If your applying the right chemical to match the deficiency it should show an improvement in 2 o 4 weeks. Are you applying it as a foliar spray? Foliar sprays are the quickest method to address a deficiency. Does it also contain a surfactant? I did not see it on the label. Surfactants GREATLY help. - Silica

Considering how many trees you have Laura that's a pretty tiny number of ones with minor issues so hang in there :). I'm still recovering from my chinotto murder shame myself so I completely understand the frustration.

I have a couple with leaf deficiencies too but I just haven't had time to deal with it consistently yet. Im interested in what yours look like can you post pics when you have time?

Thanks Hobby! Silica, I do not think it has a surfactant. Can I add it to my mix when I spray? Here are pics of the problem trees...

The jug from Southern Ag contains all the micros you are concerned about, and should work. The picture of Saint Teresa (of Lisieux) Lemon looks to be an iron deficiency, and should clear up with treatment. I did not see any Manganese deficiency on the Page mandarin. For the Magnesium deficiency on the Meyer, you can use both a soil drench of MgSO4 (Epsom Salts) and a foliar spray. However, I really don't think the tree is still deficient in Mg. The MgSO4 you soil applied and also the foliar spay with the Southern AG , the deficiency should have been corrected. For a severe deficiency the leaf symptoms on the older leaves can last for a while, sometimes perhaps a year. Your question about a surfactant---you can add it at any stage. 1 level teaspoon gallon. - Nice trees. - Silica

Thank you Silica! I will do what you say and wait patiently. I suspect you are right about that Meyer...those are very old leaves (from the nursery about a year ago) and the new leaves are a beautiful dark green. It is growing and blooming all over. I'll wait a week or two and reapply the Southern Ag mixture. The page I think is Manganese based on what you have said that it appears on new leaves.

Laura, I looked once again at the picture of the Page Mandarin, and I certainly do not see any deficiency caused by a lack of Manganese. - Silica

I don't see any either..What I see are just temperamental trees in need of a good kick in the .....If you are not over watering which can happen even in the 5.1.1 mix, and if you are using Foliage Pro and vinegar, and if the temps are stable, I mean above 55 at all times, then your trees should correct themselves in time.

I would not be afraid to alternate with a different fertilizer such as Romeo From 4 Winds and or Miracle Grow for acid loving plants, or with that Pete's or is it Jacks that everyone is chatting about..Use vinegar at every watering...

P.s..If your temps are above 55 and you are getting plenty of sunlight, they should be fine. It can take a VERY long time for citrus trees to repair themselves after the damage has been done in past..Trust me on that one)

Thanks Mike. I will keep doing what I am doing and keep a vigilant eye. I just wanted them to be at their best health before bringing them indoors even if it is a few weeks out for me. We've had a few nights at 51, but the days are in the 60s and low 70s with temps holding steady for the next 10 days at least.

Laura, coming from my friends brain and I..I looked at the pictures & really can't say exactly what it is, but MANY deficiency issues are caused by cultural conditions or adding things to the plant's nutritional supplementation they don't want/need. Habits like dosing with 'tonics', Epsom salts, or other products aimed at supplying more of something already amply available can be a problem. When roots are suffering, chemical messengers tell the plant to concentrate growth on roots (roots become powerful energy sinks) and nutrients that would normally go to foliage are diverted to roots. If there is/are fruit on the branch, leaves on that branch often show nutritional deficiencies until the fruit, also powerful energy sinks, are removed.

Using Foliage-Pro is a super choice, but it doesn't guarantee nutritional perfection if the grower is shooting himself in the foot via habits that limit the plant's ability to function normally, which is another way of saying 'better go back and make sure all of the plant's basic cultural needs are being met in a manner the plant approves)

Laura- I totally get it , even after regular repeated FP application 2 of mine got Nitrogen deficiency so I switched to Miracle grow for acid trees (miracid) n they recovered. 2 more which I thought was nutrition deficiency turned out to be root rot (since they were big 10gallon plants i didnt bareroot n report like i usually do )which I repotted n applied fungicide both seem to be recovering .

it's sometimes frustrating that with the amount of care we take these problems still crop up .

