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danielinthelionsden

Trying to identify this shrub

So there's a small shrub growing beside our house. I'm really enjoying the bright red fall leaf color. But I don't know what it is. I'm trying to figure out what sort of pruning it needs. I'm thinking I'd like to prune it back quite a bit as it obscures the view out of my home office window pretty severely. I've seen a few of these around town and it looks like they get pretty large. I've even seen one trained up as tall as a house. I'm hoping it can kinda train it down into more of a bush.

Any ideas?






Comments (48)

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    7 years ago

    Burning bush, Euonymus alatus. Considered a highly invasive species across much of the US. Depending on your location, removal might be better than just pruning. And there are a fair number of other, well-behaved shrubs that can offer red fall color.

  • cecily
    7 years ago

    Yup, it's pretty for 7 to ten days each year. It's a dull, coarse shrub for the rest of the growing season. Keeping it small would require frequent pruning. You'd be better off choosing a smaller shrub.

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  • indianagardengirl
    7 years ago

    Daniel, I agree with Cecily. You will be pruning this thing forever to try and keep it small. It's only attractive for a few days. It's terribly invasive, seeding around with abandon. Unless you're totally in love with it, look for something with a smaller scale, and interest for other seasons.

  • Daniel Central IN, Zone 6a
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    Oh no, and I just planned a Hostas under this past spring because it's like the only place that's shaded enough for it to grow. Find all these invasive species on this property. First the Autumn olive, now burning bush. So disappointing.

  • Sara Malone Zone 9b
    7 years ago

    Gardening is a process...it's not a pure science. It's a mixture of science and art and nothing beats trial and error and perseverance. Think of how much you have now learned - from making mistakes. You learn much more from mistakes than successes. Make some friends locally with some folks who have made even more mistakes than you have. You'll be an expert in no time!

  • Embothrium
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Burning bush has a clean appearance that in combination with the often amazing autumn color makes it a standout among deciduous shrubs. But like certain other Old World kinds that remain prevalent in North American commerce, are therefore likely to be encountered in plantings it has become a nuisance plant in the East - where environmental conditions are generally similar to those of its native area.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    No reason to remove it just because it's invasive. If you enjoy it, leave it be! It is your landscape, therefore your choice. The thought that removing invasive species from landscapes will stop the problem, is ridiculous. Look at my scenario:

    You have 1 burning bush, there are 2 more on the side of the road near your house, and many more in other landscapes and natural areas.

    You remove your burning bush

    The others still keep producing seed, others who have them still get to enjoy them

    The problem doesn't go away, but stays the same

    You don't get to enjoy your burning bush any longer

    As for pruning, you can formally shear them while dormant, or coppicing, which is what I prefer.

  • Sara Malone Zone 9b
    7 years ago

    Shear a euonymus alaternus? Oy...

    And just because you don't eliminate the problem by removing yours, why would you want to contribute to it?

  • Embothrium
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Size control of these is best accomplished by cutting them down to near the ground periodically, during winter. They do not have a branching structure that lends itself to short heading cuts.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    It's euonymus alatus. What does it hurt by contributing to it? There is no stopping this problem now, it is too far gone. Of course, if you are really set on replacing it eastern wahoo is a nice shrub. Embothrium, I agree. That is why I suggested coppicing, but you can shear with ok results.

  • NHBabs z4b-5a NH
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    It would be a battle to keep it reasonable size even with severe pruning, even without the invasiveness issue. IME removal will save you and near neighbors massive amounts of weeding out volunteer seedlings. Replace it with something less boring and more appropriate to the spot available.

  • Embothrium
    7 years ago

    One I cut down low periodically takes about two years or so to get back up to where it is time to do it again.

  • glt47
    7 years ago

    Euoymus alatus 'Compactus" compactus lacks the corky twigs prune by thinning out the older stems close to the ground

  • Embothrium
    7 years ago

    Not sure that method would work well with a shrub of this branching habit.

  • Daniel Central IN, Zone 6a
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    So speaking of "Compactus" I was doing a little more reading on this and at least one article suggested that the "Compatus" variety was not invasive like the normal one. Anyone know if that's true?
    Another thing I read was that they don't develop the wings on the stems if their in a shaded spot. Well I guess this isn't full shade, but the it's against the north side of the house so no sun in early Spring/Late Fall and a weeping mulberry and the porch shade it early morning and late afternoon. So partial shade maybe?
    Anyway I was also doing some reading that High Bush Blueberry is a good replacement, with showy fall colors......and I do like blue berries. A blue berry might make for a better size too though I think they need full sun. Still thinking on this one.

