Your welcome. My roses, Mary Rose, Princess Anne, Double Pink Knockout, and Love & Peace are still producing. I cut one everyday & bring it in the house and place it at my bedside so that I can become very familiar with it's color anf fragrance.

Portia: Is your zone 5b? How did Princess Anne survive winter? And is yours grafted on Dr. Huey, or is it own-root? I'm tempted to buy Princess Ann but I'm not sure if own-root can survive my zone 5a winter. Also does Princess Ann have any fragrance, and how big is the bloom? Thanks for any info.

Zone 6 they say lol. I bought Princess Anne this yr as a bare root and planted it last of all (4) DA I got. PA has a nice fragrance, but indistinguishable from Melody Perfumee which I also got this year. I ordered Kordes: Lion's, South Africa, Posideon, Amadeus, Pink Martini, Jasmina, and another from Palantine.

My 2nd yr roses are: Milano, First Prize, and Love & Peace. I have a field PEA & hairy vetch growing up Milano which really grew tall in August. First Prize was. Beautiful in early spring and got eaten alive in June/July:(. Love & Peace was most beautiful in September.

Princess Anne formed great clusters in the summer and was a beautiful bright fushia pink. It is more mauve now and no more clusters:(. I got it as a bare root. Eglantyne bloomed only once:( Tranquility twice. The both formed octopus canes like Gertrude:(

I also have Graham Thomas, and Tea Clipper, and Kordes: EarthAngel, Fuji, Dark Pafume, and Mme Annesitte. I got those (4) from Chamblee's and have been VERY disappointed in their advice that I need to feed my roses that are mulched in clover. I ended up cutting the cane that had brown at the bottom and Mme Annisette bounced back, but still never bloomed? The roses they sent were so small. EarthAngel formed (4) long canes and bloomed twice before forming them. Fuji bloomed twice, but hasn't grown much. Dark Parfumee bloomed (3) times, but did not have much of a fragrance.

Thank you, Portia, for sharing honest and valuable info. about the many new roses you have. I have Poseidon as own-root, very vigorous, but the blooms need to be cut and brought inside before they open up, the petals turn ugly brown with rain !!

I also grew 2 Austin Eglantyne as own-roots .. both refused to bloom, until I gave it SOLUBLE fertilizer NPK 20-20-20. Chamblee nursery is right about giving own-root roses SOLUBLE fertilizer, own-roots are wimpy in 1st year and can't produce acid to break down solid minerals in soil .. they are like babies which need to be "spoon-fed" liquid-food, or SOLUBLE fertilizer, either $$$ fish-emulsion, or cheap MiracleGro for roses.

Own-roots won't bloom the 1st year like Grafted-on-Dr.Huey. Dr.Huey is a HUGE root-stock which produce plenty of acid to extract nutrients from soil. But Own-roots will get bigger 2nd year and beyond, whereas Dr. Huey declines as it gets older, unless the soil is VERY LOAMY AND ALKALINE.

Princess Ann is known as a good-bloomer, that's why I want to get it as own-root. The stingy bloomer like Eglantyne and Gertrude are best as GRAFTED. Many thanks for informing me about the scent of Princess Ann. Melody Perfume is also on my wish-list. Which one do you think looks nicer in a vase? Which one do you like better? Melody P., or Princess Ann? Thanks.

Also the soil in Western PA is known as acidic, do you have alkaline clay, acidic clay, or loamy soil? Palatine roses are grafted on Multiflora, which is best for high-rain & loamy soil and acidic region. Austin roses from David Austin, USA, are grafted on Dr. Huey, which is best for alkaline clay & less rain like California.

