I listen and try to keep an open mind. You just never know, is my mantra. My DH is sort of going through this right now. He was experiencing pain in hips and groin. Went to primary doctor, nothing. Went to orthopedic doctor, had xrays...diagnosis arthritis. Remedy...cortisone shot. No thanks.

Heard from a client about a physical therapy center that centers on Fascial Counterstrain. It's working for him. He's had disc surgery 28 years ago and usually has some sort of pain. But....this place is working. 5 appts. So far. So when traditional doctors fail to help the pain, I'm glad there are holistic approaches to try.

I'm in the same boat. I just don't believe in any of that non science snake oil. I haven't a spiritual bone in my body, but I do have a few friends who are really into mysticism and natural healing. I certainly don't bring these topics up but when they do, I try my best to ask sincere questions. I never say anything along the lines of "I'll have to try that," instead I'll just leave it at "That's so interesting, when I have some time, I'll look into it." Which is absolutely true, I will look into it if I think about it. I just try my best to not be patronizing.

I am apparently less nice than you. I would be honest. Why waste time on a conversation that will be fruitless for both? Surely there are better things to talk about for the two of you. I would say something like "I know this is important to you, but I just don't believe in in personally." Then change the subject to something you can both talk about genuinely.

Merry Christmas!

OMG- that article from The Onion just really ticked me off. How dare that jerk of a brother posit that his sister will probably "kind of like doing it." GRRRRR.

Anyway that is not your question, you want to know how to handle conversations about stuff with which you disagree. With my mom, a humorous approach that puts the laugh on me can help me keep my sanity. 'It's so cool, that you are interested in that. You know me and my logical brain, I think its a bunch of hooey." Tell me again, why you think eating cinnamon will ..."

That said, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Holistic medicine refers to an approach. Any type of practitioner; allopathic, oriental medicine, naturopathic, can use this approach. It treats the person as a whole, instead of treating an illness. My children's pediatrician is a board certified pediatrician with a holistic approach. Naturopathy focuses more on wellness instead of illness. A good naturopath has gone for extensive graduate schooling and done an internship and residency just like an allopathic doctor.

localeater, The Onion is satire :) The brother is purposely ridiculously annoying. When you have a chance, take a minute to read other articles. Some are very funny.

I don't recommend being insincere. Instead, you might open up to their perspective on it by appreciating that it's important to them and be glad that they want to share ways to make you healthier...it's a sign of caring. (I too am science based, but am open to other remedies because western medicine has often failed me where other medicines haven't...I figure there's a lot of stuff from health traditions that have been untested and some of it may prove useful. We know a lot of it is malarkey...but not all of it.) One thing a nutrition teacher taught me is that there is so much conflicting information out there and health is so individualized, that we each have to find our own truth. So perhaps a sincere, "I'm glad you find this useful," would be better.

But if the conversation gets to be too much, just have a change of topic in your back pocket to something else you think you'd like to talk with them about. For example, now that so much of my family is gone, I often wish I'd taken the time to quiz them more about their backgrounds and their history and their memories of other families and friends and traditions. Now that they're gone, so is much of our family history.

d_gw- I knew the article was satire but sometimes these things cut a bit close to the bone IYKWIM.

I don't have any specific suggestions, robo, but if it helps any, regular MDs are often more open to other methods of treatment than you might think. My endocrinologist and pulmonologist, for instance, normally agree on nothing at all other than the fact that I am the most difficult patient they have when it comes to making prescriptions, because of my weird reactions to all sorts of unlikely things.

So I was greatly surprised a couple of years ago when they both separately recommended the same two doctors to me: a highly-regarded allergy/asthma specialist, and the local practitioner of traditional Chinese medicine, whom they both respect almost as much.

You could guide the conversation where you want it to go and away from where you don't want it to go. Cheetohead is both horrifying and entertaining, always conversation material. Or the economy.

I love to talk about my garden, and could deftly wrest the conversation away from holistic plants by focussing on daylilies and roses. Some daylilies cost $1,000 and up, that's certainly good for some conversation.

I listen and ask questions about how people experience their beliefs, then I change the subject to something more neutral. They probably don't want to hear about everything you believe in either and the nature of human interaction is that you can't control everything 100% of the time.

