is this enough room for an island?
I asked for help somewhere else on Houzz and got some unfulfilling responses :) (I think I posted in the wrong place)
Anyway, we bought this crazy southwest style house with a kitchen that had a downdraft range in an island. The kitchen bar extends out into this sort of wide spot in the hallway, but it leaves about 10' of useful space. Here's a pic of how it looked before we started tearing out the floors:
The dining room is the room on the right.
So I was thinking the bar could be moved out more to make space for a 3x3 island with walnut countertop. In the spirit of go big or go home, we also were thinking about an all fridge and all freezer:
That island is just over 3x3. The work aisles on the range and sink sides of the island are 4', and the aisles between the island and the pantry cabinet and bar are both 3'.
The bar was pushed out 1' further to make the space, but there is still at least 6' from the bar chairs to the wall behind them.
Yes, it's a weird house... just trying to make it marginally better :)
Thanks for any opinions, harsh or gentle!
Comments (27)
sheloveslayouts
7 years ago
DrB477
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoRelated Discussions
Layout
Comments (40)I'm with rhome on this. Figure out what you want. Perhaps drawing up a list of pros and cons for each layout will help you decide. But if you want my opinion ;-) I think this last plan with the stove against the outer wall makes the DW, sink and range look crowded together. It certainly doesn't provide for the NKBA recommended clearances for the features. If the sink was between fridge and range it might work better (although landing clearances are still minimal) but I think there will be kitchen collisions (say that 5 times fast) since fridge/sink traffic will cross through the cooking zone. The range in the island would move the cooking zone out of that traffic pattern. Then there's the less than desirable DW/dishware storage issue you mentioned. It seems to me that you're making quite a few compromises to move the range out of the island. So I have to ask, why are you moving it? Because some GWers are rabidly opposed to ranges/cooktops in islands? (You have a sufficiently large enough island to provide safety clearances around a range.) Or because it suits your family and your kitchen needs better? This leads back to rhome's suggestion: figure out what YOU want and go from there. I like the cabinets down to the counter and the MW's location (and I'm not just saying that because I suggested it, lol). It's a good use of space and nice look....See MoreOff-White Kitchen with Marble Island/Table
Comments (65)buffalotina - sorry for the late reply but I have been focused on my landscaping now that the addition is done. My cabinets are frameless & that is one of the reasons I chose them. swickbb - Thanks...my kitchen seems so much warmer than the pics I posted now that I have accessorized a little. I still don't love my marble...but I found a company who did repair work on my new travertine floor & they suggested that they could re-hone the marble counters to make them a little less shiny so the etching doesn't show as much. I haven't done it yet because I still have other work to do on the house (like new built-ins & fireplace in the LR) before I start re-doing the new things. Plus they are getting so much abuse by my husband I am waiting to see if all the etching blends together into one big "patina" look...See MoreAnyone regret adding seating to their island?
Comments (7)Hi again RKB. I remember your other post and what you hope to accomplish. I think this is the first we've seen beyond the kitchen. Your dining area and hearth room are so pretty. Love the windows and the view. I remember from the other pics the angled island looked a little odd, but honestly more so in this picture. Wonder why the builder positioned it as such? It might makes sense if the angle of the island paralleled the angle of the window where the bench is, but according to your layout drawing it doesn't. Is that correct? Would look better if it paralleled the hearth room and maybe had the sink instead of the cooktop, but I get what you're saying about not being able to change that. Anyway, back to your question. I say no to seating at the island. Doesn't look like you have the room now and certainly wouldn't if you expanded it. I think it would just accentuate the negative, which is the angle of the island. Not pleasant to sit across from a cooktop either. I'm curious to see what it looks like from another angle. Can you please take another pic from the corner of the kitchen toward the window with the bench, including the island in the shot? Have you ever tried angling the table to more parallel the angled window? Looks like that would give you more room between the seating and island, but don't know how it would look if those angles don't line up or if it would look strange from the hearth room. I can't quite picture it in my head. Is there a 3rd window there to the left of the bench? Is one of them a sliding door to your deck? That looks like a great outdoor space BTW. I have an angled nook area that bumps out beyond the family room wall with 2 non descript windows and a sliding door to the patio, smaller scale than yours, but always interested to see how others work with that space....See MoreTwo very similar layouts...which would you choose?