PA is Most beautiful when it clusters, shows a beautiful pink, and smells devine. However it smells the same as Melody? I don't like the color or form of Melody thus far. I got it at the end of season on a bogo. The other rose was Love. It's beautiful, but NO fragrance:(. I placed it on a prominent corner to remind me of God's love for me. Thank you for informing me. Do you belong to ARS? I joined on the local level, not realizing that I wasn't joining the national ARS:( So I didn't get the book:(

Portia: I don't join ARS since ARS promotes Bayer spray. I would rather spend my time in Organic Rose with people like Khalid and you who have a deep respect for God, our Creator, and for God's creation: the earth and our environment. My focus in Organic rose is to please God, the Creator, who make beautiful nature & roses for us to enjoy. And it's NOT pleasing to God to spray chemicals to destroy the bees, which work hard to bring food to our table.

I have a hunch that your soil is neutral to acidic, since you can smell the fragrance on Princess Ann, an Austin rose. Thank you for the info. about Melody Perfume versus PA. Re-post what I wrote in HMF today when someone asked me about fragrance being less in sandy soil:

"Also chicken manure helps with strong scent. My friend with the best-scent ever on Munstead Wood: she raises her own chicken and fertilizes her roses with chicken manure plus fish-emulsion (for deep colors). My Pink Peace grafted has light scent for 2 years, until I used "Coop Poop" no-odor chicken manure with NPK 2-4-3, the soluble phosphorus and copper in chicken manure gave Pink Peace a good scent, but Pink Peace grafted CAN NEVER measure up to Pink-Peace as own-root.

Another person noted the same as I do: when the soil is alkaline, the fruity and myrrh scent is strong. But Grafted-on-Dr.-Huey secretes more acid, which lessen the fruity and myrrh scent. Which explains why many people, including me complain about Pink-Peace-grafted with weaker scent, but Pink Peace own-root smells wonderfully strong: fruit-loops and butter-cream frosting.

One year I dumped acid-fertilizer on Mary Magdalene and took away its fabulous myrrh scent. Plus it broke out in mildew !! After I scraped off the sulfur/acid, and watered with my pH 9 tap-water, I got the myrrh scent back.

In contrast, the Old Rose scent is stronger when the soil is more acidic, and as own-root matures, it produces more acid, thus the Old Rose scent is more noticeable in the 2nd and 3rd year.

The Old Rose scent is strongest with acidic rain water, and folks in CA with alkaline-tap water don't notice much scent in Austin with old-rose scents. A friend in CA could not smell anything from The Dark Lady, but that was the best smelling rose at Chicago Botanical Garden after lots of acidic rain." StrawChicago

It's clay which I amend with cover crops. I didn't even have to water my roses bc of the clover. Many of them I planted behind pearl millet. I'm told that the soil is acid. I need to have it tested, or text it with my Hydrophonics ph tester. Is your soil clay too? I also planted lots of buckwheat this summer.

Portia, so you don't grow the clover with the roses, you put them on top?

I also have EA and Mme Anisette new this year from Chamblees also. EA had two small flushes but MA was so healthy and vigorous but not a single bloom. I am hoping next year will show some blooms, but I may have to move it to a more sunny location. Pink Enchantment from Kordes did not bloom at all its first year, but this year 3 flushes.

EA & MA I planted 5/28/16, then 6/7/16 the clover germinated around it. On 8/17/16 the clover had filled in around it. I usually have clover growing and I dig some clover put to plant the rose. I will also have to move MA to a sunnier location. It is getting western exposure. I am happy to know that Pink Enchantment finally produced. I'm awaiting Eglantyne and Tranquility's awakening. Should I let EA, Tranquility, and Gertrude remain with octopus canes?

Totoro: Thank you for the info. on Kordes roses. Own-root Austin roses are stingy for me in 1st year too, like 3 to 4 blooms ... but they bloom lots in 2nd year.

Portia: I have alkaline clay, pH near 8, with 38 to 40" of rain, and 23" of snow, see below link for pics. of my clay-garden:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3958679/roses-and-plants-in-heavy-clay-ph-8-zone-5a-38-rain-and-23-snow?n=38

With regard to your question: " Should I let EA, Tranquility, and Gertrude remain with octopus canes?" Octopus cane result from too much nitrogen and calcium, and not enough potassium and phosphorus.

