I am getting more impressed with summer romance by the day. Look at how many bloom and the size if this plant in zone 4!! Yes, I only planted it last year, but I really impressed with this one.

It smells wonderful, too.

I just moved last fall. Planted 16 own root from Chamblees. Didn't spray anything.
The First Crush did the best. I have two. Both are healthy, both got
alfalfa tea, and one has two new thick basal breaks. Love this rose. I
always had bad luck with hybrid teas, but not these. The ones doing the worst are twilight zone, and love song. The two love song are bs magnets so far. The twilight hasn't 100% defoliated as bad, but growth on both are poor, though they do bloom on those tiny diseased canes. I've started trying neem on them.

Thanks for that info witchygirl! Even though I removed a lot of First Crush from my best locations, they seem to be doing well without a lot of attention here in both sand and clay.

I'm not sure if Khalid is still checking in on this thread, but I would add Abraham Darby, Evelyn, and Just Joey to the list of those that are doing super on own-root.

Kelly, how did your Louise Odier do this summer in terms of BS? I'm considering her.

I thought I'd update that 1st Crush is doing much better since transplanting and has not been plagued with BS. The blooms have really improved as well. All mentioned above continue to thrive. Those new this year that are doing extremely well in terms of BS and vigor are Gruss an Aachen, Peggy Martin, Cl. Clotilde Soupert, Cl. Pinkie, Mme. Alfred Carriere, and the Hybrid Musks Belinda, Penelope and Bubble Bath. I don't feel I can judge a couple yet, such as Lavender Lassie and Ballerina, although both have improved immensely since being planted in the ground. I have many still in pots and they struggle, but we'll see how they do once they're in the soil.

Fingers crossed I finish my deer fencing this weekend and start raking some leaves!Then I hope to focus on felling some trees where I want my arbors to go. : )

Yea! for you, Vaporvac! Been there, done that, and what a difference it made. I hope you find that the deer fence and opening the garden up to more sunlight will bring surprises and success you didn't even expect. My roses jumped from the gnawed off stumps the deer would leave behind to 4' and even 6' the first year they were not constantly being deer pruned. And the sunlight will be such a bonus! You'll have renewed enthusiasm for your roses next spring.

Thank you, FRM! I didn't finish the fencing, but I got most of the broken posts replaced. I actually have a split rail fence lined with green chainlink, but some posts rotted and it's only 5' tall. I'm adding taller pieces of wood and running netting to make it ~7'-8'. This is only on one side; the rest has a 7' tall metal fence hidden by a hedge and also a wooden fence 6' tall. They've jumped the latter trying to escape, but I've never seen them enter through there as it's a steep incline. We'll see. I'm going to leave something tempting as an experiment.... Zaide has plenty of growth to sacrifice. ; ) My main hold up has been finding staples to fit my electric staple gun!

Anyway, I thought I'd post a link to a conversation over at the Antique Rose Forum, since they list many DAustins that do well own root and a few that seem to benefit from grafting.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4991265/in-praise-of-the-prince-and-others-no-longer-offered-by-da?n=45

Even the shorter fenced areas will deter them at least a little. I hope they don't bother your garden during the winter as much as the growing season. By spring, you'll have a good start at repairing or replacing the broken posts and a good plan as to how to proceed. Hope you find those staples! I hope Zaide doesn't suffer too much in the mean time.

Well, the netting on the more open exposed area was a complete failure! Tomorrow I have welded metal fencing that I'm attaching instead so we'll see how that goes in keeping them out! It wasn't a total waste of time since I'm using the same wooden posts to attach the wire. It seems to be working in the rest of the yard; fingers crossed! The broken posts have all been replaced so at least the split rail is solid again. That was a lot of work that I initially doubted I could do, but slow and steady won the race.

P.S. I posted a new thread if anyone wants to comment with their best no-spray roses for BS.

Own root 1 gallon Carefree Celebration is the fastest rose bush I ever seen grow here...Instant large rose bush...(4x4) in just 2 seasons.....Own root 1 gallon Miracle on the Hudson grows decently fast here also...

When a rose doesn't perform well on its own roots, what does that specifically mean? I have access to a cutting of a rose that isn't sold any more by the nursery, but was said to not do well own root. Does that just mean it takes more time to perform well, or is it something more?