Comments (22)April, I understand your goals - get the most kitchen you possibly can with your reno dollars - but I think you're crowding too much into your space, reducing ease of function with these versions. My feedback is blunt, sorry, but I want to see you get the most functional kitchen you can for your money. Versions 1 & 2: You've lengthened the table and right hand bench to 58" or 60" (is that grey thing a 2" spacer?), which means that there's only a 12" or 14" gap between table and 24" deep pantry for someone to slide into the left hand bench. That's tight. I can't determine the width of the table but I recommend one no wider than 42" to give you enough room for benches with padding or pillows. These two versions also only give you a 34" to 36" aisle between peninsula and right hand bench and the full sized fridge across the aisle. I'm assuming your fridge is 36" deep - box, doors, air gap and possibly handles included in that measurement. Even if your fridge is slightly shallower, that's still a pinch point, potentially impassable when the fridge doors are opened. You wrote that one of your beefs with your current kitchen is that traffic jams up in the narrow aisle around the fridge. You're going to recreate that same frustrating scenario with versions 1 & 2. Version 1: I'm not sure what purpose a 12" side cabinet will serve on the left side of the fridge, other than to take away valuable counter space between fridge and range. Because you're opting for a 33" Susan, not a 36", you will only have 9" between sink and open oven door. In other words, no one can be at the sink when you open the oven door. That limits your kitchen to a one-cook kitchen. I thought one of your goals was to create a kitchen that could accommodate multiple cooks during family gatherings. Simple fixes: Move the fridge to the left end of that run and add the 12" from that cab to the cab between fridge and range. Shorten the right hand bench and table to 48", eliminate the peninsula, move the oven cab to the left of the DW, change the 33" Susan to a 36" Susan and put a 30" cabinet where the oven cab was. Hmmm, one problem with this is that you now have the oven doors opening right behind anyone seated in the right hand bench. If someone leaned back or flung their hair back ... well, that could be a problem. You can address this issue with a high backed bench. Version 2: The sink/DW area has ample room but it's at the cost of the fridge/range & oven side. 9" on either side of the range doesn't provide enough room to set a pot down or enough clearance for many pot handles, nor is 9" wide cabinet space that useful. I think you'll find this a frustrating set-up. Simple fixes: I've never used corner Susans but I've seen enough posts here that one with too small an opening is frustrating to use. If you eliminate the peninsula in this version, you have enough room to swap a 33" Susan for a 36" Susan. However, that does not address the space issues of the fridge/range, oven wall. I don't think this plan is a viable option. Version 3: Part of your sink will extend beyond the window. Will that bother you? Based on comments made here, it does bother the majority of people. They want to see a sink under a window or not under a window, not partially under a window. If I'm following your key correctly and doing my math correctly, the banquette is version 3 is only large enough for 2 people, one on each side of the table. Is that your intention? I fear you're trying to make this large enough for 4 people but it really isn't. The corner is unusable, which means the bench along the sink wall is only 52" long. That's enough room for 2 people - each need 24" of room - but that leaves only a 4" gap for people to slide onto the bench. Unless you're really, really skinny - skinnier than Twiggy (that dates me) or Kate Moss (for the younger crowd) - that's not possible. Easy fixes: Move the fridge down, eliminating the 9" cabinet. Exchange the lazy Charlie (never heard this term before, funny!) for a 36" wide Susan, which puts the sink under the window. Put a 30" cab where you show a 24" cab in your plan. Go with a 36" square table to create a banquette for 2 with room for people to slide onto the bench. To seat 3, reduce the pantry to 36", lengthen the bench on that wall to 94", and opt for a rectangular table, 36" x 52" - an odd size so likely custom. I realize that in one of my earlier plans, I had suggested a 60" long table but that was when I was incorrectly remembering that a table can overlap a bench by 6", not 4" or 5". I also suggested that 18" was enough room to slide onto the bench because the pantry in that plan was only 18" deep, not 24", which does make a difference. You may be able to make 18" work between table and 24" deep pantry - you'll have to do a mock-up. None of these plans show the doorways moving. Is that beyond your budget? That's understandable but it does make squeezing everything into your space a challenge. ;-) Here's an idea to try: This pretty much reflects the changes I suggested for your version 1 and for the banquette area. The key thing I did in this plan was to move the ovens to the top left corner with a 26" cab next to it. You can store baking supplies, pans, etc in this cab, plus the counter gives you landing space for items coming from the ovens. I moved the pantry to the left of the DW, which means it shrinks from 48" to 32", unfortunately, but it no longer has to house the MW - that's in an upper cab on the DR wall - so that helps. Plus some of the items you may have stored in the pantry can now be stored in the cabinet next to the ovens. You should end up with about the same amount of storage as before. This lay-out will allow more than one person to work in your kitchen. The 42" x 48" table overhangs the bench by 4" on each side. You can add additional storage if you add a drawer to the right hand bench....See More
Sharti Bartfast
7 years agoScope is new cabinets, countertops, floors in the whole house, possibly a few new appliances, and making minor changes to non-load-bearing walls. Not making changes to sewer or water (not moving the sink more than 1-2 ft).
Here's some more drawings of the layout:
Sharti Bartfast
7 years agoSharti Bartfast
7 years agosheloveslayouts
7 years agoSharti Bartfast
7 years agosheloveslayouts
7 years agoSharti Bartfast
7 years agoDimensions:
I have a sketch with the freezer and fridge flanking the sink, but when placed on that side of the kitchen, those two appliances kill off a ton of cabinet and countertop space right near the main working part of the kitchen. Here's the sketch (showing other ideas as well), but I sort of gave up because I couldn't make it work:
sheloveslayouts
7 years agoI did this quick and feasibility depends on the width of the space. I'm wondering if you could keep the laundry room wall clear for traffic and put the range on the opposite wall. It would necessitate a prep sink in the island.
I'm just brainstorming here...
sheloveslayouts
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoThinking on this some more... What is the length of the red line; between those two walls?
Is the bay window exactly as drawn? It goes all the way to the floor? Where does the door on the left wall of the dining room go?
Sharti Bartfast
7 years ago
cpartist
7 years agoBuehl
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoDo you have a basement or crawl space? Or, are you on a slab?
Could you please post a fully measured layout of the entire space? This is an example (it's also in the Layout Help thread I'm going to post below):
Note this layout shows the widths of each wall/window/door/doorway and the distances b/w each wall/window/door/doorway.
It would be very helpful if you could also give us more information about you and your family and how you plan to use your Kitchen. Please see the "Layout Help" FAQ:
How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?
.
Something else that might help:
Ice. Water. Stone. Fire (Looking for layout help? Memorize this first)
.
Finally, the Kitchen Design Best Practices/Guidelines threads:
Kitchen work zones, what are they?
Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others
How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?
.
Sharti Bartfast
7 years ago@cpartlist, I am aware of most of the design rules and have spent a lot of time reading best practices from many places. It seems like the final design will end up a compromise and will almost certainly violate some of these rules. If you were referring to my question about the prep sink, it's still not obvious to me why it should be at the edge of the kitchen.
@buehl, the house is on a slab. It has in-slab hydronic heating, so I need to avoid cutting new holes or else I risk puncturing a water pipe. Here are some better dimensions of the current floor:
Sharti Bartfast
7 years agoSharti Bartfast
7 years agoHey, thanks, that design looks pretty good. I've been using Sketchup (since it is what I know), but it is pretty slow for kitchen layouts. Your software looks much better.
A few comments and questions:
1. In your design, traffic to the living room and back bedrooms flows through the formal dining area. Is that weird? I haven't seen many houses with flow through the dining area.
2. We drew up a few designs that walled off the existing dining area and made it into a formal dining room, but we thought that it might be a less popular idea for resale. Also, carrying food/dishes from the kitchen to the dining room would require walking around a wall. Thoughts?
3. I don't know if this matters, but the ceiling isn't vaulted -- it's 19' high, no pitch. It wouldn't be possible to frame in an entryway by the "B" in your plan view. Here's a pic looking from the front door towards the existing bar. The drop in the ceiling corresponds to the conceptual edge of the great room:
sheloveslayouts
7 years agosheloveslayouts
7 years agoSharti Bartfast
7 years agoThanks, we do like the bones of the house -- just not the previous colors, fixtures, and some of the non-original flooring choices. The original saltillo must have been nice, but it wasn't maintained to the point that we felt it would not be salvageable. Some of it had been replaced with open-strand bamboo, and I've never seen a floor that clashed so badly with every other part of the house.
I added some more dimensions here (don't know the exact placement of dining windows yet):
Here are some shots of the original dining room:
Lovely stripes, eh? Someone stuck in the 60's decided to partially redecorate a southwest-style house.sheloveslayouts
7 years agoNow that I see all the 45' angles, I wonder about further embracing them in the kitchen by putting the range and sink on 45s. Its a hike from the fridge to the range, but there'd be lots of nice prep space...
Sharti Bartfast thanked sheloveslayoutsSharti Bartfast
7 years agosheloveslayouts
7 years ago
mama goose_gw zn6OH
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoHurray for you--getting that cooktop off the small island! I like the fridge in the current location, although I'd have the panels cover the sides, and make the base cabinets on that wall extra deep to match the fridge box. That would give you more counter space between the sink and fridge, and between the sink and range. I moved the bar out a little more than you had planned, but left the angle, and made it all one level. According to NKBA recommendations you need only 44" between seating and a wall, but you would still have 60".
The freezer is where you had the pantry, with a shallow pantry cabinet facing the fridge. I drew 18" deep pantry cabinets on the right wall, but there is space for a framed pantry, which would be less expensive.
The small island is now 35" x 50"--drawers are 33" wide, back-to-back, with 1" overhangs all around. It's too bad you can't include a prep sink for helpers, but you have several spots for extra prep.
The uppers are not drawn in, but existing plan looks good, with full depth cabinets over the new fridge and freezer. Click to enlarge:
GW discussions--extra deep countersGW discussions--dishes in drawers
Sharti Bartfast thanked mama goose_gw zn6OHSharti Bartfast
7 years ago@mama goose, I just found out that the all fridge we were looking at only opens to the right! That's going to make things a bit tricky. Also, it has a large (32") door, so it needs a pretty big walkway. So we're considering giving up on it.
To all the comments about drawers... we will definitely have mostly drawers. Once we found that the up-charge isn't that bad, we decided to put them everywhere. The only question now is, should we put shelves anywhere? I went and looked around and couldn't find anything that needs a shelf except for things that will already be in a shallow pantry.
@benjesbride, I took a look at corner sinks and am pretty sure I don't want one. They seem to be too cramped. However, it would still be possible to "embrace the diagonals" by putting something like an appliance garage in that corner.
I took another stab at somehow getting a sizable walnut butcher block island into the kitchen (we loved the one in our previous house). Ideally, it needs to be large enough to be worthwhile (5+ ft, I think), but it also shouldn't make the kitchen feel cramped. So I've been toying with designs that leave the bar sort of hanging off in space:
I kind of like it, just not sure if it is too weird. Oh, btw, we already have 3 bar stools in great condition, so if it seems like I am biased towards a bar... I am!Sharti Bartfast
7 years ago
sheloveslayouts