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philosophia327

Window + Door Alignment

philosophia327
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago

Hello GW,

Can someone please explain to me how header height is determined for windows and doors? We are building new construction with 9 ft ceilings and planning to use 7 ft doors. I want the trim to line up exactly. Also using a sliding French door on the back-also 7'. Thank you.

Comments (48)

  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    7 years ago

    Window and door headers are established by measuring up from the top of sheathing or finish floor, depending on one's preference for conventions. They can be anything you want them to be as long as they fit! The challenge for aligning different doors is that they may or may not all require the same rough opening dimension. Thus one has to verify all door rough openings. Windows can simply follow suit. Hope this helps.

  • User
    7 years ago

    You would need to look at the manufacturer's head detail of each unit to determine how to align the trim and then you would adjust the window header height accordingly.

    There's not a lot you can do about aligning the trim of swinging and sliding doors.

    Give us the manufacturer, model and unit code for each. If you have not selected the windows yet you must do that first.

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  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    We have decided on Okna Insul-tec windows (5500dx-double hung, 4750dx-awning, 4700dx-casement, and 4710dx-picture). For front door, we are either going with a 7' Provia Signet 002-440 or a 7' Lemieux C31 style wood door. Using Marvin Ultimate 7' sliding French and swinging French patio doors.

  • emilyam819
    7 years ago

    For some reason, sliding doors are not always the same height as other doors (they are shorter). Just make sure you read and understand the order before you sign. You need to know the specifics - not just the type of door you mentioned above.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Marvin rep said: The Call Number 7-0 door has a rough opening height of 86 ½” for the sliding French door.

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    It appears the trim of the Marvin sliding and swinging French doors will be about 2" higher than the trim of the single leaf door unless you make one or the other a custom height. I've often done that with Marvin French doors. Or they can be far enough apart it isn't an issue, or one or both can have a transom light.

    The windows can be set to align with whatever you like but it would be wise to find the manufacturer's details to be sure rather than leaving it up to the builder. Make sure the casement/awning and double-hung head details are the same. You may need to contact the manufacturer for the details because vinyl window manufacturers are usually stingy with such info..

    I usually raise the head of windows higher than the heads of doors when the ceiling height is 9-0 in order to permit natural light to penetrate farther into the house and to emphasize the high ceiling. I live in an area with many 100 year old houses with high ceilings and it is rare to see a window head align with an exterior door head. Think carefully before falling into the alignment trap.

    philosophia327 thanked User
  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    If natural light in the interior is important, then, as JDS points out, the higher the window head the greater the opportunity for natural light to penetrate deeper into the interiors. Thus, setting the windows head to within 3"-4" of the finished ceiling allows for a maximum height, and also for the interior window trim to be applied.

    I'm one of those who prefers alignment of window and door heads, so I've always liked transom lights above doors as a way to admit more natural light and to align window and door trim. The other advantage of transom lights for exterior doors is that it allows the use of more economical 6'-8" or 7' doors (without them appearing visually "small") in spaces with higher ceilings than 8' .

    To the OP's point about head heights, you will have to get the framing details from the manufacturers of each door type and window in order to coordinate them.

    Your architect should be doing this. You do have an architect?

  • palimpsest
    7 years ago

    I think rhythm and balance are more important than alignment. If you look at classical architecture with higher ceilings, especially, the windows almost always higher than the doors. Alignment of regular windows with regular doors (although I realize you are using slightly taller doors) tends to result in low looking window headers.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Virgil Carter Fine Art-I do have an architect, but she has not been helpful :( She made a lot of decisions without our input and is very difficult to deal with. I asked her about this and she said her draftsman is on vacation and she doesn't know why he chose the window height-ugh to say the least. We are starting framing in the next few days. Foundation is set up.

    I'm going to upload my elevations and floor plan for you all to have a look and see what you think: Click here for the plans

    I also need to change the dormer dimensions as the architect has giant 4'4" square windows, which overwhelm the lower windows. I would like to go with a traditional rectangular window up there that goes better with the first floor windows. Was thinking I would make the dormers each 1 ft narrower to achieve this. Going for a Greek Revival farmhouse-ish type style. Dormers will be closed pediment style, without the returns.

    Front door faces west.

    Doing (2) 9' w x 7' h garage doors, centered. As you can see, architect left single garage door off-center and didn't really try to solve this design issue (I have a wheelchair accessible van that needs a platform landing, so that's why it was an issue.)

