It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 45
Hello everyone,
Welcome to this ongoing message thread. Once again, the previous part of this continuing series, It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 44, has exceeded 100 messages, with a lot of picture content and a lot of text content, and that could make the thread slow to load for some users, so we are continuing the series here for yet another fresh start.
The same guidelines apply here. Anything remotely related to zinnias is fine. (Or plant breeding in general, or feral cats or precocious cats or locusts or chupacabras or whatever.)
A predicted killing frost here in East Central Kansas this coming Saturday morning will end my outdoor zinnia project. So I have already started my indoor project, although my indoor zinnias are currently at a very early stage on a single shelf.
As I have mentioned previously, my zinnia breeding strategy is guided by Sturgeon's Law, which means that I plan to grow about ten times as many zinnias as I will use as "breeders". I will cull a lot of zinnias, including some that are fairly good.
In this indoor startup phase, I am busy washing pots (I start all of my zinnias in 3.25-inch square "clear" plastic pots), "decompressing" compressed ProMix, and planting seeds. So I am busy, busy, and enjoying every minute of it. Well, nearly every minute.
I look forward to your new or continued participation with comments
and photos (and possibly even videos) here in this message thread. Thank you, Alex, for bringing video to our attention. When it comes to video, I am basically clueless, but I hope to learn.
ZM
Comments (108)
ckmayer48
6 years ago
zen_man
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoHello CeeKay,
" I had thought I might crossbreed a coral with a yellow to try for the
apricot color. At the risk of sounding stupid, I admit that I don't know
if zinnia breeding works that way (like mixing paint), or not. "Zinnia breeding isn't exactly like mixing paint, but close enough that you can think of mixing paint when doing crosses. The trick that zinnias can do that paint cannot do is to "unmix" in different ways when recombinations of genes occur in subsequent generations. Some zinnias can show a marbling or streaking of different colors, similar to what an artist might get by mixing two different thick oil paints with a painting knife.
That is a different effect from the Peppermint Stick strain of zinnias, which features dots and lines.
" You never did tell me if I have missed any of the names of your
creations- but if I am being too snoopy, just let me know. I am
insatiably curious, one of my worst faults. "I don't count curiosity as a fault. Maybe it is for cats. A lot of my "names" are just working tags until I think of something better. And there seems almost no limit to the number of different forms that zinnias can take. Zinnia petals can take a lot of different shapes. In the past I have described both of these as "toothy", even though they had entirely different appearances.
Eventually an adequate naming system for zinnia blooms will evolve, but I don't expect it any time soon.
ZM
Related Discussions
It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 3
Comments (40)Pls8xx, "One thing that has been on my mind the last few weeks is how important it is to me that a zinnia have a short compact plant form. I grow in a sand/clay mix rather than topsoil. It will hold plants upright fine when dry, but when wet the soil looses its strength and the tall plants become vulnerable to wind knocking them over." You have made a good case that you do need zinnias with a more compact plant habit. Last year, we had a very violent storm with high winds of 50mph and it blew down literally dozens of my zinnias. I had concrete re-bar tomato cages around a few of my more critical "breeders" and they were protected. But many of my big zinnia plants snapped off at the ground and many more lost their basal branches and some lateral branches. Interestingly, some of my big bushy scabiosa flowered zinnias and most of those F1s with a "scabi" parent came through just fine, with amazing resistance to the high winds. As is usual in a high wind storm here, for a period of hours we lost our electrical power, our telephone land line, and our cable connection. I studied the wreckage in my zinnia patch to see "what went wrong" structurally with my zinnias. As is usual for me, there were some surprises. I plan to apply what I learned from my "crash investigation" to make better decisions about plant structure this year. For one thing, I had planted a lot of Burpeeanas, from both Burpee and from Stokes. I had a lot of "out of the seed packet" Burpeeanas and some F1 hybrids from crosses that I made between Burpeeanas. (Incidentally, your picture of the "original" red Burpeeanas shows just how nice that Burpeeana bushy look can be.) To my amazement, some of the most disastrous structural failures were in my Burpeeanas. They have what I refer to as a "candelabra" stem structure, with basal branches coming out from the main stem at a 90 degree angle. Even though the stems look thick and strong, there is a kind of "joint" at the attachment point. Some of the basal branches that were in contact with the soil