All of what you say makes sense Mike, but if I see these deficiencies, I need to try to correct them. It's just that I feel I've done things the best and most correct way I can. Dev, isn't it frustrating???! I have only ever given them FP until these deficiencies appeared. The ES and supplement above do seem to help a little - and slowly. I have also started giving them the new Peters fertilizer. I can tell you that the page, ST, and sudachi - especially the sudachi - look greener. Last feeding I mixed the Peter's with the supplement. I do think they are improving...only time will tell. Dev, so you like the MG?? I wonder if our trees get tired of the same diet...kind of like us eating pb&j every day...gets dull after a while ;-)

Laura, I hear yah..Been there done that. You will learn with time what keeps them green and continually healthy...After all of what I did that you are doing, the only thing that I ended up needing was the Foliage Pro and vinegar...I found it it was not the fertilizer, Foliage Pro that prevented them from being green and healthy,. but many other factors that did not allow my trees to take up nutrients properly, usually my fault or that of the weather and temps or bugs. So many variables....Kudos to you for trying and I hope that in the end, you only need one good fertilizer to feed the needs to all of your plants..)

You know what I am going to do? Not sure if it will work or if I get a direct answer, but I am going to ask what 4Winds feeds theirs...I am sure they keep them in a perfect environment and under the perfect light conditions, but I am curious as to the fertilizer...I am beginning to think that keeping happy with perfect temps and sunshine has a great advantage no matter what we use..Look at Brian's trees and he use just Miracle Grow..

Please, keep us updated like you have been. I really enjoy everything you do and say here!! Good night and see you tomorrow

Thanks Mike...let me tell you, one of my lightest trees came like that from FW. It still has not sprouted, although it looks a bit greener. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to know what they use. Good night!

I have not read thru all the above posts, but I would say plant establishment and healthy roots will go a long way to eliminating the appearance of deficiencies. In other words, it may be a root issue more than a deficiency.

I have not study the above replies but i may add that if a tree is not responding to fert.. treatments it might be that your soil has too much salts which inhabit the uptake of more fertilizers, what to do,simple flush the hell out of your soils( hope your soils drain well). Salt built-up is common in container culture. When i mean flushing i mean flushing.!!!

Persimmonbob..Exactly right! That is an issue in bagged mixes that have too many fine particles and one needs to flush salts at least every sixth watering, especially in the winter months when we can not freely water them and when they are held captive to tap water...

I think Laura has hers in a mix that does not require salt flushes..

I tend to agree with Dave..There is an issue with the roots for some reason, and maybe they are focused on building themselves up and the expense of the canopy for now..No potted tree should need foliar feeding if the roots are functioning properly...I have never had to use anything like that with the mixes I use, or the fertilizer regimen..

Thank you for all your comments guys. Mike, Dave, and Bob, I have thought about what you guys have said and it all makes sense. I equate it to how most medicine works these days...treat the symptom, not the underlying cause. High cholesterol? No problem...take a pill....instead of treating the underlying cause of the illness, they just treat the symptom. I guess in this case, the ES and mineral supplement are like meds. I guess what I find puzzling is that I think I've done all the right things. My trees are in 5-1-1 and I've fertilized with FP regularly...flushed them out routinely to avoid salt build up. I can think of three potential causes: 1) like Mike said, perhaps the canopy growth has outpaced the root growth and the leaves are not getting enough nutrients, 2) perhaps I've overflushed and flushed away too much of the FP, or 3) there is an issue with the roots. That is theoretically possible, but not likely. Although I did not remove every bit of the dirt the trees came in, I did remove as much as I could. The ST in particular, has been repotted twice since I got it. It should be happy. I think next year I will repot the Page, but it is too late this year. I will say, they do look better. I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I thought about them as I swam laps today...gave me something to think about besides keeping count ;-)

If the deficiency symptom that Laura is still seeing after her treatment is the magnesium deficiency, and is still appearing on some of the old leaves, then that is to be expected. With magnesium deficiencies it can take some time before the old deficient leaves totally re-green. Sometimes, depending on the severity of the deficiency up to a year. I very strongly doubt Laura's deficiency causes No.-1 and No. -2 which she lists above has any thing to do with anything. You can flush as much as you wish, causing no problem, as long as you re-fertilize once again soon enough after the flushing.

Laura - I switched back to FP , the Miracle Gro Acid worked well but then it was fall and I reduced the fertilization schedule .

PermissonBob/Dave/Mike - I agree about the root issues , everytime the suspected nutrition deficiency doesnt recover on fert treatment on checking soil I have seen root rot , now lesson learnt , even for the biggest trees that I buy try n remove as much of the nursery soil and repot in 5.1.1

That southern ag is great.I use it and have for years.you should see results in a week.follow the direction on bottle.