    Here are some dormers that I like the style and dimensions of (they have to be egress casements as they will be live dormers) Can't tell what size the dormers and windows are:

    https://cdn.decorpad.com/photos/2014/01/12/1c9dc0409097.jpg

    Also, note that the garage wing will have 8' ceilings while the main part of the house will be 9' ceilings. And I have made changes to the windows on plan. Around the sides and back will be casements, awnings, and a picture window, double hungs only on front and casements in dormers will have check rail to match lower windows. I'm a little overwhelmed with all of these details, so if you need more info, please ask. Oh and not planning on doing the front door transom unless you think it's better to do it.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    This is the window inspiration for the exercise room so we will be using narrower casements in here and this is also where the Marvin Ultimate single swinging French door will be: http://www.thelilypadcottage.com/2014/11/lake-house-sunroom-done.html

    On rear elevation, 2 sliders will become (1) 12' wide 3-panel Marvin Ultimate sliding French door.

  • cpartist
    7 years ago

    I asked her about this and she said her draftsman is on vacation and she doesn't know why he chose the window height-ugh to say the least. We are starting framing in the next few days.

    I'm sorry but that makes no sense if she's the architect. It's her job to decide on window heights, sizes etc and convey what she wants to the draftsman. And if it's not what she wants, it's her job to correct it. Something sounds fishy.

    Also why wasn't all this figured out before you started building?

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    She has been very difficult to deal with and pretty much everything I ask her, she plays confused and puts it off on someone else. And I don't trust her as an architect anymore because she doesn't seem to know the answers to the questions I'm asking and she will just say well, that's a plan change and charge us more money. I feel like the weight is on my shoulders to make everything work as it will be my house and we will be paying for it and have to live with it. It shouldn't be this way, but it is and I'm just trying to pick up the pieces.

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Will there be any habitable spaces on the upper level?

    Will the roof be framed with trusses?

    1 and 1 1/2 story Greek revival houses are rare so it can be difficult to avoid the feeling that the house is compressed. I would try raising the entire roof 9 to 10" by putting the rafters on the attic floor deck or using raised heel trusses.

    Something doesn't seem right about the draftsman story. Just to be safe, I would check the architect's registration online at the state professional licensing website. You would be surprised how many designers openly imply they have a professional license when they don't. One of the things they give up by misrepresenting themselves is the ability to use the state courts to enforce a contract.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    We are doing the attic room trusses, yes. It may not be true Greek Revival, but we are having columns on the portico and pilasters on the corners, wide frieze band, symmetrical front windows, etc. I feel like the farmhouse aspect lends a more casual feel to this more formal style. I'm not sure what the style really is. Here are some examples of 1 1/2 story houses that I like.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    JDS-her architect license is active. I did check it early on.

    As for raising the ceiling to 10', wouldn't I then have to do 8 ft doors everywhere and might it make it harder to align the windows in the 8' ceiling section? I was trying to avoid having to do the 8' doors.

  • ILoveRed
    7 years ago

    You were here several months ago planning this accessible home. I remember your frustration. It looks like you did a really good job on the floor plan. And the outside is attractive. I agree those square windows in your dormers look "off".

    dont get too frustrated. It looks like you are almost home free. Not every architect is as good as the ones we have on this board. It sounds like you got a lemon. And a grouchy lemon at that.

    make a list of the things that are bothering you...number them. Then it won't seem so overwhelming. If your architect won't/can't help, maybe someone here will.

    good luck.

    philosophia327 thanked ILoveRed
  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Thank you for your words of encouragement, ILoveRed :) And thanks for liking my floor plan-I pretty much designed it myself. On the positive side, I do feel like this house is a labor of love since I did design the interior and the architect didn't really change much.

    And you are right that the architects on here are exceptional. I am always impressed with their feedback and ideas.

    I just really need to get the dormer and dormer window sizes correct and figure out the best way to align the windows and doors.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    What would be the best way to visualize the front windows with the increased height? I want to make sure the window grids won't look weird. We have the sills set at 18" on the front windows so that I can operate the double hungs from the chair. Also I am open to suggestion on what to do for the garage loft window. I don't mind if the garage has different windows than the main house as I plan to use 2 square windows with one sides shutters like this:

    or something like this:

    or even this type of hay loft door instead of a window:

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    I will bring this up with truss manufacturer. That sounds like a good solution for improving the style.