  • Mike McGarvey
    7 years ago

    I had a 'Compactus' that self seeded quite a bit. For that reason I removed it.

    I think it could be invasive here over time. Both it and the species. Not yet though.

  • NHBabs z4b-5a NH
    7 years ago

    Blueberries do grow best and fruit best in full sun. More importantly, they need acid, well-drained soil. What is your soil like?

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I say leave it be. It's not causing the OP any problems. Just get off of it already. Invasive? Yes. So what? It will seed? More for me I guess...

    When I get an albizia julibrissin volunteer, or autumn olive, burning bush, etc. volunteer, I am usually happy about it.

  • Daniel Central IN, Zone 6a
    Original Author
    7 years ago

    Well, I was hoping there might be something similar out there that's not quite so large. Although I was reading a little more on the blueberry and it's still a 6 to 10ft shrub so that's probably a little big too. This one just frustrates me because it really blocks the view out of my office window. But then if I move my desk to the other side there's a huge weeping mulberry that block the view even worse from that side. Who ever planted these things just wasn't thinking about that sort of thing I guess.


    Regarding the soil since the question was asked. I don't know the exact Ph but I'm pretty sure it's at least somewhat acidic. There are other acid loving plants such as Pin Oak on the property and they are doing great. It's a bit poorly drained though. The surface is a loomy clay, really nice soil actually, loaded with earth worms. You can't turn over a shovel without finding numerous worms. But it was farmland some 20 years or so ago. I assume the heavy farm equipment caused a layer of slightly compacted soil a couple feet below the surface.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    Well, no matter where you dig here, there are no earthworms. However, everything except fruit trees do good.

  • cecily
    7 years ago

    Daniel, look at the brazelberries series of blueberry. They stay smaller & have especially pretty foliage. You enjoy an edible landscape and you'd be happier with something smaller in the long run. Underplant it with strawberries to double your pleasure :)

  • NHBabs z4b-5a NH
    7 years ago

    There are a fair number of kinds of half-high blueberries and if you do a web search for that term you will find a number of cultivars. With a blueberry you will want to plant on a bit of a mound with a good amount of coarse organic matter mixed into your clay soil so that they have good enough drainage. Coarse organic matter should be well aged, not fresh - bark mulch or large chips that have been around for a while would work.

  • arbordave (SE MI)
    7 years ago

    At the OP's location (central IN) it's probably unlikely that blueberries would grow well without plenty of soil amendment (as NHBabs alluded to) plus acidifying fertilizer.

    Maybe consider Fothergilla - flowers in spring, compact habit, and nice fall color.

  • Embothrium
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Amending small planting areas for long term plants like trees and shrubs is no longer recommended. Doing so was being seen in organized tests to be counterproductive by the late 1960s.

    Independent garden centers here have starting displaying whole ranges of new blueberries with compact growth habits or persistent foliage. However if soil on planting site being discussed on this thread is thought unsuitable for these the most reliable approach would be to plant something that would be expected to be locally adapted instead. Otherwise a special bed of some size should be made by either excavating and replacing the existing soil or placing the different (replacement) soil on top of the existing soil and planting in that, without blending the two soils together.

  • Mike McGarvey
    7 years ago

    What about loosening compacted soil and adding organic material like woodchips in the process? That's what I do. Then I contour the soil in the beds, and where the lawn will be and till again. I get the soil where the bed and lawn meet which results in a drainable swale.

  • Embothrium
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    It's a matter of scale. If a prepared area is of some size the water movement issues caused by the amended area being given a different texture by the amending are present only on the edges of the bed.

    In addition to amending of small areas having adverse effects on how water moves into and out of these areas there is also the problem of organic matter decomposing over time, the soil settling into its original condition. This is another way that amending of planting sites for long term subjects fails - these end up having to live without the conditions created by the amending being present anyway.

