Advice for renovation with layout changes hampered by bay windows

7 years ago

We are in the beginning stages of planning a kitchen renovation including layout changes. This renovation will include installing finished in place hardwood floors throughout the entire 1st and 2nd floors of the house excluding bathrooms/laundry. We are a family of 4 with two young children (age 4 and an infant)

What we are trying to fix:

• Increase the size of the entrance from the kitchen to the dining room (currently a little less than 30 inches wide)

• Remove the appliance conflict between the dishwasher and the oven. The dishwasher is currently 6 inches from the perpendicular oven run.

• Improve overall traffic flow in and out of the kitchen. Existing peninsula to closed refrigerator is only 28 inches and is the main entry into the kitchen. The current kitchen only functions with one person in it at a time.

• Increase efficiency of storage (remove soffits, remove small corner lazy susan, remove blind cabinet next to sink, etc.)

• Allow two people to work in the kitchen at the end of the workday (one primarily at sink/dishwasher and the other at prep station and then stove). Currently prep is done on the peninsula, which means that person is standing right in front of the sink but facing the peninsula making it impossible for another person to be cleaning things up from the day (i.e. bottles from daycare etc).

What we are hoping not to break:

• Adequate prep space

• Adequate storage

• Room to fit eat-in kitchen table (currently have a 36x60 rectangle table with seating for 6, know that we need to downsize from that with our current design; however, hoping we can still accommodate a 42 inch round table with seating for 4. The table is used daily by the 4 year old for art / play doh, etc. (it’s a glass top table) while dinner prep is happening. We don’t want to lose this function.

• View from front door – will the cabinets running through the bay in our proposed plan look strange?

• Traffic flow from foyer into family room – new table layout looks like we would be making this path smaller…is it too small?

Drawings:

Drawing 1 – Existing Plan

• We bought our house from the original owner, and were fortunate to have the original plan set. That said, these must have been working drawings because there are some significant differences between drawings and actual as built condition.

• Our house does not have brick veneer complete around the house, and frame dimensions were pulled off outside wall dimensions. With that, please note dimensions on our draft idea are correct.

• The original plans were drawn as a mirror image of our home. (Upload plan has been flipped, so sorry for the backwards text)

• We have also uploaded two photos showing the existing kitchen.

Drawing 2 – Initial Plan Ideas (Extra Wide Galley Kitchen with Dinette)

What we have come up with at this point:

• 28.5” lower cabinets with a 30” deep counter; all lowers to be pull out drawers except sink cabinet. Cabinet widths are depicted on the sketch.

• Upper cabinets only on the side with the range and refrigerator

• A 36 inch standard depth french door refrigerator with bottom pullout freezer drawer

• A 30 inch freestanding that looks like a slide-in (ex: GE Café) range with vent hood or should we do a true slide in?

• A small microwave to be housed on pullout tray inside pantry cabinet.

• A standard 24 inch dishwasher

• A round 42” table in the dinette area with seating for 4. Open to other table shapes if they would fit the space better.

• Will increase the depth of the foyer closet by approx. 2 inches in order to have the 116 inch kitchen width on the refrigerator/oven wall (it’s currently 2 inches shorter than opposing sink/dishwasher wall)

• Will change the bay to start the windows above counter height. They currently start 18 inches from the ground. We will make the same change to the dining room bay so the outside appearance is consistent.

• Open to suggestions on whether the existing windows above the new prep area / sink should be moved/expanded/resized based on our preliminary plan. Current is 2 24 inch windows, starting 22 inches in from the bay.

• The long span of cabinets/counter through the bay area for added storage as well as counter space for buffet style informal parties / large family gatherings realizing that these cabinets and counters fall outside of the main functional kitchen and we’ll need to thing hard about what we store over there. On a day to day basis we’re thinking fresh fruit bowls on the counter in the middle of the bay, the option for additional prep space for a 2nd cook, etc. We don’t currently drink coffee at home (the one coffee drinker has it at work on weekdays and grabs it out on weekends; however, wouldn’t be opposed to having the far end of this span as a little coffee station since we’d have plenty of room to have it out on the counter.

We are open to any and all suggestions on how to improve our kitchen and eat-in nook. The placement of the bay windows has us stumped with regards to expanding the footprint of the existing kitchen. What we've presented in our draft is the best we seem to be able to come up with on our own. We're looking to the experts here for additional ideas and guidance.

Existing Kitchen · More Info

Existing Kitchen · More Info

Existing Kitchen · More Info

Existing Kitchen · More Info

Featured Answer

sheloveslayouts

7 years ago

We DIYd our fireplace/chimney removal. We are not particularly gifted in the ways of DIY either.

We did a total gut renovation on the house and our structural engineer confirmed the chimney wasn't supporting the house in any way. The fireplace was pink and huge--maybe 4x7 footprint? Our house is single level with the chimney continuing to the basement.