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I can post your drawings on the forum if that is OK with you.

    Here is a link to some good info regarding raised heel trusses.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    JDS-that would be great. Thank you.

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Its rare that we see such professional drawings on the forum. Its going to be a great house.

  • User
    7 years ago

    You are on the right track with the dormers. If you want them wide, make the lower windows wider.

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    After looking at an enlarged version of the elevations I am troubled by some of the detailing. The water table, double studs between paired windows and other traditional details is commendable but a 4" trim board under the window sills is completely inappropriate. It not only looks like a tract house detail but it will prevent the sill from shedding water properly which could cause water damage to the wall below. Please don't "picture frame" a window.

    The double-hung windows shown are Andersen 400 Tilt Wash. It is one of the few windows made today that has a proper water shedding sill. The Andersen awning windows should have sub-sills since they do not have a proper water-shedding sill.

    You mentioned that you will be using PVC windows. The manufacturer doesn't offer any details on their website but I would be surprised if the sill was adequate. I find these windows to be an odd downgrade since you are still using Marvin French doors.

    Here is an interesting house by Patrick Ahern.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    We chose the Marvin because they are the only manufacturer that I am aware of that makes a low profile sill. We chose the okna based on the nfrc ratings and reading reviews on this site. I was hesitant to go with a wood window as we are on the cape. I was worried they'd rot. Also looking for the best value. I am open to your suggestions about the windows.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Here is some info about the okna windows:. https://thewindowdog.com/okna-500-reviews/

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Its funny that I was just checking the order for 30 Andersen 400 Woodwright windows for a house on the beach in Harwich Port. They are for an addition. The main house already has 25 Woodwright windows.

    The 400 series Tilt Wash has epoxy paint on the wood sash so it would not be appropriate on the Cape but the 400 Woodwright has wood on the inside and Fibrex (a PVC & wood-fiber composite) on the outside (as shown below).

    I can't tell you anything about the PVC windows you selected because I've never heard of them and there doesn't appear to be any technical information on their website but here is what "picture frame" trim does to an Andersen 400 Tilt Wash sill detail: (the Tilt Wash and Woodwright have the same frame and sill)

    To make any nail-fin window look like a traditional window it is best to add a sub-sill that extends to the sides under the bottom of the casing trim.

    Azek makes a good historic sub-sill so just tell the architect to use it instead of the 4" flat trim.

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I saw the brochure on the website. I would never consider a window if I couldn't see a section detail and put my hands on one of them. I didn't see any U-factors. What was the rating that convinced you to use these windows? Is it below .25?

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    OK thanks JDS, I will tell builder to get the azek sub-sill.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    I did go into the showroom and operate the okna windows. I think I know what you mean by section detail, but I'm not sure. What should I be looking for in the detail?

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    JDS-I'm trying to verify the nfrc numbers. This says .02 air infiltration unless I'm reading it wrong (sorry, on mobile houzz won't let me rename link):

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://acehomeimprovementsnj.com/wp-content/uploads/OKNA-Insultec-NFRC-Flyer.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiCgfLT15bSAhXIJiYKHVQBBqkQFghJMAQ&usg=AFQjCNGhtGti6yvlUA5EGIUEyVXG79aUMQ&sig2=RljfGBAs872u5oGz4sxgGg

    But here I'm getting conflicting information: http://search.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cpd_search_detail.aspx?cpdnum=OKW-K-018

    Here's another place that claims the .02 ai: https://www.wonderwindows.com/windows/double-hung/okna-500-series

    I emailed the salesperson to get the info direct from them. I know there's a lot of misleading in the ratings.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    What windows do you all like? I read that the woodwright are rather drafty :/ definitely looking for energy efficiency and a good value, but we don't want to shortchange such an important part of the house.

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    The drawings I posted are section details showing the construction of two models of Andersen 400 double-hung windows.