Potassium is for root-growth and blooming, and phosphorus is for branching. Many years ago when I put clover inside the pots of my 2 Double-Delight as own-roots, they became very tall (3 feet) but one-cane wonder, only 4 blooms.

In contrast, Double-Delight in my clay, fertilized with low nitrogen & high potassium & decent phosphorus branch well, and is a continuous bloomer, and shorter.

So clover (high in nitrogen) is best on short & wimpy roses that need the extra height. If clover is planted, it's good to include SOLUBLE potassium and phosphorus, which are less available in dense clay.

I would leave the octopus canes alone, and give it SOLUBLE high potassium to induce blooms.

• Yes, thank you for the diagnosis, Dr Rose:) I spread rock phosphate all over my garden last fall, and I planted lots of buckwheat this year, but not near those roses. I will certainly increase the potassium. I did throw some bananas in August. I wonder which plants, cover crops contribute potassium? I am not getting target info from my rose society:( They probably don't know this either? I am adding these notes to my iPhone notes so that I can have beautiful roses:) I am sure this is what is lacking.

I was able to smell Sundowner's wonderful fruity fragrance and the only water it got was rain water, so yes, it sounds like my soil is acid. I will go test it. Ray Archuletta mentioned the Woodson Laboratory : The Hayney Test in ME. Perhaps I'll have them test my soil?

Good idea to have your soil tested, if they test for levels of calcium and magnesium (besides pH, phosphorus, potassium, and organic matter). My alkaline clay is tested at pH 7.7 and exceedingly high in magnesium. High magnesium means I need to use gypsum (for alkaline clay), or lime (for acidic clay).

If your soil is high in calcium it will push down potassium, since calcium, nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus all compete for the same absorption in plants. Own-root Munstead Wood threw a 3 feet octopus cane in a dinky pot, after I gave it too much gypsum (calcium sulfate).

Yes, Calcium has a 2+ charge whereas K+, N3+? Along with P4+?. I plan to grow MW.

Portia: I have a hunch that 7-leaflets can take wetness & thus more disease-resistant than 5-leaflets. See link below:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4252064/how-to-fertilize-link?n=4

If you have time, would you please let me know if Princess Ann has leaves in set of 7 or more? Also if any of your Kordes roses have leaves in set of 7? Thank you.

Portia: thank you very much for those pics of healthy 7-leaflets .... much appreciated !! Princess Ann is a sure-buy for me.

All my roses with 7-leaves are clean & healthy, except for Jude the Obscure (7 leaves) which is wimpy as own-root, but the Jude-grafted-on-Dr.Huey at nearby rose park was the most clean & healthy among their thousand of roses.

All my 5-leaves roses are having blackspots now, they can't cope with wet rainy fall.

Interesting. I was pleased to see my Love & Peace has (7) and this is its 2nd yr. it's doing beautifully, esp since I cut a strange sick looking cane off this spring.

I'll be excited to see which bareroots DA releases spring 2017 in Pittsburgh. I had Charlotte. I bought in Dallas, but I was careless with it so now it composting. Graham Thomas another bare root took forever to bloom, but it finally did, but the leaves have yellow wormlike marks and it only has (5) leaves.

Regarding octopus canes, read guidance from Chris at New Flora (markets Kordes roses in the US) on pruning/pinching young roses to promote branching shrub shape.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/3984748/how-wide-does-poseidon-get-and-can-i-control-the-height-of-a-rose#17755703

It was very useful info. I did some mid summer hard pruning on Mme Anisette's octopus canes and it branched and the shape is bushier now. I left the octopus canes on EA because I saw some buds finally. I will definitely hard prune EA in early spring.

Good info. I'm still waiting for a response from Kordes. I told them that Dark Parfum has no strong fragrace. I'll use my rabbit manure in 2017. My Mme is just now gaining length. It is the one that had the brown part on the cane and I cut that cane so now the remaining heathy (twig) is lengthening.

Totoro: Thanks for the info. on pruning. Now it's too late to prune in cold-zone to prompt branching, but I did prune own-root Munstead Wood's 3-feet octopus cane really short early September & planted in the ground .... it gave more blooms, despite my almost killing it with acidic cracked-corn.

In 2011 I wrote on "Hard-pruning to promote health & branching", after I witnessed our worst winter which made all roses died to the crown, with the best spring flush in over a decade, with more blooms than leaves at rose park nearby. The exception are tiny roses like Sharifa Asma & the Dark Lady which are best left alone.

Portia: Thanks for the pic. of Melody Perfume, that's a very pretty color.

You mean Dark Desire for Dark Parfum? 1st year roses, esp. own-roots don't develop scent until 2nd and 3rd year.

Portia wrote: "Graham Thomas another bare root took forever to bloom, but it finally did, but the leaves have yellow wormlike marks and it only has (5) leaves."

Those yellow-zig-zag lines could be RMV (rose mosaic virus) ... harmless in most cases, but it can also mean severe-potassium-deficiency.

Potassium deficiency can mimic RMV. I induced potassium deficiency when I put tons of gypsum to break up my clay, and planted Gruss an Teplitz. Those "yellow wormlike marks" went away when I gave it sulfate of potash, plus it bloomed more. There's a scientific abstract from Pakistan on that, which I posted earlier this summer.

Oh I didn't know abt the scent. Oh potassium. I too am low on K+. I'm sure that's what it is. So we can surmise that GT needs more K+ than others

I ordered soluable K from Amazon today. How soon did your "yellow worm" appearance leave?

It took a few months before the "yellow lines" went away. Potassium mobility is a 3, it moves down slowly. Next spring your new leaves will be normal. It's OK to apply potassium & calcium in late fall, since those are for root-growth, and roots still grow until the ground freezes, which is early to mid-Dec. for my zone 5a.

If you have many octopus canes, your soil has plenty of calcium. But since my soil is VERY HIGH in magnesium, I need to apply calcium (gypsum) now. Last fall I didn't do that, and my canes kept breaking in spring-time, when the strong wind blew.

I have (2) doses 1/3C Mg+ this season. What are signs of Mg+ deficiecy? I'm happy that I can still give K+ w/ assurance. Poor Mary Rose has such weak necks. I'd like to learn color arrangement for my roses. I'm going to put Milano & Kardinal out in my East yard w/ the understanding that deer will eat some, but they're floribundas. I'm also getting Our Anniversary by Jalbert and I mentioned Pink Martini. I kinda want more HTs but you mentioned their having (5) leaves so perhaps I should tread w/ caution. I have Chrysler Imperial and some others. Sunflare was beautiful, but lacked scent.

Portia: If you have sticky & muddy soil then your soil has plenty of magnesium ... don't need Epsom salt. Magnesium is what makes any clay sticky, be it acidic clay, or alkaline clay. Magnesium def. is rare, and occurs only in sandy soil.

Giving Epsom salt makes the soil harder & more compact, which means less oxygen to roots & less potassium available, which means less blooming.

Re-post the info. from below thread:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4034324/questions-on-mineral-nutrient-deficiency-in-pots-and-ground-and-fertilizer?n=65

Magnesium is the most confusing deficiency, so I'll post some pics. It's very rare, occurs mostly in sandy soil or heavy rain leaching from pots. My clay soil is tested exceedingly high in magnesium.

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That is of course another awesome link from the "Dr". I have learned more here than I could ever hope to in my garden clubs. Much of our time is spent mulching the roses in our public garden. I recommended sheet mulching with cardboard and covering it with the wood mulch that they already use. Yes, there is an association of wood mulch with fungus. I like the clover, but for my garden I will have to find the right K+ balance:) My passion plant has grown immensely with all the nitrogen. This fall I planted turnips around the roses, not radish like I did last year. I planted radish near my Butterbowl Peony and I will have to give it potassium as well bc lots of foliage, and only (1) peony. Now I know and will keep a balance.