Thanks Silica, Dev, and Glenn. I notice the biggest difference in the sudachi. It already looks much greener. I'll keep you guys updated!

Laura, how are your trees looking? Can I see? I love your concept about treating the cause and not the symptom...I had to come to that realization after I lost Dozens of trees and plants..Hundreds of dollars worth of Citrus Trees..You would not believe all the Epsom Salts and Iron treatments I still have that I have not had to use since coming here...Money down the drain.....I am glad you are very smart savy!

I will post pics tomorrow Mike. I do see a big change in the sudachi and also the page. The ST looks a tad better.

If a plant has some type of a deficiency, the cause is, of course, because it is deficient in a nutrient .

Silica, a nutrient deficiency in a plant is a symptom, not a cause. The cause may be, for example, some type of adverse condition causing root malfunction or it may be the lack of a nutrient in the soil or container mix.

The cause is because the plant is lacking in some nutrient, this is termed a deficiency. A root malfunction, can indeed cause problems no doubt, however most often its a mineral deficiency (nutritional), or to a lesser extent pH, both of which are rather easily resolved. If indeed the tree has a root problem, finding out is surely the easiest and quickest to determine. All one needs is 15 seconds. Simply slip the tree out of the container and take a look. If nothing is found, then put the tree back in the container, and give the tree what is lacking.

Root malfunction and sub-optimal pH are causes of nutritional deficiencies which are the symptoms.

I bring this up because some people may be tempted to treat the symptom (nutritional deficiency) without determining the cause. I agree it is easy to eliminate a root problem but this should be done in all cases before applying supplemental nutrients.

Agreed Vladimir. Even if the soil is full of nutrients, if the roots are unhealthy or the ph is off, then the tree will not be able to use those nutrients and therefore become deficient (showing the symptoms we often see). I think what Silica is suggesting is that most commonly it is the soil that is deficient with healthy roots. If that is the case, then it is an easy fix of providing the correct nutrients. However, this may not always be the case and if someone has trees that exhibit those deficiencies, they should make sure the tree's roots are healthy and that the ph is within the acceptable range. If those two things are correct, then treat away.

Why do people try to make things more complicated than they really are? It really is quite simple. At my stage of life I don't need all this.

It is quite simple.

Silica, it's science -- I suggest whenever you post, cite a scientific (trusted) source. I noticed you plagiarized something in an earlier thread. It's these types of offences that make it hard for me (an academic) to take much of what you say as fact without questioning it. Vladimir is certainly correct. In humans, the virus is the cause and the symptoms are the cough, runny nose etc. A deficiency is a symptom, which can have many causes, such as humans encounter many viruses. If we treat all viruses with the same approach we are surely doomed. Why should plants be any different?

This is a little different so I'll add it to the discussion. I have lots of different hobbies and growing citrus is one of them. I am not an expert and can't devote all of my time to troubleshooting. If fertilizer and Epsom salts don't bring results, I give my trees a shot of Garrett Juice. It's a concentrate containing Apple Cider Vinegar, Compost Tea, Molasses, Dehydrated Seaweed, Liquid Fish, and Water. The guy (Howard Garrett or "The Dirt Doctor") who developed it is from the Dallas, Texas area and promotes organic gardening. I just looked to make sure it's still available and it's available on Amazon. In addition to using it as a problem solver, I try to give newly planted trees a shot of this stuff in the soil and as a foliar spray several times to help them get going. It's pricey as a commercial concentrate but you can make your own with a recipe the "Dirt Doctor" provides on his website.

Thanks John! I've never heard of the stuff but I'll certainly check it out!

John, is this it? Medina Garrett Juice Plus Qt. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MYGLV0G/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_yN1dyb02750AQ

That stuff is almost as expensive as gasoline in its mixed with water to instructions strength. After shipping cost i believe it is.

Yes, that's the stuff.....I bought a case of the quart containers 4-5 years ago, gave one away and still have one bottle left. poncirus, I agree it's expensive pre-made. I don't have the free time to make it myself so it's worth it to me. The guy who makes it offers a recipe on his website for folks who want to make their own....look up "recipe, garrett juice" and that should get you a recipe.

Garrett juice has several organic ingredients as sources of micronutrients and it's also supposed to encourage beneficial bacteria and fungi in the soil. You could begin composting if you have space and if you have enough suitable organic waste to recycle. I don't have a big enough household to generate near enough compostable material for the number of trees I have. Some stores will let folks pick up their waste produce but most I have asked have not had good experiences with individuals wanting to do this on a long term....dirty buckets, flies, inconsistent pickup, etc.

Where is the evidence (not anecdotal) that Garrett juice does what it supposed to do?

Vladimir, you might surf the DirtDoctor's website and see if he has posted data. I doubt folks who don't want to mess with the organic gardening concept would care much for Garrett Juice but I think the ingredient list and the assay label link the product to sources of nutrients that people generally believe in and work hard (composting for example) to achieve. Folks who want to grow organic would appreciate that the product has apple cider vinegar, not white vinegar. Apple cider vinegar (obviously in very low quantities) is supposed to promote microbes, white vinegar is not known to do that. Vinegar is not just vinegar. You may already know that but it's not a commonly known truth. Howard Garrett's view (based on a lot of his research if what I have read on his website is true) is that we use commercial fertilizers, herbicides, fungicides, and insecticides that often harm the beneficial microbes in the soil....bacteria, fungi, nematodes, worms, etc. Those critters help compete with disease-causing bacteria, fungi, and nematodes and all of them excrete waste which provides a steady flow of nutrients from organic material in the soil and in the things we put around our plants, and they help aerate the soil and help mobilize micronutrients that may not be in the right form for plant uptake. Garrett Juice contains liquid from compost, molasses, seaweed, and other ingredients that are meant to feed the micro-organisms and the tree itself. Notice the N-P-K is quite low as compared to commercial fertilizers.

I don't have data but the concept seems to be very much in line with our own digestive systems. Some antibiotics will wipe out the natural micro-flora in our intestines....so we are encouraged to eat yogurt and other foods that help return the good bugs that keep us healthy. I can get non-organically grown fruits in stores that I have to wash before I eat. A part of my pleasure in growing fruit in a more natural setting is that I get something I believe is better.

Thank you for your response, John. I hope you understand that, being a scientist, I cannot accept claims of efficacy without evidence. And I must admit that claims coming from someone calling themselves the "Dirt Doctor" make me suspicious.

John, if you head over to the container forums, you will see why the experts don't recognize 'organics' in potting mixes as compared to the earth/ground or grown bedded plants...No one wants worms in their pots or can reliably depend on organics in containers...It is completely two different worlds.. If your container over heats in the very hot sun just one days, they have all been zapped to death..

Heat, Cold, compaction, type of water we use and other factors would make organics in containers unreliable unless they are in constant contact with the 'earth' like partially buried 24 hours a day.The n you could kind of put your potted plants on the same level as 'raised beds' ..I suppose those that grow in southern areas might gain some advantage over us that must rest our pots on cement, floors and other non ground areas for most of the year..

You would have to use a very rich fine mix moisture retentive soil mix to even start to support the kind of organic bacteria, fungi, nematodes, worms, etc. Then you are talking about sacrificing the open porous mixes we are using that must maintain their structure, integrity and open porous spaces within a pot for roots to breath..

But, I would most certainly try that stuff on my in ground plants! It sounds like great stuff.

Mike

LOL! I'm a scientist too Vladimir and I appreciate the desire for hard data.

Mike, I agree potted plants probably don't have the size to support a fully organic regimen....but I would propose that the "juices" from compost could be very beneficial when treating a perplexing problem. I have earthworms in some pretty large pots with aloe plants...and they have a bad habit of climbing out of the pots at night and wandering around on the concrete floor of my outdoor shower. That probably wouldn't go over very well in a more domesticated setting :>)

planting in containers in good contact with ground beets container plants alone by a long shot. I do both and I am setting things up for bottomless containers for everything I grow.

6b Steve

I am just catching up on the reading. Interesting stuff guys. Mike, you are a wealth of info for container gardening (any gardening for that matter ;-). I understand what you are saying. I also understand what John explained, although I would not want worms crawling out of my containers that are now in my kitchen...lol...that would not go over well! Steve, I envy your setup and makeshift greenhouse. John, what kind of scientist are you? Vladimir is a biologist and I am more of an environmental/air/health effects gal with undergrad in geology. Biology or botany are not areas I know much about, but I am learning quite a bit from all the knowledgeable members of this forum.

Oh my! I'm in awe to be in such educated company!

My undergrad is Biomedical Science...a kind of foundation for lots of different medical careers. I switched over to aquatic biology in my graduate work...kind of like marine biology except I work in fresh water. Sounds like your focus is on the air permit, mine is on the water and wastewater permit side....but thankfully I'm not regulatory.