    Preparation and maintenance of small amended beds for flowering annuals and annual vegetables is different because these are short term plants with small root systems. With these it is comparatively easy to amend the entire potential rooting area for the plants. And the plants are replaced every year so soil areas dedicated to them can be easily accessed and re-worked.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    If you are really set on replacing it, there are other alternatives that won't require soil amendment. For example, a forsythia gets the same nice red fall color and beautiful yellow flowers in early spring. They take well to formal shearing or coppicing for size control.

  • laceyvail 6A, WV
    7 years ago

    Have never, ever seen a forsythia with "nice red fall color." Nor do they take well to formal shearing or coppicing.

  • NHBabs z4b-5a NH
    7 years ago

    I like forsythia, but not the shape of the smaller types that would fit under the window, and I think you could do much better in this spot, though my forsythia do have nice (not spectacular) fall color with chartreuse-yellow and dark purply-red shades.

    I have Fothergilla Mt. Airy, and would agree with ArborDave's recommendation based on spring flowers which are effective for about 3 weeks with large bright chartreuse buds followed by lightly honey-scented, fuzzy white flowers and then the late, brilliant fall color. It's fairly blah in the summer, but no more so than the original Euonymus. Mine are staying around 3'-4'.

    Look at some of the smaller red-twigged dogwoods. Several of them have good yellow/gold/orange fall color (Cornus 'Arctic Sun', 3'-4' and C. 'Midwinter Fire', 5'-6') as well as ornamental winter twigs that are a combination of red and gold. Kelsei is supposed to stay 2'x2' with red fall color, but I have no experience with this one. Because the twigs have the best color if you cut some of them to the ground each spring, the size of any of these stays reasonable, though there are some varieties that would still get too large for your space.

    With a shrub that is a bit boring in summer like Cornus and Fothergilla, I often grow a summer-blooming/hard prune clematis into it for summer flowers once the shrub has gotten some size.

    You could check out some of the smaller Hydrangea paniculata varieties such as Bobo, Little Lime, or Dharuma. They are rock hardy, and depending on the type will start blooming in my garden between late June and late July and then bloom until frost, with the blooms starting light green to white and then slowly progressing to shades of pink in fall. There is sometimes yellow fall color, but it isn't reliable or particularly bright.

    Regardless of what you plant, plan to place it so that the branches don't touch the building and you have enough room between the house and the ultimate width of the shrub to get in for cleaning the window, painting, or doing other maintenance on the house. The current shrub is too close.

  • cecily
    7 years ago

    This is interesting... I've grown forsythia in several climates and have never had red fall color. About an eighth of my current backyard is occupied by a mammoth forsythia which dropped its leaves in one day after a hard frost. Sorry for the digression.

    Since the shrub in question is next to the deck, you need something with three season interest - don't choose a shrub that's boring in summer when you're most likely to be out there admiring it. A hydrangea paniculata is a good thought.

  • NHBabs z4b-5a NH
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    I was mostly thinking about the view from the office window, so was trying for winter interest as well as during the growing season. I don't see a deck reference (was that in another of Daniel's posts?), but the clematis growing up into a shrub takes care of the summer boredom.

    I don't know that all forsythia color well, but this one always has though I don't know whether it's the site it's in or the variety. I don't know the variety, and it's way too large for the OP's spot, regardless.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    Forsythia always turns a dark, crimson red, most years. I have used shearing and coppicing with good results.

  • Embothrium
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Mix of colors including purple as shown in above photo is what I usually see being produced by forsythias here. For a situation near a building I would choose or at least include evergreen shrubs so that the winter aspect isn't entirely just sticks with architecture behind.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    I always see a dark crimson red, and very seldom see anything like your picture above. Of course, mine are not named, but seed grown.

  • floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK
    7 years ago

    Forsythia rarely shows much colour in my climate. If it does it looks like NHBabs' picture. It's a striking enough shrub in flower but a bit of a workhorse and not a very imaginative choice.

  • Mike McGarvey
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    It's a far left field shrub for me, and hardly worth having in a normal suburban yard. It takes up too much space for it's value.

    I've never seen it in a professionally designed garden.

    I enjoy it in early Spring in other people's gardens, looking it's best with a minimum amount of pruning. Very seldom though, is Forsythia given enough space to grow unhindered.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    I have planted it when landscaping for clients. I prefer to shear mine.

