fed now with a 20-20-20. We've had some relatively cool nights and days this week, so maybe they didn't appreciate the summer-sized daily drinks. Please let it be overwatering, I can correct that.

Hi Lizzie,

" I found no holes, which is unfortunate. I could have dealt with stem borers. "

I'm not sure there aren't some entry holes in the stem you showed. The white arrows indicate possibilities. Click on the photo for a larger view. F11 will make it bigger yet.

Like you say, we can deal with stem borers easier than diseases. We might be able to prevent fungus diseases with systemic fungicides, but I am not sure there is an available systemic viruscide. Unless Physan 20 might be partially systemic. More later.

ZM

When it rains, it pours. My unplanted Profusions have been looking crappy these last few days. Took a closer look and omg. Aphids, gnats, bright white furry gnats, and black things the size of aphids. I battled aphids all last summer on the butterfly milkweed. Unfortunately for the aphids, I am beyond sick of their crap. Went through every plant, hand-squishing their disgusting little bodies until my fingers pruned from the juices. Removed spent blossoms. Then I dipped every plant in soapy water. The monarchs aren't here yet, so I'm not above using insecticide if this didn't work.

Dissection of the Swizzle and Dreamland will be next.

Lizzie

My near-vision is really good, but I couldn't find any of the spots that looked like holes in the pics on the actual plants.

Cut ~1 inch cross sections along the entire main stem from root to end and then sliced each one in half lengthwise.

I didn't find anything that looked any more interesting than this. The only hollow parts I found were right below the flower heads.

Lizzie

Started thinking hmm, where have I seen this before? Checked my INDOOR zinnia and marigold seedlings, which haven't been looking as healthy as they could. Aphids. Sonovahrr. More squishing and soap. They killed over half of my marigolds (unless they can keep growing without their first set of leaves), which were special varieties from a trade and were all sown. I'm at war here.

Hello everyone,

We are well past the 100 message point here, so we will be continuing this discussion over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 41

Hope to see you all in Part 41.

Lizzie, I will talk about aphids over there. It looks like you have eliminated borers as the current culprits.

ZM