    If you like the construction and ratings of the PVC windows I can't think of reason to not use them. Adding a sub-sill not only gives the windows an authentic historic appearance, it solves the major waterproofing drawback of most modern nail-fin window sills.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    Double pane with argon. .25 u factor, .02 ai

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    The Andersen 400 Tilt Wash is available with the same ratings if you select the right glass but it appears the Woodwright can only achieve 0.26 which should be OK since it is better than the new MA code and Energy Star requirement of 0.30

    One concern I have about the Okna 500 double-hung is that it appears to be marketed as a "replacement window". In my experience, that can means the nailing fin is removable instead of integral with the frame and that would not be an acceptable weatherproofing detail for me. To know more about the nailing-fin detail I would need to see a section detail and also see a sample window to determine how the fins are sealed at the upper corners (a major flaw in some windows). [see next post]

    Also, I would give no credence to web sites that review replacement windows or forum comments from homeowners who have had their windows replaced. Call me old-fashioned but weather tightness will always be more important to me than energy efficiency.

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Another concern for me is the mullion detail for a PVC window. I have yet to see one with an acceptable mullion design but I don't see a lot of them and maybe Okna has solved that problem.

    I just checked the 500 double-hung and th only mullions offered are between the glass:

    I also discovered how the windows can be marketed as replacements as well as for new construction; the "nailing fin" is very large and simulates 1x4 casing trim on all 4 sides creating an integral "picture frame". It probably has a fin beyond that the simulated trim which is covered by the wall cladding. The screen track projects proud of the trim for a kind of reverse casing trim profile.

    This design is a true "builder's special" similar to the ones Harvey Industries offers. In those windows the glass width is different in the upper and lower sash so the Okna 500 might have that ugly detail as well. I really don't like these windows.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    Yes I am not a fan of the vinyl mullions either. I really don't like plasticky looking windows, siding, etc. I wanted Hardie plank siding but it was twice as much for material and labor :/ we settled for Carolina beaded vinyl siding. And I am in Cape May County, NJ. I should have specified. So you like the Andersen tilt wash and the woodwright? What about Marvin?

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    The Marvin Ultimate series is the best but probably more expensive. It definitely needs a sub-sill.

    Marvin wood-ultrex is good too. The all-ultrex is not good, even the all-ultrex replacement window is better.

    Anything will look better than the Okna windows.

    I'll be in a meeting for the next 3 hours. When do you have to order the windows?

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    Ok I will look into the Andersens. What about the header height? I am taking your suggestion about the raised heel trusses.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    JDS-Monday :/

  • User
    7 years ago

    If you have a good source for Marvin, price the Integrity Wood-Ultrex windows.

    The Andersen 400 Tilt Wash is Ok but it has an epoxy painted sash although it is pretty tough paint. The Woodwright is the same window with a Fibrex (PVC & wood fiber) sash cladding.


  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Have you seen the longevity on the fibrex? I know some composites are not all they are cracked up to be.

    What are the drawbacks of the epoxy painted sash?

    Also, what is bad about the all ultrex?

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    If you look at the section detail you will see that the all-ultrex is cobbled together and can't have any realistic looking mullions. Its intended to compete with PVC windows and I guess it does that.

    Andersen PPG Flexicron epoxy paint is not as durable as a composite or aluminum cladding. It took me a lot of effort to cut into it with my fingernail but that would have done nothing to any kind of cladding. Your need for durability depends on the local climate and environment.

    Andersen Fibrex has been manufactured by Andersen for 25 years. That's longer than many PVC window companies have been in business. It has a low thermal expansion coefficient; a low thermal conductivity ratio; a high moisture resistance and a high flexural and tensile modulus. That makes it superior to extruded PVC.

    philosophia327 thanked User
  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    Thank you for your wealth of information, JDS. I really appreciate your help. Spoke to the builder today and he is suggesting 7' header height. I think if I go much higher I may not be able to reach the hardware on the double hungs. I'm getting prices on the tilt wash and woodwright windows.

  • User
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    If you consider Marvin, the Ultimate series is great but will be out of your budget. You can try the Integrity Fiberglass Wood-Ultrex but not the All-Ultrex becasue that would put you back in the builder-grade category with between the glass mullions.

    Oddly, Marvin's replacement window called Infinity is an all fiberglass window that is better than their Integrity All-Ultrix window. It offers 7/8" Simulated Divided Lites with spacers and a nice sill although I would still add a sub-sill. However, since it is a replacement window, it might be sold by aggressive replacement window installers instead of Marvin and that might drive up the cost but its worth asking about.

  • philosophia327
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    Due to design limitations-our house has both 8 and 9 ft ceilings, we are making the header height 84". What do you think would look better: a 7' front door or a 6'8"? Possible transom if needed. Thank you.

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