  • Mike McGarvey
    7 years ago

    Clients usually wanted me to design a low maintenance landscape. They weren't gardeners, that's why I was doing it. They would usually bring up low maintenance as the first priority, even before budget and privacy. Why would you install or continually maintain a low value shrub that needs regular shearing? Your first obligation is to the customer, not your maintenance business. Don't make the common mistake that some designers, who are also gardeners, make of putting their garden in their client's yard. Gardeners can handle more maintenance than nongardeners.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    I typically maintain the landscapes that I design, if I wasn't doing the upkeep then I probably wouldn't plant the forsythia. I usually don't hear the "low maintenance" request, but if I do, I won't plant forsythia or anything like it.

  • Embothrium
    7 years ago
    last modified: 7 years ago

    Multiple different kinds of smaller growing forsythias are on the general market now. The days of the kinds that produce a 10 ft. fountain of growth being pretty much all there is are over.

    Apart from it cutting part of the bloom off shearing forsythias not situated in formal layouts and settings is a bad idea because it makes them out of context, same as shearing any other kind of shrub or tree not part of a geometric design.

    Low maintenance mantra is dominant in the market for new landscaping here these days. At the same time formal shearing of existing informal plantings on both commercial and residential properties has become pandemic. The way I see it companies doing this are mowing the lawns and mowing everything else as well.

    In keeping with this a decades old informal garden across the street from me has been getting maintenance sheared for some years now by company current owners hired. Before that previous occupants had some of that done also, but more here and there - resulting for instance in what should now be a Stewartia pseudocamellia of some height and presence being instead a tubby, flat-topped tuft of whips like a giant fez.

    And so on, throughout the property.

    Perhaps an assumption that formal shearing is a normal maintenance routine practiced in all settings is a lot of what is behind many requests for new installations being low maintenance.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    There are shrubs that should be sheared, and shrubs that are never sheared. When I say "shearing" I don't mean it in the way most people do. It is more like topiary pruning.

    ==>>>https://caldwellhg.blogspot.com/2016/11/how-to-properly-shear-shrubs.html

  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    7 years ago

    "There are shrubs that should be sheared, and shrubs that are never sheared."

    I'd beg to differ!! The 'should be sheared' category is restricted to formal hedging, knot gardens or topiaries. And some classifications of Japanese pruning techniques (Tamamono). Not on individual shrubs or trees that don't fit these requirements. Too many unskilled pruners 'shear' as oppose to 'prune' because they don't know the difference or intentions behind these techniques and because it is much faster to shear (the reason so many garden maintenance and 'landscape' companies follow this practice - time is money). But that doesn't make it right :-)

    Don't Shear.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    Plant Amnesty are extremists. While I don't agree with tree topping, I have no issue with formal gardens. I have never sheared a tree (is that even a thing?).

    Shrubs that I shear:

    forsythia

    boxwood

    abelia (depends on look I'm trying to acheive)

    loropetalum (depends on look I'm trying to achieve, and cultivar)

    barberry (depends on look)

    knock out roses (Yes, roses)

    Nandina (usually only 'firepower')

    Gardenia (depends on look)

    camellia (depends on look)

    burning bush (I prefer coppicing)

    some types of holly (depends on look)

    There are more, I just don't feel like listing them all right now.


  • gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
    7 years ago

    "Extremists"?? Hardly!! Just a a very well-recognized organization that is trying to enlighten gardeners on the correct way to prune.

    And the only shrubs you list that I would ever consider shearing are the box and holly (likely only Ilex crenata, Japanese holly) as these are often used for formal hedging. Shearing is typically NOT considered an appropriate pruning technique for arching, vase shaped shrubs like barberries or forsythia or abelia. And why would anyone shear a flowering BLE like camellia or gardenia? That makes no sense.

    And some trees can be sheared into formal hedges - yews, Leyland cypress and arborvitaes being the most common.

    I have to tell you I fear for the gardens you are pruning/maintaining, Logan. They can't have a very pleasing or natural look.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    I do maintain some informal gardens, that I do not use shearing in. I maintain formal gardens, and they look very nice. Nothing but compliments. I am sure if you seen my landscape in person, that you wouldn't be displeased.

  • maackia
    7 years ago

    Can you show us through pictures? I would be greatly interested to see your work.

  • Logan L Johnson
    7 years ago

    I would be glad to! I will start a new thread in the shrubs forum for all of you who are interested.