Localeater, that's why I found the article funny. The onion hits a little too close to home sometimes!

MTN, pretty funny approach but I don't know if I'm bold enough to try it!

if I had to probe deeper I think what I find most annoying about our interactions is that both people offer a lot of advice based on their beliefs and the advice is, in my opinion, not sound. Plus who wants to get advice on her/her dog's health all day long? But I know it comes from a place of caring.

I came off a little more closed to alternative approaches than I really am. I definitely think there are things that work that have not yet been discovered or "proven" in conventional medicine. And I really do believe in mind-body connection for health, and for patients to feel listened to and valued is probably more than half the battle, this is something conventional medicine seems to be very bad at.

I think for progress as a species informed scepticism and the ability to evaluate evidence and assign merit to it is extremely important. I think all science, not just economics, should actually be labelled dismal. Good science typically consists of a breakthrough or incremental progress, which other people then try to disprove in a variety of ways. And rarely are results so promising as you seem to see reported in the news, with the exception of that new Ebola vaccine which seems very exciting, maybe something good will come of the s**t show that was 2016.

You're not going about trying to just select evidence to prove your point because if you just go by examples, you can find an example for just about anything to seem to work. E.g., one of the ladies was telling me that a raw diet is undoubtedly best for dogs because one dog she saw on the internet lived to be 25 on a raw diet. That's great that one dog lived that long but where is my randomized controlled trial to compare lifespan and cancer rates between conventionally fed and raw fed dogs? And it has to be randomized and controlled, not observational, because there are likely to be huge differences between the type of owners that choose to feed raw and those who choose to feed for example kibble.

If I were you, I would stick with the "that sounds interesting" approach, as you are not likely to change their minds given how devoted they are to their subjects. And then change the topic. :)

It sort of sounds like every conversation I have with my mother-in-law. I just smile and nod and say "uh huh, uh huh." It's not really a two-way conversation. She doesn't really want to know what I think or have to say, and has not once in 12 years ever solicited my opinion, so I just listen to the same commentary or family stories holiday after holiday and don't offer anything in return. It used to bother me quite a bit that it's her talking AT me, and I'd fruitlessly try to share my thoughts or opinion, but now I just don't bother. It's just for a few hours, thankfully, generally on a holiday or someone's birthday. Now if I had to see these folks weekly, I would probably have to have some different coping mechanisms up my sleeve. Like wine.

Here's my solution; "Time to play Scrabble!"

I now have some relatives arriving at my house saying "Time to play Scrabble!" when they walk in the door.

Merry Christmas!

ML

How about, "I'm really glad you've found something that works for you."

I wish my DH could run interference for you. He has this amazing talent for listening to people he doesn't agree with, making hilarious comments (not insulting) and ends up having everyone laughing together - not at one another. I have been watching him do it for 30 years and still haven't learned how.

A related talent he has is switching the topic without you noticing. I'm getting better at this and it might be something that would help you, too. Great aunt Rose says, "Dr. Oz gave a cure for exactly what ails you." You say, "Remember when your son Tony won that big award? I was just thinking about that the other day."

Why talk about naturopathy or holistic medicine at all? Talk about music, movies, or any other non-controversial topic.

My DS's go to statement is "How about them Mets!" Not that he cares about the Mets; it's just a conversation turnaround.

I just try to find another subject- can you ask about other familymembers (kids?), pets, etc without that getting introduced as a subject?

The fact that you are thinking ahead is good. Personally, I see no way out for you.

Be prepared with something that you would like to share as well.

You sincerely care about these two women. At least these two have an interest in something! I have someone in my life who just gossips, or talks on and on literally about nothing. (Mine is a relative.)

I take a deep breath and let her talk! Give your friends fifteen minutes or so. Then say something like, 'Thanks for sharing that with me, it certainly gives me something to think about." Then , "Oh that reminds me, or I'd like to share this with you......." you segue in with the topic you prepared so that you can change the subject.

As a scientist myself, I just don't participate in conversations that are obviously biased with a person who isn't interested in real discussion. Unless they ask or if they are saying something I find morally reprehensible, in which case I might say, "I can't support that" or "That's not what I believe" and just leave it at that. I wouldn't worry about engaging someone in conversations where their mind and my mind are totally closed. Waste of energy and not a recipe for success.