DL It usually means it can be on the wimpy side, and needs the extra strength from a more vigorous root. Most of mine are own root. All but Peach swirl, and Sugar moon, and I think own root are bushier than grafted roses in the long run, because they throw out a wider set of basal canes. I also like not worrying if a cane is root stock or not. I wasted my first year of rose growing babying Dr huey, and hating myself and roses because of it. I gave up for a while, then started googling if there were any roses that grew on their own roots. (A lot actually)

Lady of Shallot is very vigorous, and quick reblooming even in part shade. It gets lots of water

I can tell you that our own root (Kordes) PLUM PERFECT and we have two own root Fiji (Kordes) roses and they are growing like SNAILS here in zone 6!

All started out as one gallon roses:

Fiji on the left is in its 3rd season...Right: In its 2nd season...

PLUM PERFECT IN ITS 2nd season...Yep dwarfed by Marigolds.,...LOL

I would not recommend either of these roses own-root in a cooler climate anyhow... I suppose they might do ok in warmer climates???

I don't think it's the climate, Jim. We got our Plum Perfects the same year and mine is going gang busters. And, believe me, you're the better, more knowledgable gardener! I think you got some wimpy plants to start with. Or, they were so badly affected by all the virus problems you had the last couple years, they just don't have any umph left. I know, 'once bitten, twice shy', but I'd try again with a new one if you'd really like to grow Plum Perfect. I don't know anything about Fiji, never having grown that one.

Although I haven’t posted on the Organic Rose forum, I enjoy reading many of the discussions. I’ve particularly appreciated Kahlid’s (the OP’s) many comments and pictures.

It seems he has not posted here in quite sometime. I found no mention of him leaving this forum. I hope all is well. Does anyone have any info?

Nothing. I know he was moving into a new house and he is a very demanding job. It was a period of some small drama so maybe he gave up then. I posted on his other sites hoping he would respond but nada.

Hummm flowersaremusic...Is your PP grafted or own root?

I made a thread on the other forum about Plum Perfect its growing slow for others also but fast for some...lol...Who knows...

Heres the thread:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/own-root-plum-perfect-rose-progress-dsvw-vd~5447835?n=51

flowersaremusic...Is your Plum Perfect grafted or own root?

Own root, Jim. Bought as a 4" band from Northland, same year you bought yours. I bought another one this year at Walmart. I'm sure it's grafted, but since I plant all my roses deeply, I don't even remember checking.

Jim, from the photos, your Plum Perfect has caught up and looks robust and healthy this year. I took this photo of mine this evening. It blooms more continually than in flushes. I just deadheaded this one a couple days ago, and it still has a lot of buds.

bump this up.

Andrea (flowers): Love that pic. of your yard and Plum perfect .. very pretty bush & much prettier than my 2 Lavender Crush (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) which become leggy & bloom on top and I don't care for its small blooms nor scent.

About Face is my best own-root out of 10 bought this year, the scent is similar to Versigny but it's more generous in blooms than Versigny.

I planted a lot of own roots this year in Zone 9a Houston. The best performance in growth and even blooms were the two Harkness roses called Margaret Merrill. They grew really well and little to no disease.

Hi there! I’ve just purchase two Spirit of Freedoms on their own roots and I was wondering if anyone has a mature own root SoF? I’m nervous as they are my first own root! I was also considering getting Alnwick on own root.

Spirit of Freedom is very vigorous as own-root in Khalid's zone 9b Pakistan. Re-post the list compiled by Khalid, precious info. that's hidden way up in his thread:

Khalid Waleed (zone 9b Isb)Original Author

Here is the updated list...as on 19 March 2017.

Zone 4 & 5 (Input from Straw, Kelly Tregaskis Collova & flowersaremusic) All in heavy clay.

• OGRs: Apothecary's Rose, Black Prince, Celestial, Darlow's Enigma, Errinerung an Brod, Ghislaine de Feligonde, Ispahan, Margo Koster, Magna Charta, Mrs. John Laing, Roseraie de l'haye, Scabrosa, Stanwell Perpetual, Therese Bugnet,
• Hybrid Tea / Floribunda / Grandiflora: Bolero, Cape Diamond, Classic Woman, Ingrid Bergman, Little Chap, Liv Tyler, Outta the Blue, Wild Blue Yonder,
• David Austin Roses: Golden Celebration, Princess Alexandra of Kent, Spirt of Freedom, Tamora, Tess of the d'uberbervills, Wise Portia
• Shrubs: Oso Easy Fragrant Spreader, Peppermint Pop, Quietness,
• Climbers: Nahema

Zone 6 b (Input from Vaporvac):

• OGRs: Cecile Brunner, La Marne, Margo Coster, Tooth Fairy
• Hybrid Tea / Floribunda / Grandiflora: Dark Desire, Fire Opal Kolorscape, Iceberg, Summer Romance
• David Austin
• Shrubs: Carefree Beauty, Pink Drift, Red Drift,
• Climbers: New Dawn, Don Juan

Zone 7 (Input from noseometer,sandy soil)

• OGRs: Old Blush, Marie Pavie,
• Hybrid Tea / Floribunda / Grandiflora: Bolero, Fabulous, Iceberg
• David Austin Roses: Abraham Derby, Alnwick Castle, Bishop's Castle, Evelyn, Munstead Wood, Sonia Rykiel, William Shakespeare 2000, Winchester Cathedral,
• Shrubs: Pure Perfume,
• Climbers: Eden,

Zone 9 & Zone 8 (Input from Lavenderlace in mostly sandy soil and Khalid in fast drainage, fluffy soil:)

• OGRs: Black Prince, Gruss an Teplitz, Madame Isaac Pereire, Reine des Violettes, Souvenir De La Malmaison,
• Hybrid Tea / Floribunda / Grandiflora: Beverly,Earth Angel, Ebb Tide, First Crush, Francis Meilland, La France, Grande Dame, Lagerfeld, Lemon Spice, Mirandy, Savannah, Scent-Sation, Singin' the Blues, Twice in a Blue Moon, Violet's Pride,
• David Austin Roses: Golden Celebration, Heritage,Jude the Obscure, Sharifa Asma, William Morris,
• Shrubs: Midnight Blue, Magnificent Perfume
• Climbers: Crimson Glory, New Dawn

The above was compiled by Khalid back in 2017. The italics of type of soil are noted by Straw.

Thank you so much! I truly appreciate it. I can’t believe it’s almost finally time to plant it! I’m making my own arch for it out of cattle panel. Very comforting to hear that it’s vigorous on its own roots :) I’m not interested in fighting suckers!

Sarena: Spirit of Freedom was the BEST BLOOMER at Chicago Botanical Garden with 5,000 roses. It had more blooms and leaves in spring flush. Second best was Souvenir d.L. Malmaison and Gertrude Jekyll. How do you make your own arch out of cattle panel? That's a great idea !! I have 2 tall Lavender Crush that topple over during heavy rain.

Vaporvac: I inserted in Italics the type of soil each person has in Khalid's compilation of vigorous own roots. I'm not sure what type of soil you have, so I am checking with you before putting in the info. Please inform since the type of soil one has determine the vigor of a particular variety of own-root. THANK YOU.

Jude the Obscure is VERY wimpy as own root for those with dense clay, but Jude performs well for those with sandy soil (like Lavenderlace), or fluffy & loamy soil.

The types of soil and climate determine the success of a particular own root.

Most Austin roses do well in my high rain and dense black clay soil, except for Jude the Obscure, Heritage and Lady Emma Hamilton (these require good drainage). An excerpt from below link:

"Sandy soils drain better than soils that are clay rich. In general, the smaller the soil particle size distribution, the slower it will drain. Sometimes silt may have the same particle size distribution as clay, but clay will retain more water for longer periods of time than silt."

https://soilsensor.com/articles/soil-textures/

Below link has good pictures of types of soil:

https://wonderfuldiy.com/garden-soil-guide/

Below link has a good pic. and description of silt soil: "Silt soils are similar to sandy soils when dry except that their particle sizes are much smaller resulting in a feel that is soft to the touch. When you roll silt between your fingers, dirt is left on your skin with a smooth texture, kind of like flour. As a result of the smaller particle size, silt soil holds and utilizes water much better than sandy soil."

https://getlawnstar.com/blog/what-is-topsoil-the-pros-cons-of-each-type/

Holy cow that is great news to hear! That’s why I picked it, most climbers seem to have three or four main flushes but I really wanted a climber that had some flowers on it at most times! Plus the flowers stay on the vine for so long! I can’t believe it’s going to be discontinued soon. We actually have never built one either and we are following this tutorial https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oeTnZr-GV5c we are super nervous but excited! We plan to use wood panels to support it instead though to make it more attractive. We shopped and shopped for an iron arch but they were all so flimsy or super expensive! And we really wanted one that was extremely wide so that horizontal training is a breeze! I really hope it turns out well. I just love the look of flowers on metal/iron arches it’s like over time it just blends in and it just looks like a huge flower formation!

Thank you for that you tube. Would love to hear from you about the scent of Spirit of Freedom. The one at Chicago Botanical Garden didn't have any scent due to their loamy soil and tons of rain that spring. But others with different soil & drier climate report good scent on S of F.

Oh man I hope I luck out then! I’m in zone 7a Rockvale TN and it definitely has rainy times but isn’t too bad. And my soil is amended clay soil so I really hope it ends up having a smell! I’ll keep you posted. I’m also planting Saint Cecilia and I know that will have a smell!

You'll be in heaven with St. Cecilia scent. I love mine with mostly old rose and a touch of myrrh. But my St. Cecilia is wimpy as own root, the plant is always pale. I wish I had bought mine as grafted. I have dense black clay.

Oh my goodness she is beautiful!!! My dream rose! But that is not good news because I’ve only found her on two websites and they are both own root!

I have Spirit of Freedom. It is not a good bloomer for me.....

However, I have another friend here in Florida who grows it and it does wonderful! In fact, the reason I got mine is that I enjoyed hers so much. I am not sure if mine does not bloom because of nutrients or if it is because I am on the water and she isn't. I get gale winds just as she starts to put out her growth.... I wonder if it could be the salt....

Straw do you know if she likes it dry or wet..... or what I could do to improve her to make her bloom more. When I say she doesn't bloom very good, I mean I get one flower every six weeks..... She is a big plant. I have had her for eight years..... She never crawled and then leaped.... she is still crawling at least in the bloom department.

Sharon: you are right about sand and salt which affect Spirit of Freedom. An excerpt from below link: "Sandy soils near beaches retain less water and nutrients than less porous soils and an excess of salt spray carried in the wind prevents most plants from absorbing water properly. Salt damage may manifest as leaf burn, leaf drop, or plant death."

https://www.thespruce.com/salt-tolerant-plants-for-beach-and-roadside-landscaping-4767375

The above link recommends Rugosa Rose (likes sand and salt-tolerant), also single-petal flowers like daylilies, or tiny leaves plants.

It takes A HUGE amount of alkaline minerals like calcium and magnesium to form zillion of petals in Spirit of Freedom. Rocks like river pebbles, pea gravels, and red lava rock (high in magnesium, potassium, and iron) can be mixed in the top area of root zone. Acidic rain will corrode rocks to give minerals (takes at least 1 year).

The above takes too long, here are ways to give Spirit of Freedom minerals like calcium to form zillion of petals, ranking from the fastest:

1) Dolomitic lime or Garden lime has 20% calcium and 10 % magnesium. Sold cheap $10 per 3 lb. bag. Plus watering with sulfate of potash NPK 0-0-50 for high potassium.

2) River canal soil, this is silty soil (in between clay and sand). Silty soil is VERY FERTILE and rich in all minerals. It's found where rocks decay into slippery & muddy minerals in waterlogged areas.

3) For potassium & calcium & magnesium, HARD WOOD mulch releases more potassium than SOFT WOOD mulch like pine. But hardwood mulch decomposes too slowly compared to bark mulch (outer layer of tree).

You could also try a product I’ve been hearing rave things about called “Great Big Roses” it’s supposed to help roses take in more nutrients and water! I’m hoping it saves my own root Saint Cecilia haha

Straw I actually just found Saint Cecilia grafted on fortuniana rootstock!! Am I better off going for this one? Not sure how that rootstock does in Tennessee but I don’t want mine to struggle with its own roots (though I was also scared of dealing with suckers haha!)

Sarena: I would take grafted on Fortuniana over wimpy own-root ANYTIME if I live in a warmer zone !!

There's a study which showed that grafted-Fortuniana gives the most bloom, next is grafted-on-Dr.Huey, and last is grafted-on-multiflora. Very Last is wimpy tiny own-root. Fortuniana is a spreading and deep root which gives way more blooms. Own-root St. Cecilia has tiny root, even smaller than my tomato plant.

Own root is best to reduce the size of GIGANTIC climber like Lavender Crush (ungodly tall as grafted-on-Dr.Huey and topple over). Own root is best for cold-climate which can't grow grafted-on-Fortuniana. Own root is best for poor drainage clay which I can't dig deep for Dr.Huey long, long roostock.

Welp sadly I did a little more research on my near by rose society page and they say fortuniana will take quite a bit of winter protection and that own root will not. We do get about three snowfalls so I don’t think it would be happy for me. ): Multiflora is the preferred rootstock in my area and I just can’t find it. If I ever do I’ll snatch it up. But I’m going to try my hand on the own root, I hope it’s not a mistake. Long ago roses says her own root Saint Cecilia is her best flowering Austin! So I have some hope. I have amended red clay soil. If only it didn’t get cold here. Though I do love the snow.

Serena, I have heard that fortuniana can handle some winter, but the first couple of years it will need that extra protection. Fortuniana has shallow roots, but it can and eventually make deep roots..... k and m roses say that after several years it will develop a tap like a pine tree.... I can atest to that. When I had a flood that killed many of my roses, when I had to dig them out, the 10 year old roses indeed had big taproots, while the younger ones did not..... I do not know how long it takes to make those tap roots though, but once the tap root is developed I believe it should hold up in winter areas.....

Sorry for the delayed response!

Well this is good news thank you. I had hoped to go own root and not winter protect. Mainly because I’ve never done it and I don’t know how difficult it is. But if it would be healthier I am strongly considering it. :) I will say though i dont have any experience with grafted, will i be fighting suckers from the graft constantly?

Sarena: if you have a LARGE garden with plenty of land, then grafted St. Cecilia would be good. But I have a small garden, and Lavender Crush (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) steals water and nutrients from the small own-roots next to it.

I have rock hard dense black clay, so St. Cecilia is pale as own-root (got choked by my dense clay). But you have fluffier & more nutrients red clay, so St. Cecilia might not be pale. My clay is rock hard so grafted is less likely to sucker, but I took me 1.5 hours to kill a Knock-out grafted on Dr.Huey. I found its roots extending 4 feet away to steal water from my annual flowers.

It's impossible to plant any pretty flowers around roses grafted-on Dr.Huey. But I can plant pretty flowers next to my own-roots without worrying about water being stolen or invaded by Dr.Huey or Fort-rootstock. Below are Christopher Marlowe and Pat Austin, both are 11th-year own-roots:

Thank you so much straw this really really helped me and cleared my mind! I am planting this rose in a small area and I don’t want it to take over. I did originally want to go own root after hearing many horror stories of fighting host suckers. And I’m really trying to keep this as low maintenance as possible! So the allure of not worrying about over winter protection also calls strongly to me. I’m going to try my hat at own root, so I can take the worry of suckers out of my mind. I’m just over here hoping and wishing with all my might that I am lucky enough to grab a band when orders open soon! Dreamed about this particular rose for ages. (Pink peony shape with decent black spot resistance sign me up!) Thank you again for all the wonderful info.

Also your roses are beautiful. I love seeing your pictures!

Also Straw maybe you could try planting some Penstemon near dr Huey! They love a dry environment and can go with no summer water. It can all prosper in low nutrient soil!

Here’s a favorite!

https://www.bluestoneperennials.com/PEEB.html

Sarena: Thank you for that link. That's so gorgeous .. blue Penstemon. I wish I'm in zone 6 to 9 to plant those, but my zone is 5a. Nurseries here don't carry Penstemon, not hardy here. Below is a link where own-root roses' performance are rated, esp. those from LongAgoroses:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6243904/ratings-of-scents-vigor-for-own-root-roses-and-longagoroses#n=69

Oh man i should have looked at your name my bad! Well at least your summers are always very nice and mild. ;) I’m over here in a sun hat, spf 50+ umbrella, and a neck cooler! I’m a very pale lady who burns bad haha. Thank you for that link I’m going to read through it now!

I had penstemon in my garden in Story and they came back year after year. It was zone 4 but they were planted up against the house and got buried under all the ice chunks that came sliding off the roof, so no chance of exposure until winter was firmly over.