We rented a drop box for the brick and an impact chisel from home depot to remove them. My husband started on the roof and removed brick by brick dropping them down the chimney where I'd gather them in 5 gallon buckets to take to the drop box. In all it took us a weekend and probably $500 in rental fees. The roof was repaired as part of our GCs scope of work in the remodel, so I'm not sure how much that cost, but it was a very simple patch

It seems to me that chimney and fireplace removal is totally unskilled labor if it isn't holding up the house. As such, it really shouldn't cost a lot.

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Comments (27)

User
7 years ago
I wish I could offer you advice but I virtually have the same setup as you. I will be seeking input in the next few weeks as well and look forward to others responses to your questions. I think you will find lots of good advice here!

Could you post a picture of the bay you want to change with the table?
User
7 years ago
Also, are you open to removing one or both bays altogether and replace with another window type? I assume the kitchen faces your back yard?
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csupdate
Original Author
7 years ago
Thanks! Here are two views. The first standing in the family room just inside the entryway from the garage/laundry/powder room looking towards the kitchen. The second standing in the foyer of the main entryway. Don't mind the tape on the floor - that's the footprint of the span of cabinets/counter we are toying with.

Existing Kitchen · More Info

Existing Kitchen · More Info
csupdate
Original Author
7 years ago
Yes, the kitchen does face the backyard. We are open to removing the bays and had discussed it as a means of having a longer run on that wall but then thought we could just do custom angled cabinets through the bay and keep the little bit of extra square feet it affords us. We haven't really thought about entirely different layouts with that wall squared off.
mgmum
7 years ago
Can you just do a straight run of counters and have the bay window with a big sill for herbs etc? That would eliminate the need for custom angled cabinets. Lots of people have that type of window. Usually at the sink, but it doesn't have to be. It could easily be a prep area, which is handy if you have herbs there and prep while watching the kids outside (when they are bigger).
csupdate
Original Author
7 years ago
I suppose that's possible but it would be a counter 56 inches deep for that span of 48 inches in front of the straight window. With it not accessible from the other side, it seems it would be impossible to reach the back 20 or so inches of depth to wipe the counter or anything.
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Anglophilia
7 years ago
You cannot put lower cabinets in front of a bay window - they will look terrible from the outside and will look...well...just "wrong". They will also be useless shapes.How often is there a conflict between the DW and the door to the range? I agree - it's close, but unless you move your sink to face the family room it's going to be. I would not do that - dishes piled up right in front of your living space. If you have not already purchased it, I would go with a counter-depth refrigerator - the others are just enormous when put in a small space.

Can you blow out the back of the kitchen and make it larger in that direction? Three to four feet could make an enormous difference. You would keep your same layout but with more room between things. The bay window could stay as well.

Why did you choose this house with so many things you don't like about it?
csupdate
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi Anglophilia - In our design we would be changing the windows in the bay to start above the counters. We'd still have three windows but they would be much shorter. We would not have the cabinets running in front of the existing glass. I agree that would be unsightly from the outside. We would also change the windows in the dining room bay to match those in the eat in area to ensure the view from outside is still desirable.

No appliances are purchased - we are just in the beginning brainstorming phase. We are currently thinking 30 in deep counters on both sides since we'd have plenty of room changing the layout into a galley. With this depth of cabinets/counter, wouldn't a regular depth refrigerator be advisable?

Blowing out the back of the kitchen could be possible but we'd need to evaluate the cost/benefit of an addition like that as the required egress window from the basement, the air conditioner, and exterior electric are all housed on that outside wall directly behind the kitchen.

The kitchen does function well for one person - just not two+. The kitchen cabinets are originals and we knew buying it we would want to update them at some point. What we didn't realize is that the design of the bay area would be problematic for trying to redesign the layout as part of the update. We've been living here nearly 4 years now and have had adequate time to note what works well for us and what doesn't...hence our list of "fixes" and also the list of what we don't want to break. As for the dishwasher/oven conflict I suppose it's not a conflict so much between those two appliances but that you cannot stand on the right side of the dishwasher to unload the everyday dishes into the cabinet above the dishwasher with that perpendicular run of cabinets so close. I find myself trying to squish one leg in there in order to more easily reach to put away those dishes. The cabinet is more to the right half of the dishwasher so it's difficult to reach the items I have on the 2nd and 3rd shelves from standing on the left.
razamatazzy
7 years ago
Could you rob any space from the dining room or living room?
sheloveslayouts
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Unless you want to maintain a separate formal dining room, I'd look into swapping the kitchen and the dining. A kitchen island requires a minimum of 12'9", so I was wondering if you could cantilever out a small addition between the two bays to gain the space for an island for your kiddos to sit at. You'd have room for the family room-dining room-L shaped kitchen with island across the back of the house which is so desirable right now.

I wasn't clear on what the scale of your drawing is, so this is a very rough sketch to show what I mean...
rantontoo
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Benjesbride came up with a clever and fairly cost effective way to add space and deal with the design challenge of the bays.

