I have quite a few and never realized that they were dioecious. You'll get flowers with either (male or female depending on which sex you have), but I confess I've never noticed the flowers on any of mine. To get fruit, you'd need both, and the fruit would only be borne on the female trees, by fertilized flowers. The distinctive autumn smell comes from the leaves, so you'll have that regardless of which sex you select. I have them for the shape and the leaves and overall appearance. I have never really smelled 'the smell', even at Quarryhill Botanical Garden where they have a long allee of these trees (straight species).

Thanks! I looked up Quarryhill and realize it isn't far from me ... so maybe I'll make a visit!

Do you know what type of Katsura you have? Are they the Heronswood Globe?

I think that all are straight species. One came from Digging Dog and the other three from Sweet Lane in Cotati and my records all show just the species. Quarryhill's are fabulous (so is the whole garden). I'm speaking there on Oct 2 just fyi!

You can also get a shorter height by planting 'Pendulum'. Also 'Herons-wood Globe' hasn't existed long enough for anyone to know its ultimate dimensions. Plus if it is being replicated by grafting onto seedlings of normal vigor then those combinations might grow more robustly than the original seedling. This happens rather often with grafted conifers, anyway.

Whereas 'Pendulum' is self limiting because the new branches keep drooping toward the ground. One I used to have here grew to become shaped like a table. Another depiction that has been used for forms developed by this type is "leaning haystack".

I have a 'Pendulum', too, which I got at Western Hills. Their mature 'Pendulum' is glorious. Catherine that's another wonderful garden in Sonoma County, if you haven't been there it is worth a visit.

The original Heronswood Globe from the old Heronswood Nursery in WA state was at least 25' tall (and as wide) when it was removed about 10 years ago. And one that I gave to friend a number of years ago is approaching that size. It may be more compact than the straight species but it is not exactly a "dwarf".

I wouldn't worry about distinguishing between male or female plants. The flowers are inconspicuous - it is really the form of the tree and its foliage (both coloring and fall scent when the leaves abscise) that is the primary attraction.

I am not familiar with katsura. I know of some other trees, although no tree just gets tired and feels the need to stop growing at 20ft. Is there any reason for the height limitation? Power lines? here are some suggestions:

magnolia soulagnea

cornus kousa 'wolf eyes'

crepe myrtle 'tonto' (if it is hardy)

crepe myrtle 'best red' (if it is hardy)

acer palmatum 'bloodgood'

cercis canadensis 'floating clouds'

cotinus obovatus

Ummmm....Logan....she is in the SF Bay Area. Those trees are nothing like katsura and many are not suitable for here.

Most of those will grow there, but most of them will also not stay below 20 ft.

Cercis canadensis 'Floating Clouds' is going to fight for its life here and will never see 20'. Lag. 'Tonto' is a dwarf. Most of the rest thrive onhumid summer air which we don't have.

The San Francisco Botanic Garden has Acer palmatum and Cornus kousa listings going down the page. And deciduous magnolias are one of their feature collections - in fact they claim it is of exceptional size. All the other genera Logan suggested are also represented there, although not necessarily by the same species or cultivars.

Two of their other collections consist of plants adapted to cloudy conditions. Just how far you are from the ocean in the Bay Area is critical to what can be grown. This place in Sebastopol specializes in rhododendrons and azaleas, magnolias etc. with multiple kinds of Kousa and Japanese maples being offered, as well as eastern red-bud - it is just like the rhododendron focused nurseries up here that were situated in settings resembling English woodland gardens, except there is a full line of tender rhododendrons and some companion plants we usually can't manage this far north.

http://www.sonomahort.com/index.htm

Hell, for that matter Quarryhill is a collection of Chinese mountain plants - talk about something wanting constant fog, rain and drip during the growing season (except for those from some of the drier areas). I've been to a talk here about plant collecting in China where one of the participants in the particular trip being featured was in the audience, mentioned when called upon to comment that this was the first time he had been there when it did not rain the entire time he was there. (And he has been to China multiple times).

Yes Ron but unless you are in SF or Berkeley, you have extremely dry air in summer and those kinds of trees crisp like they have been blowtorched. On another post the term 'tatter resistance' was used and they would all fail (by about July 1). SFBG is fogged in all summer and overhead waters with enormous sprinklers. Sonoma Hort is in a microclimate under a canopy of Redwoods and they overhead water. Quarryhill overhead waters and until the canopy grew and created a microclimate, their magnolias (and many of their other plants) struggled mightily. They also have a stream and a pond and plant accordingly. I've had long conversations with the Director about it. The average homeowner around here does not do well with those trees and they underperform on drip irrigation. Whether you can grow something or whether it actually looks attractive are two different things. Even Cercidiphyllum will have a hissy fit in drought and drop its leaves. So it's not just how far you are from the ocean but how you irrigate, and most homeowners here can't overhead water their gardens twice a week the way the botanical gardens do. Regulations - or water rates - simply don't allow it.