Portia: Thank you, but the actual medical doctor/surgeon in this forum is Totoro (Aileen) with a 2-year old son. Before I became a stay-home Mom, I was a computer-programmer. My B.S. is in computer science, with minor in chemistry, but I took all the-science classes: biochemistry, microbiology, pathophysiology.

My garden knowledge came from growing up in a 5-acres land in Michigan, where we raised our own chickens & corn, fruit trees, plus huge vegetable garden. Then I moved to Chicagoland, and now have a small suburban lot .. I grow tomato & roses & few fruits trees. I'm happy with my small lot, I remember my Mom spent ALL DAY in her large garden, except for the winter.

My dtr is a medical Dr and she knows less about nutrition than my mother who raised her❤️ Your love for science speaks volumes I'm SO grateful.

I was checking on how much sun Nahema needs, and found this Australian website with the below info:

http://www.allaboutroses.com.au/nahema-climbing-rose-of-such-incredible-beauty-and-versatility-with-a-fragrance-that-surpasses-all-expectations-of-how-strong-a-rose-fragrance-can-be/

"PRUNE – During Winter, 70% of the rose plant should be pruned and all old wood removed back to the crown and the bush pruned to shape.

During the flowering seasons, 25% of all flowering stems should be cut back after flowering to encourage strong re-growth.

MULCH – Particular attention to application of lucerne or pea straw directly around the root-zone of each rose will enhance the overall health of the rose."

*** From Straw: Planting zone of Australia is from zone 7 to zone 12. Such a drastic pruning of 70% rose bush and old-wood removed back to the crown!!

Lucerne straw is alfalfa hay .. yes, it works wonder to promote growth. I like it better than alfalfa meal (more acidic). Alfafa hay is really messy when fresh, so I always buy it early spring (cheap at $8 per huge bale) .. let it decay, then use it late fall to winter-protect roses.

The deer are eating my alfalfa:). I grow it for my rabbit. I'm looking forward to the arrival of my agribon. I'm going to make a low hoop house for my peas that deer are also eating:)

You raise rabbits as pets? Thanks for the tip on agribond: "Agribon® is a non-woven fabric cover, ultra-light and resistant to exposure to the environment; it allows light, water and air to pass through and is reusable." A hoop house is great idea.

I have lots of wild-rabbits in my garden .. they use to eat my roses, until I started a compost pile full of kitchen veggies, then my roses are safe.

Yesterday I went to our year end local ARS meeting. 1. We maintain the 2nd best Public rose garden next to Hershey here in PA. 2. We have few members. 3. With that in mind we need to sheet mulch with cardboard to cut down on the weeding so that we can spend our time learning about the roses and admiring them. 4. Our club wants to bring in a speaker from outside? This is insane. We have excellent representation within our club. One member with her husband has given her life for the rose, HTs, specifically. Who better to speak to us? Her or a corporate stranger who just "works for the company". That's a no brainer. Another member has spent his life with the rose and the monastery. Who better to speak to us? They are both excellent. We could start and oral tradition of the rose and our rose garden. We have SO much value already among us. Who better to address our group?

Yes, Strawchicago I grow clovers. The rabbits prefer clovers to my roses. I was going to use aluminum conduit, but that requires a bender. I have modified to PVC like Patrick-Youtube"OneYardRevolution" he's in Chicago and he's gone WAY beyond the basic low tunnel hoop. He has professional looking cold frames with large glass. Amazing! The deer survey our yards EVERY night. They ignore the tillage radish, but eat the few peas I've planted. I have a large bag of peas so I'll plant some for them and me. The roses I believe tell you when to stop pruning by the fact that they ball up and do not open. Kordes Perfecta has approx (5) balls that will not open. I dare not prune that rose. In November we are going to the rose garden to prune all the roses to waist length. This is their tradition so obviously it works. I will attend take my lopers and follow suit:)

Portia: Agree with you that members of your club best choose local members to speak, rather than outsiders !!

For my cold zone I prefer above the knee pruning, so rabbits and chipmunks don't eat my roses .. I hope for a warm winter so my roses can stay tall in spring.

I will look for that you-tube to see how that cold-frame looks like. Thanks for the info.

Your welcome. When will you prune your roses. I also suppose waist high is good. Shall I plan to prune the David Austins as well? Father also says Graham Thomas bicolored leaf sounds like a virus, but it won't kill the rose! I saw my first Purple Top on my turnip. Gosh was that exciting:). The leaves are so bitter. I'll have to search for a turnip green recipe.

I prune my roses before end of Nov. to waist length, then I prune them again in spring. I made collard-green smoothie last night, that was so bland blah & alkaline, needs some acid to perk it up. But Kale smoothie is tastier, esp. with a sweet fruit.

Keep me informed of when you prune them. We plan to prune Nov 16th bc we meet on Wednesdays. I ate a turnip from my garden today. I boiled all of it and put butter. It was delicious! I had no idea. I will definitely plant more of them:) I planted them just as a cover crop. Mansfield likes radish, but he did not like the turnips. I did not like them raw either. The small ones were definitely not as bitter. I will poor the turnip water out in my rose beds. I did not get to Lowe's today. I'll go tomorrow. Mom and I went to vote early at 7 am. I wore my blue gardening hat:) I've been watching the 628DirtRooster care for his bees. Today he took care of his father's hives bc his father recently fell and is ambulating on a cane:( i love YouTube. I am still enjoying the Urban Farmer and wanting to emulate him:)

Portia: Kudos to your Mom and you for voting early. The news media screwed up lots of people ... people thought that Hillary will win for sure so lots of women didn't vote, including me !! I was in a middle of making dinner when husband went to vote (he didn't vote for Trump). I can't leave food cooking on the stove !!

The news media should stop making predictions .. people get lazy and don't vote since they think such candidate will win for sure.

History repeats itself .. that was the case with Bush and Al Gore. The news was wrong back then too.

I voted last week via mail. It was so easy, I will always do it for the price of a stamp. At least I have that to hold onto.

Straw, why do you prune before winter instead of waiting until Spring? Won't it spur new growth? I've stopped dead-heading for that reason as I'd read that, but am sad not having cut flowers, especially when they are ruined by cold night temps.

In my zone 5a, it's safe to prune after mild frosts, and right before killing frost (end of Nov). I prune so I can root roses indoor, if the Mommy dies through the winter, at least I have the babies as back-up. Most of the roses I grow are hardy to zone 6b, and my zone is 5a, so there's always the chance that some won't make it.

Thank you. I will do that too since I want to root a couple that did really well this year. My friend also grows La Marne and Carefree Beauty and I thought I might try those as well. It's fun growing new ones. I hope I can baby those I rooted over the winter. There about the size of bands now.

Yes, Strawchicago My family was sad today too:) This would have been such a necessary precident:) I manually tore some outer balled leaves from Kordes Perfecta that was balled and it opened:) You (2) are more rose enthusiastic than I. I got the EMT metal conduit to cover my peas, and now I realize I have to draw a pattern and return the metal bender bc it is not sufficient for what I need. I got 6 mil plastic and agribon was delivered today) I made an inner circle core out of hardware fabric and put a metal drain on top. Hardware fabric is a real pain to work with:) Thank goodness I was wearing long pants, that metal fabric is SO though to work with. The aeration cores make a big difference in attracting BSFL and they help SO much in heating the pile. The Urban Farmer says to accept what you have planted now is as much as you can for the winter and to protect that with plastic. He is not in favor of agribon bc he says it allow the ground to freeze. That's true:)

Regarding politics, this forum shows how those of us from both sides are united in a common love for roses and a love for our country.

More unites us than divides us!

Indeed this is true and it is our American duty to rally behind our chosen president.