What I see among my friends is that some are anti western medicine, some are opposed to alternative healing. I know someone who won't use a clothes dryer because the negative energy gets in the clothes and that's bad for you. The wind puts positive energy ( negative ions) in the cloth and that's good. Why should we argue about this? She's a wonderful friend and she wants the best for everyone. I want everyone to eat 5 servings of veggies and 3 servings of fruit every day no exceptions and no artificial flavors colors preservatives,hormones, trans fats, etc. I think we could avoid plenty of problems by getting these chemicals out of our food supply.

I like my Chinese- Western doctor. She uses the best of both traditions. Some of the herbal medicines don't have the side effects that pharmaceuticals do. I say try the cure that harms you the least. For me, that's eating healthy everyday and getting 8 hours of sleep and moderate exercise. My friend adds the line dried clothes and crystals. No proven science there, but what gives you joy is also healing.

To friends/family I often say, "that's not my area of expertise, and I try to practice evidence-based medicine, but realize even placebos work for some conditions and people."

Alternate version, "Show me the evidence, from a respected peer-reviewed journal."

To patients, I am more diplomatic.

Hi - late to the conversation, as usual!

So, how did it go?

I do agree that the polite responses & changing the subject as quickly as possible are best. No need to express your true opinion & start a row or hurt feelings.

& nothing wrong, IMO, w/ honestly saying, "You know me, the eternal skeptic. I'm just more comfortable sticking w/ mainstream science."

Consideration, honesty & respect are the 3 keys to good etiquette, after all.

Well, I was over dramatizing the pitfalls. Because new baby and 94-year-old grandma were both there there was lots to talk about besides holistic stuff. Which I should've anticipated. However the information in this Thread will really help me going forward as these are consistent topics of conversation. We also got, as you can imagine not necessarily my idea, a gift certificate to a local naturaopath for one of the ladies and she really appreciated it so much, it was heartwarming.

as for the relative utility for suggestions in the thread, I am more drawn to the gentler and indirect approaches rather than the more direct approaches to talk to these particular people, I think it's just a matter of how we communicate in my family which is not necessarily in the most direct or honest fashion. I am, in my opinion, the most straightforward person there and it can be taken as hurtful at times so I try to really tone it down. Tact is the watchword I guess.

I'm glad it ended up working out. The choice of gift certificate was especially thoughtful. I think it shows great respect-- which is ultimately the point of this topic. As you and others have said, when it's not a question of morality/humanity, it's wise to simply respect that the other person cares or values the information they are sharing. You listening and asking questions doesn't mean you respect the opinion, but that you respect the person who holds the opinion.

Hey Robo, glad it worked out. IN our family.... well, lets just say significant political/religious differences and the solution by mutual agreement was to simply not go there. Re: your contentious topic - if you look more closely, you MAY find some common ground. Not all that is considered "alternative" or wholistic medicine is mumbo-jumbo. As a science based person myself I would invite you to look spefically into effects of diet, nutrition & stress - its become pretty mainstream that inflammatory diseases have a lot to do w/diet (as much if not more so than genetics). Nutrition (or lack of) gets short shrift in medical establishment - no pharmaceutical co. is going to sponsor research on the effects of no-sugar/ no transfat diet. Doesnt mean that people cant find signifcant relief that way. A lot of us get into nutrition/alternative medicine by simply trying things out on ourselves and then observing the results.

Maddielee, that could work, but personally I usually don't want to play Scrabble.... I want to converse with folk I only see once in awhile.. Scrabble is for when you see folks regularly....

Maybe sort of a friendly way to say "on this topic, let's agree to disagree". And then move to something else. Or, considering the topic of holistic medicine, talk about dietary concepts, as Current Resident said. I'm a Immunologist by trade (retired), but we might find some level of common ground discussing foods.

Then again, this Christmas I got hit with a comment that was really beyond the pale - rude behavior the one guy was proud of having done this fall. I mean, REALLY rude and uncalled for, and yes, bigoted. I was way too stunned to reply, and would have refrained from talking with him at all again that evening, but there were only six of us total present. I wanted to lash back, when I finally caught my breath, but I didn't, for the sake of my friend, the hostess.