Yes katsura is another example of a monsoon climate species. We have to water these up here to get optimum results also. Lots of plants will grow in hot or dry areas if watered enough. There is a difference between plants growing well if liberally irrigated in the conventional way and them not being able to grow in an area at all, whether watered consistently or not.

Yeah but who would want to grow a tree that looks awful all the time? I just got back from Seattle and am taking out or moving all of my Japanese maples that are in full sun, after seeing them up there looking gorgeous in September. 'Tobiosho' and 'Seiryu' can take the sun here - the rest look like they have been set on fire. 'Fire glow' was the first to go - more like 'Fire bombed'. Drip irrigation cannot produce enough water to keep these trees looking decent, much less attractive. We don't have the water.

Thanks for all the discussion, but the real issue is this. I love my birch tree, but it lost all its leaves on one side and was pushed to an angle because the neighbors would not remove their huge privet hedge. I've tried to let the birch leaf out; got pruning instructions about the other side, but was told it would probably never look right and it doesn't. It is "sparse" and not at all straight. However, I LOVE the gentle foliage - the way it dances in the wind and creates beautiful shadows on the ground - lovely shade. I live in MILL VALLEY, CA just two towns north of SF. A landscape architect who is doing other work at my house said it needs to be replaced and sadly, I agree. However, I know that Birch is a water hog, and the Magnolias and Japanese Maples he suggested are just too dense to give me that lovely shadow and leaf dance. So ... he suggested Katsura, but when I looked it up, they get really big and my lot is small. SO, ideas? Is Katsura the wrong tree? Should I get a new birch? Any recommendations?

Another birch might fit your desires best. The katsura, if happy, is lovely but dense. Birch generally don't thrive around here but in MV you are in one of the better spots. Check out the various cultivars and see what you like. Some have purple leaves!

Hi i'm the same as form and foliage - I don't understand why sometimes it logs me in as one and other times the other - anyway, also meant to say that my friends and I have been looking for that light shade/dancing leaves tree. And it's hard to find around here. I use Parkinsonia (generally 'Desert Museum') for really light foliage but that clearly won't work for you. You could do some other trees and prune them regularly (you have great aesthetic pruners down there) but that means lifetime maintnenance. Another idea if you can deal with a small tree is Cercidiphyllum j. 'Red Fox' which is dwarf and columnar (Cerdiciphyllum is katsura). It has maroon leaves and is lovely but may be too stiff for you. Smaller leaves than the species. I'm coming back to birch again.

Thanks for all of your help. Unfortunately, another problem with my birch was that it was too tall and obstructs a good view. I'm really looking for something smaller as well. Maybe I have to give up on the dappled shade look. The landscape architect immediately has gone to Japanese Maples and Magnolias. OK, I guess. I'll miss that light dappled shade, but if you have been looking and can't find it, then I'm going to believe that sometimes things just aren't possible. Small tree with fine leaf ...maybe can't have it. Online it says Red Fox gets to 40'. Its why I began with asking about Heronswood Globe, which is supposed to be shorter. What are you speaking about on Oct. 2?

If it truly gets to 40' it will be well after I am dead and buried! Japanese maple cultivars, especially if regularly pruned, are worth checking out. They'll need water, but you're only talking one tree. Birches, too, can be pruned. The Aesthetic Pruners Assn has a good representation in Marin - they even have a guild. They are having a tour in Marin Oct 2 - you might want to check that out. Magnolias make no sense to me - very large leaves, generally grown for flowers, not tree shape or leaves. Maybe instead of a tree consider a large restio like Cannamois. Do you know Greenjeans Nursery? He often has interesting plants. Also Sloat in Kentfield. Lots of great nurseries up here in Sonoma, too.

THANKS MUCH! Just signed up for the event on Oct 2 --- and the first garden includes a pruned birch!

Very interesting discussion!

The Magnolia obovata at Quarryhill looked in quite excellent health to me and was the most impressive I've seen; but I was there in April and the plant was in fairly heavy shade. I was surprised they didn't have more large deciduous Magnolias of the Gresham/campbellii/sargentiana etc. ilk. Considering the whole garden is - and this isn't something they would deny - going about the square peg in round hole exercise of growing Asian summer monsoon plants in a summer dry Mediterranean climate* - they've done a pretty darn good job. In fact I think I remarked on this in another post where I reviewed the garden. At least in April, after a not too dry winter, there was a remarkable sense of being transported away from the Bay Area. So different was the feel evoked by the flora within the garden gates. It was like being in the Asian Valley of the National Arboretum. As long as you ignored the distant redwood or douglas fir covered hills and valleys with wine vineyards LOL.

* though credit must be given to Sonoma Hort. for pulling the same thing off. Their microclimate, however, being closer to the Pacific, is somewhat more salubrious. But likewise, their garden seems a bit like an oasis compared to the surrounding "typical" Sonoma county landscaping of more sclerophyllous or resinous looking plants. A little touch of Yunnan, or Caerhays! They have some mature big leaf rhodies. If there are any at Quarryhill, I missed them.