had actually sprouted roots and were apparently in the process of becoming independent plants. It's almost as if the stem joint was "willing" to detach from the main stem. But even higher up, those branches that cantilevered out from the main stem at a 90-degree angle seemed inherently weak. In almost all cases, the branches broke at their attachment points to the main stem. The plants that seemed resistant to branches breaking off had their branches leaving the main stem at a much more acute angle, like 45 or even 30°. So their branches were headed upward at the attachment point. For whatever reason, those branches seemed much better attached, even if the plant habit was more generally upward than outward. Despite the fragility of the Burpeeana plants in high winds, I plan to continue growing them and selecting the best flowers and plants. I will just be looking for stronger attachment points for their branches. If you want to emphasize compactness in your zinnia breeding, you can start with some strains that are already compact and cross some other zinnias with them. I personally have quit crossing the lower growing zinnias because I don't like kneeling and bending over to do my cross pollinating. I've always had a tendency toward lower back pain from my gardening, and a lot of bending over just aggravates it. However, short zinnias are interesting looking and fascinating in crosses, so I am thinking about constructing some really high raised beds that might bring those short zinnias up to a more comfortable working distance. There are some short zinnias that you can cross with tall zinnias that will produce some intermediate compact F1 hybrids, and the F2s from them should sort out into a wide range of plants that you could pick from for further breeding. Three of the shortest are the Thumbelina zinnia, the Zinnita zinnia, and Zinnia Short Stuff. Here is another view of Short Stuff and here is another seed source: Short Stuff at New England seed. Some taller but still very compact zinnias are Zinnia Swizzle cherry and ivory, Zinnia Swizzle scarlet and yellow, Zinnia Dreamland hybrids, Zinnia Magellan mix, and I just found that Zinnia Peter Pan mix is apparently still available. By crossing some of those compact zinnias with other zinnias you should have the basis for creating several new strains of compact zinnias, with various degrees of compactness. MM...See MoreIt can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 44
Comments (122)CeeKay - Alex, can you let the cuttings stay in the Klone King until the roots are really well developed (say 2 inches or so)? Absolutely. Actually, you want the roots to be pretty well growing (I waited for at least 3 different 1+ inch roots) before you try to transplant or it may not make the transition to potting soil. I lost some things, I believe because I jumped the gun. I didn't buy any, but there's also a special liquid nutrient that is offered for cloning, so the cuttings are getting fed at the same time. I mostly don't see this as necessary unless you were leaving something in the machine for months. I did buy some rooting hormone gel which is made specifically for the clone machines. I had some regular powdered stuff - RootTone, I think it was, but it was old, and when those yellow roses I mentioned just wouldn't root for me, and I was getting antsy to shut the thing down for the end of season, I bought it and that seemed to do the trick. The three cuttings had callused, and eventually probably would have rooted, but that sped them up, thankfully. My other two roses, as mentioned, only took a week to root as opposed to the several weeks the yellow rose took. As for your antique moss rose, I feel pretty confident that you could get successful green cuttings come Spring, using the Klone King or one of the other cloning machines. I can't say whether any of the other machines are any better, but I will say that if you see one with a dome, avoid it. After reading the material, I am in agreement that too much heat would be generated under it because of the heat from the water pump and being under lights. I think, reading that, was what settled me on the Klone King - intuition spoke to me. :) Use some rooting hormone from the beginning, though, to give things the extra edge. I was cocky and thought I wouldn't need it. Another blow to my gardening ego. Sigh. Oh, and there are different sizes - some have only 12 slots for cuttings, I think. I was "in the mode" at the time, and John said: "Go for it!", so I bought the one with 36 slots. Nice, but possibly unnecessary. Wish I'd been "in the mode" about 3 months earlier, though, when I first saw the thing advertised, because by the time I bought it, the price had upped about $25! We're also predicted to get first frost here in the morning. It's been a long season - longest I remember in ages. I have things I need to do outside still, but they are for after the annuals die, so I've been puttering around, twiddling my thumbs waiting. Am not anxious for winter, but am anxious for shutting the garden down for the season, so I can concentrate on other things. Alex, you mentioned a greenhouse- do you ever grow zinnias there? Lucky ZenMan having that sweet setup to grow zinnias in his basement. No, my greenhouse, which is about 8 x 18 ft up against the south side of the house, is not heated. Perennials can overwinter, and many annuals can handle the cold by the time May rolls around and outside temps aren't going into deep freeze for extended periods. As for ZM's basement setup, he'll be the first to tell you that you can have an indoor setup, too with just a shelf or two - or more - and a 4 ft utility light suspended over it. Doesn't have to be anything fancy. You don't have to have temperature controlled germination shelves (sniff), or even high intensity grow lights, etc, etc. My set up is pretty simple, though it's bigger now than it used to be. I have space for 12 flats that are about 16" x 23" and only 6" high. These will hold about 14 6-cell seed starters or 35 (more or less) styrofoam cups which I use instead of plastic pots for various reasons. You could set up a single shelf with one 4 ft light that would handle the equivalent of 2 of these flats worth of plants. That's still alot of plants. And if you wanted to grow some zinnias indoors, you could simply elevate your trays with books or boxes underneath, removing them as the plants grow taller. You getting me? Think I've talked enough. Whew. Alex...See MoreIt can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 51
Comments (146)OK this is good stuff ZM. I was at first blush ignoring features, instead focusing on learning mechanisms,,BUT as you wisely allude, they are one in the same, to wit: the cone IS the floret factory. And while I am aesthetically SO not a conehead fan (at least at this hour), it is so very helpful to understand that this despisable (to me) "tumor" on top of this delicate flower is indeed part of the whole operation. OK OK learning slow but sure. So now I can emesh some aesthetic thinking in my mechanical procedures. On that score, this very morning, my first breached green seed sprouted (seven days and nights I've been sweating), but doggone it I believe it is happening. I've got two rows of breach tests going on, one barely nicked, and two days ago a much more agressive scalping to see if I observe germination differernces. My first hybrid attemp is in day 17 of finished pollinating, will hold off another week to ten days to start pulling./breaching/planting seeds. Woo hoo, more fun than a barrel of politicians. John, appreciatively Low mountains Veracruz PS The colored petals in your foto are indeed gorgeous, undeniably. I also think that Zowie thing is particularly disgusting, but that's just me....See MoreIt can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 53
Comments (103)Hello four, " "Modified", that is. Do they have nectar? " Some of them have nectar, the ones I have observed with butterflies, skippers, bees, or day-flying moths feeding on them. I have no way of knowing whether my indoor specimens have nectar or not. I think they probably do have nectar. Just no butterflies to confirm that. " If the florets have a reasonable amount of nectar, then the volume of nectar in that one flower would be a butterflies' bonanza. " I have taken a few tubular zinnia petals apart, and the amount of nectar I find in each petal is relatively small. I would not describe it as a drop, but something more like a "micro-drop". Zinnias always attract a bunch of butterflies and such, but I think there are probably other flowers that have more volume of nectar. I am of the opinion that you have to be careful what you wish for. I still remember that freakish zinnia bloom that had so much nectar, and the tiny ants that were attracted to it in such scary numbers. ZM...See Moreninecrow
6 years ago
samhain10 - 5a
6 years agoHey ninecrow! Good to hear your crowing - caw! Colder than bejeebers here at the moment. This is what the windows look like:
Sigh. And we were wondering if we were going to get to skip winter this year.CeeKay - you can be curious if you want; we just won't answer if we don't want - ha ha! But the answer to the question of what other things I might be hybridizing: petunias and was trying to do pansies, but they are difficult for some reason. I can see the pistil and get to the pollen, but crosses just don't seem to happen very often. I may give up on them for now. I also made the attempt with some poppies, but it's hard to say what was my cross and what was Mother Nature's little minions doing their work. I did make a cross between a shirley poppy (papaver rhoeas) and one of my so-called 'split burgundy' papaver somiferums just to see if it would work. Once again, not sure if it worked; the resulting blooms look like shirley poppies and nothing like p. somnifs, but I gathered seed and will see what comes of the next generation. Might prove interesting. There's precedence for the different poppy families crossing. Here's a pic (ninecrow - avert your eyes 'cause these are seriously PINK):
This is what the split burgundy looks like:
Probably won't be doing much else but zinnias and daylilies and a few petunias next year. Think I'll be busy enough. :)
Alex
ckmayer48
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHello CeeKay
" Do all of the Toothies have that delicate cactus petal look? "
They vary quite a lot, but they all come from Whirligig stock. The bi-color Whirligig influence showed up in this one.
The toothiness can take on different looks in the same color, in this case, white.
Toothiness combined with petal uproll can lead to a unique look.
You really have to click on that picture for the larger version to fully appreciate that effect. A white petal backside really contributed to that specimen. Toothiness can occur in a variety of forms, some of which I suspect we haven't even seen yet.
ZM
ckmayer48
6 years agozen_man
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoHello CeeKay,
" It was in the sixties today and sunny- "
It was cold, overcast, and rainy here.
" I wish all zinnias had a colored backside, either white or the same as their frontside. "
I am with you on that. Most of the colored backsides I have seen so far have been white or ivory. I am definitely not a fan of the greenish spider veins on most zinnia petal backsides.
" I am starting to get the feeling that Whirligig and cactus genes are
involved in a lot of your creations. There must be something about them
that lends itself to mutation. "There is. The Whirligigs were derived from interspecific hybridizations between Zinnia violacea (elegans) and Zinnia haageana. Interspecies hybridization provides a much broader range of genetics for many recombinations of factors not available to just one species.
" I really love the flower form of Alex's poppies and also the Cupcakes Cosmos. "
Cupcakes cosmos raise some interesting questions. The Cupcakes cosmos at Burpees seem to be a nice single bloom, with large corrugated petals that are slightly toothy. While the Cupcakes at Park's Seed have some center stuff going on, in addition to the nice corrugated base petals. I think that zinnias can do that, both things, but it will be a happy breeding achievement, and not totally easy. The big corrugated base petals would be the most novel new feature for zinnias. I have already seen some zinnias with some of that center stuff going on.
Another Cosmos that presents a challenge to zinnias is Cosmos Sea Shells. They have, in effect, tubular petals that are giant, almost like funnels. I think that zinnias could do that, but it will take some dinking with the tubes to get that effect. Cosmos Double Click are fully double, but zinnias already can do that. Cosmos Double Take have some interesting center stuff going on. I think zinnias could do that with scabious recombination.
I hope to be doing some hybridizations involving "woolly" zinnias this Winter, to get some more variation in my tubular petals. This was a Woolly zinnia specimen.
The petals of the Woollies are usually tubes closed at the end. But there are variations, and I hope to bring out more variations yet.
ZM
ckmayer48
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agozen_man
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoHello CeeKay,
" I really am interested in getting a zinnia with cupcake petals. I
suppose the first step would be to try for the widest petals possible. "That's actually a worthy zinnia breeding goal, and a good challenge. I don't know if you are familiar with the old saying that "There is more than one way to skin a cat." Applied to cupcake petals, that would imply there could be more than one way to go at it. The one way I am going to suggest here is scabious hybrid recombinants. The rationale for that is the guard petals on scabious zinnias seem to follow different rules from other zinnia petals. This was actually a scabious recombinant.
This was another scabious recombinant.
And this was also a scabious recombinant.
Obviously none of those specimens was a good Cupcake, but they had tendencies in the right direction. All three of them had Whirligig combined with scabious genes. And they were all recombinants. So that would be the recipe: cross Whirlgigs with Scabis and cross those crosses. And grow as many recombinants as you can, just to increase your mathematical chances of success. And selection of the best specimens is important at each stage.
" Are there any other commercial large bloomed zinnia types which are interspecific? "
Yes.
That's all that come to mind right now. The Swizzles have short plants. Merry-Go-Round was a predecessor to Whirligig and Carousel was just another name for Merry-Go-Round, as I recall.
ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)
ckmayer48
6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHello CeeKay,
" After viewing them all, I believe I will stick with the Whirligigs mix
as it seems to pretty well encompass the look of most of the ones on the
listing. "I have also stuck with the Whirligigs. They have a lot more variety than the individual cultivars.
" We haven't seen a photo of your seedlings in awhile (hint hint). "
This picture was taken yesterday.
" They must be within a couple of weeks of starting to set flower buds. "
Oh, I think it might be a bit more than a couple of weeks. Some of them do need to be re-potted, though. Their next pots will be 5-inch square black polymer pots. That pot material is very flexible and lightweight. More later.
ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHello CeeKay,
" ...anything else going on in there? "
A few "fingered cactus", "fingered exotic", "fingered tubie", scabiosa flowered, narrow-petaled, and the aforementioned "super Razzle Dazzle". The "fingered" feature is getting quite a play, because it is sort of new.
In previous messages I mentioned that I typically get about 50% germination, as compared with the 80% for commercial zinnias. I had rationalized that as just amateur inexpertise in seed saving.
In the past few days I have come to suspect a more ominous reason for the 50% -- I think those may be "good" seeds that are infected with Damping Off which is actually killing the seedling before it can emerge.
That Damping Off is probably seed-borne, which suggests that I do a more extreme job of seed treatment. I have already eliminated Tebuconazole and Myclobutanil as fungicides capable of disinfecting Damping Off. I am currently experimenting with Hydrogen Peroxide in stronger doses. So far I have experimented with undiluted 3% Hydrogen Peroxide in overnight and longer seed soaks. Last night I did a 9-hour seed soak, as shown in this photo.
That little plastic container was a re-purposed Apple Sauce or Chocolate Pudding container. I use both as small containers.
The question stands as to whether 3-percent peroxide will kill zinnias seeds on prolonged exposure. Or whether it is dependably effective against all seed-borne Damping Off fungi species. (There are three different types.) Anyway, I suspect my 50% germinations should be closer to 100%, and I will continue experimentation toward that goal.
ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHello CeeKay,
" ...don't recall anything about the fingered variety or about exotics. If you have any photos of either, I would really like to see them. "
The fingered petal form is a more recent development. The fingers can occur at the ends of regular petals, like in this example.
Or, the fingers can occur at the ends of tubular petals, like in this example.
The fingers can dominate the entire zinnia bloom, like in this specimen.
The "exotics" are an evolution of the original tubulars, whose tubes ended in simple circular flareouts. Some of those flares developed tooth-like modifications.
As those became more detailed, every petal could approximate being a "flower".
Those flowerheads could become quite densely filled in with petal "flowers".
I refer to tubulars like the picture above as "exotics" because they have a lot more detail than the original tubulars. I still like the regular tubulars, because with little or no flare, they can form "starburst" blooms.
And small circular flares can still have a "nice" look.
I think there are a lot of new bloom forms that zinnias haven't shown us yet. Your "cupcake" idea is one of them.
ZM
zen_man
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHello everyone,
My older indoor zinnia seedlings are now showing flower buds.
It is time for me to repot those seedlings to 5-inch square pots. More later.
ZM
samhain10 - 5a
6 years agozen_man
6 years agoHello again,
My repotting task today is somewhat simplified by the fact that I am going from one square pot to another. The rootball from the 3.25-inch pots fits nicely inside an empty 5-inch square pot. The pot is first bottom-filled about half way up. So the zinnia will have a lot of room in which to expand its root system.
All I have to do is pour some ProMix into the empty space and tamp it down a bit.
I have already completed a few and prepared a shelf on which they can grow.
That Permanest tray has some empty space at the back. When fully filled I get 8 of the 5-inch pots per tray, and there is room on a shelf for 4 Permanest trays. So, at this stage, I can get 32 zinnias on a shelf. In the next few days I will have to prepare at least one more shelf. "Preparing a shelf" consists of hanging four shoplights over it and adjusting the height of the lights using S-hooks and chains. Busy busy. We are getting a cold rain outside, so this is a good day to be indoors. More later.
ZM
ckmayer48
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agozen_man
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agozen_man
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agozen_man
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agosamhain10 - 5a
6 years agockmayer48
6 years agozen_man
6 years agolast modified: 6 years agozen_man
6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago
zen_manOriginal Author