Just switching the kitchen and dining areas without the cantilevered bumpout means keeping the almost to the floor windows in the bay closest to the family room while putting in shorter windows in the dining room bay.

Do you know what walls are load bearing? It is hard to tell by your diagram the size of your livingroom, but can space in the living room be used to make the kitchen larger if you did switch the dining and kitchen spaces? If the current wall that the kitchen and living room share could be pushed back into the living room, does that leave enough living room space?
csupdate
Original Author
7 years ago
That is a very interesting idea benjesbride and definitely an idea we're going to think hard about. Thank you for helping us see outside the box!

Rantontoo- The living room is 18 ft 5 in wide and 14 ft deep. The wall separating the kitchen from the living room is load bearing so we're not sure how feasible it would be to steal from the living room.
sheloveslayouts
7 years ago
What is the depth of the bay?
csupdate
Original Author
7 years ago
The bay is 27 inches deep.
sheloveslayouts
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
I love your dog, by the way. Looks like a gentle old friend laying there.
sheloveslayouts
7 years ago
I played around with the layout a bit for fun. I guessed a on locations of some doorways and how much space you require for a dining set, but here's the gist of it.
csupdate
Original Author
7 years ago
Wow! That really changes what the kitchen can look like. Seeing this, now I'm wondering if we take your idea about kitchen layout but flip it over to where the existing family room is instead. The family room side is already 13 ft 4 inches deep as the load bearing wall on that side of the foyer entrance is set back 23 inches as compared to the load bearing wall between living and kitchen. That would bring kitchen to behind the family entrance from the garage. Thoughts? Would you put family room space next and leave formal dining where it is or put dining next and family room adjoining living room? The only thing that would have to be removed from the existing family room in order to make it a kitchen is a fireplace. Wow - lots of ideas spinning in our heads now.
rantontoo
7 years ago
It seems as if you are open to the idea of a smaller family room. I would do kitchen, dining area, family room. Having the kitchen next to the garage entrance would be a plus for carrying in groceries. Do you have a mud room entrance now?

Perhaps a more detailed sketch of the first floor is needed at this point with measurements and the location of fireplace, windows, doors, hallways and closets. Depending on the fireplace location, you might not have to remove it.
sheloveslayouts
7 years ago
If you're open to removing the fireplace, that would be a great kitchen location. I didn't suggest it before because most people wouldn't consider such a thing, however, we removed a large brick fireplace from our house and it made all the difference.
sheloveslayouts
7 years ago
I was thinking if the kitchen was in the present family room, maybe the present kitchen window could be turned into a swinging door for back yard access between the family room (on the right) and dining room (on the left)
csupdate
Original Author
7 years ago
Benjesbride - Do you mind if I ask for a rough idea of what removing the brick fireplace added to the cost of your project?

Rantontoo - the garage entry has a laundry room to the left and powder room to the right as you make your way into the existing family room. There is a closet in there currently but we want to switch that out for the mudroom locker look before the kids are school age with the plan that backpacks and such will be housed there.
User
7 years ago
@Benje, I don't want to derail the thread, but just wanted to ask if I missed your reveal? I couldn't find a way to PM you. Thanks!

P.S. You have tons of good ideas! One day would you like to do this professionally?
sheloveslayouts
7 years ago
Off Topic:

mobuddy-- Thank you for the compliment! Sincerely. I don't know if I'd like to design professionally some day. For now, Gardenweb fills my need for a creative outlet. If I have free time and there are no new plans to review I get kind of twitchy :-)

You didn't miss a reveal from me. Sadly, our interior paint in our whole-house renovation failed and we had to go through mediation, etc. last year. We have lots of peeled/peeling walls everywhere. The wall situation really took the wind out of our remodeling sails.
muskokascp
7 years ago
Your kitchen is very similar to what we had, except we had a small island and no peninsula. In the attached picture there were bay windows exactly like yours behind our kitchen table. It may be more than you want to take on, but we put an addition on the back of the house to open the entire area up and increase space and light. The dining room did not change - we just increased the size of the opening to it. Just for fun, to see what can be done, I included a few pictures.
csupdate thanked muskokascp
csupdate
Original Author
7 years ago
Well, we took a step back and thought hard about the L-shaped kitchen with island layout ideas from benjesbride as well as the notion of pursuing an addition from muskokascp and think we might have convinced ourselves to spring for an 8 foot addition. Attached is what we're contemplating. I think we've adhered to the various rules to create a highly functional kitchen but we are certainly looking for critique from the experts.

Close-up of Kitchen and Nook area

Kitchen Renovation · More Info

Panned out to see more of the 1st floor...
Kitchen Renovation · More Info

Red is existing back wall that would be demo'd. Yellow is new back wall 8 ft out from existing.
rantontoo
7 years ago
Since you are planning a different space, you might get more responses if you start a new thread.

I wonder about the fridge placement and keeping traffic out of the work area but do not see a good place to switch it to. Are you "wed" to the sink being under a window?