Catherine that's great! On these tours they typically have the Aesthetic Pruner who has cared for the garden on hand to answer questions, so you should seek him/her out and find out the story about the birch but also ask if they've done other birches or even see if they have suggestions for you. Local advice is often the best!

David yes Quarryhill is amazing. One of my haunts - it's not far from me. Two of my friends were the first docents there and I know the Director well. It is just amazing to wander around there and realize that everything is less than 25 years old and seed grown. It is a bit tattered at this point in the year but it is lovely there in autumn as there are so many trees and shrubs that turn color. No big leaf rhodies at QH - there rhododendron collection is small, actually. Maybe another collecting trip is in order!

I'd like to see a picture of that pruned birch. They're not easy to prune well. Usually I see a hack job.

Mike

Mike,

So funny you mentioned the pruning difficulties of birches. I have a B. albo-sinensis that is doing surprisingly well. They are very uncommon on the east coast. One reason might be that it is grafted. Anyhow, the thing is driving me crazy! Every couple years for the past 4 years, I've pruned a low branch, and it insists on creating another one! (these are definitely above the graft union) However as with my observation about various other cuttings grown plants like Sekkan Sugi and some holly cultivars, I think it is slowly re-establishing apical dominance. And will cease the low branch nonsense in the next 2-3 years. I hope! It seems like side cutting grown plants want to produce waterspouts for several years.

The aesthetic pruners are masters. It is amazing what they can do. They have a certification, some are also ISA arborists, some bonsai practitioners, others come directly to the craft. I'm a member and my garden is a demonstration site for one of their guilds. They come twice a year and prune - they get practice, I get pruning!

Birches don't grow over pruning cuts well, are therefore best left alone. Also with trees such as these grown for bark effects it is desirable to have as much bark present as possible - cutting branches off reduces the bark display.

Star magnolia produces small leaves and flowers, maybe one like that is what he had in mind. Another, with similarly sized and shaped flowers but less dense growing, evergreen kind is Magnolia laevifolia (Michelia yunnanensis). Selections made of this have tended to be shrubby but Inspiration TM forms a leader, has been shooting right up at my place (I water it frequently).

There are also Japanese maples that generate a lighter visual effect, due to them having small or additionally divided leaves.

A small birch that also has the same almost vaporous aspect as those Japanese maples that have finely cut leaves is 'Trost Dwarf'.

Otherwise if you go to display gardens and independent nurseries in your area something may jump out at you. You probably have a pretty good number of different options, actually.

Embo, I've read that birches - if they must be pruned and it must - should be pruned in late fall so that the sap doesn't bleed too much out of the wound. Which is what I've done. 4 years ago it was probably a 1" caliper branch, 2 years later a 1.5" caliper branch, now it will have to be a 2" caliper branch! But so far, my pruning has not hurt it, as it is apparently growing well. But, it keeps forming waterspouts.

Actually this article says early fall:

http://www.gardeningknowhow.com/ornamental/trees/birch/cutting-back-birch-trees.htm

So tomorrow it is! That branch is driving me crazy every time I'm in that part of the garden. It actually grew faster than the main branch this year. Very annoying!

The winter silhouette of male and female Katsuras look different, which is when I realized that there were male and female trees. Female is on the left with the fruit, male on the right with bare branches.

Thanks for sharing! Do you like one better than the other? If so, why? I'd think fruit would be a disadvantage - messier - but in your photo, the female looks "prettier". Again, I'm most interested because I was told they had a fluttery fine leaf and I could get dappled shade. Your experience? I notice both yours are tall -- I'd be looking into a dwarf plant if one exists. Thanks again.

The 'mess' is negligible. The advantage is seedlings.

I grow the variety magnificum. It's taller with larger leaves.

Actually Cercidiphyllum magnificum is smaller growing than C. japonicum.

They aren't mine - they grow on the campus where I work. As you can see the "fruit" is tiny and it's a dry capsule I believe, so doesn't seem to create any visible mess, just changes the look of the bare branches in winter. Until I took a good look at them one day when they were leafless, they were indistinguishable.

In fall the color and scent are lovely, and they are attractive trees but not spectacular the rest of the year. I am more fond of the weeping forms and would choose one of them for my own yard. I prefer the clean look of the males, but if you prefer the female winter look, check to see if any of the smaller forms are female. I don't think it should be as important as the size and form, however.

Thanks - you have been very helpful.

Thank you for the correction, Embothrium. :-)

NHBabs, your campus male & female show the same form as my Katsura. Multiple trunks, but on mine they emerge from the
main trunk at near-right angles & quickly turn upward, so the forks themselves are
structurally pretty good (no included bark). Mine after 11 yrs hasn't shown any trace of
flowers. Never bothered by dryness being so near the stream: